User:MIckStephenson/XitXat

xat away, I'm listening, honest...

just one thing: dont forget to sign your name date and time with 4 of these ~

Nursery ;o)
Hi, I don't know if I'm doing this right! I've been looking at the Wiki Wine project lately and am keen to participate but not sure how to go about it. You have time to set me on the right path? Fabio


 * Hi Fabio, I'm usually about every day at some point but I'm really busy at the moment with Other Things, so if I take a while to get back to you, that's why. I've offered you an adoption on your user page. If there's anything you need help with, drop me a line on this (xitxat) page and I'll reply to it here too. Keeps things neat and tidy :o) One exception to this - I'll keep an eye on your posts and edits for a while if you like, and if you look like you're struggling (or whatever) I'll leave a message on your talk page. First thing: sign your posts! After you finish typing, add four tildas like this ~ and the black magic which is Wiki markup will automatically mark your post with your username, time and date. Bye for now! mikaultalk 16:06, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Great! Thanks for adopting me! Yes, i think it's a good idea that you keep an eye on my posts and edits until I get the hang of it. --BodegasAmbite 10:09, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I will do. I think a great way for you to start would be to dive in at the deep end... there is no article on organic wine at present and I think you should write one! When you want to start, do two things:
 * 1. In the search box on the left of your screen, type "organic wine" and press "Go". The search result says there is no such article, and tells you: "No page with that title exists. You can create this page or request it." Click on the "create this page" part of that text and on the page that pops up, write a short introductory passage. Don't worry about formatting or anything just yet (that's dealt with in task number 2!) just write as you normally would a short paragrah or two. Click "preview" at the bottom of the page to see what it looks like, then "Save" when you're happy with it. Congratulations -  you've created your first article!
 * 2. Have a read of the Manual of Style page. It seems a bit arcane at first, but that's what I'm here for ;o) I still don't undertand all the formatting techniques but I can certainly help if you have probs with most of them. Another way of learning how these things work is to find a similar article (look at organic food, perhaps) and click the "edit" button at the top, to see the code which made the page. Maybe wait before actually editing it just yet; if you want to see how changes affect the page, click "preview", not "save"!
 * If you're not very html-savvy, this might be more daunting for you than I'm supposing here, but it's easy, really. Let me know what you think. Oh, and welcome to my addiction!
 * mikaultalk 10:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding inline references & fixing red links
Refs are important and were the first thing I looked for in your edit: in general, don't add info you can't quote a published reference for. Best way is to use the link in the "wiki markup" list beneath the edit box. Either type (or copy/paste) your citation into the edit box, highlight it, then click the link text; or click the link text first and type/copy/paste in afterwards.

This code leaves a neat [1] number after your edit, which links to a footnote at the bottom of the page (natch) - but only if there's a "References" section there with a tag in it. This tag (also conveniently available in the wiki markup list) lets you add not only a reference but a note to go with it; for example, I just added a ref to Sherry (ref number 2) this way - have a look at the code and the resulting footnote in "References". If there's no you'll see no reference, so you'll need to add the new "References" section as well as the inline ref.

You can find other inline ref methods by clicking the Editing help link, next to the "Show changes" button below the edit box. They're not as neat but do the same job if there's no. Don't use the last one (without square brackets) unless it's within an "External links" section.

If you get red link text in your edits, you've not linked to a "live" article. Red links are generally a Bad Thing. Two main ways around this, plus a more radical third way:
 * - First, keep your linked text, but use a pipe (the vertical bar (|) which - on my keboard - is shift-backslash) to link to a live article. This is how come this blue text links to your edit. It's one of the best things about Wiki markup.
 * - The second way is to find the article you were trying to link to and change your linked text to that article name. I've re-edited your edit at Tempranillo so that Castilla y León now links to Castile and Leon (I hate the Anglicised naming convention too, but this is an English wiki and these are the rules!) You could, in some circumstances, keep your original text and pipe link to the live article, like this: Castilla y León (click the edit button above to see the code) You need to do the same thing for Castilla La Mancha ("Castile La Mancha").
 * - The third way is good if your link text is an alternative spelling for the article you intended linking to. In the example I've picked here, it might sometimes be a good idea to link the Spanish spelling to a Redirect page (although this isn't really conventional for foreign placenames). You do this by clicking the red link, which takes you to the "No page with that title exists" page I mentioned earlier today. Follow the "create the page" link and beneath the edit box which appears, click the #REDIRECT  link, then type the correct name of the article you were trying to link to. Click "Save page" and you've made your original red link blue by redirecting to an extant page.

