User:HuskyHuskie/Relocated Sports Franchises

NBA

 * Single article teams
 * Atlanta Hawks
 * Los Angeles Lakers
 * Detroit Pistons
 * Golden State Warriors
 * Washington Wizards
 * Houston Rockets
 * Brooklyn Nets
 * Utah Jazz
 * Multiple article teams--one article per city
 * Philadelphia 76ers
 * San Antonio Spurs
 * Memphis Grizzlies
 * Seattle SuperSonics--while there are two articles (one each for the SSS and the OKCT), this is a very special case, given the condition that the NBA put on the team's move (the "shared history" proviso)
 * Inconsistent usage--see explanation
 * Sacramento Kings; while the team's time in Cincinnati has a separate article, its time in KC and Sacremento are in the same article--simply inconsistent.
 * Los Angeles Clippers; like the Kings, is inconsistent, with a separate article for the team's time in Buffalo, but with teams' time in San Diego and Los Angeles together in one article.

NFL

 * Single article teams


 * Multiple article teams--one article per city


 * Inconsistent usage--see explanation

MLB

 * Single article teams


 * Multiple article teams--one article per city


 * Inconsistent usage--see explanation

NHL

 * Single article teams


 * Multiple article teams--one article per city


 * Inconsistent usage--see explanation

Comments
First of all, let me plead ignorance of the customs on our Wikipedia sports pages. This is certainly not my territory. But I must admit, I am baffled by something. I was reading about Kobe Bryant, specifically to learn about how he got drafted. Found out that he was drafted by the Charlotte Hornets. What surprised me was that there was an extant article specifically on the Charlotte Hornets. And it says that that Hornets team is "defunct". I was baffled, as I thought they had moved to New Orleans. So I guess my question is, why is New Orleans Hornets a separate article from Charlotte Hornets? Aren't they the same franchise? I mean, when I type in Milwaukee Braves, I am automatically redirected to Atlanta Braves, and I get all their history in Boston and Milwaukee at that article. When I type in Minneapolis Lakers, I am automatically redirected to Los Angeles Lakers, and I get their Minnesota history at that article. Oh, I know there are exceptions to this rule; I can't expect to type in Washington Senators and go straight to Texas Rangers, because there has been more than one Senators franchise in DC, and I know that I can't expect to get the early history of Baltimore's NFL team because of the unique circumstances of that deal, but is there anything special going on with the Hornets like that? I just don't know why they aren't one and the same article. HuskyHuskie (talk) 15:04, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I also take note of the fact that the following articles:


 * List of New Orleans Hornets seasons
 * New Orleans Hornets all-time roster
 * New Orleans Hornets draft history
 * List of New Orleans Hornets head coaches


 * are all comprehensive, covering team history both in Charlotte and New Orleans. The need for a merge is obvious to me, and it's been over three months with no one objecting.HuskyHuskie (talk) 22:45, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Post merge comments

 * Hmm Had I noticed this discussion I would have objected. Standards have been swinging lately to have teams that move have separate articles. There are exceptions, as you have noted the baseball project had been keeping them together, but lately they have started to be split apart. The biggest reason for difference in most cases is teams that moved before there was a Wikipedia and teams that moved after there was a Wikipedia. Every National Hockey League team for example has separate articles for teams that have moved. The basketball project has started to split articles see the Vancouver Grizzlies and the Seattle Supersonics. The baseball project has begrudgingly began to split its articles Montreal Expos and Washington Nationals. But they have also done things like redirect the name to specific history pages of the franchise during that time. The NFL I haven't looked into since they haven't had a lot of moves in recent years. But generally WP:SUMMARYSTYLE does indicate that eventually these pages should be split into individual pages. Of course some do disagree with that. I should note that the Charlotte Hornets team was defunct but the franchise was active. The two are often treated to mean the same thing but they are different. It is most likely where your confusion came from. In general people typing in Charlotte Hornets are not looking for information on the New Orleans Hornets. So making them go to a tangentially-related page with a lot of information not relevant to what they are looking for can cause equal or more confusion. In the end more information can be presented to the reader when split into two pages than being on a single page. -DJSasso (talk) 16:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you missed my post. I certainly hope you don't think I acted hastily.  Now I will say that I'm glad you came here, because I have been trying to understand why these would be split.  Reading through your explanation (not that I saying it's a comprehensive effort) you note:


 * The biggest reason for difference in most cases is teams that moved before there was a Wikipedia and teams that moved after there was a Wikipedia.


