User:Kingbird1/Sandpit

Comments


The use of the awful word "impacted" notwithstanding, I think this is excellent. Mooretwin (talk) 10:52, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Very good. Surely Lord Callaghan would only have intervened after the Stormont Government failed to take control?  Should that not be written into the paragraph? --Gavin Lisburn (talk) 13:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Not sure about the specifics of Callaghan's intervention, but the Army was deployed at the request of the Stormont Government because the RUC had been exhausted by the August riots. Mooretwin (talk) 15:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It would help the reader's understanding if there were a lead-in to explain why the article about UDR is going off on a ramble about USC and RUC. (My comment in the RfC was based in part on my lack of background knowledge; the regular editors know a lot about this subject but should remember that many readers can't make certain connections that seem automatic to those with more background.)  Furthermore, this version focuses on the rioting but omits information in the current version of the article about Catholics' suspicions of and resentment toward those bodies even before 1969.  What about replacing the first paragraph with the following two paragraphs:


 * The UDR was created in 1970, during the period of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. Before its creation, the governmental units charged with keeping order were the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the Ulster Special Constabulary (USC or "B Specials"). These organisations were a subject of dispute. The Northern Ireland civil rights campaign, which began in the mid-1960s, sought to disband the USC, which it saw as functioning more like a Protestant paramilitary organisation than as a peace force.  Unionists, however, generally supported the USC as contributing to the defence of Northern Ireland from subversion and outside aggression.


 * The inability of the RUC and the USC to cope with the large scale intercommunal rioting of 1969 brought concerns over policing in Northern Ireland to a head. The rioting lead to direct intervention by the British Government, led personally by the British Home Secretary, Lord Callaghan, who flew to Belfast to take control of the situation. On the 28th August 1969 security in Northern Ireland including the USC or "B Specials" was put under the direct control of the General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland, General Ian Freeland. Meanwhile the British Army was deployed on the streets of Belfast and so began Operation Banner.


