User:King of Hearts/Admin coaching/AfD/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Keeani Lei (2nd nomination)

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Keeani Lei
Fails WP:PORNBIO; no indication the subject can satisfy the GNG or any other specialized guidelines. No nontrivial GNews or GBooks hits. CAVR is not a notable award, let alone a "well-known" one, and the "nomination" amounts to little more than receiving six votes in an online poll. No significant reliable sourcing. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:04, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:GNG and WP:PORNBIO. Epbr123 (talk) 23:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been added to the WikiProject Pornography list of deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:06, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete Had previously been deleted as an expired PROD at Keeani Lei (pornographic actress). Might meet PORNBIO if one includes the FAME nomination HW deleted diff and/or her nomination for the 2010 AVN Awards' Best All-Girl Group Sex Scene, which doesn't appear to have been added to the article.  However, meeting PORNBIO means meeting that in addition to meeting WP:BASIC, and I couldn't find evidence of that after trying web, GB, GS, GN, LEXIS NEXIS with her various names.  A passing mention in "Romantic Signs in Pornography" by Eric Maroney page 22 in Woman in Mind Vol. 4, No. 1 (Spring 2008), published by the Women’s Studies Program at Southern Connecticut State University was about it. Might be some coverage of her in print adult or skateboarding magazines whose content is not on the web, and might have been on G4 (TV channel), but somebody would have to find and cite them exactly. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: The FAME nomination was removed about a year ago under the details for WP:PORNBIO, which refers specifically to FAME when noting that only final-round nominations are covered by that guideline. This was merely a preliminary "nomination," excluded by the guideline itself. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 20:13, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * One might also see that in considering the creation of a properly sourced BLP, the mention on the FAME nomination might be reasonable to include in the article as a peer recognition from her industry, and we editors may simply exclude that sourced bit of information from our thoughts when assesing overall notability.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 01:55, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: Шизомби may be confusing the subject with Kaylani Lei with respect to the 2010 nomination. Morbidthoughts (talk) 09:28, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Look under The Violation of Kylie Ireland  at Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 14:08, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected. She passes PORNBIO then. Morbidthoughts (talk) 15:24, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes and no. She passes the "additional criteria" of PORNBIO but "meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included" (emphasis in original).  On the basis of evidence at hand, she fails to meet the "basic criteria" WP:BASIC though, and thus fails WP:Notability (people). Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 15:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  D u s t i *poke* 02:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Delete as fan cruft of a non-notable "actress." Carrite (talk) 04:23, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - Meets PORNBIO as Шизомби pointed out. Multiple year nominations of AVN Award. Morbidthoughts (talk) 10:38, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep per Morbidthoughts.SPNic (talk) 13:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep per Morbidthoughts. Passes PORNBIO with AVN nominations in multiple years. • Gene93k (talk) 19:28, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. The article subject has not been nominated for awards in multiple years. The subject has appeared in scenes which were nominated for awards in different years. These awards are not classified by AVN as going to the performers, but fall into a different classification. PORNBIO no longer enjoys clear consensus support, due to the indiscriminate mode in which "industry awards" are showered around among interested/interrelated parties, and if it is to be applied at all it should be limited to those awards/nominations which unambiguously go to particular performers -- in the case of AVN Awards, those classified by AVN itself as being for "Performers" or for "Acting"," not to any name that appears on the 75-page laundry list of nominations. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * "These awards are not classified by AVN as going to the performers, but fall into a different classification." I have to agree. The number of pages is somewhat irrelevant, particularly given the large margins and font.  More relevant perhaps is that there's about 154 awards compared to the Oscars' 29 or so (more if including scientific and technical, but still less than 50).  AVN's Best Retail Store (West) had 21 nominees, possibly others have more.  The most the Oscars seem to have is 10, for Best Picture, but most have less than 5. I suppose an award with even more categories and nominees could conceivably still be notable, provided it gets the kind of coverage one would expect a notable award would get.  The AVN award is of some note, but exactly how many RS (other than AVN itself) report all the nominees and/or winners and/or on the awards show itself? Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 00:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Let's try a different argument then... Keep per WP:ANYBIO - "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times." (emph. mine) The AVN awards are notable in and of themselves as they've been referred to as the "Oscars of porn" by CBS news, Reuters and the Globe and Mail, among other news organizations. Since it is clear that she has received multiple nominations, I can't see how she fails ANYBIO... Tabercil (talk) 06:40, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * And yet CBS, Reuters, and the Globe and Mail don't report the noms or winners of the AVN awards, do they? Perhaps not so well-known.  One might as well say barnstars are the Oscars of Wikipedia.  Anyway, as pointed out above: (1) Lei didn't get any nominations.  She was in scenes that were nominated.  By this logic, James Franco, Natalie Portman, etc. are nominees for Best Picture Award.  (2) the additional criteria under which ANYBIO falls states "meeting one or more does not guarantee that a subject should be included."  "Meeting" ANYBIO, PORNBIO, etc. is not the end of discussion.  It's a starting point for it. Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 15:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... a starting point that through numerous discussion over many years by many editors has come to create a consensual agreement as to what constitutes an acceptable notability for that genre, and thus for meriting inclusion in Wikipedia. Yes, mainstream reliable sources do not generally report on porn stars.  Yes, reliable porn sources do not generally report on mainstream actors. Guideline encourages that sources be considered in context to what is being sourced. If/when WP:PORNBIO is changed to eliminate that consensual agreement, this individual and assertions of notability can be revisted and reconsidered.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 22:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * This AfD is still open? Well, as long as it is... I acknowledge that the few MSM RS that have called the AVN Awards the "Oscars of porn" don't have to back their claim up with evidence, nor are they obliged to report on the awards.  After all, it's been a longstanding policy that WP does not require something to be true, though one would think that if the AVN Awards were the Oscars of porn, that multiple RS within the porn industry (other than AVN itself) would be regularly reporting on the AVN nominees, winners, and awards show.  That doesn't seem to be the case.  It's not clear to me the extent to which AVN magazine/AVN.com itself even reports on the AVN Awards.  avnawards.avn.com doesn't appear to go back further than 2010 .  There are official DVDs of some of the older programs, and out-of-print VHS of some of the others.
