User:Matia.gr/Arvanites sources

my involvement with Arvanites and related articles
The following might be presented as my formal statement at Requests_for_arbitration along with my proposals about all the relevant problems.

I am a man who likes to read, a bibliophile. I joined WP believing that I could help this encyclopedic project, even with my minor contributions.

I knew that Arvanites identify as Greeks and I have some friends who are Arvanites and they are always offended if someone calls them Albanians. I have also read some books that had some side-notes about Arvanites mostly with regards to their part in the greek revolution of 1821. I've tried to help that wiki with pointing out their cultural identity and their history, when User:Albanau thought that these people are ethnic Albanians. I believe User:Albanau at some point understood who are the Arvanites, and that while they have a light connection with Albanians they don't consider themselves as Albanians. At some point, User:REX joined the discussion.

Early September he filed a RFC for history and linguistics and I supported that move, because while the Helsinki report was discussed and there was a consensus about the article in general, I agreed with User:REX that the linguistics and the history part of the wiki were insufficient. After few days, that user convinced me to find sources to support what I said about their historical and cultural identity. And as we didn't have any responses from the RFC, I've desided to go and search public libraries in my free time. I had gathered a lot of sources about their history and their music, but I choose to present only Biris and Moraitis because of lack of time to sum up the rest sources and because every book I got my hands on had refferences to Biris work.

During the last days of september until today I've got too tired of the constant personal attacks and at some point I became WP:COLD. I don't know how would someone else react in my place, but now I have some cold feelings for wikipedia. I would like to finish 2 or 3 articles that I could help, for example Arvanites. But I am so WP:COLD that I'm thinking of staying totally out of edits and let someone else sort everything out. I'm unsure. +MATIA &#9742; 00:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Biris
Kostas Biris: I had added two books with isbns in Arvanites. Who disputes Biris (Κώστας Μπίρης or Κωνσταντίνος Μπίρης in greek)? Who uses his work Arvanites, the Dorians of modern Hellenism (Αρβανίτες, οι Δωριείς του σύγχρονου ελληνισμού) as a referrence? +MATIA &#9742; 22:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * http://arvasynel.gr/bibliografia.html

Brian Joseph
On one of the links I've presented, he explains the problem with the terms language and dialect. On another he writes that Arvanitika share a common origin with Tosk, and that Arvanitika are like ancient Shqip (he also has a diagram somewhere, showing that Arvanitika do not derive from Tosk).
 * link1
 * link2
 * link3
 * link4

Aristeides Kollias
an anonymous editor added some bits from Kollias. Kollias wrote the book "Arvanites and the origin of Greeks". Perhaps Kollias should be mentioned too. I haven't mentioned Kollias, because at some parts of his book can be questionable. For example he is against the Indo-Europeans theory, and he stretches the Pelasgian theory to say that Albanians originate from Arvanites - if I remember correctly.

Thanasis Moraitis
Moraitis had worked with Kollias for some period. He did an extensive search for Arvanitika songs. The book I've mentioned has about 150 songs, musical analysis, and some texts about history and Arvanitika language. He refferences some other, smaller, books on Arvanitika songs.

Peter Trudgill
Peter Trudgill studied Arvanites and Arvanitika. According to his studies, Arvanite speaking are from 30.000 to 140.000(?) in the whole Greece. The 1951 census give a figure of 23.000 speakers of Arvanitika.

Ethnologue
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=aat

Arvanitika Albanian language

alternative names: Arvanitika, Arvanitic, Arberichte

see also Ethnologue

Robert Elsie
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:b0XWh_7L2zIJ:www.elsie.de/pub/b08.html+www.elsie.de/pub/b08.html+Martin+CAMAJ+albanian+dialects+Italian+Greece

Robert Elsie, Anthology of modern Albanian poetry, An Elusive eagle soars, ISBN 1-85610-017-0

As a linguistic minority, the Arbëresh now consist of about 90,000 speakers, most of whom live in the mountain villages of Cosenza in Calabria and in the vicinity of Palermo in Sicily. Their language, which still does not benefit from the official status accorded to other national minorities in Italy (German, French, Slovenian etc.) is moribund due to the strong cultural influence of Italian and to economic emigration. It is extremely archaic and differs substantially from the Albanian now spoken in the Balkans. Communication is difficult if Arbëresh speakers are not familiar with standard literary Albanian.

the language does not enjoy any official status. Arvanitika, which is dying out rapidly, is thought to be the most archaic form of Albanian spoken today.

comment: Arvanitika is closer to Shqipe, and Arvanites called their language Arvanitika (or Arber* something) and not Albanian since ever. +MATIA &#9742; 11:22, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:uG5gOGzMYGkJ:www.elsie.de/pub/pdf_articles/A2001CountriesCultures.pdf+rhotacism+Albanian+century&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8

Tsitsipis
http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/71d89376d6ec1cb3a19afeb4da09e526.html

the Helsinki report
http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html

most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying.

