User:Ipigott/Archive 21

Archive 1: January 2007 to January 2010, Archive 2: January 2010 to January 2011, Archive 3: January 2011 to June 2011, Archive 4: June 2011 to November 2011, Archive 5: December 2011 to August 2012, Archive 6: September 2012 to December 2012, Archive 7: December 2012 to May 2013, Archive 8: June 2013 to November 2013, Archive 9: November 2013 to August 2014, Archive 10: September 2014 to February 2015, Archive 11:March 2015 to August 2015, Archive 12: March 2015 to August 2015, Archive 13: September 2015 to May 2016, Archive 14: June 2016 to December 2016, Archive 15: January 2017 to August 2017, Archive 16: September 2017 to March 2018, Archive 17: April 2018 to September 2018, Archive 18: October 2018 to August 2019, Archive 19: September 2019 to January 2020, Archive 20: February 2020 to June 2020

Edith L. Williams
Boy did it take days and lots of queries to get together enough sources to write this. It was definitely a start and stop process. If you have the chance, it could do with a copy edit, but if you are too busy, no worries. Thank you so much. SusunW (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Days and days may seem an eternity to you but some editors work for years on an article to get it up to the same level of quality. Interesting to see the strange implications of the old Danish constitution. Not much to be edited on this one but an interesting case which needed to be documented. I see you have added lots of Virgin Islanders to the redlist. Maybe I should look more carefully at some of them.--Ipigott (talk) 09:21, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I could not work years on an article. I want the story told. I always gather sources before I start. This was nerve wracking, as I didn't and was unsure if I was going to get them. Resource exchange found one, but then I spent a week messaging with the University of Florida to get the other. I honestly had no idea if they would ever come through with it, but they did, yesterday! The picture was a complete bonus. The fascinating thing about the USVI list is that almost all of those women lived to be right at 100. Quality of life? Good genes? SusunW (talk) 13:30, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, those long lives are impressive. There seem to be several recent centenarians too. Some of the reasons given for Dominica may well apply. I know you always try to be as comprehensive as possible with your biographies but I was wondering whether we should start with a series of shorter articles which could be expanded later. Sources like this give a pretty good overview which would serve to put people on the map. Unfortunately, at the moment I am bogged down on Danish artists but I could take a new look at the USVS in a few days. Perhaps you intend to cover a few more yourself?--Ipigott (talk) 14:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I'll probably circle back around, but I have been working my way through the Oxford dictionary of Afro-Caribbeans for a couple of years. So many missing women and it is behind a paywall, so as long as I am able to have access, I want to extract as many as I can. It got cancelled this year and I literally had to beg to get access back. The USVI women are all in free sources, so that makes them easier for anyone to create. SusunW (talk) 14:37, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

A question
How is the percentage of English Wikipedia's biographies that are about women calculated? I have wondered, but I didn't want to raise the question in the forum. I noticed that you posted the latest update, so I thought I would ask you directly. I assume that the figure might be based on use of one or more of the women-related Wiki Projects (Women, Women's History, etc.) on the talk page, but that's just a guess. I'm just curious. Eddie Blick (talk) 01:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your interest in the stats. They are actually based on information from Wikidata which receives "dumps" of statistical info from Wikipedia about twice a month. The figures are then included in WHGI's Gender by Wikipedia language section. Look for "All time" towards the bottom. If you place the cursor over English in the graphic, you will see figures for "Total biographies" and "Total female biographies" for the English version of Wikipedia, with the resulting percentage of "Female biographies". You might find it useful to see how these figures are displayed at Denelez. See the section on Gender Gap by Wikimedia project. Hope this helps and let me know if I can help with any more background info.--Ipigott (talk) 08:41, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I appreciate that feedback, and I will take a look at the pages that you linked. Thanks! Eddie Blick (talk) 15:07, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Inger Lut Debois moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Inger Lut Debois, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page.  Wiki Macaroons Cinnamon? 10:11, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Hi there, WikiMacaroons, and thanks for taking an interest in my articles. I am nevertheless very surprised you should have moved this article to draft space just one minute after I created it, before I had time to expand it further. Perhaps your knowledge of Danish or your familiarity with Danish sources is not sufficient for you to assess their value but I can assure you that Weissbach is one of the most highly respected sources on Danish artists and as such is a very solid reference. I will now continue to work on the article and move it back to mainspace later today. Happy editing!--Ipigott (talk) 10:36, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I see that you've tried to repair the damage by doing a copy and paste move and leaving the draft article as a draft, rather than by moving the draft back to mainspace. Perhaps you need to slow down and take more care in your editing? This seemed to have a batch of good-looking sources even in its first version, so there was no justification to move it to draft. Pam  D  12:23, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * You've correctly noticed. I went a bit mad today and moved a bunch of articles into draftspace... I need to calm down, and stop that. I've re-read draftspace guidelines and read the grievances of all the people caught up in my little power trip... I will try not to make these mistakes again Twemoji12 1f605.svg.  Wiki Macaroons Cinnamon? 12:31, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * But Draft:Inger Lut Debois still exists, so you haven't cleaned up after yourself yet. You should have moved it back to mainspace instead of doing a copy and paste. Are there other articles in a similar mess which you still need to clear up? Pam  D  13:34, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank yous
Thanks for the welcome and info on Women in Red. Reader265 (talk) 09:51, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

I second that. Thanks so much for the encouragement, good advice and for the welcome and info on Women in Red. Arthek3 (talk) 16:18, 7 August 2020 (UTC)


 * @Ipigott Wow! I just finished reading your user page. You are an amazing song! I can see the vibrant life in you. Such an encouragement. Thank you for the work you have done and the contributions you have made. As a multi-linguist myself and having lived in multiple countries I can say you are truly inspiring. You have dedicated your days to a worthy cause and though you don't seek recognition you deserve it. I hope you are well and continue to offer this world your wisdom through your experience of life. Tsistunagiska (talk) 12:31, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Enquiry
hello sir, is this how it was supposed to be as i create an article under women in red project? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ndahiro_derrick#User%3ANdahiroderrick%2FF%C3%A9licit%C3%A9_Niyitegeka Ndahiro derrick (talk) 12:54, 24 July 2020 (UTC)


 * You made a good start on the article. As you know, it has now been moved to mainspace as Félicité Niyitegeka. If you want to make further changes, you need to work on the mainspace version. Just use the edit button and edit as you did in your user space. Let me know if you have any difficulties.--Ipigott (talk) 13:06, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Articles on Women Social Entrepreneurs
With most of the work being done by Jump4130, we've made a lot of progress since we last requested your assistance. We have submitted a few more articles, learned a lot about getting photos through the wikicommons, and worked our way past some rejections on submission. I thought we might ask you about a couple of our drafts, if that's appropriate. We've had the article for Draft:Harambee_Youth_Employment_Accelerator rejected twice, even though it is parallel to the Maryana Iskander and Nicola Galombik articles about its leaders. We've made some more tunes, but wanted to make sure we weren't missing anything for round three.

