User:Irtapil/Who is at War?

Related User Space Pages

 * User:Irtapil/TalkDrafts
 * Talk:2023 Israel–Hamas war

usage on other wikis
'''2023 Israel–Hamas war → ? –'''
 * A: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Hamas war (2023–present) or
 * B: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Hamas war or
 * C: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Gaza war (2023–present) or
 * D: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Gaza war or
 * E: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → 2023 Israel–Hamas war  or
 * F: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Gaza genocide or
 * G: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Palestine war (2023–present) or
 * H1: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → 2023-2024 Israel–Palestine war or
 * H2: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Palestine war (2023-2024) or
 * I: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → 2023-2024 Israel–Hamas war or
 * J: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → 2023 Israel–Palestine war or
 * K: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel–Palestine war or
 * L: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → 2023–24 Israel–Hamas war or
 * M: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → 2023–24 Israel–Palestine war
 * N1: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → "Israel war with Palestine, Hezbollah, and Ansar Allah or
 * N2: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Israel war with Palestine, Hezbollah, and "Yemen" or
 * O: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Operation Swords of Iron or
 * P: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Al-Aqsa Flood and Operation Swords of Iron or
 * Q1: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Al-Aqsa Flood or
 * Q1: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Operation Al-Aqsa Flood or
 * R: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → "Hamas-Likud war" (for comparison)

unfinished draft answers
(or some other date designation with the same adversaries, I have no strong feelings about the dates.

It is definitely bigger than just Gaza, but even though there are belligerents outside Israel-Palestine they are all fighting for the existence of expansion of Palestine (or fighting against Israel doing those, if you frame it the other way) the Houthis are even flying the Palestinian flag.

"Israel-Palestine war" is used rarely, but it is the least-worst compromise between the assortment of worse options that are very one sided. e.g. "2023 Palestinian Resistance…" would be as bad as the current title.

separate answers

 * Agreed, and even Western sources are dropping the meme of Hamas controlled. NYT article: While the collapse of Gaza’s health system has made it challenging to track exact numbers, the World Health Organization has reported at least 369,000 cases of infectious diseases since the war began, using data collected from the Gaza Health Ministry and UNRWA, the U.N. agency that cares for Palestinians — a staggering increase from before the war., Another one: The Gaza Health Ministry said that 73 bodies and 123 injured people had been brought to the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, in the city of Deir al Balah, in the past 24 hours. The circumstances of the deaths and injuries were not immediately known, and the health ministry did not elaborate. But aid workers have described intense bombardment by Israeli forces, which say they are advancing on the major southern city of Khan Younis to root out Hamas militants there.  nableezy  - 16:27, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The Lancet has a brief report that refutes it well, that should be prominent as refutation of that. There a are actually two from this war, and an older one (which I think is BMJ or BMC)) from a previous time the IDF killed hundreds of Gazans.
 * I'll come back to this later with other links…
 * https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02713-7/fulltext
 * Irtapil (talk) 03:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, am I the only one who finds it weird to talk about a political party and government as if it's all military? The militant wing is the Al-Qassam Brigades, that's the IRA to Hamas's Sinn Fein, or the PLA  to Hamas's  CPC. But a lot of sources talk about the whole Gazan government as a military, they were way over due for an election, but structurally much more Islamic / state-communist than martial law?
 * (It's debaathification all over again, and last time that ended up with bloody ISIS, this madness will replace a mostly imaginary heretical death cult presence with a real one?)
 * Should we try to avoid that kind of blurring? In wars between states we often refer to military action as what "Russia" / "Ukraine" / etc. did, but this is a more complicated,
 * And they seem averse to elections, but one party states are not generally in the Habit of making multiple attempts to free leaders of other political parties from prison?
 * Irtapil (talk) 03:09, 1 January 2024 (UTC)Irtapil (talk) 13:01, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 23 December 2023

 * O: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Operation Swords of Iron or
 * P: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Al-Aqsa Flood and Operation Swords of Iron

