User:Leutha/Archive 12 (December 2018)

The public domain lists
And what information is that? I still don't see anything that makes these lists anything other than original research. Taking a set of rules and applying them yourself to reach a conclusion falls under that classification. WP:Synthesis. Sources like this one for a Robert Frost poem are required. Largoplazo (talk) 15:42, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * If you follow the blue links you will discover they lead to a fresh Wikipedia page.Leutha (talk) 16:12, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I just clicked an arbitrary selection of the links in a few of the lists and found most of them don't establish that the works in question are in the public domain. And most of the works listed aren't linked anyway. Largoplazo (talk) 19:14, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * For a lot of works, it's just simple math. For example, the works of Antonin Artaud.  Anything he solely created within his lifetime in now public domain in France since he died in 1948 since France is life of the author plus 70 years.  Original texts are also public domain in any country with a copyright term of 70 p.m.a.  Another example: Gertrude Atherton.  Her pre-1924 works are public domain in the United States, and now the original texts of hers are public domain in Life + 70 countries.  I'd rather not go through many pages and state that "such-and-such's works entered the public domain in Life + 70 countries on January 1, 2019" to satisfy that this is not merely original research but a list compiled from various other Wikipedia pages   Abzeronow (talk) 22:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * We have List of countries' copyright lengths with references.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:17, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well:
 * I suspect you know that Wikipedia isn't considered a reliable source.
 * That list of copyright durations could have errors, so an item could be included in a list when it really isn't in the public domain or was already in the public domain.
 * There could be complexities not covered by that list, so an item could be included in a list when it really isn't in the public domain or was already in the public domain.
 * Finally, applying information from elsewhere and combining it here to reach conclusions is original research, specifically synthesis, as I already noted above. And that isn't permitted.
 * Wikipedia isn't a forum for initial reporting. For example, if you realize that published proofs of two conjectures, taken together, demonstrate the truth of a third conjecture, Wikipedia isn't the place to record that observation. Wikipedia won't display the combined proof or an assertion that the third conjecture has been proved until that has been covered in a reliable source. Likewise, this isn't a venue for declaring works to have entered the public domain without there already being a reliable source that has said so.
 * Finally, a statement that a work is in the public domain and is free to be used by all at will is a legal opinion. Wikipedia cannot assume responsibility for issuing legal opinions. Largoplazo (talk) 23:32, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * See Happy Birthday to You for an example of how entry into the public domain isn't always a cut-and-dried affair. I don't see how we can be in the position of making such a declaration, uncited, for hundreds of works. Largoplazo (talk) 23:47, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
 * mmm, yes, i have read about the misuse of Synthesis, never realised it would end up spread all over my talk page!Leutha (talk) 01:28, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Are you saying I'm misusing WP:SYNTHESIS? Can you explain what part of my analysis is mistaken as opposed to being spot-on what that guideline is about? Largoplazo (talk) 11:34, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, if you look at What SYNTH is not you will see 25 possible examples of "What SYNTH is not". I am not saying they all apply, but I think several do. It would also be worthwhile to check These are not original research, particularly Compiling facts and information for further corroboration. Leutha (talk) 14:54, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm looking at WP:NOTSYNTH and finding that it squares away with my conception of synthesis.
 * The discussion and then the example in the first titled section, WP:NOTSYNTH, seem squarely to mirror the situation with the public domain lists, conveying the danger of assuming a conclusion can be reached as unambiguously as might appear possible. My view seems to be consistent with the observations made in the rest of the essay, other than the ones that are various imitations of WP:IAR, but I'm ignoring those because I'm assuming this debate won't be decided based on a decision that we simply don't feel like following the guidelines.
 * The section that comes closest to aligning with your view is WP:NOTSYNTH, but, whereas it would be astounding to find out that no reliable sources inform us that Paris is the capital of France, I don't find it unimaginable that there are works on the public domain lists that haven't been the target of people waiting around for them to enter the public domain and then announce in reliable sources that that has happened.
 * The situation is the same with WP:NOTOR.
 * I agree with the premise behind WP:NOTORand I wouldn't have brought all of this up to begin with if it were a matter of simple calculations. However, see my arguments above that these aren't simple calculations, or that it is erroneous to assume that the simple calculation implied by the list of copyright durations is the sum and substance of the matter. That's particularly where the part about these declarations being legal opinions comes in. I gave an example as to how lawyers can get involved in these things. These considerations take this out of the realm of "simple calculations.
 * The same section says 'If the source says that "25% of the objects are foo and 75% are bar", then it is acceptable for you to write "One quarter of objects are foo". "Most objects are bar", however, is much more vague, and not an accurate description of the quantitative relationship.' It even frowns on leaping from 75% to "most"! And that seems, to me at least, a great deal more straightforward than determining when a work has entered the public domainand the latter conclusion involves taking on a great deal more responsibility than simply paraphrasing 75% as "most".


