User:Jtm7dd/sandbox

Article Improvement Partner: User:jnhkb4/sandbox

Artes magicae (edit)
Jtm7dd (talk) 20:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC) The seven artes magicae or artes prohibitae, arts prohibited by canon law, as expounded by Johannes Hartlieb in 1456, their sevenfold partition reflecting that of the artes liberales and artes mechanicae, were:
 * 1) nigromancy ("black magic", demonology, by popular etymology, from necromancy)
 * 2) geomancy
 * 3) hydromancy
 * 4) aeromancy
 * 5) pyromancy
 * 6) chiromancy
 * 7) scapulimancy

The division between the four "elemental" disciplines (viz., geomancy, hydromancy, aeromancy, pyromancy) is somewhat contrived. Chiromancy is the divination from a subject's palms as practiced by the Romani (at the time recently arrived in Europe), and scapulimancy is the divination from animal bones, in particular shoulder blades, as practiced in peasant superstition. Nigromancy contrasts with this as scholarly "high magic" derived from High Medieval grimoires such as the Picatrix or the Liber Rasielis.

Most forms of "magic" during this time was really just using various methods of "reading" objects to obtain some form of divination. This is completely unlike the ideas of magic we have now of people doing stuff like raising the dead and controlling fire. Jtm7dd (talk) 16:45, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Nigromancy
Nigromancy is a black art usually performed in the night dealing with dark phenomena such as raising the dead. Using Nigromancy for divination is through a genocide using blood and corpses. Due to these acts, it is forbidden and goes against the Christian faith. The art and practitioners are not received well in philosophy as it destroy religion and taints a person's morals. Since demons enjoy blood, practitioners would experiment with human blood and flesh to obtain a demon's service. Hydromancy can be used along side nigromancy using the purity of children five to seven years old, repeating after their master's incantation over human blood or bones. The product deceives others through illusions such as transforming a person into animals. Jnhkb4 (talk) 02:57, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Practitioners of demonic magic in the late Middle Ages usually belonged to the educated elites due to the contents being written in Latin onto books.Demonic magic was usually performed in groups surrounding a spiritual leader in possession of necromantic books. One such case in 1444, Inquisitor Gaspare Sighicelli took action against a group active in Bologna. Marco Mattei of Gesso and friar Jacopo of Viterbo confessed to taking part in magical practices.

Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Geomancy
The art of geomancy was one of the more popular forms of magic that people practiced during the renaissance period. Geomancy was a form of divination where a person would cast sand, stone, or dirt on the ground and read the shapes. The shapes would then tell them things based off of geomancy charts.

Maybe decent sources for geomancy.Jtm7dd (talk) 17:45, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

http://sk.sagepub.com.libproxy.mst.edu/reference/download/geography/n483.pdf

http://um9mh3ku7s.search.serialssolutions.com/?ctx_ver=Z39.88-2004&ctx_enc=info%3Aofi%2Fenc%3AUTF-8&rfr_id=info%3Asid%2Fsummon.serialssolutions.com&rft_val_fmt=info%3Aofi%2Ffmt%3Akev%3Amtx%3Abook&rft.genre=book&rft.title=Divinations&rft.au=Burns%2C+Dylan+M&rft.date=2014-01-06&rft.pub=University+of+Pennsylvania+Press&rft.isbn=9780812245790&rft.externalDocID=10826575&paramdict=en-US

Hydromancy
Hydromancy, a form of divination using water is typically used with scrying. Water is used as a medium for scrying to allow the practitioner see illusionary pictures within it. Hydromancy originated from Babylonia and was popular during Byzantine times whereas in medieval Europe, it was associated with witchcraft. Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:45, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Aeromancy
Aeromancy divination consisted in tossing sand, dirt, or seeds into the air and studying and interpreting the patterns of the dust cloud or the settling of the seeds. It also includes divination coming from thunder, comets, falling stars, and the shape of clouds. Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Pyromancy
The art of pyromancy consisted of signs and patterns of the flame is used for divination. There are many variations of pyromancy depending on the material thrown into a fire. This method is thought to be used for sacrifices to the gods and that the deity is present within the flames with priests interpreting the omens conveyed. Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:22, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Chiromancy
Chiromancy is a form of divination based on reading palms. Jtm7dd (talk) 16:39, 6 April 2018 (UTC) Chiromancy is based on intuitions and symbolism with some symbols tying into astrology. A line from a person's hand that resembles a square is considered a bad omen whereas a triangle would be a good omen. The basis of this comes from the the trine and square aspect in the astrological aspects. Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Scapulimancy
Scapulimancy was a form of divination using an animal's scapula. The scapula wouyld be broken and based off of how it was broken, it could be used to read the future. It was generally broken by heating it with hot coals until it broke. Jtm7dd (talk) 16:42, 6 April 2018 (UTC) Jtm7dd (talk) 17:11, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Peer Review by Bahm9d (talk) 17:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
The ambition to add information to all seven magical arts is impressive and I look forward to reading what you contribute.

Based on the addition to the Geomancy section, the presentation of the information is very matter-of-fact and neutral, containing no apparent bias.

Does the information written about the “practitioners of demonic magic” go under any of the magical arts or is it introductory information? Either way, it would make sense to move it into the draft edit and out of “group work.” As far as recommendations, that’s the only edit I see pertaining to the existing material. Moving forward, I would recommend providing surface level information on the other six magical arts before going in depth in any one art. This will provide other readers a more basic understanding of the whole article.