(You can add other name suggestions if you think that it is appropriate) With almost a week left for this year to end, I think it is about time we start the discussion for renaming this article (Admins please don't move the article before 1/1/2024) &#32; Abo Yemen ✉  07:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Not "–present" because of WP:RELTIME, and also because it adds nothing. There is no other "YYYY Israel–Hamas war" or "Israel–Hamas war of YYYY", so per WP:PRECISE Israel–Hamas war is sufficient, and per WP:CONCISE it is best (and it's already a redirect). If there's another one at some point, the title can be taken up again at that time. (Note: in this edit, I added the 'A' and 'B' prefixes to the choices above. Mathglot (talk) 08:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for adding the prefixes!  Abo Yemen ✉  08:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot wouldn't WP:PRECISE not apply here given that there have been multiple recent conflicts between Israel and Hamas? Ergzay (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, based on WP:DUE and WP:COMMONNAME. A search of the top 100 results for "Israel–Hams War" shows almost nothing for other conflicts. The examples Bothell, Washington, Leeds North West, and M-185 (Michigan highway) are some examples where WP:OVERPRECISION makes sense, by dint of existing naming conventions for each of those cases; but that doesn't apply to 2023 Israel–Hamas war because there is no such convention that applies in this case afaik. If you can show that other conflicts come up significantly for an unbiased search, I'd have to reevaluate my conclusion. Mathglot (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B: Only name. The article Siege of Mariupol is not called Siege of Mariupol (2022) because of the Battle of Mariupol (1919). Per WP:TITLEDAB, disambiguation is only necessary when there is otherwise an actual conflict in article titles. No such conflict in titles exists. Per WP:CONCISE, concision is preferred over unnecessary precision. not only is there still no other article titled Israel–Hamas war, but even if there was, this article is unequivocally still the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Parham wiki (talk) 09:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option B for the same reason as those commenting above. Riposte97 (talk) 12:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ' Premature' and also fails to give sufficient options, such as "leave alone for now." After Jan. 1 we can determine how or if to rename this, perhaps to 2023-2024 Hamas war, which is the option I would favor after Jan 1, consistent with 2014 Gaza war on the previous major conflict. I certainly see the point of this nomination and we do want to think about renaming going forward. But right now the name is correct. Option B' is no good because there were indeed wars in 2014 etc. and it is too broad. Coretheapple (talk) 15:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Changing to E. This option was not available when I posted the comment above. Title should be left alone for the time being. Coretheapple (talk) 16:39, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option B' is no good because there were indeed wars in 2014 etc. and it is too broad. Read my comment. Parham wiki (talk) 15:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D. I'm also fine with C, though I'm not sure if the date is necessary. I was opposed to the war being titled anything after Hamas from the start and I reaffirm my opposition, even after mainstream news outlets have adopted this name. I fundamentally believe that at no point of the conflict would it be accurate for the name "Hamas" to be in the title- Hamas was not the only group to participate in the October 7 invasion, and the overwhelming majority of people killed in the conflict are not Hamas. My suggestion has always been Israel–Gaza war as it makes it clear the war is between the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole versus Israel, even if this is not the name most sources use- it is the most neutral and accurate name one can give the conflict. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 16:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with your reasoning, and if I had created the article I would have called it that. My first thought was that we are bound by WP:COMMONNAME but a Google search indicates that both are in use, with Israel-Hamas war being about 20% more popular.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  19:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I acknowledge that the name "Israel-Hamas" war is more widely used in sources. However, I believe that despite WP:COMMONNAME, going with the name "Israel-Gaza" would avoid a WP:NPOV violation.
 * I argue that these names are not interchangeable or equivalent as it doesn't fully comprehend the scope of the war. Imagine if the conflict was titled "IDF-Hamas War"- of course, this would be inaccurate, as many Israelis who were not in the IDF and were mere civilians were massacred in October 7. The same applies for this situation- Hamas militants are only a fraction of the 20,000 Gazans dead, which includes thousands of very young children who obviously can not be a part of Hamas. The name "Israel-Hamas" violates neutral point of view in that it ignores the large proportion of the war with no affiliation with Hamas, even if it is what reputable news outlets use.
 * (Getting into why most news outlets use the name "Israel-Hamas" probably goes beyond the scope of this talk page discussion.)
 * HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I strongly concur with this reasoning. AJ uses Israel-Gaza War and all the hip kids you want using Wikipedia in the future key very keenly on phrasing. Right now, we're a hummus joke. Everyone knows that's just a cherry-picked bogeyman being used to perpetuate a genocide. It doesn't say NPOV, it doesn't say global perspective, it says we are old and drink kool-aid. ClaudeReigns (talk) 09:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi has been changed page to "Israel–Hamas war" before 1 January 2024 ok Thanks.￼ Andre Farfan (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D - not specifying a date seems best as I don't think there are any wars this would be confused with and it isn't ending before the year does, and Hamas is far from the only group involved with the current fighting.  Rema goxer  (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or if it must be changed A or B - I don't have a strong opinion other than I think the existing name is fine and doesn't have any issues with it, but if it needs to be changed it should be A or B, as C/D change the meaning of the conflict. The war is against Hamas and related groups, not against the existence of Gaza. Ergzay (talk) 21:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hamas-Israel War (2023 - present) :^) Metallurgist (talk) 22:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E - the war is known by the date that it began. B is too broad and could refer to the 2014 conflict, among others.  I am also open to changing it to "2023-2024 Hamas war" after January 1. Dovidroth (talk) 06:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E. I agree that the war is known by the date it began, and there have been multiple Israel-Hamas wars. It is also, as mentioned above, premature and quite possible that a common name for the war will emerge next year. Marokwitz (talk) 10:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E (or if needed A or B), I believe that it is still early, and the conflict started in 2023 so the current isn't entirely incorrect from next year. However, this proposal combines three issues, what is the best format for the year, whether the year is needed, or whether Hamas or Gaza is more common. The controversial issue of whether to use "Hamas" or "Gaza" must be separate considering past discussions. Article title policy states the most common name is to be prioritised over the need for a NPOV name per WP:NPOVNAME. Ofc, if common use changes, I would fully support it. When 2024 comes hopefully sources can settle on a new name.  Dank Jae  18:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F I'd call it the Gaza genocide. Why not just leave the question and decide a proper name later because I don't think it'll survive as a 'war'. That is what it is shaping up to be with Netenyahu talking about the job only beginning and I estimate it would require killing a tenth of the population of Gaza to eliminate Hamas at the current rate. And they are planning to occupy it afterwards which would mean Israeli settlements pushing out the inhabitants like on the West Bank I don't know if the UN will survive this after people in the west wake up to what they are supporting. NadVolum (talk) 20:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F is a terrible choice. There is already a page for the 2023 Israeli bombing of Gaza and renaming the 2023 Israel-Hamas War article to "Gaza genocide" discounts the October 7th attack and other IDF fighting in West Bank/Lebanon just to express a political opinion. EytanMelech (talk) 00:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E. The name should stay the same, as 1. Any extra clarification of the date is not needed, and would just look bad. There is only one Israel-Hamas war in 2023. For option B, although there has only really been one direct Israel-Hamas War (this one), it still can be confused with various wars and battles in the past, like the 2014 Gaza War. C and D not only make it more confusing, but are also inaccurate, because this is a war between Israel and Hamas, not Gaza. According to their statements, Israel is not attempting to eliminate Gaza, they are attempting to eliminate Hamas. Antny08 (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E for now. I hope it will be over well before 2025, but if it isn't, then we could talk about it again in December 2024.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E I would also point out that I think for now its best. I think the move is a bit premature. Either way, I must mention that alphabetically it should be Hamas-Israel since H comes before I... Homerethegreat (talk) 06:23, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but absolutely nowhere is calling it "Hamas-Israel"? I've even seen at least one instance of "Israel-Hamas" on Al-Jazeera (not normally on team Israel), but none the other way. Irtapil (talk) 06:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Per WP:NHC, statements that contradict policy should be discounted. A, C and E Votes do not address the prevailing policy but largely make a simple statement that other wars exist. While things can change, this does not mean that they will change. For the present (and the foreseeable future), the B option is supported by policy. Also Israel–Hamas war redirects to this article. Parham wiki (talk) 06:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E; the date when the war began is clear enough for now until a common name for it emerges. Oppose B for now - I'm not convinced that it qualifies as a WP:COMMONNAME at the moment. Of course the current search results for that particular term are going to be dominated by a currently active war over past conflicts - that's how search engines work. But a quick Google Scholar search says that about 40% of the hits for the term are from 2022 or earlier; clearly it is not a precise term. Without a clear common name, we have to follow WP:CRITERIA, which requires unambiguous precision. The simple statement that other wars exist is a valid policy-based argument and, given the weak arguments otherwise presented for renaming to B, is sufficient to take that option out of the running. As an aside, the only other argument presented for B (that no other article currently exists with that title) is also spurious and not grounded in policy - WP:PRECISION does not care whether we have other articles under that name (indeed, if a name is unacceptably vague, it would be expected that we wouldn't.) What matters is whether it unambiguously identifies the article subject, which it plainly does not. --Aquillion (talk) 11:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Was it before October 7 or not? Parham wiki (talk) 12:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Even if true, 60% (plus other sources) indicate that this article is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Parham wiki (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E' per Aquillion. Andre🚐 11:50, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C or D. I got the ball rolling on the COMMONNAME move to "Israel-Hamas" very early on (10 October), but I regret that. Subsequent developments have made the title non-compliant with WP:NPOV, as reliable sources keep noting the extent to which this war is affecting all Gazans, all areas of Gaza, and destroying huge pans of Gazan civil society, not just Hamas members. I doubt the majority of the Gaza-related contents in this article is about Hamas itself (vs. other Gazans), so the title no longer even matches the content. I also agree with HadesTTW's reasoning. I see more WP:AND-related arguments above; here's my previous argument against them. DFlhb (talk) 12:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not necessarily an NPOV violation to omit the harm accruing to civilians/infrastructure in one polity. To my knowledge, that's never been a major consideration in naming conflicts, cf belligerents. Riposte97 (talk) 13:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support B as most reported, most accurate, and the war isn't going to end in 5 days, unfortunately. 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 14:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B, additionally that is what the ITN puts it as. 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 14:10, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * A, as the war will no longer be isolated to just 2023 once the year ends. B if WP:COMMONNAME shows that "Israel-Hamas war" needs no date specified. A move from E is necessary once the year ends though. - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D or C per Article titles. It is important to note that there are 5 CRITERIA for deciding on an article title: (1) Recognizability, (2) Naturalness, (3) Precision, (4) Concision and (5) Consistency. Despite the fact that everyone keeps citing it like it is the full expression of our policy on article titles, WP:COMMONNAME is only a small aspect of the above 5 criteria. COMMONNAME only captures recognizability and perhaps naturalness. In considering the title for this article, COMMONNAME doesn't account for precision and consistency.
 * It is imprecise to describe this war as between Israel and Hamas. Despite the false claims by the Zionist entity, the death toll is indiputable evidence that the war is against all of Gaza. If this was just a war with Hamas, 20,000 deaths would mean the entire strength of Hamas would have been destroyed.
 * It is also inconsistent with the many articles with "Gaza–Israel" in the title. Per WP:AT, A good Wikipedia article title... is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. This article and its children are the only titles that include an organization Hamas hyphenated with a country Israel. The current title is inconsistent with May 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes, 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes, November 2019 Gaza–Israel clashes, May 2019 Gaza–Israel clashes, March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes, March 2010 Israel–Gaza clashes, and 2006 Gaza–Israel conflict ...
 * Even if we inappropriately only considered COMMONNAME, there is no clear evidence that Hamas is part of the common name used for the war. There is just as much evidence that Gaza is used as the common name in reliable sources. --- C &amp; C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C per C&C, but D is also acceptable per WP:NCE. I would emphasize as well that WP:COMMONNAME is specifically subject to the requirement of NPOV (like everything else on Wikipedia). The policy states: Neutrality is also considered; see § Neutrality in article titles, below. WP:NPOVNAME allows for a POV title only where the subject is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources (emphasis added). Here, "Israel–Hamas war" may be used by a preponderance of sources, but it is not the single common name, nor is it demonstrably used by a significant majority of sources, and many of the sources that do use it do so alongside other names. The fact that it is the preferred name of one party to the conflict should give us pause.
 * Some RS that use Israel–Gaza war (whether exclusively or in addition to I-H war): the BBC, ABC, Al Jazeera, WaPo, The Guardian. Israel–Gaza war is more internally consistent with our other article titles, and there are other armed groups involved, making the current title inaccurate and simultaneously imprecise and overprecise (frankly, even F would be more accurate than the current title.) WillowCity  (talk)  00:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Opposed to using 'present' as already explained above and oppose 'gaza' per CommonName in RS. Yeoutie (talk) 02:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support B according to WP:COMMONNAME, and having in mind that this war will not be finished before the onset of 2024. —  Sundostund  mppria  (talk / contribs) 09:31, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Per WP:PRECISE, WP:CONCISE, and WP:COMMONNAME. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C. I agree completely with WillowCity above, WP:COMMONNAME (a policy about using recognisable names as opposed to overly formal ones) is being misapplied here as per usual. The problem with D is that there have been several other "Israel–Gaza wars" such as those 2008–9, 2012, 2014 etc. Oppose all the others on grounds of NPOV. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 16:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C. I concur with the points raised by WillowCity and filelakeshoe. The title “Israel–Gaza war (2023–present)” seems to be a more accurate and recognisable representation of the situation as it encapsulates the broader impact of the war on the entire region of Gaza, not just Hamas. This is in line with WP:NPOV, which emphasizes neutrality and fairness in representation. Furthermore, the addition of the year and “present” provides a clear timeline of the ongoing conflict. This is crucial for historical accuracy and context, especially considering the previous “Israel–Gaza wars”. – Ainty Painty (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * E. There have been man wars and battles following the Battle of Gaza in 2007. Overthrow-dictator (talk) 00:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B or D. As others have noted, I agree that "Israel-Hamas War" would be the clearest, most concise, and precise new name for the page that would likely not need to be changed again for the foreseeable future. I still believe that this is the most commonly used name for the war in news media at present. "Israel-Gaza War" is an acceptable alternate, however I believe it may be too similar in name to "Gaza-Israel conflict" and may cause confusion when searching. Option E is out of the question to me, article name needs to change. At a later date if historical consensus is reached, Option F may be considered. I also suggest capitalization of the word War as in Iraq War and Six-Day War. forerunner45 (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B or A, the war is likely to continue in 2024, so the current name should be changed. Alaexis¿question? 07:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B — Israel–Hamas war, because it is a concise and common name that is unlikely to be confused with other conflicts. The "about" template which is already at the top of the page also directs those who were looking for different articles.
 * If a variant of "Israel–Gaza war" is used for this article, a name which I find more neutral but less common, I believe "2023" should be added to the start (2023 Israel–Gaza war). FunLater (talk) 17:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B: As predicted, this will drag on into at least 2024, so it is time to drop the year.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 19:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option C: per the same reasons as this similar previous move discussion in that the current title is both inaccurate or imprecise since the conflict has metastasized to embroil all of Gaza; that "Hamas" is not a place and so does not produce a coherent WP:NCWWW title; that the title remains inconsistent with the broader "Israel-Gaza conflict" series of pages on Wikipedia; and due to the lack of a clean-cut commonname case for the use of the current title - given the widespread use of the "Israel-Gaza" alternative by reliable sources, including the BBC, Guardian, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C. I wouldn't mind Option B despite being a little bit confusing, but Option E wouldn't fit properly since the war will definitely still happen next year. I choose option C because the conflict has been going on for decades, only for it to significantly escalate in 2023. Quake1234 (talk) 12:24, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B if we are abiding by Wikipedia guidelines, namely common name. I am open to adding to it "2023-present" but I think that it would make it just sound awkward.
 * E The war began this year, and it is the only Hamas-Israel war in 2023. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * G or H or J - The least-worst option is "Israel-Palestine war" with some sort of date designation, but I have no strong opinions about how we do the dates. I added K to the list as well, because I only care about how we describe the adversaries, but I think leaving it undated would be too confusing? Irtapil (talk) 02:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because it is not just Gaza - I very much dislike the "Israel Hamas war" framing, it is a version of the story which seems to be only be told by one side? So not appropriate. But "Gaza" would not by much of an improvement because there are substantial hostilities in the West Bank, and two way strikes on the northern border (two Australians got killed by an IDF airstrike in Lebanon this week), and Houthis in the Red Sea. Irtapil (talk) 22:47, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * L 2023–24 Israel–Hamas war. "Israel-Hamas war" was chosen thanks to being the name used by RS, and it still is the name used by RS. Removing the date is too vague because Israel and Hamas have been engaged in a longer-term conflict for decades which could be described as a "war". The current title will become blatantly incorrect in two days' time, and there is no consensus for a replacement, so the best option is the least change possible to the current title whilst recognizing that the war has extended into 2024. Chessrat  ( talk, contributions ) 05:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B, but would also support any other form of "Israel-Hamas war". In this move request we consider three different names; Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Gaza war, and Israel-Palestine war. Of these three, in the past day news sources have used:
 * Israel-Hamas war approximately 140 times (and approximately another 40 using Hamas-Israel war)
 * Israel-Palestine war approximately 30 times (and another 3 using Palestine-Israel war)
 * Israel-Gaza war approximately 60 times (and approximately another 10 using Gaza-Israel war)
 * This usage shows that a significant majority of sources use Israel-Hamas war and thus WP:COMMONNAME is met.
 * For us to ignore this evidence there would need to be a strong argument of other issues with the title, but only two arguments have been presented; that the name is not neutral, and that the name is inconsistent.
 * The first argument has generally been asserted without evidence, and in many cases without argument - the closest we have to an argument for it is that the current name ignores the large proportion of the war with no affiliation with Hamas. I don't agree with that; Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip and thus all inhabitants are affiliated with it. In addition, the name is consistent with titles such as War against the Islamic State.
 * The second argument is also weak; looking at Template:Campaignbox Gaza–Israel conflict there is no consistency in article titles and thus consistency is not an argument to move this one.
 * As such, we are obliged to follow the reliable sources, and that means using B or some variant on it; my personal preference is for B, as it is the most concise while still abiding by the rest of WP:CRITERIA. BilledMammal (talk) 05:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @BilledMammal: I would respectfully request that you strike it recuse yourself from the statement that "Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip and thus all inhabitants are affiliated with it." - this is the same inaccurate generalization that involved politicians have made in recent statements of genocidal intent, and I sincerely hope that this was just a poorly wrought wording. On the substance, it has been a long while since Israel's war has been prosecuted solely against Hamas, if it ever was, and there remains, yes, a glaring issue in the unnatural and inconsistent mismatch between "Israel" and "Hamas" as comparable nouns, not least in the basic failing per WP:NCWWW by way of "Hamas" not being a geography, but a government actor within a political system akin to "Likud" on the opposing side. You make a comparison with a title involving Islamic State, but that is not a good comparison. This is not a "war against" title, but a hyphenated "like for like", geography "X–Y" title (or should be). At the most basic level, the allusion to ISIS is a POV one, having come straight from the lips of the likes of Netanyahu, but the similitude stops there. There is no less similitude between "Israel" and "Hamas" in the sense that both have been accused of terroristic behaviour. Moving to a broader point about geographical naturalness in the title, it is frankly absurd not to have the actual geography involved in the war, "Gaza", in the title at this point given that this is where almost all of it has taken place. This was never a conflict of precision strikes against Hamas (it would likely not have devolved into a "war" had it been so); it has always been a highly indiscriminate campaign of bombardment and more personal acts of violence – one which has resulted in the total devastation of the Gaza Strip alongside the murder and starvation of a grossly disproportionate count of the inhabitants of Gaza ... Now to the extent that the Genocide Convention has been invoked. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As a general point; NPOV isn't what we think is neutral, it's what reflects reliable sources on a topic. If reliable sources on a topic describe this as a war between Hamas (and other militant groups) and Israel, declining to describe it as a war between Gaza and Israel, then to comply with NPOV we must describe this as a war between Hamas and Israel, including in our titles; to describe it as a war between Gaza and Israel would be an NPOV violation.
 * Regarding a government actor within a political system akin to "Likud" on the opposing side: That isn't an accurate comparison. With Hamas and the de-facto Gazan State, the lines between Party and State are blurred, but with Likud and Israel are not.
 * This blurring is particularly strong when we consider the composition of the armed forces. In Israel, Israel has an army, Likud does not. In Gaza, Hamas has an army, Gaza does not, and as such Israel isn't fighting Gaza. Instead, Israel is fighting Hamas in Gaza, making the current title accurate and your preferred title inaccurate - which explains why reliable sources prefer the current title.
 * Regarding the comparison with a title involving Islamic State it demonstrates that it can be appropriate to refer to the party that controls the territory. BilledMammal (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * NPOV requires we respect all significant views; it doesn't mean that majoritarian headline language makes for the best page title. Of the available options in currency, this page currently sits at the only one that fails to outline the basic geography of the conflict, per WP:NCWWW. And geography is emphasized for good reason. Many events in Gaza do not involve Hamas. A source about the bombing of the church of St. Porphyrios need make no mention of Hamas, but it would be highly unlikely to exclude "Gaza" as a location. Beyond headlines, and we indeed ignore headlines, per WP:HEADLINE, the stories about this war that mention Gaza will significantly outnumber those that mention Hamas. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You're asking the wrong question; you're asking where reliable sources say the war is taking place. What you need to ask is who reliable sources say the war is taking place between.
 * In response to that question, most reliable sources say Israel and Hamas, sometimes with the addition of other militant groups - and this isn't, I note, something limited to headlines. Reliable sources consistently call it the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose, and they consistently characterize it as a war between Israel and Hamas in prose. BilledMammal (talk) 12:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources obliviously don't refer to it as a war between Israel and Hamas in all of the litany of instances where Israel bombs something and there isn't any evidence to back up its claims that it is attacking something military. 60% of Gaza's houses were never anything but civilian property. Which RS routinely refer to it as the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose? More than anything this appears to be more of a story tag or shorthand headline prefix than a prose term. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources obliviously don't refer to it as a war between Israel and Hamas in all of the litany of instances where Israel bombs something and there isn't any evidence to back up its claims that it is attacking something military. Can you clarify the point you are trying to make here?
 * Which RS routinely refer to it as the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose? To start, most of these hundreds of scholarly sources; I think there are enough sources there to satisfy your request? BilledMammal (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You said consistently; I said routinely - a raw search is nothing but a scattershot and shows neither. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In regards to WP:NCWWW, you have overlooked the first sentence in that section, which says If there is an established, common name for an event, use that name. There is an established common name for this event, Israel-Hamas war.
 * You’ve also overlooked the last section of that guideline, WP:NCENPOV, which tells us if there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view. I disagree that there is a POV issue with the current title, but even if there was the guideline you have been referencing tells us to use it. BilledMammal (talk) 16:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The WP:NCE guideline has to be read in light of the overarching policy, WP:NC, which takes precedence over the guideline in the event of a contradiction. I've explained above why the WP:COMMONNAME argument is a red herring; here, there are multiple names in common use, and accordingly, we have to err on the side of NPOV. Iskandar323 has thoroughly explained why the current title is POV. As well, you seem to be conflating the policy on WP:RS with WP:NPOV; these are two different policies (albeit with some overlap). WillowCity  (talk)  17:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn’t the editor who raised NCE; that was Iskander. I was merely demonstrating why their arguments that it supported their preferred title were incorrect. However, which aspect of NC contradict NCE?
 * I’ll add that your assertion that there are multiple common names is incorrect; Israel-Hamas war sees about twice the use as the other options combined.
 * Can you clarify why you believe I’ve conflated WP:RS with WP:NPOV? BilledMammal (talk) 17:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) The guideline itself does not contradict the policy itself, but applying the guideline in the manner you suggest would contradict the policy. Under NCE, POV titles are allowed if there is a particular common name for the event; under WP:NPOVNAME, a POV name is only permitted where the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources. I've explained above why "Israel-Hamas war" does not meet the latter standard; the guideline standard ("a particular common name") is somewhat more ambiguous so it is superseded by the more specific requirements of the NC policy. Without putting words in Iskandar's mouth, I assume they are suggesting we should accordingly apply the other criteria of WP:NCE, namely, WP:NCWWW.
 * (2) the fact that Israel-Hamas war may be more commonly used does not make it the single common name; your own source review demonstrates a significant number of sources using either Israel-Gaza war or Israel-Palestine war.
 * (3) above you write that we "must" describe this as a war between Hamas and Israel because reliable sources do so. This is not sufficient to satisfy NPOV. Some reliable sources describe it this way, others do not. In such circumstances, we should opt for an NPOV title. By way of illustration, Amnesty International, an RSPSS green source, describes Israel as being guilty of apartheid; is this sufficient for us to state in wikivoice that Israel is committing the crime of apartheid? NPOV, in fact, requires that we give effect to competing viewpoints; it does not require that we ignore perspectives that are "outnumbered", so to speak. Hence the purpose of this discussion. WillowCity  (talk)  17:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) and (2) I would say that approximately twice as many as the other options combined is a significant majority of English-language sources, wouldn't you?
 * (3) In such circumstances, we should opt for an NPOV title. The NPOV title is the one that reflects the position of the majority of reliable sources (Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources). The majority holds that it is a war between Israel and Hamas, not between Israel and Gaza. Many editors have presented evidence for this, and as far as I can tell no editor has presented evidence against it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOVNAME allows for a POV name only where there is only a single common name. Here we have multiple competing names, with "Israel-Gaza war" used consistently across sources like the BBC, Guardian, etc., i.e. GREL sources and clear proof that there is no single common name across English language reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