I'd suggest you do one of the first two of these things for the remaining red links in your edit and play with the redirect at a more appropriate time.

Happy editing; let me know how you get on! - mikaultalk 23:53, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

re First Edit
Thanks for all that above. That's a lot of stuff there for me to get to grips with! I see myself doing 2 things in the near future: 1) getting to grips with the nitty-gritty formatting (like those red links) and 2) writing that organic wine article. I already have a LOT of material already written because a few months ago I started writing up stuff for my own web page for the vineyard and bodega. I suppose it´ll be a question of cutting and pasting really, modyfying the content a bit and then tidying up the format. PS I hope I didn't offend Charleen with my vandalism comment. I didn't realise it was her that had edited the page (just recently discovered the History tab!) and I can see that she's a major contributor to the Wine project. I suppose least said the better and hope she understands (me being a newbie and all that) --BodegasAmbite 17:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure she does :o) This is nothing to worry about either (my fault really, for not being omre specific) but you should probably have held off on organic wine until you had some concrete info to input; the result is other editors think it's an error page and mark it for deletion, which is exactly what happened. Now that you have some headings in it's a bit more "stable" and I've added a tag - - instead, to show visitors that it's a work in progress. If you have a minute, write a quick introduction - doesn't have to be anything special, you can edit it later - by way of a very short summary of the subject. Try to keep an encyclopedic "style" and a neutral point of view (NPOV) but don't worry about citations and references just yet. We also need to talk about original research...
 * Incidentally, the work you're doing on that list at Tempranillo is looking really good! I'm about tonight if you have any questions. Bye for now!
 * mikaultalk 18:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I really have jumped in at the deep end! and am floundering a bit! maybe I should have held bach for a bit. I just looked through all that material I was thinking of cutting and pasting, and, well, there's not so much as I thought that is appropriate. Most of it is in fact relevant only to the future web page, and not really encyclopaedic at all. However there is some salvagable material. I'll try to post something soon and I'll try to do the references as well.--BodegasAmbite 09:44, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Now I'm feeling like I pushed you in ;o) All I would say is, carry on as you have been, adding a bit here and there, as you find the material and when you have the time. I found it useful to write something locally, ie in Word or something, without worrying about formatting and all that. It needs to be different from your webpage, for sure, basically because it should have WP:NPOV and because you're not allowed to advertise here! You should also avoid WP:NOR, which is the real toughie, as you presumably know a lot more from first-hand experience than you've learned second-hand (from books/websites/courses you've been on or whatever) NPOV is non-negotiable; it's an encyclopedia, not a buyer's guide nor even a "how to" article. However, you could still use your own thoughts and discoveries if:
 * A. You can find someone else, in print or online, who thinks the same or has made the same discoveries;
 * B. You can explain a widely accepted idea in a concise way, ie distilling verifiable information which can be found published elsewhere.
 * C. You can verify that this information has been published elsewhere.
 * Personally, I've found WP:NOR really hard to get used to and have had to bite my tongue on many occasions.. regarding organic wine article: in general, definitley don't leave it to stagnate but neither should you worry about getting all of the info there all in one go. There's no rush. If you're genuinely stuck for how to start, I could write a bunch of starter points which you can wade through and edit/re-jig/delete as you see fit. Would that be easier, or are you feeling more up to it now? mikaultalk 13:12, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

No no, you didn't push me! I jumped! I tend to be a bit impulsive in life, and I've done it again!!!! I'll just plod along and do it slowly but surely!

re Good Stuff
Thanks for your latest comments. OK, I won't translate/copy the vintages. I won't copy the wineries either, until the jury gets back. I'm beginning to get the hang of things, slowly! I think I'd rather fiddle around doing little things (ie, getting to grips with formatting, editting, etc) for the time being, as opposed to writing a main article from scratch. What should I do about the Organic Wine article I started (a bit too hastily!)? Now that I understand a bit more, I don't feel I'm ready to do a good job yet. And the material I had thought to use is not really suitable except for selected bits. Is it OK just to abandon it and let it get deleted? and make another attempt in the future?
 * It's a shame that I'm so busy at the moment, I would happily write up a basic article for you to elaborate. In its present state I don't think it'll get deleted. Just take your time and add bits here and there as * when you find them. The summer's coming, I'll have more time then  bye for now ~ mikaultalk 23:04, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