 * As for WP:NOTOR, the section to which you drew my attention, the second and third bullet points don't apply here, but as for the first: "Organizing published facts and opinions that are based on sources that are directly related to the article topic—without introducing your opinion or fabricating new facts, or presenting an unpublished conclusion—is not original research." But these articles are introducing a possibly unpublished conclusion as to the public domain status of each of the works. That was my very first point.
 * Largoplazo (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks Leutha for messaging me at Commons:User_talk:Bluerasberry. We are all talking about articles of the sort in Template:Years in Public Domain. One controversy here is whether or how English Wikipedia should present content which seems like original research from lists. That is an ongoing debate. In the longer term I expect that English Wikipedia will get supplements from Wikidata, but I would not expect that to be common within 5 years.
 * Something that might be relevant sooner is meta:Structured Data on Commons, a Wikimedia Deutschland and Wikimedia Foundation project to apply structured data to every file on Commons to better interlink it first with Wikidata and next with every other Wikimedia project, including Wikipedias. If this worked, then one of its strengths would be reporting the provenance and term of copyright. Linking to a Commons query on one of this "copyright in (year)" pages would generate both lists of files and also data visualizations noting trends in the content. Supposedly Structured Data on Commons was to be announced last month but there must be a delay. There has already been an import of data from Wikisource into Wikidata and I expect that the metadata from Commons will follow that precedent. Yes, of course Leutha, as you suggested Wikisource had a good idea for sorting metadata in a way that Commons was not practicing, and yes it is good to apply the Wikisource model to Commons. There is hardly documentation of where the ideas originate or go but so far as I know, Wikisource is the origin and testing ground of the idea.
 * I like these pages and I am trying to organize Commons:Commons:Public Domain Day events around the new media that will become available every year from now on. I know it is problematic to keep "public domain in xxxx" pages on English or any Wikipedia because they are incomplete, procedurally generated, and more subject to biased sources than usual because what journalists report as significant is opinion and typically they can only access poor data. Still, this is what we have now, and publishing anything helps our audience think through the impact of the public domain.
 * I hope all this helps. There are several big issues tied in this and it is hard to untangle them. Bluerasberry (talk) 15:41, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. I certainly support Commons:Commons:Public Domain Day, and although recent personal responsibilities have limited my input to any practical organising this year, I shall mention it at the London meetup tomorrow. I agree that having structured data on Wikidata is the way forward. The contribution I have been making as regards 2019 in public domain is working on s:Author:Claude McKay. A fellow editor set up s:Harlem_Shadows, generating a wiki data item for it. If the copyright info was handled by Wikidata, then the template at the bottom of that page could be automatically generated. But I think this will take some time.Leutha (talk) 10:34, 12 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Leutha I just saw your note to Bluerasberry on Commons, "... for reasons I am not sure of, a discussion has wound up on my talkpage ...." ??? You reverted my addition of "original research" tags to all those public domain list articles. What is unclear about why I then contacted you about your actions on your talk page? Largoplazo (talk) 17:28, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for you interest but I am not sure why you are asking the question. "What is unclear about why I then contacted you about your actions on your talk page?" What I stated was "for reasons I am not sure of, a discussion has wound up on my Wikipedia talkpage concerning the 20xx in public domain." – a very different kettle of fish. Please check the page which resulted from your edit. You will notice that the way the template appears on that is quite different from the way it appears on Template:Original research. The latter includes the sentence "Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page." with talk page being a live link to the talk page. I am unclear why the template does not include this sentence which appears on the template page. I would appreciate any explanation you may have for this, but would suggest that it you make it here.Leutha (talk) 22:18, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Ways to improve Arseny Morozov House
Hello, Leutha,