To call it "war against Hamas" is misleading (some would say, propaganda). Wars in the primary sense take place between states, not between governments or leaders. As an example, it would be wrong to call, say, the Iraq War, a "Republican–Ba'ath war"; or the Russia–Ukraine war, a "Russia–Zelensky war". I will argue that the term "Hamas" must be removed from title altogether. It's patently obvious by now that it's not Hamas-owned properties that are being bombed by Israel but the entirety of Gaza Strip, i.e., the entire state is at war. — kashmīrī  TALK  07:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @BilledMammal: I haven't missed any of that. I disagree that there is one name that significantly outweighs all others. There are competing names, but short of an overwhelming divide in prevalence there is no common name and other criteria must be referenced. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or A. Israel and Hamas have been in various states of military conflict before, so the distinction of the date is important. See 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine compared to Russo-Ukrainian War for example; one describes a particular phase of the military conflict while the other does not. This article seems to follow the be the former. I'm not in favor of any of the new (bot proposed?) titles suggesting Israel is in a state of war with Gaza or Palestine, if no other reason than the fact the Palestine Authority - which is decidedly not at war with Israel right now - exists as a major political contender with Hamas and still claims authority over Palestine/Gaza. -- Katan gais (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is now Russian invasion of Ukraine. See RM. Options that contradict the policy, such as the arguments of opponents of Russian invasion of Ukraine, should be ignored. Parham wiki (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or A. Israel and Hamas have been in various states of military conflict before, so the distinction of the date is important. See 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine compared to Russo-Ukrainian War for example; one describes a particular phase of the military conflict while the other does not. This article seems to follow the be the former. I'm not in favor of any of the new (bot proposed?) titles suggesting Israel is in a state of war with Gaza or Palestine, if no other reason than the fact the Palestine Authority - which is decidedly not at war with Israel right now - exists as a major political contender with Hamas and still claims authority over Palestine/Gaza. -- Katan gais (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is now Russian invasion of Ukraine. See RM. Options that contradict the policy, such as the arguments of opponents of Russian invasion of Ukraine, should be ignored. Parham wiki (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I actually think "Republican–Ba'ath war" would be a vast improvement on most of what it was called at the time. (Australia joined that war, but somehow I barely knew Arab Nationalism was "a thing" until this year, even most of our soldiers seemed to think they were fighting Al-Qaeda.) But, while AUKUS et al. ended up killing half a million Iraqis, I don't think the goal was to depopulate Iraq? or render it so uninhabitable that the population is forced to resort to wandering the Siani for the next 30 to 50 years? In that case destroying the government seemed to actually be the goal? (even if that was the goal here, it would be insane, "last time de-Baath-ifiction led to ISIS, let's see what de-Hamas-ifocstion does?)


 * And one might note that South Africa's ICJ filing is not over genocidal acts against "Hamas", which is not a people, but the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole. The correct frame of reference is now affirmed in legal documents. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C as probably the most accurate among these imperfect options, even if aspects of the war take place on the Lebanese border, in the West Bank, etc. The main part of the war is against the whole territory of Gaza not specifically Hamas, so using that terminology is preferable. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * You can select a new option. Also read my comments above. Parham wiki (talk) 16:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B per WP:COMMONNAME as BilledMammal demonstrated above. No need to deviate from what the media is writing, Wikipedia policy is policy for a reason. I don't see the need for a year considering the previous Gaza conflicts went under different names. Swordman97  talk to me 03:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but the common names are all one sided, an unusual compromise is better than a biased common name. Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Adding to what I said, WP:NOYEAR supports the above point. Swordman97  talk to me 03:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but to name it unambiguously with no year, we need to get very descriptive e.g. N "Israel war with Palestine, Hezbollah, and Ansar Allah" and that's getting long? Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

unfinished draft answers
(or some other date designation with the same adversaries, I have no strong feelings about the dates.

It is definitely bigger than just Gaza, but even though there are belligerents outside Israel-Palestine they are all fighting for the existence of expansion of Palestine (or fighting against Israel doing those, if you frame it the other way) the Houthis are even flying the Palestinian flag.

"Israel-Palestine war" is used rarely, but it is the least-worst compromise between the assortment of worse options that are very one sided. e.g. "2023 Palestinian Resistance…" would be as bad as the current title.

Not just Gaza - I very much dislike the "Israel Hamas war" framing, it is a version of the story which seems to be only be told by one side? So not appropriate. But "Gaza" would be worse because there are substantial hostilities in the west bank and two way strikes on the Northern border, and now Houthis.

Requested move 23 December 2023

 * O: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Operation Swords of Iron or
 * P: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Al-Aqsa Flood and Operation Swords of Iron

