User:Hongkyongnae

Hong Kyongnae
{| align=right id=toc style="float: right; clear: right; margin-left: 20px; margin-top: 10px; border: 2px solid #aaaaaa; -moz-border-radius-topleft: 8px; -moz-border-radius-topright: 8px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft: 10px; -moz-border-radius-bottomright: 8px; padding: 0; background: #f9f9f9;" Hong Kyongnae



hongkyongnae was a rebel leader of a peasant rebellion from 1811 to 1812 in the Joseon dynasty. (korea)

hongkyongnae is also an occasional editor in wikipedia...obviously.

hongkyongnae has a long-standing interest in national identity, especially as it is lived on the korean peninsula.

hongkyongnae seems to loath pronouns.

Just say no to NPOV
In case anyone else out there is inclined to waste time reading this page AND sometimes entertains questions and doubts about the concept of NPOV, which underlies many of the assumptions used by many wikipedians, here are some links to debates about NPOV and Wikipedia.

1. "In the continuing debate on the merits & problems of Wikipedia, David Shariatmadari writes in openDemocracy of a group project to fix the imbalance in its coverage reflecting "the concerns of your average white, male, 'technically inclined', developed world 20-40 year old": "Wikiproject: Countering Systemic Bias" http:// *** tinyurl.com/n9wu3 (Note: I added "***" since tinyurl is on Wiki-spam list. Sorry.)

2. "Robert McHenry, former editor-in-chief of Encyclopedia Britannica, counters that the real problem with Wikipedia is that it lacks planning & "a clear vision of what the goal is: http:// *** tinyurl.com/lnlef" (Note: I added "***" since tinyurl is on Wiki-spam list. Sorry.)

3. "Jaron Lanier writes critically of online collectivism in general & Wikipedia in particular in "Digital Maoism: The Hazards of the New Online Collectivism" ,

4. "This triggered responses from various renowned digerati including Esther Dyson & Howard Rheingold "

5. "Robert Y. Eng, Prof. of History/Dept. Chair, Univ. of Redlands Annotated Directory of Net Resources on E & SE Asia: "

6. Roy Rosenzweig, "Can History be Open Source? Wikipedia and the Future of the Past" http://chnm.gmu.edu/resources/essays/d/42 (This article was originally published in The Journal of American History Volume 93, Number 1 (June, 2006): 117-46.

My point with all this is to simply introduce a process of discussion and debate that would be impossible to raise were we only to think within the assumptions of NPOV. Such discussions are meant to make Wikipedia a more informed, self-conscious, and intelligent area. The members of Wikipedia's production of knowledge are all members of specific cultures, geographic locations, historical times, genders, class, and race. All these, and more, affect the knowledge being produced in Wikipedia, and we would all be better of to recognize these affects rather than hiding them by waving the false flag of NPOV.

NO NPOV
Wikipedia and many of its members contend that a neutral point of view (NPOV) is both desireable and possible. This contention guides most of the contributors and writers in Wikipedia. But not everyone currently participating in Wikipedia agrees with these fundamental assumptions.

For many people, the concept of NPOV is impossible and undesirable. The reasons underlying their position are many and varied. For some, NPOV is a myth that deludes both writers and readers. No NPOV thinkers may argue that it is better to state a point of view and be responsible for it rather than seeking to gain some sort of "objective" consensus which is destined to change later on. As an example, it has been argued that beauty is neither universal nor objective. Therefore, trying to impose, or at least create, a unified meaning for beauty is a hopeless task. Beauty does not derive from the object, but from the viewer. Thus, the number interpretations on what is beautiful depends on the number of viewers. To hold to the view that a "neutral" standard for beauty exists is seen as mistaken, and, such a standard would possibily inhibit the many voices and definitions that fall outside such a standard.

Certain issues (justice, beauty, criminality, among many others), states No NPOV, need direct reference to individual and group contexts. Markers such as national identity, gender, age, geography, religion, etc. mean "neutrality" is never more than a localized, temporary consensus, and is not a universal and permanent form of knowlege. Meaning does not derive from an object, meaning is subjectively assigned to objects by people.

As stated by John Berger in Ways of Seeing, "out of true with the present…assumptions obscure the past. They mystify rather than clarify. The past is never there, waiting to be discovered, to be recognized for exactly what it is." The No NPOV view is that history is, however, waiting to be constructed for what people want it to be.

=No NPOV and Wikipedia= The No NPOV arguments raise direct concerns for the level and style of discourse and definition of "what is acceptable" with Wikipedia. For Wikipedians, and other people, who contend that people who adhere to No NPOV should think about removing themselves from Wikipedia since they do not share its "highest ideal," a contradiction appears. Wikipedia seems to justify its existance partly through the argument that a person need to agree any group's "highest ideal" inorder to speak. Wikipedians have often stated that the purpose of Wikipedia is to invite discussions. The asking for the departure of No NPOV adherents directly undermines that ideal.

=Inherent problems in arriving at a NPOV= NPOV, takes as one of its premises that "neutral" means no side of an argument is omitted and all may be included. No NPOV questions such a stand by asking questions such as these: Who is to say when all arguments have been included? And if even one argument is excluded, is it still NPOV? How is everyone to decide what is to be included and what is to be excluded? Is not the very act of deciding the criteria for inclusion/exclusion "non-neutral"? How does a group go aboout deciding whether "neutrality" has been achieved and once achieved would future changes risk be "un-neutral"?? Are such decisions made using a simple majority? What if the majority states one article is NPOV one day, but either the group in the majority or the views of the same majority, shift?

For example, if the majority of a population were to democratically decide that the earth is flat, are "the world is round" arguments to be excluded since they are considered to be far fetched?

NPOV also seems to contend that the goal of each article is not to reflect a particular point of view on the topic, but to include various facts and opinions without showing bias towards or against any of them. No NPOV questions whether this is always possible. When mutually exclusive views are housed within the same "argument" the argument runs the risk of becoming self-contraditory. Or, the article may turn into little more than a collection of mutually contradicting assertions that generate more confusion than it does understanding.

As one example, some historians contend that on June 25, 1950, North Korean armed forces invaded South Korea, thereby begining between two separate nations a war intended to spread global communism. Yet, other historians (especially those in North Korea) may argue that the June 25, 1950 was an only extension of conflicts that had been going on for years earlier, that the war was a civil war between two domestic rivals in the same nation, and that UN forces were the foreign invaders who illegally sent troops into the Korean peninsula.

One example that already exists in Wikipedia is the discussion page for Dokdo. How is a single, coherent argument to emerge from there?

When multiple mutually-exclusive points of view are housed within the same article and no "resolution" is allowed, says the No NPOV, then readers may very well be unable to acheive an understanding of the issues involved.

Moreover, No NPOV argues that the real process in Wikipedia is not simply about inclusion. It is equally (or more) about exclusion. No NPOV states this so as to bring attention to an important part of the process of debate within Wikipedia and to help foster even more careful discussions among members. No NPOV fully supports open debate and the exchange of views so as to enable members to participate, learn, teach, and change. Stated simply, No NPOV is less concerned with answers than it is with the process of questioning. Hongkyongnae 19:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)