User:I enjoy sandwiches/science

One thing I don't think Kahn is getting enough credit for is that he was constantly trying to seek a middle ground, a compromise. Yes, he was sloppy and a raconteur, but that seems to just be his style. This debate, like so many in modern culture, has become militarized. The fight is good in that it leads us to question a lot of our dogma, but something is getting lost in the discord. Kahn came in looking for discussion, Kressler came in looking to brawl, and Rogan obligingly announced the fight.

As I think this video illustrates, the live debate format is a difficult one to get to the real truth of things and not the right one for a discussion this nuanced. When someone brings up a point and you don't have the details of the study in front of you, you'll need a second to look at them in detail (let alone give them Avi's level of intense scrutiny). This isn't The Great Debaters, let's remember that we're looking for the truth, even if that comes at the expense of being "right".

The original would have worked better as a series of video responses, with time to prepare between each and a 5 minute time limit to respond each time. In Rogan's studio it became too fast based, here it became too drawn out (14 hours is quite a marathon, kudos to you both). Similar to arbitration getting to a better outcome than courtroom antics, we have to be patient and precise because our lives, literally, are at stake. Your Monday morning quarterbacking certainly is invaluable.

Some questions and comments for Dr. Avi (or anyone else): -4:09:30 he indicated the low carb diets were high in saturated fat in the meta analysis that he discussed. Although it was a topic change but but could you please address that aspect of the study? Do high carb diets that are low in saturated fat have the same impact on biomarkers as long as total caloric intake is equal? -3:49:45 Dr. Kahn references a study about sugar having less impact than fat on heart disease. You guys seemed to both accept this at face value. Do you know where this is published? -6:43:45 - The concept Kresser is referring to his the carbohydrate-insulin hypothesis by Taubes and Ludwig (Hall 2017, Belluz 2018), which has since been debunked (Schwartz 2017). -Much of the effect may come down to the relative impact of sugar vs fat, and the impact of processed/red meat vs non-processed/white meat, which would probably divide a lot of these studies more accurately than animal vs veg. The epidemiology is severely under-tiered. Are you aware of studies that controlled for these factors as well?
 * A major division of regulatory guidelines splits meat into red/processed meat and white meat. It does not appear the SDA study did this. It seems several more recent meta analyses have, and appear to have found reduced or absent risk with unprocessed red meat and white meat. What are your thoughts about this?
 * I agree with your criticism of the SDA study to the general population instead of SDAs that eat meat (which is a population that would be presumably hard to recruit). Numerically they attempted to correct for this. Do you know of any cross sectional/cohorts or RCTs that did control for lifestyle factors and found similar results, even if it was a secondary finding? Did the study on Mormon fasting do this?
 * Could you please respond to Dr. Masterjohn's critique of the podcast?
 * How would you consider David Feldman's drop experiment in light of Hegsted/Keys? Do his results go against the equation?
 * The Hegstedt equation I am familiar with is Δ Cholesterol (mg/dl) = 2.16ΔS − 1.65ΔP + 0.068ΔC mg/day, but you list 1.47 - 1.41e^-(0.00151x). Are these the same equation expressed differently? How is the natural logarithm expressed in the first? Please help with this 'high school geometry'. 🤓

Also you forgot the most important time stamps: - 13:30 Joe looks at Dr. Avi through the split-screen and puts him in line. That man can see the future. 👽 🤖 -6:49:30 "Isn't there something weird about vegan's fighting so hard against animal testing, but then relying so much on mouse data?" - best line of the entire 8 hours

Thank you for helping to elevate the level of discussion.