(You can add other name suggestions if you think that it is appropriate) With almost a week left for this year to end, I think it is about time we start the discussion for renaming this article (Admins please don't move the article before 1/1/2024) &#32; Abo Yemen ✉  07:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Not "–present" because of WP:RELTIME, and also because it adds nothing. There is no other "YYYY Israel–Hamas war" or "Israel–Hamas war of YYYY", so per WP:PRECISE Israel–Hamas war is sufficient, and per WP:CONCISE it is best (and it's already a redirect). If there's another one at some point, the title can be taken up again at that time. (Note: in this edit, I added the 'A' and 'B' prefixes to the choices above. Mathglot (talk) 08:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for adding the prefixes!  Abo Yemen ✉  08:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot wouldn't WP:PRECISE not apply here given that there have been multiple recent conflicts between Israel and Hamas? Ergzay (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, based on WP:DUE and WP:COMMONNAME. A search of the top 100 results for "Israel–Hams War" shows almost nothing for other conflicts. The examples Bothell, Washington, Leeds North West, and M-185 (Michigan highway) are some examples where WP:OVERPRECISION makes sense, by dint of existing naming conventions for each of those cases; but that doesn't apply to 2023 Israel–Hamas war because there is no such convention that applies in this case afaik. If you can show that other conflicts come up significantly for an unbiased search, I'd have to reevaluate my conclusion. Mathglot (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B: Only name. The article Siege of Mariupol is not called Siege of Mariupol (2022) because of the Battle of Mariupol (1919). Per WP:TITLEDAB, disambiguation is only necessary when there is otherwise an actual conflict in article titles. No such conflict in titles exists. Per WP:CONCISE, concision is preferred over unnecessary precision. not only is there still no other article titled Israel–Hamas war, but even if there was, this article is unequivocally still the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Parham wiki (talk) 09:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option B for the same reason as those commenting above. Riposte97 (talk) 12:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ' Premature' and also fails to give sufficient options, such as "leave alone for now." After Jan. 1 we can determine how or if to rename this, perhaps to 2023-2024 Hamas war, which is the option I would favor after Jan 1, consistent with 2014 Gaza war on the previous major conflict. I certainly see the point of this nomination and we do want to think about renaming going forward. But right now the name is correct. Option B' is no good because there were indeed wars in 2014 etc. and it is too broad. Coretheapple (talk) 15:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Changing to E. This option was not available when I posted the comment above. Title should be left alone for the time being. Coretheapple (talk) 16:39, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option B' is no good because there were indeed wars in 2014 etc. and it is too broad. Read my comment. Parham wiki (talk) 15:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D. I'm also fine with C, though I'm not sure if the date is necessary. I was opposed to the war being titled anything after Hamas from the start and I reaffirm my opposition, even after mainstream news outlets have adopted this name. I fundamentally believe that at no point of the conflict would it be accurate for the name "Hamas" to be in the title- Hamas was not the only group to participate in the October 7 invasion, and the overwhelming majority of people killed in the conflict are not Hamas. My suggestion has always been Israel–Gaza war as it makes it clear the war is between the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole versus Israel, even if this is not the name most sources use- it is the most neutral and accurate name one can give the conflict. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 16:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with your reasoning, and if I had created the article I would have called it that. My first thought was that we are bound by WP:COMMONNAME but a Google search indicates that both are in use, with Israel-Hamas war being about 20% more popular.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  19:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I acknowledge that the name "Israel-Hamas" war is more widely used in sources. However, I believe that despite WP:COMMONNAME, going with the name "Israel-Gaza" would avoid a WP:NPOV violation.
 * I argue that these names are not interchangeable or equivalent as it doesn't fully comprehend the scope of the war. Imagine if the conflict was titled "IDF-Hamas War"- of course, this would be inaccurate, as many Israelis who were not in the IDF and were mere civilians were massacred in October 7. The same applies for this situation- Hamas militants are only a fraction of the 20,000 Gazans dead, which includes thousands of very young children who obviously can not be a part of Hamas. The name "Israel-Hamas" violates neutral point of view in that it ignores the large proportion of the war with no affiliation with Hamas, even if it is what reputable news outlets use.
 * (Getting into why most news outlets use the name "Israel-Hamas" probably goes beyond the scope of this talk page discussion.)
 * HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I strongly concur with this reasoning. AJ uses Israel-Gaza War and all the hip kids you want using Wikipedia in the future key very keenly on phrasing. Right now, we're a hummus joke. Everyone knows that's just a cherry-picked bogeyman being used to perpetuate a genocide. It doesn't say NPOV, it doesn't say global perspective, it says we are old and drink kool-aid. ClaudeReigns (talk) 09:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi has been changed page to "Israel–Hamas war" before 1 January 2024 ok Thanks.￼ Andre Farfan (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D - not specifying a date seems best as I don't think there are any wars this would be confused with and it isn't ending before the year does, and Hamas is far from the only group involved with the current fighting.  Rema goxer  (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or if it must be changed A or B - I don't have a strong opinion other than I think the existing name is fine and doesn't have any issues with it, but if it needs to be changed it should be A or B, as C/D change the meaning of the conflict. The war is against Hamas and related groups, not against the existence of Gaza. Ergzay (talk) 21:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hamas-Israel War (2023 - present) :^) Metallurgist (talk) 22:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E - the war is known by the date that it began. B is too broad and could refer to the 2014 conflict, among others.  I am also open to changing it to "2023-2024 Hamas war" after January 1. Dovidroth (talk) 06:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E. I agree that the war is known by the date it began, and there have been multiple Israel-Hamas wars. It is also, as mentioned above, premature and quite possible that a common name for the war will emerge next year. Marokwitz (talk) 10:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E (or if needed A or B), I believe that it is still early, and the conflict started in 2023 so the current isn't entirely incorrect from next year. However, this proposal combines three issues, what is the best format for the year, whether the year is needed, or whether Hamas or Gaza is more common. The controversial issue of whether to use "Hamas" or "Gaza" must be separate considering past discussions. Article title policy states the most common name is to be prioritised over the need for a NPOV name per WP:NPOVNAME. Ofc, if common use changes, I would fully support it. When 2024 comes hopefully sources can settle on a new name.  Dank Jae  18:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F I'd call it the Gaza genocide. Why not just leave the question and decide a proper name later because I don't think it'll survive as a 'war'. That is what it is shaping up to be with Netenyahu talking about the job only beginning and I estimate it would require killing a tenth of the population of Gaza to eliminate Hamas at the current rate. And they are planning to occupy it afterwards which would mean Israeli settlements pushing out the inhabitants like on the West Bank I don't know if the UN will survive this after people in the west wake up to what they are supporting. NadVolum (talk) 20:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F is a terrible choice. There is already a page for the 2023 Israeli bombing of Gaza and renaming the 2023 Israel-Hamas War article to "Gaza genocide" discounts the October 7th attack and other IDF fighting in West Bank/Lebanon just to express a political opinion. EytanMelech (talk) 00:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E. The name should stay the same, as 1. Any extra clarification of the date is not needed, and would just look bad. There is only one Israel-Hamas war in 2023. For option B, although there has only really been one direct Israel-Hamas War (this one), it still can be confused with various wars and battles in the past, like the 2014 Gaza War. C and D not only make it more confusing, but are also inaccurate, because this is a war between Israel and Hamas, not Gaza. According to their statements, Israel is not attempting to eliminate Gaza, they are attempting to eliminate Hamas. Antny08 (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E for now. I hope it will be over well before 2025, but if it isn't, then we could talk about it again in December 2024.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E I would also point out that I think for now its best. I think the move is a bit premature. Either way, I must mention that alphabetically it should be Hamas-Israel since H comes before I... Homerethegreat (talk) 06:23, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but absolutely nowhere is calling it "Hamas-Israel"? I've even seen at least one instance of "Israel-Hamas" on Al-Jazeera (not normally on team Israel), but none the other way. Irtapil (talk) 06:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Per WP:NHC, statements that contradict policy should be discounted. A, C and E Votes do not address the prevailing policy but largely make a simple statement that other wars exist. While things can change, this does not mean that they will change. For the present (and the foreseeable future), the B option is supported by policy. Also Israel–Hamas war redirects to this article. Parham wiki (talk) 06:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E; the date when the war began is clear enough for now until a common name for it emerges. Oppose B for now - I'm not convinced that it qualifies as a WP:COMMONNAME at the moment. Of course the current search results for that particular term are going to be dominated by a currently active war over past conflicts - that's how search engines work. But a quick Google Scholar search says that about 40% of the hits for the term are from 2022 or earlier; clearly it is not a precise term. Without a clear common name, we have to follow WP:CRITERIA, which requires unambiguous precision. The simple statement that other wars exist is a valid policy-based argument and, given the weak arguments otherwise presented for renaming to B, is sufficient to take that option out of the running. As an aside, the only other argument presented for B (that no other article currently exists with that title) is also spurious and not grounded in policy - WP:PRECISION does not care whether we have other articles under that name (indeed, if a name is unacceptably vague, it would be expected that we wouldn't.) What matters is whether it unambiguously identifies the article subject, which it plainly does not. --Aquillion (talk) 11:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Was it before October 7 or not? Parham wiki (talk) 12:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Even if true, 60% (plus other sources) indicate that this article is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Parham wiki (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E' per Aquillion. Andre🚐 11:50, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C or D. I got the ball rolling on the COMMONNAME move to "Israel-Hamas" very early on (10 October), but I regret that. Subsequent developments have made the title non-compliant with WP:NPOV, as reliable sources keep noting the extent to which this war is affecting all Gazans, all areas of Gaza, and destroying huge pans of Gazan civil society, not just Hamas members. I doubt the majority of the Gaza-related contents in this article is about Hamas itself (vs. other Gazans), so the title no longer even matches the content. I also agree with HadesTTW's reasoning. I see more WP:AND-related arguments above; here's my previous argument against them. DFlhb (talk) 12:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not necessarily an NPOV violation to omit the harm accruing to civilians/infrastructure in one polity. To my knowledge, that's never been a major consideration in naming conflicts, cf belligerents. Riposte97 (talk) 13:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support B as most reported, most accurate, and the war isn't going to end in 5 days, unfortunately. 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 14:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B, additionally that is what the ITN puts it as. 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 14:10, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * A, as the war will no longer be isolated to just 2023 once the year ends. B if WP:COMMONNAME shows that "Israel-Hamas war" needs no date specified. A move from E is necessary once the year ends though. - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D or C per Article titles. It is important to note that there are 5 CRITERIA for deciding on an article title: (1) Recognizability, (2) Naturalness, (3) Precision, (4) Concision and (5) Consistency. Despite the fact that everyone keeps citing it like it is the full expression of our policy on article titles, WP:COMMONNAME is only a small aspect of the above 5 criteria. COMMONNAME only captures recognizability and perhaps naturalness. In considering the title for this article, COMMONNAME doesn't account for precision and consistency.
 * It is imprecise to describe this war as between Israel and Hamas. Despite the false claims by the Zionist entity, the death toll is indiputable evidence that the war is against all of Gaza. If this was just a war with Hamas, 20,000 deaths would mean the entire strength of Hamas would have been destroyed.
 * It is also inconsistent with the many articles with "Gaza–Israel" in the title. Per WP:AT, A good Wikipedia article title... is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. This article and its children are the only titles that include an organization Hamas hyphenated with a country Israel. The current title is inconsistent with May 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes, 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes, November 2019 Gaza–Israel clashes, May 2019 Gaza–Israel clashes, March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes, March 2010 Israel–Gaza clashes, and 2006 Gaza–Israel conflict ...
 * Even if we inappropriately only considered COMMONNAME, there is no clear evidence that Hamas is part of the common name used for the war. There is just as much evidence that Gaza is used as the common name in reliable sources. --- C &amp; C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C per C&C, but D is also acceptable per WP:NCE. I would emphasize as well that WP:COMMONNAME is specifically subject to the requirement of NPOV (like everything else on Wikipedia). The policy states: Neutrality is also considered; see § Neutrality in article titles, below. WP:NPOVNAME allows for a POV title only where the subject is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources (emphasis added). Here, "Israel–Hamas war" may be used by a preponderance of sources, but it is not the single common name, nor is it demonstrably used by a significant majority of sources, and many of the sources that do use it do so alongside other names. The fact that it is the preferred name of one party to the conflict should give us pause.
 * Some RS that use Israel–Gaza war (whether exclusively or in addition to I-H war): the BBC, ABC, Al Jazeera, WaPo, The Guardian. Israel–Gaza war is more internally consistent with our other article titles, and there are other armed groups involved, making the current title inaccurate and simultaneously imprecise and overprecise (frankly, even F would be more accurate than the current title.) WillowCity  (talk)  00:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Opposed to using 'present' as already explained above and oppose 'gaza' per CommonName in RS. Yeoutie (talk) 02:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support B according to WP:COMMONNAME, and having in mind that this war will not be finished before the onset of 2024. —  Sundostund  mppria  (talk / contribs) 09:31, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Per WP:PRECISE, WP:CONCISE, and WP:COMMONNAME. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C. I agree completely with WillowCity above, WP:COMMONNAME (a policy about using recognisable names as opposed to overly formal ones) is being misapplied here as per usual. The problem with D is that there have been several other "Israel–Gaza wars" such as those 2008–9, 2012, 2014 etc. Oppose all the others on grounds of NPOV. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 16:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C. I concur with the points raised by WillowCity and filelakeshoe. The title “Israel–Gaza war (2023–present)” seems to be a more accurate and recognisable representation of the situation as it encapsulates the broader impact of the war on the entire region of Gaza, not just Hamas. This is in line with WP:NPOV, which emphasizes neutrality and fairness in representation. Furthermore, the addition of the year and “present” provides a clear timeline of the ongoing conflict. This is crucial for historical accuracy and context, especially considering the previous “Israel–Gaza wars”. – Ainty Painty (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * E. There have been man wars and battles following the Battle of Gaza in 2007. Overthrow-dictator (talk) 00:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B or D. As others have noted, I agree that "Israel-Hamas War" would be the clearest, most concise, and precise new name for the page that would likely not need to be changed again for the foreseeable future. I still believe that this is the most commonly used name for the war in news media at present. "Israel-Gaza War" is an acceptable alternate, however I believe it may be too similar in name to "Gaza-Israel conflict" and may cause confusion when searching. Option E is out of the question to me, article name needs to change. At a later date if historical consensus is reached, Option F may be considered. I also suggest capitalization of the word War as in Iraq War and Six-Day War. forerunner45 (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B or A, the war is likely to continue in 2024, so the current name should be changed. Alaexis¿question? 07:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B — Israel–Hamas war, because it is a concise and common name that is unlikely to be confused with other conflicts. The "about" template which is already at the top of the page also directs those who were looking for different articles.
 * If a variant of "Israel–Gaza war" is used for this article, a name which I find more neutral but less common, I believe "2023" should be added to the start (2023 Israel–Gaza war). FunLater (talk) 17:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B: As predicted, this will drag on into at least 2024, so it is time to drop the year.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 19:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option C: per the same reasons as this similar previous move discussion in that the current title is both inaccurate or imprecise since the conflict has metastasized to embroil all of Gaza; that "Hamas" is not a place and so does not produce a coherent WP:NCWWW title; that the title remains inconsistent with the broader "Israel-Gaza conflict" series of pages on Wikipedia; and due to the lack of a clean-cut commonname case for the use of the current title - given the widespread use of the "Israel-Gaza" alternative by reliable sources, including the BBC, Guardian, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C. I wouldn't mind Option B despite being a little bit confusing, but Option E wouldn't fit properly since the war will definitely still happen next year. I choose option C because the conflict has been going on for decades, only for it to significantly escalate in 2023. Quake1234 (talk) 12:24, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B if we are abiding by Wikipedia guidelines, namely common name. I am open to adding to it "2023-present" but I think that it would make it just sound awkward.
 * E The war began this year, and it is the only Hamas-Israel war in 2023. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * G or H or J - The least-worst option is "Israel-Palestine war" with some sort of date designation, but I have no strong opinions about how we do the dates. I added K to the list as well, because I only care about how we describe the adversaries, but I think leaving it undated would be too confusing? Irtapil (talk) 02:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Because it is not just Gaza - I very much dislike the "Israel Hamas war" framing, it is a version of the story which seems to be only be told by one side? So not appropriate. But "Gaza" would not by much of an improvement because there are substantial hostilities in the West Bank, and two way strikes on the northern border (two Australians got killed by an IDF airstrike in Lebanon this week), and Houthis in the Red Sea. Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * L 2023–24 Israel–Hamas war. "Israel-Hamas war" was chosen thanks to being the name used by RS, and it still is the name used by RS. Removing the date is too vague because Israel and Hamas have been engaged in a longer-term conflict for decades which could be described as a "war". The current title will become blatantly incorrect in two days' time, and there is no consensus for a replacement, so the best option is the least change possible to the current title whilst recognizing that the war has extended into 2024. Chessrat  ( talk, contributions ) 05:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B, but would also support any other form of "Israel-Hamas war". In this move request we consider three different names; Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Gaza war, and Israel-Palestine war. Of these three, in the past day news sources have used:
 * Israel-Hamas war approximately 140 times (and approximately another 40 using Hamas-Israel war)
 * Israel-Palestine war approximately 30 times (and another 3 using Palestine-Israel war)
 * Israel-Gaza war approximately 60 times (and approximately another 10 using Gaza-Israel war)
 * This usage shows that a significant majority of sources use Israel-Hamas war and thus WP:COMMONNAME is met.
 * For us to ignore this evidence there would need to be a strong argument of other issues with the title, but only two arguments have been presented; that the name is not neutral, and that the name is inconsistent.
 * The first argument has generally been asserted without evidence, and in many cases without argument - the closest we have to an argument for it is that the current name ignores the large proportion of the war with no affiliation with Hamas. I don't agree with that; Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip and thus all inhabitants are affiliated with it. In addition, the name is consistent with titles such as War against the Islamic State.
 * The second argument is also weak; looking at Template:Campaignbox Gaza–Israel conflict there is no consistency in article titles and thus consistency is not an argument to move this one.
 * As such, we are obliged to follow the reliable sources, and that means using B or some variant on it; my personal preference is for B, as it is the most concise while still abiding by the rest of WP:CRITERIA. BilledMammal (talk) 05:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @BilledMammal: I would respectfully request that you strike it recuse yourself from the statement that "Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip and thus all inhabitants are affiliated with it." - this is the same inaccurate generalization that involved politicians have made in recent statements of genocidal intent, and I sincerely hope that this was just a poorly wrought wording. On the substance, it has been a long while since Israel's war has been prosecuted solely against Hamas, if it ever was, and there remains, yes, a glaring issue in the unnatural and inconsistent mismatch between "Israel" and "Hamas" as comparable nouns, not least in the basic failing per WP:NCWWW by way of "Hamas" not being a geography, but a government actor within a political system akin to "Likud" on the opposing side. You make a comparison with a title involving Islamic State, but that is not a good comparison. This is not a "war against" title, but a hyphenated "like for like", geography "X–Y" title (or should be). At the most basic level, the allusion to ISIS is a POV one, having come straight from the lips of the likes of Netanyahu, but the similitude stops there. There is no less similitude between "Israel" and "Hamas" in the sense that both have been accused of terroristic behaviour. Moving to a broader point about geographical naturalness in the title, it is frankly absurd not to have the actual geography involved in the war, "Gaza", in the title at this point given that this is where almost all of it has taken place. This was never a conflict of precision strikes against Hamas (it would likely not have devolved into a "war" had it been so); it has always been a highly indiscriminate campaign of bombardment and more personal acts of violence – one which has resulted in the total devastation of the Gaza Strip alongside the murder and starvation of a grossly disproportionate count of the inhabitants of Gaza ... Now to the extent that the Genocide Convention has been invoked. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As a general point; NPOV isn't what we think is neutral, it's what reflects reliable sources on a topic. If reliable sources on a topic describe this as a war between Hamas (and other militant groups) and Israel, declining to describe it as a war between Gaza and Israel, then to comply with NPOV we must describe this as a war between Hamas and Israel, including in our titles; to describe it as a war between Gaza and Israel would be an NPOV violation.
 * Regarding a government actor within a political system akin to "Likud" on the opposing side: That isn't an accurate comparison. With Hamas and the de-facto Gazan State, the lines between Party and State are blurred, but with Likud and Israel are not.
 * This blurring is particularly strong when we consider the composition of the armed forces. In Israel, Israel has an army, Likud does not. In Gaza, Hamas has an army, Gaza does not, and as such Israel isn't fighting Gaza. Instead, Israel is fighting Hamas in Gaza, making the current title accurate and your preferred title inaccurate - which explains why reliable sources prefer the current title.
 * Regarding the comparison with a title involving Islamic State it demonstrates that it can be appropriate to refer to the party that controls the territory. BilledMammal (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * NPOV requires we respect all significant views; it doesn't mean that majoritarian headline language makes for the best page title. Of the available options in currency, this page currently sits at the only one that fails to outline the basic geography of the conflict, per WP:NCWWW. And geography is emphasized for good reason. Many events in Gaza do not involve Hamas. A source about the bombing of the church of St. Porphyrios need make no mention of Hamas, but it would be highly unlikely to exclude "Gaza" as a location. Beyond headlines, and we indeed ignore headlines, per WP:HEADLINE, the stories about this war that mention Gaza will significantly outnumber those that mention Hamas. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You're asking the wrong question; you're asking where reliable sources say the war is taking place. What you need to ask is who reliable sources say the war is taking place between.
 * In response to that question, most reliable sources say Israel and Hamas, sometimes with the addition of other militant groups - and this isn't, I note, something limited to headlines. Reliable sources consistently call it the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose, and they consistently characterize it as a war between Israel and Hamas in prose. BilledMammal (talk) 12:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources obliviously don't refer to it as a war between Israel and Hamas in all of the litany of instances where Israel bombs something and there isn't any evidence to back up its claims that it is attacking something military. 60% of Gaza's houses were never anything but civilian property. Which RS routinely refer to it as the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose? More than anything this appears to be more of a story tag or shorthand headline prefix than a prose term. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources obliviously don't refer to it as a war between Israel and Hamas in all of the litany of instances where Israel bombs something and there isn't any evidence to back up its claims that it is attacking something military. Can you clarify the point you are trying to make here?
 * Which RS routinely refer to it as the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose? To start, most of these hundreds of scholarly sources; I think there are enough sources there to satisfy your request? BilledMammal (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You said consistently; I said routinely - a raw search is nothing but a scattershot and shows neither. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In regards to WP:NCWWW, you have overlooked the first sentence in that section, which says If there is an established, common name for an event, use that name. There is an established common name for this event, Israel-Hamas war.
 * You’ve also overlooked the last section of that guideline, WP:NCENPOV, which tells us if there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view. I disagree that there is a POV issue with the current title, but even if there was the guideline you have been referencing tells us to use it. BilledMammal (talk) 16:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The WP:NCE guideline has to be read in light of the overarching policy, WP:NC, which takes precedence over the guideline in the event of a contradiction. I've explained above why the WP:COMMONNAME argument is a red herring; here, there are multiple names in common use, and accordingly, we have to err on the side of NPOV. Iskandar323 has thoroughly explained why the current title is POV. As well, you seem to be conflating the policy on WP:RS with WP:NPOV; these are two different policies (albeit with some overlap). WillowCity  (talk)  17:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn’t the editor who raised NCE; that was Iskander. I was merely demonstrating why their arguments that it supported their preferred title were incorrect. However, which aspect of NC contradict NCE?
 * I’ll add that your assertion that there are multiple common names is incorrect; Israel-Hamas war sees about twice the use as the other options combined.
 * Can you clarify why you believe I’ve conflated WP:RS with WP:NPOV? BilledMammal (talk) 17:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) The guideline itself does not contradict the policy itself, but applying the guideline in the manner you suggest would contradict the policy. Under NCE, POV titles are allowed if there is a particular common name for the event; under WP:NPOVNAME, a POV name is only permitted where the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources. I've explained above why "Israel-Hamas war" does not meet the latter standard; the guideline standard ("a particular common name") is somewhat more ambiguous so it is superseded by the more specific requirements of the NC policy. Without putting words in Iskandar's mouth, I assume they are suggesting we should accordingly apply the other criteria of WP:NCE, namely, WP:NCWWW.
 * (2) the fact that Israel-Hamas war may be more commonly used does not make it the single common name; your own source review demonstrates a significant number of sources using either Israel-Gaza war or Israel-Palestine war.
 * (3) above you write that we "must" describe this as a war between Hamas and Israel because reliable sources do so. This is not sufficient to satisfy NPOV. Some reliable sources describe it this way, others do not. In such circumstances, we should opt for an NPOV title. By way of illustration, Amnesty International, an RSPSS green source, describes Israel as being guilty of apartheid; is this sufficient for us to state in wikivoice that Israel is committing the crime of apartheid? NPOV, in fact, requires that we give effect to competing viewpoints; it does not require that we ignore perspectives that are "outnumbered", so to speak. Hence the purpose of this discussion. WillowCity  (talk)  17:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) and (2) I would say that approximately twice as many as the other options combined is a significant majority of English-language sources, wouldn't you?
 * (3) In such circumstances, we should opt for an NPOV title. The NPOV title is the one that reflects the position of the majority of reliable sources (Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources). The majority holds that it is a war between Israel and Hamas, not between Israel and Gaza. Many editors have presented evidence for this, and as far as I can tell no editor has presented evidence against it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOVNAME allows for a POV name only where there is only a single common name. Here we have multiple competing names, with "Israel-Gaza war" used consistently across sources like the BBC, Guardian, etc., i.e. GREL sources and clear proof that there is no single common name across English language reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