The other two we'd like feedback on is our rewrite of Draft:Julie Cordua (maybe the PR firm made a hash of it) and the article on one of Pakistan's top social entrepreneurs Draft:Quratulain Bakhteari.Thanks for any pointers: we think we're getting better at this part of the Women in Red community! JRandomF (talk) 23:45, 26 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for letting me know about your problems. It seems to me your reviewers have been unnecessarily demanding. It's not always the case that biographies of people from developing countries can be treated in the same way as those on Americans or Europeans. In any case, I've moved all three articles to mainspace. Now that both of you have considerable editing experience, you don't need to go through AfC every time you create a new article. You can simply move your drafts to mainspace when you have carefully checked everything through and you are pretty sure notability has been established through two or three good secondary sources. Please let me know if you encounter any further difficulties.--Ipigott (talk) 10:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your rapid and positive response on these articles. It is reassuring to know we're getting this (mostly) right.  You are correct, we have some concerns when not everybody agrees that a top social leader from another country is notable, when the person in an equivalent position in the U.S. seems to be considered unquestionably notable. It's part of why we're attracted to working on Women in Red.  Finally, thanks for encouraging us to go through the move to mainspace process when we think we have a solid article. That way, we might only circle back if we get into notability debates. JRandomF (talk) 22:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

LaNada War Jack
If you have the time and inclination, will you give this a copy edit? I am doubtful that I will take it to GA, as she is a living person, and we have no photo, but I was shocked that we had no article on her, since she is clearly a significant player in Native American rights work. Hope all is well with you. SusunW (talk) 18:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Obviously a significant figure. I'll go through it tomorrow. We have now been in Denmark for the last three weeks in beautiful sunshine and excellent health. Hope all is well with you and your husband too.--Ipigott (talk) 19:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's been a tough couple of months for us with all the shenanigans going on in the US. I *think* I have finally figured out how we can actually return our ballots in November, what with the post office craziness. But, it was certainly an ordeal to research. SusunW (talk) 19:28, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I hope your postal votes succeed. The degree of confusion seems to be increasing week by week.
 * I've completed some very minor copy-editing on the article. The multiple changes in her name make for difficult reading but you seem to be right in presenting them as you do.--Ipigott (talk) 08:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much, Ian. I realized after I took it live that someone else had tried to write about her in the past and AFC deemed she was not notable. o.0 I'm sure that was because they hadn't put all the names together. The historic sources don't make any connections between her names, though she was notable as Boyer, and as Means, and as James. Fortunately the modern sources tie all of those names together. Took a lot of time to sort it all out and figure out what to title it. I went with War Jack because that is her preferred name and it is according to the source, her tribal name.
 * We won't be mailing the ballots. Mexican mail is awful and combining that with what's going on in the US makes it illogical. DHL/FedEx/UPS go through customs and get opened, invalidating ballots so we cannot send them that way either. The consulate, where we have always dropped them in a box before, is not open during the pandemic except for emergency services, by appointment only, so no ballot return service this year. Finally discovered a government service for active duty military personnel and citizens living abroad that will process our ballots and return them with tracking codes for us to confirm their receipt and whether they have been counted. There's a whole group of us who are trying to spread the word about it, as obviously it isn't just those of us in Mexico with the problem it is all US citizens living abroad. SusunW (talk) 13:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Your research into ballot collecting is as impressive as your Wikipedia work.--Ipigott (talk) 13:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Gracias, mi amigo. It's been difficult, but hopefully it will be effective. I really like the research part of things, though there is a whole lot less stress in researching for Wikipedia :) SusunW (talk) 13:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Error?
March 2012? Is this correct? MiguelAlanCS (talk) 16:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I can't access the source quoted.--Ipigott (talk) 19:59, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Will you do me a favor?
, I recently edited/rewrote the article Cherokee calendar. I would very much appreciate you reviewing the content and citations to see if it meets the criteria called for. If so I will remove it from the Expert Needed category. I know the subject may not be your area of expertise but you have been doing this for some time now and your experience is undeniable. Any suggestions or tips are welcome as always. Wado (Thank you) Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * OK,, I'll look through it tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 19:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You've made considerable improvements to this article over the past couple of days. If you want to improve it further, it might be useful to add a bit more background on how the Cherokee calendar relates to other Native American calendars, especially those using the turtle model. I see the image you've used depicts an Iroquois turtle and that many other Native tribes use(d) a similar approach. I also note though that the names of the months (as translated into English) differ from one tribe to another. It might be useful to describe the ceremonies in a little more detail (unless you can point to related articles). I've done some minor copy-editing and added some categories. As for numerals, I recommend you use figures for numbers higher than nine and spell them out from one to nine. Keep up the good work and let me know if you need further assistance.
 * I see there are a number of related sources which may be of interest. These include: The Lakota Moon Calendar, Native American Calendars, full Moon Names and Native American Moons (which includes a section on Cherokee). Hope this helps and happy editing!--Ipigott (talk) 09:49, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much . I do have a summary of each festival/ceremony and what was done at each but I really need to find a better online source. Most of what I have is verbal communication I wrote down myself or passed to me by others in written form. While I find them to be reliable it's not to Wikipedia. The definitions for each month are directly tied to their Cherokee name. I do try to add the Cherokee Syllabary where I can and my style is that of a teacher rather than simply stating information and that's why you get the "-"'s between each syllable. It's so beginners or those who don't know much about the language can kind of follow along. I'll continue to work on it and add some of the things you mentioned. Thanks again. :)Tsistunagiska (talk) 10:34, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's great you contribute to Wikipedia as an educator. Simple, easy-to-understand explanations are a great help. If you really have what you consider to be reliable information but have difficulty in finding valid sources, you might like to contact who comes from your corner of the world and has written many high-quality articles on Native Americans.
 * You certainly don't need to follow up on all my suggestions. You have already made lots of significant additions to the article. Btw, I was interested to see you grew up near Turin. I suppose you learnt the impossible Piedmont dialect when you were there -- almost as difficult to understand as Cherokee!--Ipigott (talk) 10:55, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's funny you mention that. I was just talking with my brother the other day and he mentioned how I was using more of a universal Italian dialect. I find I use it more because the people I talk to online find it impossible to translate otherwise. We learn two Italian languages. The one we use locally and the one we use globally. I suppose it's as difficult as Cherokee to someone who never grew up there. Ours was a winding road through the foothills. The kind dotted with the occasional old brick home. A sparsely populated area with small clusters of buildings. A village may have had 20 to 25 people, more or less. Lots of green in-between. We weren't far from the French border.Tsistunagiska (talk) 11:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * happy to make your acquaintance. As Ian says, he and I work together a lot. As you said, I rely on his expertise in many things, especially language. I am indeed "from Oklahoma", Muskogee to be exact, though I wasn't born there. (Ian will find this funny, I once took classes in Cherokee language. Very difficult. I remember only that the word for elephant and butterfly is the same.) I enjoy the puzzle-solving of research, so am happy to help in any way that I can. I am now in southern Mexico, where there are no public libraries, so I have all sorts of methods to try to find sources on line. SusunW (talk) 13:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , it is good to meet you. I guess I am "from Oklahoma" too but I was too young to remember much. I more remember the influences on my life. A lot of people say they are something from birth and I can understand the desire to connect with a group and be a part of something bigger. I can prove my Cherokee ancestry pretty easily but I am reluctant to call myself Cherokee but prefer to say I am of Cherokee heritage and I honor that. But I have also been made an honorary member of the Crow Nation in Montana as well as worked with multiple tribes in Alaska all geared towards bringing them recognition. I seem to always come back to my heritage though and my daily path is filled with events tied to all the experiences I have had surrounding the many American Indian, Native American and Inuit cultures I have encountered and learned from. But there was always something there from my earliest memories. There was always something different. That's why I do believe being a descendant of the native cultures here in North America is, in part, about lifestyle but also there is an element of blood and Spirit connection that is not quantifiable. I am currently working on the article Cherokee spiritual beliefs. It needed some serious attention. I just started adding an opening dialogue leading into the other stories listed there. I may alter them slightly to bridge the gap in styles of writing by adding information from the books quoted or other sources.Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:19, 21 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I see you are making useful additions to Cherokee spiritual beliefs. I realize it may not be easy but you need to include references to reliable sources, including at least one reference for each new paragraph. As you know from the other articles you have edited, in many cases the same source can be used for various additions. I see that even before you started to work on the article, there was a considerable amount of content without the necessary citations. Perhaps you can work on that too.--Ipigott (talk) 15:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My plan is to enhance/add reliable sources for all the material listed. If I can't find reliable sources the information will be removed and replaced with something that can be sourced. In the sections I have added today the referenced books are one source but I will add additional sources for all information.Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:17, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * That's reassuring. Maybe it would be good to include the required refs for each new piece you write when you make the edits. Otherwise you may be faced with additions being deleted or by a host of "citation needed" tags. Some reviewers can be quite vicious. I think most experienced editors make sure they first have reliable sources, then add the corresponding content. I hope my suggestions do not sound too discouraging. They are intended to be supportive.--Ipigott (talk) 15:32, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not at all discouraging. I keep every article I write or rewrite backed up so I can easily replace anything deleted by an overly zealous reviewer. I will go ahead and add those citations now and begin sourcing what was already there. One subject I see, and would like to get your input on, is the section on the Great Spirit. I am thinking this might go better as a subsection to a larger section on "Spirits of the Cherokee" within the same article. That way I can include other Spirit beings the Cherokee held as sacred and integral to their beliefs. We can get in on this too. What do you both think?Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:45, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * As you have probably noticed, there is a separate article on the Great Spirit. Maybe it would be useful to summarize additional background from that article while developing info on the various other spirits. You have probably already come across, .--Ipigott (talk) 16:00, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The first source looks like a web page for some occult. lol The second source is very helpful, not necessarily with the Spirit beings, but with other subjects and is another source I can add to Cherokee Society, especially in regards to marriage, government and ceremonies.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * OK, you are right about the first source but it mentioned Yowa, apparently quite significant. More about Yowa here. See also if you have not already seen it.--Ipigott (talk) 19:50, 21 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know the author, Mr. Conley, and they are both great reads but appears wholly inaccurate from an overall ancient Cherokee belief system standpoint. The Great Spirit was called "Unequa" and the Cherokee didn't worship fires, animals or nature (sun and moon). Records going all the way back to the 1600's indicated the Cherokee believed in "one creator" known as the "Apportioner" or Unethlana (Later Unequa or Great Spirit) but many "spirits" like the Thunder beings and the "Little People". This "three gods in one" was probably introduced as a means to indoctrinate Cherokee into modern Christianity, which probably succeeded to a large extent, and there are Cherokee heritage groups that do teach these things but there is nothing historical about it. It's also a myth that the Cherokee believed in a "Mother Earth" or "Father Sky". There is no indication they believed in these things like other tribes. I have personally used the terms in my own belief system but then I also am influenced by other tribes that I have lived and studied with. :) Thank you for the amazing reads. I am currently looking over Mr. Conley's book. It's fascinating!Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC) The book actually follows along the lines of what we are taught just with added theories of the origins of the Cherokee people before recorded history. Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:21, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Catharine Brown
I am starting with Cherokee women located in the Women in Red: Indigenous Women List and going to either write articles on them or research for others to write. I want to test writing an article for Catharine Brown. She seems like a good start. I'm going to use the recently written article on Durbin Feeling as a template for how to write an article for her. I have the information I think I need and even found a picture for her. What do you think? Seems simple enough. Why am I so nervous? What pitfalls should I look to avoid in the process of getting the article published? Thank you for your assistance.Tsistunagiska (talk) 13:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I recommend you start the article in your user space as User:Tsistunagiska/Catharine Brown. That will make it easier to sort out any problems before moving it to article space. We can help you along the way.--Ipigott (talk) 13:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! You are a gem!Tsistunagiska (talk) 13:30, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yay! I knew when I found that biographical dictionary it would result in articles! Thanks to Gamaliel, it was turned into a list. As Ian says, I work in draft, gather all of my sources and work them into a format similar to Durbin Feeling. You can watch my process here if it is helpful. Also there are tips in our Primer. Photographs are particularly difficult with copyright, so I am happy to try to help with that or refer you to some experts I know. Please feel free to ping me if you need help. SusunW (talk) 15:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Tell me what you think so far[1]. I still need to add sources, which I have, but from a literary standpoint and in accordance with Wikipedia standards do you think it measures up?Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:04, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , your prose is fine. Be sure that you are paraphrasing, rather than copying the sources. Add wikilinks to incorporate the article into the encyclopedia, things like: Cherokee, Choctaw Nation, Brainerd Mission, Cyrus Kingsbury, etc. should be linked. I check all names of people and places to see if there is an existent article. SusunW (talk) 16:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * And please remember to back up all your additions with references to reliable sources. We'll be able to help you further once the references have been added.--Ipigott (talk) 16:27, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely, I will have that completed in just a few and will notify you. I need to check the picture I have for copyright issues before adding it.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:36, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Take a look at the latest revision[2] and let me know. I found three pictures of note online but I cant confirm whether they are copyrighted or not so I didn't include them as of yet. One is of Catharine, sometimes mispelled as Catherine, one is of the "old mission" near Guntersville, Alabama, which is purported to be the actual building Catharine taught in and the last is of a marker for "Catherine" Brown near Guntersville, AL where it mistakenly listed her as the daughter of a Cherokee chief which her father was not. Her nephew, son of Richard or Dick Brown (half-brother), did become Principal Chief of Cherokee Nation West in 1839.Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Let me edit this by saying, there are sources which say her father was a chief but most sources called him a member of the "headmen" or "councilmen" of Creek Path town so it is what it is. One could conclude he was the chief but one might also say he was one of many chiefs or leaders. Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:58, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