User Name
I was thinking of changing my user name, as I see that everyone has a sort of personal one, whereas I just chose the first thing that came to mind, and it sounds a bit to corporate! Is this important or does it not matter? Should I bother, is it worth the effort and possible complications?
 * I changed mine very soon after first logging in. It's not super-easy but I do think you have a case for changing it. Corporate names aren't exactly very Wikipedia, as you've presumably found out! Have a look at this page - it's straighforward enough and I don't think you'll have any real problems, other than having quite a few edits under your belt (no biggie) and some new wikifriends who you might need to re-introduce yourself to. Just go for it and see what happens; if you need more help you know where I am :o) mikaultalk 23:48, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and don;t forget to date/sign your comments here cos I'm not around so much and I never know how old your posts are! Cheers --mikaultalk 23:50, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Userpage
Thanks for that tip. I've just done it, and yes, it is a lot neater!

I presume that we're still adopter-adoptee for the time being, no? I've been learning bits and pieces, beavering away on the Spanish wine regions, and generally exploring and reading! --BodegasAmbite 09:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC) mikaultalk 15:12, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You're doing just fine from where I'm sitting! I'm always here for you, you know that :o)

Photos
You wouldn't have any photos of "Airén" grapes would you? or know where I could get some for the article I'm writing (I'm trying to take it up to a B) --BodegasAmbite 09:11, 5 June 2007 (UTC) mikaultalk 18:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Annoyingly, for such a common grape, I can't find a single free licensed image anywhere. Best bet: get your camera out! The hardest thing (for me) is knowing what variety you're photographing. I currently know where I can find definitive Merlot and Tempranillo vines (cos I know the bodega well) but you might be in a privileged position in that regard.. assuming you're halfway decent with a camera, that is!

I have a fairly standard Olympus digital camera, and it takes OK photos if I put the resolution to its maximum setting. I do in fact have lots of photos already of the vines, vineyard, bodega etc. I'm sure there must be some of a bunch of Airén and Tempranillo! I will look them out and see if there are any decent ones. --BodegasAmbite 10:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Some pointers: the most important thing is good lighting – evening is much better than noon. No flash! Next, use a tripod if you can, helps you frame the subject better and stops "camera shake". Set your camera to max resolution, highest quality (biggest file size) and let the camera do the rest (if you're into manual exposure, manual focussing, etc, so much the better, but it's really not important with compact cameras) Finally, don't worry about getting close and tight to your subject, pull back a little bit and crop later. It's surprising the improvements you can make afterwards if you leave yourself something to play with, and Olympus lenses tend get a bit soft towards the corners so they're best cropped off. I'll happily "tweak" your shots for you; go user:MIckStephenson and click "email this user" under "toolbox" on the left of the page, and I'll mail you back another address you can use he says, pretending he hasn't seen the offer of free sample wine below.. :o)) mikaultalk 10:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure they would be fine. Olympus cameras have great optics, no worries there. As I say, you're in a privileged position, having access to what you know to be a certain variety and it sounds like you have sufficient knowledge, of photography as well as vines, to shoot something specifically for your articles. Apart from anything else, it's easier than trying to find "that shot I did last year, or was it the year before," etc. Now is a good time to get vine shots: at the moment I'm shooting lots of vines (before they go completely mad!), I'll break for the summer and then get shooting again towards harvest.

Proposition (decent!)
Would you like to try a bottle of my wine? I would very much appreciate your feedback. At the moment I only have the Blanco joven available (100% Airén from October 2006). The Tinto joven (100% tempranillo) is finished, and the tinto crianza is not ready for bottling yet. If you send me an address, I'll send a bottle to you by post. --BodegasAmbite 10:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC) Thanks! mikaultalk 11:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Fab! That would be great, I'd be honoured to be a remote taster.. pity about the young tempy, I'm a huge fan. I've only ever once had a varietal Airén, so that would be lovely! I've posted instructions as to how to mail me above.

Where is 'above'? I'm just back from a long lunch and coundn't see an address after a 10 second glance!!!!! Sorry about the young tempy! next year!! --BodegasAmbite 15:50, 6 June 2007 (UTC) mikaultalk 17:40, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
 * heheh I have a similar lunch booked for tomorrow :) look at the end of the last section on this page, the one above this one about the Airén images you wanted, after my waffle about how to photograph vines. I'd maybe leave the photographing til tomorrow, if I were you... :))