To call it "war against Hamas" is misleading (some would say, propaganda). Wars in the primary sense take place between states, not between governments or leaders. As an example, it would be wrong to call, say, the Iraq War, a "Republican–Ba'ath war"; or the Russia–Ukraine war, a "Russia–Zelensky war". I will argue that the term "Hamas" must be removed from title altogether. It's patently obvious by now that it's not Hamas-owned properties that are being bombed by Israel but the entirety of Gaza Strip, i.e., the entire state is at war. — kashmīrī  TALK  07:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @BilledMammal: I haven't missed any of that. I disagree that there is one name that significantly outweighs all others. There are competing names, but short of an overwhelming divide in prevalence there is no common name and other criteria must be referenced. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or A. Israel and Hamas have been in various states of military conflict before, so the distinction of the date is important. See 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine compared to Russo-Ukrainian War for example; one describes a particular phase of the military conflict while the other does not. This article seems to follow the be the former. I'm not in favor of any of the new (bot proposed?) titles suggesting Israel is in a state of war with Gaza or Palestine, if no other reason than the fact the Palestine Authority - which is decidedly not at war with Israel right now - exists as a major political contender with Hamas and still claims authority over Palestine/Gaza. -- Katan gais (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is now Russian invasion of Ukraine. See RM. Options that contradict the policy, such as the arguments of opponents of Russian invasion of Ukraine, should be ignored. Parham wiki (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or A. Israel and Hamas have been in various states of military conflict before, so the distinction of the date is important. See 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine compared to Russo-Ukrainian War for example; one describes a particular phase of the military conflict while the other does not. This article seems to follow the be the former. I'm not in favor of any of the new (bot proposed?) titles suggesting Israel is in a state of war with Gaza or Palestine, if no other reason than the fact the Palestine Authority - which is decidedly not at war with Israel right now - exists as a major political contender with Hamas and still claims authority over Palestine/Gaza. -- Katan gais (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is now Russian invasion of Ukraine. See RM. Options that contradict the policy, such as the arguments of opponents of Russian invasion of Ukraine, should be ignored. Parham wiki (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I actually think "Republican–Ba'ath war" would be a vast improvement on most of what it was called at the time. (Australia joined that war, but somehow I barely knew Arab Nationalism was "a thing" until this year, even most of our soldiers seemed to think they were fighting Al-Qaeda.) But, while AUKUS et al. ended up killing half a million Iraqis, I don't think the goal was to depopulate Iraq? or render it so uninhabitable that the population is forced to resort to wandering the Siani for the next 30 to 50 years? In that case destroying the government seemed to actually be the goal? (even if that was the goal here, it would be insane, "last time de-Baath-ifiction led to ISIS, let's see what de-Hamas-ifocstion does?)