It looks really good. I ran earwig and that seems fine too. I also added some categories and authority control to your draft. I wasn't sure if she should also be listed in the cat: People from Marshall County, Alabama, so I didn't add that. If you want to put links to the photos, I can check them to see if I can help. I agree that headman is the proper term if that is what the majority of sources use. Also when you take it live, you should link to this disambiguation page Catherine Brown. SusunW (talk) 19:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Take a look at it now and let me know if you think it's ready or if I need to make changes still. User:Tsistunagiska/Catharine Brown
 * Congratulations on your first article. You've certainly made a great start. I went through it for copy editing but found very little to change. There's just one thing you might like to think about: I see you refer to her as Catharine throughout. We usually use the family name in biographies, unless there is some reason to avoid confusion. Unless you have a good reason for maintaining Catharine, perhaps you would like to used Brown instead.--Ipigott (talk) 11:41, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Absolutely no objection there. I referred to her as Catharine throughout mostly for two reasons. The first is because Brown was, apparently, a very popular last name among the Cherokee when they chose or were given an English name. Ross was another one. I have run across so many Brown's when searching through Cherokee history. The second reason was to make the piece more personalized while maintaining an encyclopedia feel about the article. We are in the business of writing factual articles and curbing most emotional ties but its inevitable that, as we research their lives, we are going to feel some connection. I am not a deeply religious person but I do feel a familiar spirit with Catharine as a woman, regardless of the fact I have Cherokee ancestry. Though I cant put her feelings into words in the article so much, just displaying the facts, I found it very easy to feel what she felt through reading her letters and I walked away with a very deep and profound respect for her as a person and a woman in the time in which she lived. She had such an enduring impact on the world around her that even President Andrew Jackson, a man rightfully vilified for his actions prior to and during the Trail of Tears, spoke fondly of her character and constitution as a woman and Cherokee. To have that kind of impact as a young woman and American Indian at that place and time is truly remarkable. That being said, I am most definitely not opposed to using her last name throughout the article in place of her first name. I don't believe it diminishes the effectiveness at all.Tsistunagiska (talk) 12:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks great. The only one of my steps you missed was linking it to the Wikidata item. I did it, because it is important for 2 reasons, it makes it disappear from the redlist as having been finished and 2 because it is how Women in Red generates its metrics for how many articles we have produced. You also need to fix the licensing on the photos. The licensing is incorrect because it reads that the creator of the work released it into public domain. Many of these are anonymous, so we don't have any proof that they did that. Instead, more likely they are in the public domain because they were published prior to 1925. Here is a list of templates. Go to the US, find the template and then edit your commons licensing substituting PD-US-expired for CC0. On the one made by the National Park Service, the license should be PD-USGov. Again, congratulations on a job well done. SusunW (talk) 13:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much for the tips and for helping me. Both you and Ipigott were so instrumental in my ability to write this article effectively. I cant begin to express my gratitude for the wealth of knowledge you both have given me. I will most definitely make the changes suggested and I look forward to utilizing the insight you have given me in writing future articles.Tsistunagiska (talk) 13:55, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * you are very welcome. The learning curve on WP is long and none of us gets by without help from others who know parts of the system better than we do. Mentors are definitely needed and I was lucky enough to find several. Glad to help any time you need assistance. If I don't know the answer, it is likely I know someone who does. SusunW (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The Wikidata you mentioned above is the "authority controls" added at the bottom? I want to make sure I add it in the future.Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * of course it isn't as simple as that. LOL. This file, I knew there was a wikidata item already because Gamaliel created that redlist for a dictionary I found. I went to the list, pressed on the wikidata item and at the bottom, linked it to the en.wp page you had created. If you are creating an article from a Wikidata generated list, this is the best practice. If you are creating an article from a Crowd Sourced list, typically there is no existing wikidata item. I use a gadget, because I am technically challenged, to create a new wikidata item. Look above to the Primer link and you will find instructions for installing the gadget. There are other ways to create a Wikidata item, but I don't know how without the gadget. SusunW (talk) 14:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, fiddlesticks! That's not what I said out loud. LOL. I may have to "employ" you to do all the gadget thingies. I have a few dried fish and maybe a hard biscuit or two. <3 <3 Waiting on supplies to get to us in the next week or so.Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:45, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, you made me laugh. Those who know me would find it very ironic that I would be doing a technical thing on WP. SusunW (talk) 14:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You have discovered my secret weapon against the sheer boredom of winter. I laugh at myself for basically six months out of the year. Which is very fortunate for me because I find myself constantly doing things worthy of being titled "comic relief".Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I hope there will be many more constructive exchanges like this on my talk page. Great collaboration!--Ipigott (talk) 15:33, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Agreed Ian. Fun to watch the article develop and help each other along. SusunW (talk) 15:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