 * In my view this is a completely unacceptable "biggest reason" or reason at all for separating the articles. It reeks of WP:RECENTISM, and, even worse, injects a self-referential attitude into the articles. The decision to create a particular article should have  nothing  to do with when Wikipedia was created.   That would be akin to saying that we should have one article that comprehensively covers all 27 constitutional amendments that were ratified before Wikipedia's creation in 2001, but any amendments passed afterwards will each get their own article.


 * Your point about the team and the franchise being separate entities is valid, but rarely applicable, as in most cases the two are kept together. In the NFL, only once has a team's records not followed the franchise to the new city (Cleveland Browns).  In such a case, then of course the moving franchise needs its own article.  But that's not what happened here.  Every team record set in Charlotte is subject to being broken in New Orleans.  Why?  Because they are the same team.  If I recall correctly, Chris Johnson, of the Tennessee Titans, just broke a team rushing record, one that dated to a player who wore the uniform of the Houston Oilers.  Separating these can only cause greater confusion.


 * Of course, the powers that be have only confused things worse by resurrecting names of teams that have moved on (such as the multiple incarnations of the Washington Senators). And if, as rumor has it, the Hornets name gets moved back to Charlotte and placed on the current Bobcats, that will make things extremely murky.  But unnecessarily creating extra articles will only multiply that confusion, in my opinion. HuskyHuskie (talk) 16:26, 25 December 2012 (UTC)


 * DJSasso, I've finally read WP:SUMMARYSTYLE, and I find no support for your argument there. While it obviously does speak of splitting articles, it hardly dictates anything that pertains to sports teams relocating.  Rather, it states,
 * The length of a given Wikipedia article tends to grow as people add information to it. This does not go on forever: very long articles would cause problems and should be split.
 * So the issue that determines whether or not to split is length, not the topic. Yes, once the article is so long that it needs to be split, then a logical place to split it is determined by topic (such as when a sports team changes to another city), but the "additional topic" of moving to another city does not require or even suggest a need to split the article.   Now should the Hornets' article be split?  The question that WP:SUMMARYSTYLE says must be asked is this:  Is the article too long?  Well, here's how I see it:  If New York Yankees, at approximately 10,000 words, does not need to be split, then New Orleans Hornets, with less than half as many words, doesn't need to be split, either.


 * One last thing. You state above that, In general people typing in Charlotte Hornets are not looking for information on the New Orleans Hornets.  On what basis do you make that statement?  I disagree with that completely--if I want information on the team, I want all the information on team I can get, especially team history across all time.  For me, looking for information on the Charlotte Hornets is no different than looking for information on the New Orleans Hornets, because they are the same team. HuskyHuskie (talk) 07:19, 26 December 2012 (UTC)


 * The first thing I note is most teams' articles do not follow the standard that you believe is the norm. And if you think that things are trending that way, I would simply that this is actually an indication of WP:RECENTISM; possibly younger readers, with a less developed sense of history, who are perhaps not fully cognizant of the fact that franchise relocation has been going on for over 100 years, and that creating separate articles for each stop of a team's journey will actually yield greater, not lesser, confusion.  Imagine what confusion would be wrought by a standard practice of multiple articles in the case of the Oakland Raiders  [1960-1981 in Oakland, 1982-1994 in Los Angeles, 1995-present back in Oakland.]  Tell me, would you make that two articles or three?