 * And one might note that South Africa's ICJ filing is not over genocidal acts against "Hamas", which is not a people, but the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole. The correct frame of reference is now affirmed in legal documents. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * If your point is that "only at war with Hamas" is a lie, then I definitely agree.
 * But the genocide in Gaza is only one of the things happening in the war. e.g. (sorry I can't think of a less controversial example) The Holocaust was an event that happened during WWII. It would be inaccurate to say that the bombings of Hiroshima, or Tokyo, or London, or Dresden were part of the Holocaust, but all those events were part of WWII (genocides very often happen during war, but there aren't any less controversial examples I know enough about to use as an example).
 * Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C as probably the most accurate among these imperfect options, even if aspects of the war take place on the Lebanese border, in the West Bank, etc. The main part of the war is against the whole territory of Gaza not specifically Hamas, so using that terminology is preferable. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But C really doesn't work. "Gaza" is just a place and it's a small place that really doesn't describe the geography of the war.
 * This week two citizens of my country got killed by an IDF airstrike in Lebanon. Some journalists have been killed there too, and a lot of other people. And the IDF have been attacking the west bank this whole time. The war is in Israel and everywhere surrounding it, trying to describe that gets a laundry list (Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Red Sea, Lebanon, Syria), but the war is about Palestine vs Israel.
 * The opposing sides either want the region "from the river to the sea" to be all Israel or all Palestine.
 * The Houthis have joined the war flying a Palestinian flag. They and Hezbollah have both joined for Palestine / against Israel rather than any local goals in their own territory.
 * Hamas (and the PFLP and DFLP) are all Palestinian Nationalists, not "Gazan Nationalists". The thing they are fighting for is Palestine.
 * I don't know of PIJ are nationalists? but their militant wing Saraya Al Quds translates as "Jerusalem brigades" (a city not in Gaza). The insignia of every group involved shows a map of all of Palestine (which, by their definition, includes Israel, but interestingly excludes the Gollan Heights).
 * Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You can select a new option. Also read my comments above. Parham wiki (talk) 16:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B per WP:COMMONNAME as BilledMammal demonstrated above. No need to deviate from what the media is writing, Wikipedia policy is policy for a reason. I don't see the need for a year considering the previous Gaza conflicts went under different names. Swordman97  talk to me 03:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but the common names are all one sided, an unusual compromise is better than a biased common name. Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Adding to what I said, WP:NOYEAR supports the above point. Swordman97  talk to me 03:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but to name it unambiguously with no year, we need to get very descriptive e.g. N "Israel war with Palestine, Hezbollah, and Ansar Allah" and that's getting long? Irtapil (talk) 09:44, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 23 December 2023

 * O: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Operation Swords of Iron or
 * P: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Al-Aqsa Flood and Operation Swords of Iron or
 * Q1: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Al-Aqsa Flood or
 * Q2: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Tufan Al-Aqsa or
 * Q3: 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Toofan Al-Aqsa

(You can add other name suggestions if you think that it is appropriate) With almost a week left for this year to end, I think it is about time we start the discussion for renaming this article (Admins please don't move the article before 1/1/2024) &#32; Abo Yemen ✉  07:23, 23 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Not "–present" because of WP:RELTIME, and also because it adds nothing. There is no other "YYYY Israel–Hamas war" or "Israel–Hamas war of YYYY", so per WP:PRECISE Israel–Hamas war is sufficient, and per WP:CONCISE it is best (and it's already a redirect). If there's another one at some point, the title can be taken up again at that time. (Note: in this edit, I added the 'A' and 'B' prefixes to the choices above. Mathglot (talk) 08:18, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for adding the prefixes!  Abo Yemen ✉  08:25, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @Mathglot wouldn't WP:PRECISE not apply here given that there have been multiple recent conflicts between Israel and Hamas? Ergzay (talk) 05:16, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily, based on WP:DUE and WP:COMMONNAME. A search of the top 100 results for "Israel–Hams War" shows almost nothing for other conflicts. The examples Bothell, Washington, Leeds North West, and M-185 (Michigan highway) are some examples where WP:OVERPRECISION makes sense, by dint of existing naming conventions for each of those cases; but that doesn't apply to 2023 Israel–Hamas war because there is no such convention that applies in this case afaik. If you can show that other conflicts come up significantly for an unbiased search, I'd have to reevaluate my conclusion. Mathglot (talk) 11:04, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B: Only name. The article Siege of Mariupol is not called Siege of Mariupol (2022) because of the Battle of Mariupol (1919). Per WP:TITLEDAB, disambiguation is only necessary when there is otherwise an actual conflict in article titles. No such conflict in titles exists. Per WP:CONCISE, concision is preferred over unnecessary precision. not only is there still no other article titled Israel–Hamas war, but even if there was, this article is unequivocally still the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Parham wiki (talk) 09:30, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option B for the same reason as those commenting above. Riposte97 (talk) 12:09, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ' Premature' and also fails to give sufficient options, such as "leave alone for now." After Jan. 1 we can determine how or if to rename this, perhaps to 2023-2024 Hamas war, which is the option I would favor after Jan 1, consistent with 2014 Gaza war on the previous major conflict. I certainly see the point of this nomination and we do want to think about renaming going forward. But right now the name is correct. Option B' is no good because there were indeed wars in 2014 etc. and it is too broad. Coretheapple (talk) 15:47, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Changing to E. This option was not available when I posted the comment above. Title should be left alone for the time being. Coretheapple (talk) 16:39, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option B' is no good because there were indeed wars in 2014 etc. and it is too broad. Read my comment. Parham wiki (talk) 15:51, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D. I'm also fine with C, though I'm not sure if the date is necessary. I was opposed to the war being titled anything after Hamas from the start and I reaffirm my opposition, even after mainstream news outlets have adopted this name. I fundamentally believe that at no point of the conflict would it be accurate for the name "Hamas" to be in the title- Hamas was not the only group to participate in the October 7 invasion, and the overwhelming majority of people killed in the conflict are not Hamas. My suggestion has always been Israel–Gaza war as it makes it clear the war is between the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole versus Israel, even if this is not the name most sources use- it is the most neutral and accurate name one can give the conflict. HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 16:15, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree with your reasoning, and if I had created the article I would have called it that. My first thought was that we are bound by WP:COMMONNAME but a Google search indicates that both are in use, with Israel-Hamas war being about 20% more popular.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  19:19, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I acknowledge that the name "Israel-Hamas" war is more widely used in sources. However, I believe that despite WP:COMMONNAME, going with the name "Israel-Gaza" would avoid a WP:NPOV violation.
 * I argue that these names are not interchangeable or equivalent as it doesn't fully comprehend the scope of the war. Imagine if the conflict was titled "IDF-Hamas War"- of course, this would be inaccurate, as many Israelis who were not in the IDF and were mere civilians were massacred in October 7. The same applies for this situation- Hamas militants are only a fraction of the 20,000 Gazans dead, which includes thousands of very young children who obviously can not be a part of Hamas. The name "Israel-Hamas" violates neutral point of view in that it ignores the large proportion of the war with no affiliation with Hamas, even if it is what reputable news outlets use.
 * (Getting into why most news outlets use the name "Israel-Hamas" probably goes beyond the scope of this talk page discussion.)
 * HadesTTW (he/him • talk) 06:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I strongly concur with this reasoning. AJ uses Israel-Gaza War and all the hip kids you want using Wikipedia in the future key very keenly on phrasing. Right now, we're a hummus joke. Everyone knows that's just a cherry-picked bogeyman being used to perpetuate a genocide. It doesn't say NPOV, it doesn't say global perspective, it says we are old and drink kool-aid. ClaudeReigns (talk) 09:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi has been changed page to "Israel–Hamas war" before 1 January 2024 ok Thanks.￼ Andre Farfan (talk) 22:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D - not specifying a date seems best as I don't think there are any wars this would be confused with and it isn't ending before the year does, and Hamas is far from the only group involved with the current fighting.  Rema goxer  (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or if it must be changed A or B - I don't have a strong opinion other than I think the existing name is fine and doesn't have any issues with it, but if it needs to be changed it should be A or B, as C/D change the meaning of the conflict. The war is against Hamas and related groups, not against the existence of Gaza. Ergzay (talk) 21:52, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Hamas-Israel War (2023 - present) :^) Metallurgist (talk) 22:58, 24 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E - the war is known by the date that it began. B is too broad and could refer to the 2014 conflict, among others.  I am also open to changing it to "2023-2024 Hamas war" after January 1. Dovidroth (talk) 06:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E. I agree that the war is known by the date it began, and there have been multiple Israel-Hamas wars. It is also, as mentioned above, premature and quite possible that a common name for the war will emerge next year. Marokwitz (talk) 10:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E (or if needed A or B), I believe that it is still early, and the conflict started in 2023 so the current isn't entirely incorrect from next year. However, this proposal combines three issues, what is the best format for the year, whether the year is needed, or whether Hamas or Gaza is more common. The controversial issue of whether to use "Hamas" or "Gaza" must be separate considering past discussions. Article title policy states the most common name is to be prioritised over the need for a NPOV name per WP:NPOVNAME. Ofc, if common use changes, I would fully support it. When 2024 comes hopefully sources can settle on a new name.  Dank Jae  18:24, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F I'd call it the Gaza genocide. Why not just leave the question and decide a proper name later because I don't think it'll survive as a 'war'. That is what it is shaping up to be with Netenyahu talking about the job only beginning and I estimate it would require killing a tenth of the population of Gaza to eliminate Hamas at the current rate. And they are planning to occupy it afterwards which would mean Israeli settlements pushing out the inhabitants like on the West Bank I don't know if the UN will survive this after people in the west wake up to what they are supporting. NadVolum (talk) 20:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
 * F is a terrible choice. There is already a page for the 2023 Israeli bombing of Gaza and renaming the 2023 Israel-Hamas War article to "Gaza genocide" discounts the October 7th attack and other IDF fighting in West Bank/Lebanon just to express a political opinion. EytanMelech (talk) 00:31, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E. The name should stay the same, as 1. Any extra clarification of the date is not needed, and would just look bad. There is only one Israel-Hamas war in 2023. For option B, although there has only really been one direct Israel-Hamas War (this one), it still can be confused with various wars and battles in the past, like the 2014 Gaza War. C and D not only make it more confusing, but are also inaccurate, because this is a war between Israel and Hamas, not Gaza. According to their statements, Israel is not attempting to eliminate Gaza, they are attempting to eliminate Hamas. Antny08 (talk) 02:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E for now. I hope it will be over well before 2025, but if it isn't, then we could talk about it again in December 2024.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E I would also point out that I think for now its best. I think the move is a bit premature. Either way, I must mention that alphabetically it should be Hamas-Israel since H comes before I... Homerethegreat (talk) 06:23, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but absolutely nowhere is calling it "Hamas-Israel"? I've even seen at least one instance of "Israel-Hamas" on Al-Jazeera (not normally on team Israel), but none the other way. Irtapil (talk) 06:29, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Per WP:NHC, statements that contradict policy should be discounted. A, C and E Votes do not address the prevailing policy but largely make a simple statement that other wars exist. While things can change, this does not mean that they will change. For the present (and the foreseeable future), the B option is supported by policy. Also Israel–Hamas war redirects to this article. Parham wiki (talk) 06:46, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E; the date when the war began is clear enough for now until a common name for it emerges. Oppose B for now - I'm not convinced that it qualifies as a WP:COMMONNAME at the moment. Of course the current search results for that particular term are going to be dominated by a currently active war over past conflicts - that's how search engines work. But a quick Google Scholar search says that about 40% of the hits for the term are from 2022 or earlier; clearly it is not a precise term. Without a clear common name, we have to follow WP:CRITERIA, which requires unambiguous precision. The simple statement that other wars exist is a valid policy-based argument and, given the weak arguments otherwise presented for renaming to B, is sufficient to take that option out of the running. As an aside, the only other argument presented for B (that no other article currently exists with that title) is also spurious and not grounded in policy - WP:PRECISION does not care whether we have other articles under that name (indeed, if a name is unacceptably vague, it would be expected that we wouldn't.) What matters is whether it unambiguously identifies the article subject, which it plainly does not. --Aquillion (talk) 11:45, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Was it before October 7 or not? Parham wiki (talk) 12:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Even if true, 60% (plus other sources) indicate that this article is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Parham wiki (talk) 12:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E' per Aquillion. Andre🚐 11:50, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C or D. I got the ball rolling on the COMMONNAME move to "Israel-Hamas" very early on (10 October), but I regret that. Subsequent developments have made the title non-compliant with WP:NPOV, as reliable sources keep noting the extent to which this war is affecting all Gazans, all areas of Gaza, and destroying huge pans of Gazan civil society, not just Hamas members. I doubt the majority of the Gaza-related contents in this article is about Hamas itself (vs. other Gazans), so the title no longer even matches the content. I also agree with HadesTTW's reasoning. I see more WP:AND-related arguments above; here's my previous argument against them. DFlhb (talk) 12:06, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not necessarily an NPOV violation to omit the harm accruing to civilians/infrastructure in one polity. To my knowledge, that's never been a major consideration in naming conflicts, cf belligerents. Riposte97 (talk) 13:05, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support B as most reported, most accurate, and the war isn't going to end in 5 days, unfortunately. 𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 14:07, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B, additionally that is what the ITN puts it as. <span style="background: #ffcc00; ">𝕸𝖗 𝕽𝖊𝖆𝖉𝖎𝖓𝖌 𝕿𝖚𝖗𝖙𝖑𝖊 🇮🇱🇮🇱🇮🇱 ☎️ 📄 14:10, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * A, as the war will no longer be isolated to just 2023 once the year ends. B if WP:COMMONNAME shows that "Israel-Hamas war" needs no date specified. A move from E is necessary once the year ends though. - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 14:40, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
 * D or C per Article titles. It is important to note that there are 5 CRITERIA for deciding on an article title: (1) Recognizability, (2) Naturalness, (3) Precision, (4) Concision and (5) Consistency. Despite the fact that everyone keeps citing it like it is the full expression of our policy on article titles, WP:COMMONNAME is only a small aspect of the above 5 criteria. COMMONNAME only captures recognizability and perhaps naturalness. In considering the title for this article, COMMONNAME doesn't account for precision and consistency.
 * It is imprecise to describe this war as between Israel and Hamas. Despite the false claims by the Zionist entity, the death toll is indiputable evidence that the war is against all of Gaza. If this was just a war with Hamas, 20,000 deaths would mean the entire strength of Hamas would have been destroyed.
 * It is also inconsistent with the many articles with "Gaza–Israel" in the title. Per WP:AT, A good Wikipedia article title... is consistent with the pattern of similar articles' titles. This article and its children are the only titles that include an organization Hamas hyphenated with a country Israel. The current title is inconsistent with May 2023 Gaza–Israel clashes, 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes, November 2019 Gaza–Israel clashes, May 2019 Gaza–Israel clashes, March 2012 Gaza–Israel clashes, March 2010 Israel–Gaza clashes, and 2006 Gaza–Israel conflict ...
 * Even if we inappropriately only considered COMMONNAME, there is no clear evidence that Hamas is part of the common name used for the war. There is just as much evidence that Gaza is used as the common name in reliable sources. --- C &amp; C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:00, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C per C&C, but D is also acceptable per WP:NCE. I would emphasize as well that WP:COMMONNAME is specifically subject to the requirement of NPOV (like everything else on Wikipedia). The policy states: Neutrality is also considered; see § Neutrality in article titles, below. WP:NPOVNAME allows for a POV title only where the subject is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources (emphasis added). Here, "Israel–Hamas war" may be used by a preponderance of sources, but it is not the single common name, nor is it demonstrably used by a significant majority of sources, and many of the sources that do use it do so alongside other names. The fact that it is the preferred name of one party to the conflict should give us pause.
 * Some RS that use Israel–Gaza war (whether exclusively or in addition to I-H war): the BBC, ABC, Al Jazeera, WaPo, The Guardian. Israel–Gaza war is more internally consistent with our other article titles, and there are other armed groups involved, making the current title inaccurate and simultaneously imprecise and overprecise (frankly, even F would be more accurate than the current title.) WillowCity  <sup style="color: #9932CC;">(talk)  00:20, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Opposed to using 'present' as already explained above and oppose 'gaza' per CommonName in RS. Yeoutie (talk) 02:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support B according to WP:COMMONNAME, and having in mind that this war will not be finished before the onset of 2024. —  Sundostund  mppria  (talk / contribs) 09:31, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B. Per WP:PRECISE, WP:CONCISE, and WP:COMMONNAME. -- Cdjp1 (talk) 14:59, 27 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C. I agree completely with WillowCity above, WP:COMMONNAME (a policy about using recognisable names as opposed to overly formal ones) is being misapplied here as per usual. The problem with D is that there have been several other "Israel–Gaza wars" such as those 2008–9, 2012, 2014 etc. Oppose all the others on grounds of NPOV. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 16:48, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C. I concur with the points raised by WillowCity and filelakeshoe. The title “Israel–Gaza war (2023–present)” seems to be a more accurate and recognisable representation of the situation as it encapsulates the broader impact of the war on the entire region of Gaza, not just Hamas. This is in line with WP:NPOV, which emphasizes neutrality and fairness in representation. Furthermore, the addition of the year and “present” provides a clear timeline of the ongoing conflict. This is crucial for historical accuracy and context, especially considering the previous “Israel–Gaza wars”. – Ainty Painty (talk) 17:26, 27 December 2023 (UTC)