 * With regard to the nominees and winners of the "Best All-Girl Couples Sex Scene", it's apparent that they are the scenes and not the actresses in the scenes (unless you have a RS to suggest otherwise?). The award is not called the "Best Group of Actresses in an All-Girl Couples Sex Scene," in which case I believe I'd be agreeing with you on that point.  The nominees in each category are in grey text; Keani Lei was not nominated for "Best All-Girl Couples Sex Scene" - because she is an actress; she is not a sex scene any more than JM Productions is (which, like her, is in the smaller red text listed under the nominee "The Violation of Kylie Ireland" in grey).  Similarly, The Jeffersons: a XXX Parody, Video Team, and Metro Media are not nominees for Best Actor, they're just listed under the nominee, Ace.  Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 19:48, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * And I think you're splitting hairs here. Let's look at a similar mainstream example: The MTV Movie Awards and Teen Choice Awards both have awards for "Best Kiss"/"Choice Movie Liplock", which is very much a scene specific award. Those awards are clearly mentioned in the articles for the various actors who were nominated for them (e.g., Sean Penn). Tabercil (talk) 23:20, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Not splitting hairs. "But look at how Wikipedia handles this other award" is not an argument.  But as it happens, those other articles appear to be handling that other award correctly, since it appears MTV chose to give its award to the actors.  AVN chose to give its award to the scene.  Who are we to dispute their choices? Шизомби (Sz) (talk) 01:11, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * It's also important to note that, on the relatively infrequent occasions when a nominated scene has its own identifying title, that AVN typically does not list performer names -- another indication that the performer names are listed to identify the scene, rather than as the award recipients. For example, item 40 on the 2009 AVN awards list, as announced by AVN . Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep per demonstrated meeting of the aplicable notability guideline. Awards notable to that genre, show notability TO that genre, even if to no other genres... and that an award is given to a group for the recognized actions of members of that group, does not denigrate that award.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 22:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - borderline application of already dubious PORNBIO rule. This biography is sourced from her own website and an interview she did with "Xcitement magazine". The other two references have no info; they're just to the fact of the nominations debated above, added to the article in order to meet the rule in question. Other than that, we got nothing. This is not a suitable basis for a biography here. --WTFITS (talk) 05:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep meets pornbio.--BabbaQ (talk) 21:46, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - It has been accepted in past porn AfDs that being the nominee for a group award does not count towards notability. Tarc (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Still a heavy indicator of notability. People can say and think whatever they want about the porn industry itself. But notability is notability is notability;)--BabbaQ (talk) 15:48, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Jesus fucking christ, this isn't The Argument Sketch; simple contradiction is not an actual argument. If you're going to post a follow-up to a comment of mine, then please actually ADDRESS WHAT I SAID.  Again...in several recent porn-related AfDs, editors have opined that a group (i.e. more than one) award nomination does not meet the WP:PORNBIO criteria.  If you wish to go against that finding, that's your deal, but in cases like that it'd be more helpful for you to explain why . Tarc (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Well you contradict almost anyone who says different then yourself without ever addressing the real issues only referring to guidelines that can be twisted and turned to work any users way in an argument over notability. Also remarks such as "Jesus fucking christ" does never work in anyones favour. If anything such comments only prove that the user has problems with believing in what they are posting. Cheers.--BabbaQ (talk) 16:05, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, exasperation expressed at your knee-jerk keep-everything posts must somehow mean that I don't believe what I myself am posting.  Group awards are not a strong indicator of notability, especially in an already weak category like WP:PORNBIO. Tarc (talk) 16:29, 28 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The only one here making things up as it comes is you Tarc. You need to chill and take everything as it comes and not everything as a personal vendetta;).--BabbaQ (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Please don't lie and claim I did things that I did not. I have explained why a group nomination is invalid.  if you can counter that, then by all means to do, but don't waste our time with reflexive, simple contradiction. Tarc (talk) 17:50, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - per BabbaQ. Jivesh    &bull;  Talk2Me  17:34, 30 March 2011 (UTC)