Thanks for creating Arseny Morozov House! I edit here too, under the username Boleyn and it's nice to meet you :-)

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Edward Furniss
Hi Leutha! I am interested in the information you have that Edward Furniss was a passenger aboard Emma in South Australia's "First Fleet". This is interesting, as Barry Leadbeater, who maintains a searchable list for FamiliesSA of early arrivals by ship, has only "before 1847". Is it your intention to create an article on Furniss? Doug butler (talk) 23:02, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * My source is the State Library of South Australia: The Old Colonists Banquet Group: Edward Furniss, so we have a photo of him. Actually you have raised a good point as I made a mistake he arrived on a later trip of the Emma in June 1845. This is confirmed here, albeit with a slightly different spelling. Catherine Helen Spence identifies him as a member of the South Australian Literary Society, which makes him pretty interesting. That is why I feel he is notable.Leutha (talk) 23:28, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks; have passed your info to Barry L.; Doug butler (talk) 02:20, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Manchester meetup 36 - 9 June 2019
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Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Local Planning Authority


A tag has been placed on Template:Local Planning Authority requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section T3 of the criteria for speedy deletion because it is an unused duplicate of another template, or a hard-coded instance of another template. After seven days, if it is still unused and the speedy deletion tag has not been removed, the template will be deleted.

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Anarchism
Hi Leutha,

I saw your work on articles related to anarchism and wanted to say hello, as I work in the topic area too. If you haven't already, you might want to our noticeboard for Wikipedia's coverage of anarchism, which is a great place to ask questions, collaborate, discuss style/structure precedent, and stay informed about content related to anarchism. Take a look for yourself!

And if you're looking for other juicy places to edit, consider expanding a stub, adopting a cleanup category, or participating in one of our current formal discussions.

Feel free to say hi on my talk page and let me know if these links were helpful (or at least interesting). Hope to see you around. czar 11:06, 23 March 2019 (UTC)
 * thanks. Leutha (talk) 13:16, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

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Ludwig Baehr moved to draftspace
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Forgot Goebbles and Hitler
The "Cult of Personality" article seems to completely ignore the originality of Joseph Goebbels and his "ilk" proselytizing the status of Adolf Hitler........ some twenty years befoe that of Josef Stalin, (as mentioned in the article)' Perhaps I missed something, or the article isn't finished. ````4/01/19 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4markbg (talk • contribs) 15:26, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Frederick Wendel moved to draftspace
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Council of People's Commissars of Belarus moved to draftspace
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Ways to improve Third All-Russian Congress of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants Deputies' Soviets
Hello, Leutha,

Thanks for creating Third All-Russian Congress of Workers', Soldiers' and Peasants Deputies' Soviets! I edit here too, under the username Boleyn and it's nice to meet you :-)

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Jamaica
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Hans Hauck
Hi, can you check recent deletion from the above article? the edit was made by someone who seems to have an obsession with Hans Hauck and has made deletions to List of Nazis of non-Germanic descent‎ in connection with this person. Many thanks Denisarona (talk) 11:11, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

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Nomination of Ruhr Industrial Heritage Trail – Duisburg: Town and Harbour for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ruhr Industrial Heritage Trail – Duisburg: Town and Harbour is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Google Code-In 2019 is coming - please mentor some documentation tasks!
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Proposed deletion of Henry Lyell


The article Henry Lyell has been proposed for deletion&#32;because of the following concern: "No evidence of any notability. Existed, but why should we be interested?"

While all constructive contributions to Wikipedia are appreciated, pages may be deleted for any of several reasons.

You may prevent the proposed deletion by removing the notice, but please explain why in your edit summary or on the article's talk page.

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 * Please remember not to hit "Publish" in mainspace until you have added enough content to show why the topic is notable. Alternatively, create the article in your sandbox and move to mainspace when ready. Or add under construction while you work on it. At the point where I PRODded it after stub-sorting, it read like a family history listing, with no assertion of notability. I almost put it up for CSD A7 as having no assertion of significance. I agree with the dePROD, seeing the added content, but next time please save us the bother. Thanks. Pam  D  17:15, 26 December 2019 (UTC)