 * E. There have been man wars and battles following the Battle of Gaza in 2007. Overthrow-dictator (talk) 00:32, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B or D. As others have noted, I agree that "Israel-Hamas War" would be the clearest, most concise, and precise new name for the page that would likely not need to be changed again for the foreseeable future. I still believe that this is the most commonly used name for the war in news media at present. "Israel-Gaza War" is an acceptable alternate, however I believe it may be too similar in name to "Gaza-Israel conflict" and may cause confusion when searching. Option E is out of the question to me, article name needs to change. At a later date if historical consensus is reached, Option F may be considered. I also suggest capitalization of the word War as in Iraq War and Six-Day War. forerunner45 (talk) 01:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B or A, the war is likely to continue in 2024, so the current name should be changed. Alaexis¿question? 07:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B — Israel–Hamas war, because it is a concise and common name that is unlikely to be confused with other conflicts. The "about" template which is already at the top of the page also directs those who were looking for different articles.
 * If a variant of "Israel–Gaza war" is used for this article, a name which I find more neutral but less common, I believe "2023" should be added to the start (2023 Israel–Gaza war). FunLater (talk) 17:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B: As predicted, this will drag on into at least 2024, so it is time to drop the year.-- ♦Ian Ma c M♦  (talk to me) 19:30, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Option C: per the same reasons as this similar previous move discussion in that the current title is both inaccurate or imprecise since the conflict has metastasized to embroil all of Gaza; that "Hamas" is not a place and so does not produce a coherent WP:NCWWW title; that the title remains inconsistent with the broader "Israel-Gaza conflict" series of pages on Wikipedia; and due to the lack of a clean-cut commonname case for the use of the current title - given the widespread use of the "Israel-Gaza" alternative by reliable sources, including the BBC, Guardian, etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:07, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * C. I wouldn't mind Option B despite being a little bit confusing, but Option E wouldn't fit properly since the war will definitely still happen next year. I choose option C because the conflict has been going on for decades, only for it to significantly escalate in 2023. Quake1234 (talk) 12:24, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B if we are abiding by Wikipedia guidelines, namely common name. I am open to adding to it "2023-present" but I think that it would make it just sound awkward.
 * E The war began this year, and it is the only Hamas-Israel war in 2023. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 22:08, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * G or H or J - The least-worst option is "Israel-Palestine war" with some sort of date designation, but I have no strong opinions about how we do the dates. I added K to the list as well, because I only care about how we describe the adversaries, but I think leaving it undated would be too confusing? Irtapil (talk) 02:44, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * L 2023–24 Israel–Hamas war. "Israel-Hamas war" was chosen thanks to being the name used by RS, and it still is the name used by RS. Removing the date is too vague because Israel and Hamas have been engaged in a longer-term conflict for decades which could be described as a "war". The current title will become blatantly incorrect in two days' time, and there is no consensus for a replacement, so the best option is the least change possible to the current title whilst recognizing that the war has extended into 2024. Chessrat  ( talk, contributions ) 05:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * B, but would also support any other form of "Israel-Hamas war". In this move request we consider three different names; Israel-Hamas war, Israel-Gaza war, and Israel-Palestine war. Of these three, in the past day news sources have used:
 * Israel-Hamas war approximately 140 times (and approximately another 40 using Hamas-Israel war)
 * Israel-Palestine war approximately 30 times (and another 3 using Palestine-Israel war)
 * Israel-Gaza war approximately 60 times (and approximately another 10 using Gaza-Israel war)
 * This usage shows that a significant majority of sources use Israel-Hamas war and thus WP:COMMONNAME is met.
 * For us to ignore this evidence there would need to be a strong argument of other issues with the title, but only two arguments have been presented; that the name is not neutral, and that the name is inconsistent.
 * The first argument has generally been asserted without evidence, and in many cases without argument - the closest we have to an argument for it is that the current name ignores the large proportion of the war with no affiliation with Hamas. I don't agree with that; Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip and thus all inhabitants are affiliated with it. In addition, the name is consistent with titles such as War against the Islamic State.
 * The second argument is also weak; looking at Template:Campaignbox Gaza–Israel conflict there is no consistency in article titles and thus consistency is not an argument to move this one.
 * As such, we are obliged to follow the reliable sources, and that means using B or some variant on it; my personal preference is for B, as it is the most concise while still abiding by the rest of WP:CRITERIA. BilledMammal (talk) 05:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * @BilledMammal: I would respectfully request that you strike it recuse yourself from the statement that "Hamas is the government of the Gaza Strip and thus all inhabitants are affiliated with it." - this is the same inaccurate generalization that involved politicians have made in recent statements of genocidal intent, and I sincerely hope that this was just a poorly wrought wording. On the substance, it has been a long while since Israel's war has been prosecuted solely against Hamas, if it ever was, and there remains, yes, a glaring issue in the unnatural and inconsistent mismatch between "Israel" and "Hamas" as comparable nouns, not least in the basic failing per WP:NCWWW by way of "Hamas" not being a geography, but a government actor within a political system akin to "Likud" on the opposing side. You make a comparison with a title involving Islamic State, but that is not a good comparison. This is not a "war against" title, but a hyphenated "like for like", geography "X–Y" title (or should be). At the most basic level, the allusion to ISIS is a POV one, having come straight from the lips of the likes of Netanyahu, but the similitude stops there. There is no less similitude between "Israel" and "Hamas" in the sense that both have been accused of terroristic behaviour. Moving to a broader point about geographical naturalness in the title, it is frankly absurd not to have the actual geography involved in the war, "Gaza", in the title at this point given that this is where almost all of it has taken place. This was never a conflict of precision strikes against Hamas (it would likely not have devolved into a "war" had it been so); it has always been a highly indiscriminate campaign of bombardment and more personal acts of violence – one which has resulted in the total devastation of the Gaza Strip alongside the murder and starvation of a grossly disproportionate count of the inhabitants of Gaza ... Now to the extent that the Genocide Convention has been invoked. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * As a general point; NPOV isn't what we think is neutral, it's what reflects reliable sources on a topic. If reliable sources on a topic describe this as a war between Hamas (and other militant groups) and Israel, declining to describe it as a war between Gaza and Israel, then to comply with NPOV we must describe this as a war between Hamas and Israel, including in our titles; to describe it as a war between Gaza and Israel would be an NPOV violation.
 * Regarding a government actor within a political system akin to "Likud" on the opposing side: That isn't an accurate comparison. With Hamas and the de-facto Gazan State, the lines between Party and State are blurred, but with Likud and Israel are not.
 * This blurring is particularly strong when we consider the composition of the armed forces. In Israel, Israel has an army, Likud does not. In Gaza, Hamas has an army, Gaza does not, and as such Israel isn't fighting Gaza. Instead, Israel is fighting Hamas in Gaza, making the current title accurate and your preferred title inaccurate - which explains why reliable sources prefer the current title.
 * Regarding the comparison with a title involving Islamic State it demonstrates that it can be appropriate to refer to the party that controls the territory. BilledMammal (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * NPOV requires we respect all significant views; it doesn't mean that majoritarian headline language makes for the best page title. Of the available options in currency, this page currently sits at the only one that fails to outline the basic geography of the conflict, per WP:NCWWW. And geography is emphasized for good reason. Many events in Gaza do not involve Hamas. A source about the bombing of the church of St. Porphyrios need make no mention of Hamas, but it would be highly unlikely to exclude "Gaza" as a location. Beyond headlines, and we indeed ignore headlines, per WP:HEADLINE, the stories about this war that mention Gaza will significantly outnumber those that mention Hamas. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:12, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You're asking the wrong question; you're asking where reliable sources say the war is taking place. What you need to ask is who reliable sources say the war is taking place between.
 * In response to that question, most reliable sources say Israel and Hamas, sometimes with the addition of other militant groups - and this isn't, I note, something limited to headlines. Reliable sources consistently call it the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose, and they consistently characterize it as a war between Israel and Hamas in prose. BilledMammal (talk) 12:52, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources obliviously don't refer to it as a war between Israel and Hamas in all of the litany of instances where Israel bombs something and there isn't any evidence to back up its claims that it is attacking something military. 60% of Gaza's houses were never anything but civilian property. Which RS routinely refer to it as the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose? More than anything this appears to be more of a story tag or shorthand headline prefix than a prose term. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:15, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources obliviously don't refer to it as a war between Israel and Hamas in all of the litany of instances where Israel bombs something and there isn't any evidence to back up its claims that it is attacking something military. Can you clarify the point you are trying to make here?
 * Which RS routinely refer to it as the "Israel-Hamas war" in prose? To start, most of these hundreds of scholarly sources; I think there are enough sources there to satisfy your request? BilledMammal (talk) 14:33, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You said consistently; I said routinely - a raw search is nothing but a scattershot and shows neither. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:08, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * In regards to WP:NCWWW, you have overlooked the first sentence in that section, which says If there is an established, common name for an event, use that name. There is an established common name for this event, Israel-Hamas war.
 * You’ve also overlooked the last section of that guideline, WP:NCENPOV, which tells us if there is a particular common name for the event, it should be used even if it implies a controversial point of view. I disagree that there is a POV issue with the current title, but even if there was the guideline you have been referencing tells us to use it. BilledMammal (talk) 16:34, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The WP:NCE guideline has to be read in light of the overarching policy, WP:NC, which takes precedence over the guideline in the event of a contradiction. I've explained above why the WP:COMMONNAME argument is a red herring; here, there are multiple names in common use, and accordingly, we have to err on the side of NPOV. Iskandar323 has thoroughly explained why the current title is POV. As well, you seem to be conflating the policy on WP:RS with WP:NPOV; these are two different policies (albeit with some overlap). WillowCity  <sup style="color: #9932CC;">(talk)  17:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I wasn’t the editor who raised NCE; that was Iskander. I was merely demonstrating why their arguments that it supported their preferred title were incorrect. However, which aspect of NC contradict NCE?
 * I’ll add that your assertion that there are multiple common names is incorrect; Israel-Hamas war sees about twice the use as the other options combined.
 * Can you clarify why you believe I’ve conflated WP:RS with WP:NPOV? BilledMammal (talk) 17:25, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) The guideline itself does not contradict the policy itself, but applying the guideline in the manner you suggest would contradict the policy. Under NCE, POV titles are allowed if there is a particular common name for the event; under WP:NPOVNAME, a POV name is only permitted where the subject of an article is referred to mainly by a single common name, as evidenced through usage in a significant majority of English-language sources. I've explained above why "Israel-Hamas war" does not meet the latter standard; the guideline standard ("a particular common name") is somewhat more ambiguous so it is superseded by the more specific requirements of the NC policy. Without putting words in Iskandar's mouth, I assume they are suggesting we should accordingly apply the other criteria of WP:NCE, namely, WP:NCWWW.
 * (2) the fact that Israel-Hamas war may be more commonly used does not make it the single common name; your own source review demonstrates a significant number of sources using either Israel-Gaza war or Israel-Palestine war.
 * (3) above you write that we "must" describe this as a war between Hamas and Israel because reliable sources do so. This is not sufficient to satisfy NPOV. Some reliable sources describe it this way, others do not. In such circumstances, we should opt for an NPOV title. By way of illustration, Amnesty International, an RSPSS green source, describes Israel as being guilty of apartheid; is this sufficient for us to state in wikivoice that Israel is committing the crime of apartheid? NPOV, in fact, requires that we give effect to competing viewpoints; it does not require that we ignore perspectives that are "outnumbered", so to speak. Hence the purpose of this discussion. WillowCity  <sup style="color: #9932CC;">(talk)  17:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * (1) and (2) I would say that approximately twice as many as the other options combined is a significant majority of English-language sources, wouldn't you?
 * (3) In such circumstances, we should opt for an NPOV title. The NPOV title is the one that reflects the position of the majority of reliable sources (Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources). The majority holds that it is a war between Israel and Hamas, not between Israel and Gaza. Many editors have presented evidence for this, and as far as I can tell no editor has presented evidence against it. BilledMammal (talk) 18:03, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:NPOVNAME allows for a POV name only where there is only a single common name. Here we have multiple competing names, with "Israel-Gaza war" used consistently across sources like the BBC, Guardian, etc., i.e. GREL sources and clear proof that there is no single common name across English language reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:20, 30 December 2023 (UTC)