 * From there it would continue with "The USC, which had no training in riot control" etc. JamesMLane t c 00:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Good call James, sounds good to me Kernel Saunters (talk) 11:36, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "Governmental units"?? Jeez. Can we try to write in normal English, please? Also, the proposed text states that both the RUC and USC were the subject of dispute, but only supports this in relation to the civil-rights demand for the disbandment of the USC. So, how about:
 * "Since 1920, the Ulster Special Constabulary (USC or "B Specials") had provided support to the Royal Ulster Constabulary, but was the subject of dispute. The Northern Ireland civil rights campaign, which began in the mid-1960s, sought to disband the USC ...
 * Mooretwin (talk) 11:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)
 * OK we can do reword - I'll try to come up with something Kernel Saunters (talk) 10:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I've just come across this discussion now. The page has not been on my watchlist for a while. The proposed edit below is a huge improvement on the current article. I'd like to make a few points: Scolaire (talk) 09:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Disbandment of the B Specials was a demand not only of the Civil Rights movement but also of the rioters. See for instance in Free Derry: "A deputation that included Eamon McCann met senior army officers and told them that the army would not be allowed in until certain demands were met, including the disarming of the RUC, the disbandment of the B-Specials and the abolition of Stormont (McCann, Eamonn, War and an Irish Town, p. 64)." This is important because the three inquiries of 1969 were set up to investigate disturbances, not only Civil Rights demands.
 * 2) The role of the B Specials in the disturbances, and its perception by the nationalist community, was also highlighted by the Cameron and Scarman inquiries; see the Cameron Report and Scarman Report sections of the USC article. The comments of those reports should also be included. I would personally favour retaining separate "Background" and "Hunt" sections, with the "Background" section including the Cameron and Scarman inquiries and the "Hunt" section dealing with the actual recommendation that a new force should be created.
 * 3) With regard to JamesMLane's point about the perception of the B Specials before the events of 1969, Wikipedia is not especially helpful here - the USC article itself has very little to say about the force between 1922 and 1969. However, the "Background" section of 1969 Northern Ireland riots mentions an ICJ report, and goes on, "The Times also reported that the Ulster Special Constabulary...was 'regarded as the militant arm of the Protestant Orange Order' (Rose, Peter. How The Troubles Came to Northern Ireland. p. 160)."
 * 4) Just from a writing point of view, the sentence, "The rioting lead [sic] to direct intervention by the British Government, led personally by the British Home Secretary, Lord Callaghan..." has two "led"s and two "British"s. Also, Jim Callaghan was not a lord then. It could be simplified to "The rioting led to direct intervention by the British Government: the Home Secretary, James Callaghan, flew to Belfast to take control of the situation."
 * Thanks Scolaire. Overall the objective was to describe the events leading up to the formation of the UDR as the intro is now essentially a description of the perceived shortcoming of the USC which misses many of the events of the time. In terms of the points raised above: 1). I'll add this and I accept that disturbances (as the police lost control) is the key factor albeit interlinked with the political situation. 2). The reports themselves are more problematic. Hunt was the report that led to the formation of the UDR. Ryder states that the Scarman report was not available until after the USC was disbanded and so as far as I'm aware did not form part of the decision making process to disband the UDR (I'll give this a re-read tonight to confirm) so I can't see the benefit of in-depth analysis of that report. The Cameron Report - I'll need to reassess the impact that report is said to have had on the the Hunt Report. WRT the perception perhaps the in-depth perception stuff should be in the actual USC article? Effectively the new version does state the perception of the nationalist community so an added expansion with the point you raised would be the answer. The last point on the writing is also accepted. Kernel Saunters (talk) 13:30, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose my main point about Cameron and Scarman is that they allow us to state certain things as fact rather than perception: that it would have been "almost if not wholly impossible for a Roman Catholic recruit to be accepted"; that there was "definite evidence of dual membership" with the UPV; that there were "areas where their very presence would 'heighten tension'". I appreciate that this article is not about the B Specials, but I feel that if we're going to talk about why they were disbanded (and therefore why the UDR was created) we want to avoid giving the impression that it was purely due to a negative perception by the minority community. What they were, as opposed to how they were perceived, becomes important later on when addressing the question of "can the new Regiment be regarded like the old USC, as a vigilante force and a law unto itself." Scolaire (talk) 19:40, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is Scarman's view of the USC - essentially he says that their use was limited but that their use in Catholic areas was counter-productive given their perception by the residents. Outside the cities however they lacked leadership and there was some indiscipline exacerbated by lack of riot control training and the pressure exerted by the rioters. Cameron adds the dual membership issue . So to distill this further: mistrusted 100% Protestant organization used in Catholic areas = bad and UPV dual membership likewise. The UPV stuff would need to be qualified as Hezlet and Ryder cast doubt on Cameron's findings. Kernel Saunters (talk) 15:48, 7 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm commenting on this in response to the request for input at WT:MILHIST. With the massive proviso that I don't know much about the Troubles, it seems OK to me as it covers what appear to be all the main perspectives without going into excessive detail or using tedious he-said, she-said type prose. The first three paragraphs need a through copy edit though as some parts are wordy and the tense jumps around a bit (for instance "Whilst the Northern Ireland cabinet who remained supportive of the USC, it was demonstrated to them during a London meeting"). Nick-D (talk) 10:51, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Time to copy?
This proposal has been here more or less in complete form for fifteen days or more. While a number of people have offered comments, there has been 100% approval for the proposed text vis-a-vis the current text. I suggest that it be copied to the article without further discussion. If it is reverted, so be it - at least we'll know that there is opposition and it can be dealt with. If it's left - and I'm sure it will be - then any tweaking can be done within the article and any discussion can take place on the talk page. The RfC tag has been removed, so there'll never be a better time for being bold. I'm copying this comment to the article talk page. Scolaire (talk) 12:22, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I was going to do a copyedit tonight and tidy up the referencing. Perhaps after that? Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:30, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that would be ideal. Scolaire (talk) 12:35, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

In scope for this work
New version for the current Background/Hunt Report sections

Background
The UDR was created in 1970, during the period of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. Before its creation, the police organsations charged with keeping order were the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the Ulster Special Constabulary (USC or "B Specials"). The RUC was the main police force whilst the USC was a reserve force tasked with patrolling and protection of vulnerable points additionnally acting as a personnel reserve. The USC was the object of the Catholic nationalist community mistrust especially given it was drawn exclusively from the Protestant community. Whilst not prohibited by regulation, it was very unlikely that a Catholic could join. Unionists, however, generally supported the USC as contributing to the defence of Northern Ireland from subversion and outside aggression. The USC had played an important and effective role in combating the Irish Republican Army (IRA) Border Campaign of 1956 to 1962.