SKBL
Biographical Dictionary of Swedish Women Dont hesitate to correct my english and content etc... I realized as you said we need a page - Salgo60 (talk) 16:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for making a start on this. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.--Ipigott (talk) 16:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I've tidied this up and added pertinent categories. When I have a bit more time, I'll try to expand it. I see, by the way, that in May 2018 I added it to our Women in Red list of Fully_accessible_biographical_dictionaries.--Ipigott (talk) 09:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks I think we are under the radar right now and it can survive. I also linked it from Template:SKBL see Special:WhatLinksHere... I also mentioned what has been done for the SKBL people on Facebook. When reading the project plan it feels they has defined a problem that is solved by a tool like Wikidata, the challenge is to explain Linked data in an easy way but that talent I dont have see small try on GITHUB. Thanks again - Salgo60 (talk) 09:59, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't think there was ever any danger of the article not surviving. There's still one thing I'm a little concerned about. As far as I can see, SKBL have never used "Biographical Dictionary of Swedish Women" although I see that's the title used in Wikidata. Even on the English version of their website they refer to it as Svenskt kvinnobiografiskt lexikon or SKBL. Other sites have referred to it as a biographical dictionary of Swedish women (sometimes even capitalized) but I think it would be more correct to translate it as "Swedish biographical dictionary of women", especially as it also contains biographies of a number of Finnish women. What do you think? Maybe it would be advisable to contact SKBL and/or KvinnSam for their views. Both Wikipedia and Wikidata usually use the original title of such publications. (I see you created Q50395049 on 11 March 2018 and that Vesihiisi added Biographical Dictionary of Swedish Women a few days later. P4963 was added by Pintoch on 19 March as Biographical Dictionary of Swedish Women.) Maybe can advise on this but we should try to get things right. (cc )--Ipigott (talk) 10:50, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree about the name I will try to call them and see if I can explain your thoughts... its lunch time in Sweden right now ;-) - Salgo60 (talk) 10:54, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks for creating the article.
 * Ian, I think the Swedish name is the correct name for the article and the Wikidata item. Do you think we should rename this redlist from BDSW to SKBL: WikiProject Women in Red/Missing articles by dictionary/BDSW? --Rosiestep (talk) 16:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I didnt get in touch with the people at SKBL today about what they think... but if you change also change the naming of WD prop, thanks - Salgo60 (talk) 16:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you agree with me on this, Rosie. I think the two changes on Wikidata should be completed first. Perhaps you would like to take care of them as I've never interfered with the P items and I don't want to cause any trouble. Once these have been changed, we can move the redlist to SKBL too (maybe with some help from . You might think I'm rather finicky about this but after years working with library authority files, I know serious problems can occur if errors are not corrected, especially titles of publications. I know several keen Wikipedia editors have criticized Wikidata as being error-prone -- so when we find mistakes, I think we should do something about them.--Ipigott (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know what the process entails for renaming a Wikidata property, but I assume gaining consensus on the Wikidata talkpage (https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Property_talk:P4963) would be required. The Wikidata Telegram channel might be a good place for early discussions. I don't think I'm the best suited for pursuing this; perhaps members of the Swedish wiki community would be better posed to follow-up (and perhaps there's a differing opinion which needs to be addressed). CC: --Rosiestep (talk) 16:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * The technical I can do if that is the problem just tell me if you find a better name. I was the creator of this property and have populated it etc.. and I also are having a dialogue with Maria SJöberg who is in charge of SKBL to see if they can deliver data with WD Qnumbers so our process will be easier and they better can use Wikidata for research....
 * Question: I have added Template:SKBL to all SKBL related articles in en:WIkipedia and have seen that many articles about Swedish women are rather short and as SKBL has license CC BY 4.0 SKBL can easily be used to expanded the articles. Question Is there any template I can add to a page explaining that in the same way as Template:Expand_language tells the user to check another Wiki language, that the user should check SKBL english article that have CC BY 4.0 to expand the current article ? - Salgo60 (talk) 22:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing! I'm not entirely sure about English Wikipedia's naming conventions, but if there is no translation of the title already in use, I think the process seems logical to 1. use the Swedish title in the meantime 2. ask SKBL for their view and 3. if SKBL decides to make public a name which we can refer to, in that case change to that. It seems like knows how to do everything on Wikidata? In that case, perhaps or  can do the required changes on enwp. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 11:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks yes I can fix it and Maria Sjöberg in charge has promised to come back to me... interesting thing now is how datadriven SKBL is and it takes 10 minutes for a new entry in SKBL to also appears the "Women in Red project" list
 * Today en/article/MartaLindqvist was released
 * I run a check Wikidata <-> SKBL and found 2 new items
 * One matched an earlier WD item so I added her
 * manually rerun the list WikiProject_Women_in_Red/Missing_articles_by_dictionary/BDSW and now she is on that list
 * video about this datadriven approach SKBL -> Wikidata -> Women in red next step is to move data in the other direction
 * as we in Wikidata now have grave and birth and death records that would add value for SKBL
 * - Salgo60 (talk) 12:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * and : What's the views on relevance on English Wikipedia? I think the thresholds are higher, but would a woman included in an encyclopedia as SKBL be considered relevant per se? What's the view on copying freely licensed informaton from other sources and create articles from that? Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 12:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * : As I frequently create biographies of Swedish women on the EN wiki, I can perhaps offer my thoughts on this. Despite the possibility of copying content verbatim from suitable Creative Commons-licensed sources, I always prefer to draw on more than one source, editing the content accordingly and invariably expressing everything in my own words. (I know nevertheless that we have a number of editors who specialize in drawing on CC-licensed content from biographical dictionaries, frequently those published over 70 years ago and which are therefore out of copyright.) After looking quite carefully at a number of the SKBL biographies, it seems to me that perhaps half of them could be candidates for the EN wiki. These include in particular women whose lives have had an impact not just in Sweden but in other countries, for example in the form of activities conducted outside Sweden, translations of written works, artefacts displayed in international exhibitions or sold abroad, participation in international organizations or enterprises, and significant awards or honours received outside Sweden. Furthermore, for articles to be considered "notable" in the EN wiki, they need to be backed by at least three reliable secondary sources, i.e. at least two in addition to the SKBL source. It also helps if other language-versions of Wikipedia (including the Swedish version) have included biographies or extensive coverage of the individual in question. For those who wish to read the excellent SKBL English-language translations in extenso, I think it is sufficient to include a link in the "Further reading" section, possibly using the SKBL template (but remembering to include the author). As I pointed out earlier, I agree with that many of the existing EN articles on Swedish women could usefully be expanded using the SKBL biographies (ditto btw for the SV articles). Hope this helps.--Ipigott (talk) 10:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I have forward your comment to the SKBLs facebook group link my vision is that Wikipedia/Wikidata needs to be much better and care much more about "sources quality" see T222142 I also asked Denny Vrandečić about his vision video and as some sources are better than others.... SKBL has structured data but I miss that they use sources for statements so much can be done better and I guess this is version 2.0 and we need to start speaking about quality of sources and also how to move data as data from one domain SKBL to Wikidata and vice versa ... in sv:Wikipedia we are still on the level that everything from SKBL and is good enough for an article which I guess will get more mature... - 11:54, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Request to correct Meredith Kopit Levien article
Hello, Ipigott! I noticed you assessed the Meredith Kopit Levien article. I've been proposing some corrections and updates to a handful of articles related to The New York Times Company (which I've fully disclosed on my profile and article talk pages). A couple editors have helped to update entries based on these requests, but I'm struggling to get someone to review Talk:Meredith_Kopit_Levien to fix inaccurate text. I was wondering if you might be willing to take a look? I've proposed and explained specific changes and provided draft markup for (hopefully) easier review. If you're not interested, that's ok, I'll keep trying.