 * @BilledMammal: I haven't missed any of that. I disagree that there is one name that significantly outweighs all others. There are competing names, but short of an overwhelming divide in prevalence there is no common name and other criteria must be referenced. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

To call it "war against Hamas" is misleading (some would say, propaganda). Wars in the primary sense take place between states, not between governments or leaders. As an example, it would be wrong to call, say, the Iraq War, a "Republican–Ba'ath war"; or the Russia–Ukraine war, a "Russia–Zelensky war". I will argue that the term "Hamas" must be removed from title altogether. It's patently obvious by now that it's not Hamas-owned properties that are being bombed by Israel but the entirety of Gaza Strip, i.e., the entire state is at war. — kashmīrī  <sup style="color:#80f;font-family:'Candara';">TALK  07:14, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * E or A. Israel and Hamas have been in various states of military conflict before, so the distinction of the date is important. See 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine compared to Russo-Ukrainian War for example; one describes a particular phase of the military conflict while the other does not. This article seems to follow the be the former. I'm not in favor of any of the new (bot proposed?) titles suggesting Israel is in a state of war with Gaza or Palestine, if no other reason than the fact the Palestine Authority - which is decidedly not at war with Israel right now - exists as a major political contender with Hamas and still claims authority over Palestine/Gaza. -- Katan gais (talk) 06:10, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine is now Russian invasion of Ukraine. See RM. Options that contradict the policy, such as the arguments of opponents of Russian invasion of Ukraine, should be ignored. Parham wiki (talk) 09:46, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I actually think "Republican–Ba'ath war" would be a vast improvement on most of what it was called at the time. (Australia joined that war, but somehow I barely knew Arab Nationalism was "a thing" until this year, even most of our soldiers seemed to think they were fighting Al-Qaeda.) But, while AUKUS et al. ended up killing half a million Iraqis, I don't think the goal was to depopulate Iraq? or render it so uninhabitable that the population is forced to resort to wandering the Siani for the next 30 to 50 years? In that case destroying the government seemed to actually be the goal? (even if that was the goal here, it would be insane, "last time de-Baath-ifiction led to ISIS, let's see what de-Hamas-ifocstion does?)


 * And one might note that South Africa's ICJ filing is not over genocidal acts against "Hamas", which is not a people, but the inhabitants of Gaza as a whole. The correct frame of reference is now affirmed in legal documents. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:42, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * If your point is that "only at war with Hamas" is a lie, then I definitely agree.
 * But the genocide in Gaza is only one of the things happening in the war. e.g. (sorry I can't think of a less controversial example) The Holocaust was an event that happened during WWII. It would be inaccurate to say that the bombings of Hiroshima, or Tokyo, or London, or Dresden were part of the Holocaust, but all those events were part of WWII (genocides very often happen during war, but there aren't any less controversial examples I know enough about to use as an example).
 * Irtapil (talk) 08:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * C as probably the most accurate among these imperfect options, even if aspects of the war take place on the Lebanese border, in the West Bank, etc. The main part of the war is against the whole territory of Gaza not specifically Hamas, so using that terminology is preferable. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:23, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
 * But C really doesn't work. "Gaza" is just a place and it's a small place that really doesn't describe the geography of the war.
 * This week two citizens of my country got killed by an IDF airstrike in Lebanon. Some journalists have been killed there too, and a lot of other people. And the IDF have been attacking the west bank this whole time. The war is in Israel and everywhere surrounding it, trying to describe that gets a laundry list (Israel, Gaza, West Bank, Red Sea, Lebanon, Syria), but the war is about Palestine vs Israel.
 * The opposing sides either want the region "from the river to the sea" to be all Israel or all Palestine.
 * The Houthis have joined the war flying a Palestinian flag. They and Hezbollah have both joined for Palestine / against Israel rather than any local goals in their own territory.
 * Hamas (and the PFLP and DFLP) are all Palestinian Nationalists, not "Gazan Nationalists". The thing they are fighting for is Palestine.
 * I don't know of PIJ are nationalists? but their militant wing Saraya Al Quds translates as "Jerusalem brigades" (a city not in Gaza). The insignia of every group involved shows a map of all of Palestine (which, by their definition, includes Israel, but interestingly excludes the Gollan Heights).
 * Irtapil (talk) 08:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * You can select a new option. Also read my comments above. Parham wiki (talk) 16:27, 30 December 2023 (UTC)


 * B per WP:COMMONNAME as BilledMammal demonstrated above. No need to deviate from what the media is writing, Wikipedia policy is policy for a reason. I don't see the need for a year considering the previous Gaza conflicts went under different names. Swordman97  talk to me 03:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but the common names are all one sided, an unusual compromise is better than a biased common name. Irtapil (talk) 08:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Adding to what I said, WP:NOYEAR supports the above point. Swordman97  talk to me 03:11, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
 * but to name it unambiguous with no year, we need to get very descriptive e.g. N "Israel war with Palestine, Hezbollah, and Ansar Allah" and that's getting long? Irtapil (talk) 08:55, 31 December 2023 (UTC)