The inability of the RUC and the USC to cope with the large scale intercommunal rioting of 1969 brought concerns over policing in Northern Ireland to a head. On 14 August, on a day of severe disorder and the police now at breaking point, Home Secretary, James Callaghan granted a request from the Northern Ireland government to deploy the British Army. On the 28th August 1969 security in Northern Ireland, including the USC, was put under the direct control of the General Officer Commanding in Northern Ireland, General Ian Freeland.

The USC, which had no training in riot control, had been mobilised to assist the RUC in dealing with the disorder. Widely reported incidents such as the death of a rioter in Tynan on 14 August and widespread allegations of misconduct from Catholic politicians and community leaders ensured that the USC were high on the political agenda for the British Government. Disbanding of the USC was one of the key demands of the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association and the Derry Citizens' Defence Association. Indeed the USC was so mistrusted by the Catholic population that at times this led to increased tension when deployed to Catholic areas. British Prime Minister Harold Wilson publicly declared that the USC being used for crowd control has caused great concern and that they would be progessively replaced by the British Army. He stated "they had up to now been exercing riot control duties... but that is not where they ought to be". Whilst the Northern Ireland cabinet remained supportive of the USC, it was demonstrated to them at a London meeting on 19th August that disbanding the USC was top of the British Government's agenda.

In response the Hunt Report was commissioned by the Government of Northern Ireland to: "examine the recruitment, organisation, structure and composition of the Royal Ulster Constabulary (RUC) and the Ulster Special Constabulary and their respective functions and to recommend as necessary what changes are required to provide for the efficient enforcement of law and order in Northern Ireland." The report, published on 3rd October 1969, recommended that the RUC "should be relieved of all duties of a military nature as soon as possible". Further; a "locally recruited part-time force, under the control of the G.O.C., Northern Ireland, should be raised"... and that the "force, together with the police volunteer reserve, should replace the Ulster Special Constabulary." The report whilst recognising the "value of the the anti-guerilla patrols and armed guard duties they have carried out", noted that whilst not prohibited from joining the USC "that for a variety of reasons, the fact remains that no Roman Catholic is a member" The report recommended that it be replaced with a force that would be "impartial in every sense" and "remove the responsibility of military style operations from the police force".

The publication of the Hunt Report led to rioting on the Shankill Road in Belfast with both the RUC and army forced to battle loyalists. These disturbances led to the death of 3 people including RUC Constable Victor Arbuckle, the first RUC death in The Troubles. The USC itself suffered discontent and some resignations in the wake of the report.

The British Government accepted the findings of the Hunt Report and published a Bill and white paper on 12th November 1969 to begin the process of establishing the UDR. The resulting parliamentary debate in Westminster highlighted concerns about a continuing role for the USC. Jeremy Thorpe MP pointed to the fact that ..."a substantial majority was to be recruited from former B Specials" and questioned if this was "likely to increase the chances of general acceptance in Ulster?" Roy Hattersley pointed out that this was due to "necessity" and that despite reservations towards some, the majority of the Specials were "men who have given good and honourable service to Northern Ireland." Bernadette Devlin, MP for Mid Ulster, meanwhile stated that "What we are being offered, in my opinion, is the B Specials under another name".

The Belfast Telegraph disagreed with the critics. In editorials several days apart it declared: "In no sense can the new Regiment be regarded like the old USC, as a vigilante force and a law unto itself. Inevitably the members of the new force will be provided by present B Specials and just as inevitably it is already being smeared in some quarters as simply the old force in new uniform. Every effort must be made to ensure that this is not so. No-one must be able to put a denominational tag on the UDR and if one of the senior officers in the force happened to be a Roman Catholic, so much the better.... The establishment of this new force should be regarded as a turning point in the life of the community."

The Ulster Defence Regiment Act 1969 received Royal Assent on 18 December 1969 and was brought into force on 1 January 1970.

Later
Personnel - where from?: 18-20% catholic, USC and others. Have 1972 figures now!

Initial reception Drop in catholic numbers (18% to 3%) 1). Disillusionment 2). IRA Killings / Intimidation (Ryder) Loss of RC 40 soldiers after Sean Russell killed