Thanks! Inkian Jason (talk) 16:11, 24 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I'll try to help you along with this in the next day or two but as you can see from recent messages here, I've quite a lot on my plate at the moment, in addition to my own priorities.--Ipigott (talk) 16:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand and appreciate your willingness to take a look when you have a moment. Thank you so much, Inkian Jason (talk) 16:42, 24 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm rather confused about this. Do you really want to replace the first ref at the beginning of the article with the original rather than the archived version? I cannot access the original but the archive works fine. Could you also provide a more explicit list of the changes you want to incorporate. Many of your earlier requests appear to have been incorporated.--Ipigott (talk) 16:04, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry for any confusion. User:Patapsco913 had helped with the first request but not the subsequent request, which I posted as a subsection (Talk:Meredith_Kopit_Levien). I've outlined specific changes on the article's talk page, but I'll recap here. My goals are to:


 * (1) change "introduced" to "helped implement" re: programmatic buying because saying Levien introduced programmatic buying is inaccurate. I've provided sources to explain why.
 * (2) I had initially asked to remove "Levien refocused The New York Times toward digital content and sales, hiring 80 new employees with internet skills and offered severance packages to 40 older employees" altogether because I could not access the Capital New York source, which User:Patapsco913 fixed. Therefore, I updated my request to only remove mention of the employees being "older". I do not think this claim is fair; the source says "a move that some interpreted as a way of nudging older employees out the door". It seems some people felt a certain way about what happened, but I don't think we should say the subject "offered severance packages to 40 older employees" as fact.
 * (3) In my draft, I relocated a sentence re: advertising revenues to keep content in chronological order.
 * (4) Finally, I propose removing the text "again" re: native advertising (which she did not introduce) as well as "where New York Times writers write advertisements in conjunction with customers in the same writing style and format as New York Times news articles)" because Paid Posts were not prepared by New York Times newsroom writers.


 * To summarize, I'm attempting to correct text, and the one pushback I received thus far is regarding the 'older employees' claim (since before, the source was not accessible, but I still feel "older" should be removed). I hope this helps. If I need to break down my request into smaller parts for easier review, I'm more than happy to do so. I think I assumed User:Patapsco913 would revisit to help again, so I was trying to bundle requests in an attempt to save time. Thanks again for offering to help here. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I forgot, this link has my proposed text, which I did not update to add back the 'older employees' claim because I was hoping to discuss further. Again, I'm more than happy to scrap the "Additional requests" subsection request as a whole and break down the requests into more digestible parts, if you prefer. Inkian Jason (talk) 15:45, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * I've made a couple of edits along the lines you suggest but am not prepared to take things further at this stage.--Ipigott (talk) 17:15, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your help. I will review your changes to the article and see what remains to be addressed. I appreciate your time and will seek help from others to assist with my other concerns. Inkian Jason (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I have to ask, would you be willing to simply move the sentence "Levien was brought in to help to stem the decline in advertising revenues (which had declined from a peak of $1.3 billion in 2000 to $667 million in 2013)" after "In July 2013, she was appointed head of advertising at The New York Times Company by C.E.O. Mark Thompson"? This is simply to place content in chronological order. If not, I'll submit another edit request, but I figured I'd ask real quick since this is non-controversial. Thanks again for your help. Inkian Jason (talk) 17:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * . Done. Hope the refs are still OK.--Ipigott (talk) 15:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for your help. Inkian Jason (talk) 14:12, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Eliza Alberty
I am basically only going to be able to create a stub for Eliza Missouri Bushyhead Alberty. There is very limited information on her. There is noteworthy information but it is very short and most sources simply repeat the same information which isn't much more than a paragraph. However, a stub may be able to be expounded upon should more information arise at some point and it will turn her blue. Oddly enough there are two photographs of her and I can find pictures of the hotel she owned, the Asylum she was steward over, her grave site, and the Seminary she attended.Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:36, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure if any of the sources here or here will help. You may have to create a free account to borrow some of the materials. SusunW (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Even looking at all of those sources, albeit some funny stories included, nothing further factual is found that is not already located in the article I am creating [1]. I have just about put everything I can find in the article except photographs, which, though there are quite a few I "could" use, some look very much like copyrighted work despite being taken prior to 1925.
 * So I tried to do the Wikidata thingy and I linked it[2 ] but its not showing up on the article|[3]
 * They appear to be linked to me, but as I said, I am awful at wikitechnology. SusunW (talk) 18:51, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * She has very few identifiers. I knew she was listed on the Dawes Roll because she was born prior to arriving in Oklahoma so I found a NARA identifier which is pretty cool. I think I will see if I can find my family connection using it. The Heritage Center helped me when I visited but it would be amazing to find it for myself. Great Find!!Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)


 * You've made a good start on this, given the few sources you were able to find. Maybe Susun will be able to unearth a bit more. It's good to see our coverage of Cherokee women is improving.--Ipigott (talk) 09:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * {re|Ipigott} The next ones are going to be very difficult as some are still alive and so birth records and such are not provided in most cases. I can find very little in just a general search on most of them.Tsistunagiska (talk) 10:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

If you have time.......
Hi Ian. Hope you don't mind me popping up here, but I've noticed your name a few times recently - you reviewed an article I wrote (Murder of Tulay Goren) and one I've been working on (Rania Alayed) - and I wondered if you would take a look at Banaz Mahmod if and when you have any time? I'm especially keen to improve Banaz as much as I can, as there's a tv drama on her case scheduled to be aired soon, which I guess may bring more people to her article. I've done quite a bit of work on it so far and I hope I've managed to improve it from when it was assessed back in March. If you have time, I would appreciate it. Thank you. --DSQ (talk) 18:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for dropping in here, . I'll try to find time for this tomorrow or Friday.--Ipigott (talk) 15:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ian. I wish I'd looked at your talk page properly before making my random request, I see you're very busy and have a lot of demands on your time - I don't want to add to that, so there's absolutely no urgency at all to my request.--DSQ (talk) 17:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
 * You did extensive revisions to the article and it looks very clean and focused on the facts. Outstanding work! Very compelling and the flow of the information provided was neat and in order. These are the kinds of stories that grip at the heart of every woman who has ever been threatened, assaulted and/or raped. The article really does Banaz justice and shows the failure of society/authorities to come to her defense when she needed it most. I'd like to say we have learned from the countless experiences shared just like hers. I'd like to...Tsistunagiska (talk) 12:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for your positive feedback! As a relatively new user, I'm still not entirely comfortable coming along and totally rewriting somebody else's work as I did with Banaz, so your words of encouragement are appreciated. Desperately sad story, but at least there's enough information out there to tell it - some of the other similar cases are not so easy to present, but I'm working on them anyway! Thanks again. --DSQ (talk) 18:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I completely understand. I'm very new myself but and  have helped me tremendously. It's a subject you are passionate about and when it impacts other lives it is worth writing about to share their story.Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)