Well, I followed your directions but there's no email address, just this message "This user has not specified a valid e-mail address, or has chosen not to receive e-mail from other users." :( --BodegasAmbite 08:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Oops! My fault, I forgot to activate the "receive email" thing. Should work now! mikaultalk 17:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Photos
I did it! I looked out my photos (on CD) and uploaded two of them into WikiCommons and then inserted them into my test page, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:BodegasAmbite/sandbox. If you have time, please have a look and maybe fix anything that needs to be fixed! It was quite straight-forward really but basically I just copied the source code (or whatever its called) from other pages with photos already inserted. --BodegasAmbite 12:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC) (PS. there's no email address where you said!)
 * Yes, just use the boilerplate template and you're fine. Nice photos, nothing really to do except a little crop and "enhance", which I've just done. Hope you like! mikaultalk 18:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for cropping, enhancing and tweaking the photos! I've sent you an email. --BodegasAmbite 08:27, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Airén
Hi, thanks for the comments, but I don't quite understand them :(


 * apart from the reliance (almost total) on direct inline quotation from your sources. Here and there it's a good idea, especially from historical sources, but mostly you ought to be summarising and interpreting your sources in your own words, perhaps using a footnote system like reflist to cite each entry

Wot this mean?


 * You have an excellent writing style

Surely you jest?? The text in the History section I translated from a web page, but I think it's a pretty horrible overly formal wordy style, and certainly not very 'encyclopedic'. Another problem is that said webpage (imianet.org) has disappeared! I think the organisation in question was reorganised and absorbed/merged into another offical body and all that info has gone! So I'm not quite sure what to do with regard to the references and sources etc. Could I cite the original texts?

Please keep butting in :) all encouragement/criticism/etc most welcome. Will be keeping an eagle-eye on letterbox in anxious expectation :) --BodegasAmbite 09:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

By all means, cite original texts. Some argue it's "better" than online refs, more academic. I'll come to that later. Formal is good and wordy is bad, but your style seems very to-the-point, which is perfect for an encyclopedia. Quotes aren't a bad idea, don't get me wrong, just you would normally use them sparingly, either to express a contentious opinion (as opposed to a fact), or recite a well-known text, or to back up something you've written which might seem unlikely, or anywhere that a basic descriptive passage would be inadequate. Looking again at the Airén article, tha fact is you've just been incredibly thorough and the quotes in the History section are actually quite appropriate – apologies for not seeing this earlier!. However, as you get nearer modern texts, like Peñin (he needs an article, there's not even a Spanish wiki one!) and Robinson, I think you should avoid quoting them directly. There may even be a copyright issue! Don't worry about using phrases used in the source text, but don't copy it verbatim either. I've had a go at transcribing his quote, to give you an idea:


 * Airén has had a bad press, due largely to the fact that use of the grape has been restricted to inferior processing, rather than production of fine wines. Historically, low productivity from low-density plantations, plus the traditional method of fermenting in terra cotta fermentation vats, has proven a double barrier to the emergence of a quality Airén wine. As a result, practically all Airén musts have traditionally been mixed in with those from other regions, or sent for distillation.

(They used to make us do this in English Comprehension at school, as it really forces you to understand a text. I find it etches it into my (appalling) memory much better than just reading. ANYway...)

Have a look at some of these "style" guides, which might give you some more pointers: This footnotes guide is useful. If you can cite original texts (and you really do need to if you're quoting them) use Template:Reflist. You place your reference between tags at the nd of the quote, and it magically places the ref at the foot of the page – but only if you've put the template at the bottom of the page!

Quotations – check out the Blockquote link, nice way of doing it;

The Guide to writing better articles might give you a few tips too. If any of this isn't clear, just let me know. I'll happily copyedit the finished thing; I do think the Airén article is shaping up to be one of the best grape articles we have, so there's incentive all round! Cheers for now, mikaultalk 10:58, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all that. Will take it all into account when I get round to working more on the Airén article. (I guess I'll have to send you a bottle of that Tempranillo crianza when I get round to bottling it :) !!!!!! ). --BodegasAmbite 12:51, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Tortoise FPC
Thanks for the help and guidance. What do you suggest I do with the current nomination? Regards Muhammad Mahdi Karim (talk) 11:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi, glad to be of help :) If you'd come to WP:PPR first, I'd have advised you to replace the image at the top of Leopard Tortoise with the "Alterntive 1" image, but it's really a bit late to be messing around with background stuff like this. I suppose the best thing would be to remove all except Alt 1, but it's too late now, as there are existing comments referring to all of them. Quite frankly, I would encourage you to withdraw the nomination and re-nominate the best image at a later date: it's ultimately up to you which you do, but I'm concerned that the the lack of article for Alt 1 (the only one with a real chance, I think) will disqualify it anyway, as things stand. --mikaultalk 19:37, 18 November 2007 (UTC)