I like the use of notes to point out potential resources to find specific information, such as that used to make not of information regarding Geomancy. I plan to implement this in my article.

Bahm9d (talk) 17:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Responses to peer review
The information written about the demonic magic would go under Nigromancy but was yet to be moved into the draft. (I forgot) Sorry about that. We did plan on providing small amounts of details of the other magical arts before focusing on one topic.

Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

We already planned on covering each topic briefly before actually delving into one. It just takes awhile to find reliable sources that let us get the baseline for each type of magic, because it is a strange topic. We will certainly add a 2-3 sentence bit on each type at least. Although I don't think we'll be able to go in depth into all of them individually.

Jtm7dd (talk) 16:16, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Peer Review By Nooneisnotthere (talk) 19:51, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
I like this topic and where you are taking the ideas. I am especially interested in geomancy. One thing I am concered about is how broad that you may be wanting to take this idea. I think that instead of trying to hit all seven of the topics and cover them in detail, it may be beneficial to really focus on one or two of them and really hone in on the details in those sections. It seems like not much is written on these topics on wikipedia so this will be really nice to nail a couple of parts of it. However if you do end up taking on the task of all of them I wish you luck and look forward to reading it. Just make sure your sources are credible, I assume that some of the sources you could read about this topic could be very iffy on the topic.

I would also like to point out that trying to see both partners work individually is difficult to see in the sandbox so if there is a way to differentiate the work it would be easier to us.

Nooneisnotthere (talk) 19:51, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Responses to peer review
You're right about the fact that the topic being broad. We are discussing which topic to focus our research on and the how it was viewed in the past with some work on the others. This will probably be more focused towards Nigromancy (black magic or demonology).

Jnhkb4 (talk) 16:08, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Sorry that our draft isn't extremely easy to tell who did what, but we're kind of both working throughout it. We certainly do plan on just giving a brief explanation for each of the magics so that they aren't left out in our article, but we only plan a few sentences for each of the different magics. We will be focusing on one or two magics to actually go deep into in the end. You are also right that the sources can be hard to follow as for credibility, but the idea of magic isn't very backed up either.

Jtm7dd (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Group Working Over Renaissance magic
We plan to add little sections actually getting into each of the different types of magic and maybe cover some more of the information on occultism. The history behind the use of magic and the way people react around it could be expanded. There is a lot that this article needs, we hope to add a fair bit.Jtm7dd (talk) 17:45, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

The journal, The Demons and the Friars: Illicit Magic and Mendicant Rivalry in Renaissance Bologna, describes events pertaining to demonic magic in Bologna, Italy.jnhkb4 (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

http://muse.jhu.edu.libproxy.mst.edu/article/537218

Dawes, Gregory. "The Rationality of Renaissance Magic". Paregon. 30.

Explains why people accepted magic in the Renaissance period.

https://riviste.unimi.it/index.php/enthymema/article/view/4566/4699

Tries to explain some of the "magic people used.Jtm7dd (talk) 13:19, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

More Articles and Books to look at : THE FRAGMENTATION OF RENAISSANCE OCCULTISM AND THE DECLINE OF MAGIC. The occult mind : magic in theory and practice. Jnhkb4 (talk) 17:49, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Teacher's recommended source : https://archive.org/details/historyofmagicex02thor Thorndike stuff

Article Evaluation
Renaissance magic

Is everything in the article relevant to the article topic? Is there anything that distracted you?
 * The lack of specific information bothers me. It feels like they gave a lot of sources and necessary information that they need to make it a good article, but never delved into the sources and took that information.

Is the article neutral? Are there any claims, or frames, that appear heavily biased toward a particular position? Are there viewpoints that are over represented, or underrepresented?
 * It did not seem to have a particular bias.
 * The viewpoints could use more information. Making them underrepresented as of now.

Check a few citations. Do the links work? Does the source support the claims in the article? Is each fact referenced with an appropriate, reliable reference? Where does the information come from? Are these neutral sources? If biased, is that bias noted? Is any information out of date? Is anything missing that could be added? Check out the Talk page of the article. What kinds of conversations, if any, are going on behind the scenes about how to represent this topic? How is the article rated? Is it a part of any Wiki Projects? How does the way Wikipedia discusses this topic differ from the way we've talked about it in class?Jtm7dd (talk) 17:43, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The one proper citation I found on the page did work.
 * A fair number of things are lacking citations and seem to not reference anything directly. They have a list of authors near the bottom, but they are not individually referenced/cited as they should be. The ref list only shows one reference.
 * Did not sense a bias in the writing, though not having many references makes the information unreliable.
 * This article hasn't been edited since 2007, so it is probably forgotten.
 * I feel like they should expand into the article about the actual different forms of magic such as geomancy during the period that they are talking about, Rather than just linking to a page talking about the entirety of the subject. It would make more sense to delve into the specifics for the Renaissance.
 * They are talking about expanding the scope of the article, and/or creating a new article to cover the Baroque period as well.
 * Start class, it is a part of wiki project Religion

Enter Be_Bold Jtm7dd (talk) 02:07, 16 February 2018 (UTC) []Jtm7dd (talk) 17:46, 9 February 2018 (UTC)