 * After looking at the articles you have created, I see you have become something of a specialist on victims of honour killings. I'm glad to see you have applied this experience to Banaz Mahmod which in my opinion has clearly reached B grade. As you'll see, I've made a few very minor copy-editing changes but nothing serious. Keep up the good work and let me know if ever I can be of further assistance.--Ipigott (talk) 08:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I started down this path after reading Nazir Afzal's memoirs, that lead me to Banaz and now I'm on a mission! My grammar, punctuation and spelling are appalling at times, but I'm learning to slow down and take more care and I actually enjoy doing it - especially digging around for sources. Anyway, thank you so much for your time and your feedback Ian, I do appreciate it. --DSQ (talk) 13:19, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Constance Redbird Pinkerman-Uri
I am soooooo trying to write an article on Pinkerton-Uri but outside of her contributions to stemming the eugenics programs the United States seemingly had against Native American women, and to a lesser extent men, in the 1970's there isn't much information on her. Every article states she is a physician and lawyer, or law student, but nothing really mentions where she went to school to get her degrees. No site has personal information. I did find where her license to practice law in the state of California expired. I can only assume she has most likely retired. The best course of action to get information may be to contact her personally but its not published as far as I can tell. It's really sad there isn't more information about her. Her contributions, especially, to Native American/Indian women's rights and her activism seem to beg to be written about. It's a challenge I definitely would like to take but it looks like it is a daunting task given the information. If you have any suggestions, information or tools that can be used please let me know. Thanks, Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , one of the hard parts about women is figuring out what name to use. This article from jstor calls her Connie Uri. Searching newspapers.com, I get lots of info under that name. Give me a bit to finish up Woesha Cloud North and I'll search you some sources. SusunW (talk) 15:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I will try every combination of her name that is possible. I looked under the name Connie Pinkerton-Uri but never really tried Connie Uri. That may be the answer. Thanks for any help you may be able to offer.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:02, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * first thing I do is look her up in FamilySearch to confirm my time line. You may need to sign up for a free subscription. Her birth name was Constance Hollise/Hollis Pinkerman (3 September 1928-8 Jun 2009),, parents/marriage, divorce, looks like when she died she was back to using Pinkerman., SusunW (talk) 16:18, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * My newspapers.com account died yesterday. It has been renewed, but usually takes a few days. From this, we know she attended the University of Arkansas for her undergraduate work and then taught there per this. I am finding a lot of clippings (which I cannot access) as Connie Pinkerman, so I revise what I previously said. Call the article Connie Pinkerman and then make redirects for Connie Uri, Constance Pinkerman, etc. SusunW (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * :'-( She actually has died? So weird that they don't have an algorithm by now that would link this information together when you do a general search.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:42, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure she died as birth dates match those in the birth record and cemetery record. Haven't found an obit, but still looking. SusunW (talk) 16:45, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's crazy how she was called Pinkerton and Pinkerman, Connie and Constance, sometimes including the Redbird and/or Uri and sometimes not. But I cant necessarily blame her. I go by about five different names, all legit. It would be impossible to follow me. LOL.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * yes! That's why redirects are so important. Most everything I find calls her Connie, only occasionally Constance, so that part of "what to title the article" is sure. Since she started as Pinkerman and ended as Pinkerman, I'd probably title it Connie Pinkerman and then make redirects for all the other names. SusunW (talk) 17:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I am writing out the article on paper first and then letting my sister-in-law read over it. She has a knack for finding errors being a schoolteacher. She already found one looking over my shoulder. LOL!!!Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * She graduated from Uni of Arkansas School of Medicine: see this book source. Searching under "Connie Uri" certainly helps. She introduces herself as "Connie Redbird Uri". Pam  D  16:48, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Awwww, thank you so much, . That's such a cool find. It appears she went by or was called by many different variations of her name all throughout her life. I have been sitting here on the edge of my seat reading her words. Its really amazing to spend some time to get to know them through what they have said. We have to be unbiased while writing our articles but it is impossible not to feel just how incredible she was as a woman and a champion for indigenous people here in the US, and women specifically.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There seems to be a lot of stuff by or about her, and I'm sure you'll be able to create an article which will sail through Notability criteria. An interesting woman and some shocking stories. Good luck with the article. Remember to make redirects from every version of her name which anyone ever used or which otherwise seems likely! Pam  D  17:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help!  Some more snippets, at the time she got her medical degree she was Lynch (don't know if that will help or not, but it may be useful to know she had yet another surname).. This has a tantalizing blurb but I cannot access it. Snippet says "Cherokee-Choctaw California anaesthesiologist Dr. Pinkerman was in private practice for fifteen years, and earned up to $100 an hour for her services." If you could find it, it may have more info. Same with this, she was apparently at Wounded Knee incident. Which is confirmed here. Then there is this and this. SusunW (talk) 17:26, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It's going to be interesting redirecting all her name variations back to her. I'm going to see if I can access that blurb. She had her hand in quite a few things it appears.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:32, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It will, but worth it. More, SusunW (talk) 17:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)
 * , I find it so bizarre and honestly, a bit tragic, that there is very little in the way of an obituary or something from her family or those her life impacted upon her death. She didn't die in the 1800's. It was 2009. And maybe it's how she wanted it, idk. I just hope my family or those who know me will write something about my life when I pass.Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:05, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If they don't, we at least have a brief introduction to your personal life on your user page!--Ipigott (talk) 06:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , brief is the operative word in that statement. Oh, the stories I could tell. I told my brothers that I need to write a book on my many adventures and misadventures. They said it would be included in the fiction section because no one would believe that could happen to any one person. LOL!Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:13, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

September Women in Red edithons
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 17:51, 29 August 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Languages
Making good progress. With experience I've realised that no matter how many words you write down you can't remember them all long term. You can't learn much by isolating words. For me jumping in at the deep end and immediately engulfing myself in listening to fluent speakers and reading articles by fluent speakers works best. I find the words I would never remember long term when they show up a few times you learn it without even trying, and also in context which is important. I reached a stage where tackling all six languages was too much work, so I'm really focusing on listening to French and Italian mainly at the moment. Typically I'm saving 100 words a day I don't know, and not worrying too much about remembering them all. Speaking comes later and naturally I think once you've ingested enough of the language to be able to form sentences in your head. How many languages did you say you understood again?† Encyclopædius  10:58, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Good to hear from you again. You seem to be making rapid progress with French and Italian. I must say about 80% of all my language knowledge comes from conversation, especially while living in the countries concerned. The remainder, including extensive vocabulary, comes from reading, not just literature but newspapers, etc. I used to find it useful to write new words down in a notebook and go back over them a few days later, My really fluent languages are Danish. French, German and Spanish but thanks to these I can get by pretty well in Dutch, Italian, Norwegian, Portuguese and Swedish and not so well in Faroese, Icelandic and Romanian. I also took an interest in Russian and the Slavic languages when I was young but have seldom had an opportunity to use them. I was however pleased to receive an award for proficiency in Russian on a recent cruise from Moscow to St Petersburg! If you are able to find a French or Italian girlfriend, you'll find you'll make fantastic progress - and she'll certainly be only too ready to correct any mistakes.--Ipigott (talk) 14:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I hadn't realised before that Romanian was a romance language, a lot easier to learn than Hungarian! That's amazing, I'm sure if you had focused on languages the last ten-15 years you could be a Steve Kaufmann! I hope to learn all of those eventually (though probably not Faroese) but it's a lot of work. There you go, you learned by listening and speaking and reading too! Memorizing lists of words really doesn't work I find, you can learn a few but in weeks it really starts to add up and becomes too time consuming to go through all the words learned, but I'm tracking words saved (following Kaufmann's advice) to monitor progress. I believe it's the repetition in seeing the words in text or hearing it that imprints the signal in your brain. If you never hear the word or see it in articles it's probably not that important to learn. I spend as much time as I can now listening to native speakers, slowed down slightly with a transcript and not worrying about really trying to remember words too much. I'm back on Portuguese today and probably German tomorrow though, I think it keeps it more interesting for me in learning that way rather than concentrating too much on one. Motivation is important of course! † Encyclopædius  16:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I needed a way to gauge new unknown words looked up in more than one language so I created User:Encyclopædius/Language navigation/New words. I had the French words saved on Google translate but the Portuguese and Italian are just from today. I have tons of course already in my notes books but I think doing this will motivate me to read more daily. You really have to be super aggressive on this and gobble up as many words as you can find. Of course not every word will stick right away but it's there then for recapping! The more words you see the more chance of more words sticking! I'm finding in French I'm starting to speak without even trying, all from reading and listening and a lot of words slipping in without even intentionally learning them!† Encyclopædius  16:57, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Sounds great. Keep it up!--Ipigott (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Encyclopædius/Language learning centre/German word list - talk about jumping in at the deep end!† Encyclopædius  17:03, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Beulah Ream Allen
I discovered this woman while trying to help someone find sources on another Dr. Beulah Allen. If you have time, it could use a copyedit. If not, no worries. SusunW (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You've certainly unearthed a lot of interesting details. Not much to copy-edit.--Ipigott (talk) 09:08, 6 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ian. I couldn't access the biography, but I think I covered the most important aspects of her life. Always appreciate your help. SusunW (talk) 14:46, 6 September 2020 (UTC)

Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory
&, would you just glance over the article Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory and then look at my comments on the talk page? I don't think I'm wrong in my assertions. A lot of the links where there may be pertinent information are now dead links and most of the information not cited can not be verified or can be verified to be false by multiple sources. I almost think the article needs to be deleted but I hate everyone not having a voice even if I disagree. At the very least the false or unverifiable information should be removed, right?Tsistunagiska (talk) 13:40, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think some of your suspicions may be justified but I see this article has been under development since 2009. It looks to me as if several of the original reference links to the web have either completely disappeared or been modified by a bot. It may well be that they contained valid information. I am no expert on the topic but I think may be able to help. I'm happy to see you have also expressed your concerns on the article's talk page. You may get some reactions there.--Ipigott (talk) 14:09, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * at the top of the talk page, you will see that it was nominated for AfD and the result was keep. Reading through that is illuminating. Were it me, I would completely rewrite it, starting from the premise that they are a business organization registered as an NGO in Missouri, which has no legal standing as a Native American tribe of indigenous people, though they have used that claim to secure government contracts., Looks to me as if they are only notable for claiming to be something they aren't. SusunW (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Exactly! I read through the the AfD too. I disagree with the nominator that they aren't notable. They clearly are notable, even by the three federally recognized nations. This is a case of, had I ran across this entity I wouldnt have written about them but now that there is an article written all we can do is make sure it projects truth and is verified. I believe, like you have said, they are notable for all the wrong reasons and the article should be rewritten to give it more balance. We can't delete the parts that are verified but we can remove non-sourced information and add verifiable information that reflects the reason why they are notable. I was just searching for articles to add to the chain of Cherokee links and came across this. What a morning! LOL.Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:33, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * We are totally in-sync. I would never have chosen this topic, but since it meets our notability guidelines, it should be rewritten. As it is contentious, you need to insure that the sources remain, so I would be sure that you archive every link you find in either wayback (archive.org) or archive.today. SusunW (talk) 15:58, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * How hard would it be to get a title change? I honestly think the title should be changed to "Northern Cherokees" and then discuss all three entities, The NCNOLT, NCN and Sac River and White River bands. It's complicated but all three claim to be their own entity yet all three need each other if they ever hoped to get recognized, not going to happen. It's like they claim unity when it benefits but then each states they are the "only" state recognized Cherokee tribe in Missouri/Arkansas and the others are not affiliated. The NCN says they are all from one Cherokee Nation and cites the BIA petition: #100 is NCN, #100a is NCNOLT and #100b is Sac/White River Bands. The NCNOLT claims they are the only true tribal government and all the others basically need to unite with them.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:38, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I know squat about how to propose a name move or how to do one. I agree that the broader topic puts less focus (POV) on this single entity, that the same issues apply to the others, and that all of them could be addressed in a single article, but the mechanics of how to do that, I do not know. Perhaps can weigh in on the technical aspects. SusunW (talk) 16:44, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * So, to clarify, you'd like to propose renaming this to Northern Cherokees, right? Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  16:49, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Naming it this will allow for more of the story to be told and how each of the three entities are linked and will allow for the TIMES article to be introduced which mentions two of the three as well as this "Western Cherokee Nation of Arkansas and Missouri". The only organization claiming to be a certified non-profit is the NCN.Tsistunagiska (talk) 16:57, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's the proposal. Not sure if needs to ping the people who were involved in the AfD discussion or not. Seems logical as a courtesy, but WP isn't always logical. SusunW (talk) 17:00, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, that's done, see Talk:Northern Cherokee Nation of the Old Louisiana Territory. You don't need to ping the AfD participants, but if you ping them all indiscriminately, you shouldn't get accused of canvassing. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  17:07, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

−
 * Thank you and ! I just want to be very careful to not allow my personal bias to enter the equation. I can very easily prove my Cherokee heritage and I claim that. I don't claim a penny from the Cherokee Nation nor do I claim citizenship. I believe there is a difference. I was born near Tahlequah but I have never lived their outside of my time as an infant. I am registered and I will stand with and fight for Cherokee preservation and rights. But I will not claim that which I am not owed unlike these groups. That's all I will say about that. Beyond that, I just want to make sure a completely neutral article is written since the subject was broached.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:10, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * (note how I formatted that ping Tsistunagiska, much simpler), I think a broader discussion is needed. I have 0 Native heritage, though my (step) great grandmother was full blood, making all 13 of my great-aunts and uncles native, but none of my grandmother's kids. I believe, like Tsistunagiska that pulling one of the group out puts POV focus on it, rather than discussing the larger issue. Up to you Tsistunagiska whether you want to do a courtesy ping to the AfD participants. SusunW (talk) 17:18, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I got it right. I definitely want a consensus from those involved as much as possible. I will ping everyone involved in the AfD for more discussion.Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:23, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * My ancestors come from somewhere near the A4061 road, so I'm afraid I can't really contribute much to the discussion; however, now it's moving you'll hopefully get a positive result out of it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  17:24, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Some people are so difficult.Facepalm No matter what you do they simply can't see the bigger picture. I appreciate opposing views and I will respond positively rather than negatively but it's like they didn't even read the reasons for it or the intent.Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:29, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Adelia Silva
I discovered her because she was a writer, but I wrote her because she changed society. I'd appreciate you giving it a copyedit. I am a bit confused by the photo, it says created in 2013 (she died in 2004)? Do you think that is an issue or just inexperience on the part of the uploader? SusunW (talk) 19:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Mañana.--Ipigott (talk) 19:40, 11 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Just a glance but I think that's when you would find it was uploaded.Tsistunagiska (talk) 19:42, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Gracias, Ian. that's what I think too, but I want to nominate it for GA so wanted other opinions. SusunW (talk) 19:46, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a very beautiful article. :-)Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:17, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, she certainly deserves full coverage on Wikipedia. As you can see, I have made very few edits apart from removing the italics for the names of institutions, etc. Well done!--Ipigott (talk) 06:45, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ian. Yes, I thought so too. Many articles I read compared her to MLK, but always with the premise that mainstream Uruguayan society did not believe they had an issue with racism. SusunW (talk) 14:21, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

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Alba Roballo
When 1/2 of one's career is literary, how is it that our biography contained only a few scraps of politics? Ugh! I've reworked this bio and hope that you have time to give it a copyedit. SusunW (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Another one which made interesting reading but required little in the way of editing. Strange none of her works have been translated. I see from that her poetry could be very expressive.--Ipigott (talk) 13:07, 16 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I have to say I found her very expressive as well. In interviews, she was captivating. I would imagine a very charismatic speaker. I would hope that her blackness was not the reason she was never translated, but history suggests that it might well have been. It was a hard one to write. English sources say she quit the Senate in 1968 and served again from 1971 to 1973. Spanish sources give quotes of Senate sessions in 1969 and 1970, and show she lost the 1971 race. Took a long time to sort through it and I could find no lists of those elected. In the end, I gave the weight to the Uruguayan sources, as they were far more detailed about her activities. Thanks so much for your help. Much appreciated. SusunW (talk) 14:21, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

October editathons from Women in Red
--Megalibrarygirl (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2020 (UTC) via MassMessaging

Shirley Campbell
I am losing my mind with this. Her most known work Rotundamente negra translates as Roundly Black, Flat Out Black, Completely Black, i.e. something different in every translator. The two I think capture the poem best are Absolutely Black or Emphatically Black, but I think I need a linguist to weigh in. Can you help? Thanks! SusunW (talk) 21:04, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Okay, well I finally found a review where the title was translated as Absolutely Black, so I'm going with that. SusunW (talk) 22:01, 21 September 2020 (UTC)
 * "Absolutely" is probably the best translation. Have you read the poem? You'll see that "rotundamente" is the word throughout. But "absolutely" works pretty well in English too: "I absolutely refuse", "my mouth absolutely big, my nose absolutely beautiful, and my teeth absolutely white", "absolutely free, absolutely black, absolutely beautiful".--Ipigott (talk) 08:53, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Ian. I had settled absolutely but then the next article translated as emphatically, so I decided to ask. Then the last source I had finally translated the poem. I loved it (I could hear her saying those lines). You'll note that I redlinked the collection it is from. I think it deserves its own article, but I am not sure that I am the one to write it. Lots and lots of reviews of it. SusunW (talk) 13:54, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's a gorgeous poem. I think you could use absolutely, definitively/definitely, completely or emphatically. They are all synonymous with each other. Rotundamente hermosa translated from Spanish to Italian is Completamente bello which is "completely beautiful", in French it is Très beau. You can figure out what that is. Russian is the same as French. Interestingly enough the closest translation in Hebrew is יפה סביב ובאמצע which roughly means "beautiful around and through the middle".Tsistunagiska (talk) 17:19, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I love that, "beautiful around and through the middle"! The weird thing is there was a message that an article on her had been created and deleted before. She's clearly notable and since I couldn't figure out if it was deleted from a copyvio or what the problem was, I just ignored it. SusunW (talk) 18:05, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
 * This one will certainly not be deleted. As for translations... In Italian: completamente bella is OK but chiaramente bella might fit into the poem better: "la mia bocca chiaramente grande, il mio naso chiaramente bello e i miei denti chiaramente bianchi", "chiaramente libera, chiaramente nera, chiaramente bella", in French: maybe carrément belle: ma bouche carrément grande, mon nez carrément beau et mes dents carrément blanches", "carrément libre, carrément noire, carrément belle". Maybe someone has translated the poem into these languages. But we have better things to do than playing around with translations, non è vero?--Ipigott (talk) 18:10, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Tu conocimiento de las idiomas es muy impresivo Ian. Sabò tienes muchas experiencia, muchos años conseguir un alto nivel de fluencia, pero pienso es un logrado asombroso todo el mismo. Mi español has desarrolado en las semanas pasados, leer y eschuchar es de importancia fundemental. Me siento más confidente ahora escribir porque quisiera hablar la idoma con fluidez. He ha escribido este mensaje sin assistencia, me disculparse para algunos errores en avanzada! Me entiendes?† Encyclopædius  14:04, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Was it really that bad haha? † Encyclopædius  11:19, 29 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Not too bad. I understood every word of it. So thanks for the compliments. I'm not going to comment on every little mistake like a schoolteacher but you might find it useful to learn that "idioma" (despite the final A) is in fact masculine: so "de los idiomas" and "el idioma". But if you like, you can also use "lengua" which is feminine as in "la lengua española".--Ipigott (talk) 12:49, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

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re: Biographies of women
Thanks very much for your comment and suggestion. I didn't realize that there was a chronological cutoff that recent (1950) for the usage of the Women's history tag. I will look at the link you gave me in more detail. Thanks again--FeanorStar7 (talk) 12:44, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * It's not really a hard and fast rule but some of the women you included in wp:Women were from the 19th century or even earlier. In some cases, both wp:Women and wp:Women's History might be appropriate. Use your good judgment.--Ipigott (talk) 13:07, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * thanks very much. So the two projects are complimentary and not exclusive? I guess I would think a single tag (wp:Women's history) would be sufficient for someone from, say, the 17th century, as an example. I assume the project pages will discuss this (?). If both tags seem appropriate, I will do my best to add them.--FeanorStar7 (talk) 13:58, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The wikiproject page explains "the lives, activities, achievements, and experiences of women up to the mid-20th century". Note that it's Women's History, not Women's history. A historical error, no doubt, but there it is.--Ipigott (talk) 14:28, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Such an interesting topic. So WP:WOMEN encompasses ALL topics related to/about/including women, time immemorial to present tense. It appears that WP:WMNHIST is more focused from Mid-20th Century back to time immemorial, except where current events related to women have a historical anchor, if you will, and/or about women after the mid-20th Century who are/were agents of historic change.Tsistunagiska (talk) 20:15, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * As you might have noticed on our editathon pages, we recommend that either wp:Women or wp:Women's History should be added to the talk pages of new biographies, Women's History for those born before 1950. This provides additional possibilities for development of the articles while listing those in danger of deletion on the wikiproject pages. We also recommend including a Women in Red tag, of course. Partly as a result of our efforts, there are now over 69,000 articles in wp:Women and 49,000 articles in wp:Women's History. However, all in all there are over 325,000 women's biographies on the English version of Wikipedia which means that around 200,000 do not belong to either of the two wikiprojects.--Ipigott (talk) 07:15, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Sounds like we need some help locating and placing the appropriate templates on those articles. I can start perusing and see what I can locate to help with this effort.Tsistunagiska (talk) 12:34, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the kind offer but I wouldn't spend too much time on it. In any case, it's more important for new articles than for all those that have been around for years. I think you should continue to devote most of your time to creating new articles and working on enhancing existing ones. When you make improvements to existing articles, it might be useful to add any important missing wikiprojects on their talk pages, perhaps checking the assessments if you feel like it.--Ipigott (talk) 12:44, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Question about editing/expanding stubs?
@Ipigott Thanks so much for your past encouragement. Question: If I edit a stub and add enough copy and refs to make it more than a stub, how should I amend the talk page to have it rerated? So far, I have just been adding a note to the talk page saying that this page "is no longer a stub." I've also been removing the stub template from the page itself. Is there more I should do? i.e. Madge Adam, solar astronomer. AMM Pittsburgh (talk) 14:23, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * If it's no longer a stub, then just change "class=stub" to "class=start", the next higher class. I've re-assessed several of your articles and see that most of them are in fact C class. Let me know if you need further assistance.--Ipigott (talk) 15:24, 28 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks to your edit comments, I've been able to identify about 25 articles which you de-stubbed over the years, most of which required re-assessment. You can see which ones if you look at my recent contributions. Thanks for all your work on these and for all your new articles. You've certainly been making lots of useful contributions, helping us along with Women in Red. Keep it up and let me know if ever I can be of further assistance.--Ipigott (talk) 16:37, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * @Ipigott Thanks for the info and the welcome encouragement. AMM Pittsburgh (talk) 17:13, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Alma Vessells John
Can you give this one a once-over before I nominate it? Thanks! If you are too busy, no worries. SusunW (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Virtually nothing to do on this one but please continue to send me your latest articles. They always make interesting reading.--Ipigott (talk) 08:24, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much. I honestly appreciate your going over them, as many of them develop so piecemeal that I want to insure they are cohesive. I loved writing her. She was truly a fascinating subject and required a lot of detective work. I cannot believe a formal biography of her doesn't exist somewhere. SusunW (talk) 13:09, 29 September 2020 (UTC)