This report should be cross-checked with other sources because it has some pov sections. But the helsinki report never refers to Arvanitika as a dialect. It calls it language, warns the academics not to tell to Arvanites that it is Albanian language or that they are Albanians, and later on the report it calls them Albanians, contradicting itself. +MATIA &#9742; 11:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Berisha
Sali Berisha had described during the 90s, the Arvanites as an Albanian minority in Greece and that resulted in protests of the Arvanitic community in mass media. +MATIA &#9742; 19:44, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

google search
As I've stated before, I dislike google search, because it can be misleading in disputed topics.
 * keywords: Arvanitika -wikipedia results: 560
 * keywords: Arvanitic -wikipedia results: 274

What is all this fighting about? (from Talk:Arvanites)

 * Dialect vs language:Pointless dillema. Read: Dialect. The creteria of distinguishing a language from a dialect in our case are to a large extent political. Some Albanians want to consider Arvanites as Albanians, so for political reasons they like to consider Arvanitica as a dialect of Albanian language. Greeks don't like that, and for political reasons like to consider that a different language. Has Albanian or Greek nationalism much to do with the language itself as a form of comunication? No.
 * Arvanites as a national minority: Some Albanians want to consider Arvanites as an Albanian unrecognised minority. They have to have a look at Nation (The nationals (the members of the "nation") are distinguished by a common identity, and almost always by a common origin, in the sense of ancestry, parentage or descent). Do Arvanites have a common identity? They ancestors maybe did. Do modern Arvanites and Albanians have a common identity? I don't think so. Do Arvanites and Albanians have a sense of same ancestry, parentage or descent? Some Albanians have that sense. Do Arvanites have that sense too? No. Someone belongs to a nation if he/she believes that he/she belongs to it. If he/she believes otherwise, he is not a member of that nation. Do Arvanites feel Albanians? No.
 * Reference to NGOs. Do these organisations have a "NPOV policy"? Can they make mistakes or "mistakes"?
 * Language-minorities. Some greeks and some albanians cannot ditinguish between a minority language and a language of a minority. A minority language is a language that is spoken less than another language. A language of a minority is a language used by a religious or another distinguishable minority. Turkish in Greece, Greek in Albania are languages of minorities. Arvanitica in Greece and Gheg in Albania are minority languages, because they are spoken by the minority of people.
 * Greeks disliking that Arvanites may have a common ancestry with Albanians: What's so bad about having a common ancestry with someone that belongs to another nation? Having a common ancestry with an albanian or a greek or a german doesn't make you an albanian or a greek or a german. See above (my second point).
 * Nationalism in the most stupid sense. Living in a specific country does nececerily mean that you have to accept and fight for what you are told (or not told) in school? Why does a Greek or an Albanian have to argue to support the "NPOV" facts he/she is told from the day he/she is born?--Mik2 20:10, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

language vs. dialect
Thought it might be useful to have input from someone who knows something of linguistics and identifies with neither Greek nor Albanian. I haven't read all of this dispute, so forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said.

There are three contradictory ways of distinguishing 'language' from 'dialect': Finally, very often the word 'language' is used ambiguously in the sense of 'idiom', without implying either a language-level or dialect-level relationship with another idiom. "The American language" etc.
 * One is that a 'language' is a standardized idiom with literature and governmental support, while a 'dialect' is nonstandard, and often by implication substandard and spoken by the uneducated. This usage is why people often become offended if their idiom is called a 'dialect'. This of course is a social/political and often discriminatory definition: the 'a language is a dialect with an army' position.
 * Another is the test of mutual intelligibility. Generally, if a speaker of idiom A, who has had no exposure to idiom B, moves to a B-speaking area and can pick it up in a couple weeks, then A and B are considered dialects of language C. By this definition, Chinese, German, and Arabic are not single languages, while Russian and Ukrainian are dialects of a single language. (I know one Ukrainian who says he speaks 'a dialect of Russian'). Of course, this is a very difficult standard to meet in many cases. For example, is Mixtec one language, or forty? There are very very few languages where controlled studies have been done to determine whether, say, a representative population from town A can converse at FSI level 3 with a representative population from town B. So, although this might seem the most objective and linguistically most justified definition, it doesn't always work well in practice.
 * A third is ethno-linguistic identity. That is, if two peoples consider their idioms to be separate languages, then they are, even if mutually intelligible. A good example of this is Hindi and Urdu, which are commonly considered separate languages despite the fact that speakers very often can't tell the difference if they're not told what someone is speaking. A more recent example is Bosnian. There are problems here too, of course. For example, many Macedonians are of the opinion that they speak the Macedonian language, but many Bulgarians consider it to be 'just' a dialect of Bulgarian. Usually in such cases it is the opinion of the speakers of an idiom that are more highly valued, but of course speaker opionion may also be sharply divided along political, religious, or class lines.

So my 2 cents are that simply calling something a 'language' or a 'dialect' is not very informative. There often is no simple answer. Rather, if you wish to convey the essence of an idiom to your audience, you need to cover all bases: how is the idiom perceived by its speakers? how is it perceived by outsiders? how readily intelligible is it to related idioms? what kind of recognition does it enjoy? Different readers might be interested in the social aspect, linguistic aspect, or political aspect, and I don't think it should be our job to decide for them which they should consider. kwami 01:09, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

no, not all linguists would call Arvanitike a dialect. Most linguists are concerned with the grist of a language (the grammar and such), and they would call A a dialect based on mutual intelligibility. However, there is also an entire field of sociolinguistics. There are many many linguists would do not try to reduce a language down to its grammar, as if it were some sterile abstraction that could exist outside the people who speak it. Their conceptions of language are often ethnolinguistic, and many of them might call A. a language. (I say might, because I don't know any linguists who refer to it at all!) As I said above, any responsible linguist would cover both sides of the issue. If Wikipedia tries to present A. as either a dialect or as a separate language, without any clarification, then yes we would indeed look foolish. We need to do both. kwami 20:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

my request on his talk page
I've left a similar request to another user and then I 've remembered Talk:Arvanites.

I am not a linguist. Could you possibly check and parse the following:
 * link1
 * Arvanitika is a member of the Tosk group of dialects, which together with Gheg constitute Albanian. It appears from this that A is linguistically a dialect, whatever the ethnic conception may be. It has both conservative elements that have disappeared from standard Albanian, and elements assimilated from Greek.


 * link2
 * "Arvanitika, the variety of Tosk Albanian". Perhaps they're dodging the dialect/language dispute altogether. As I said elsewhere, choosing one or the other word isn't always a useful exercise.


 * link3
 * "Arvanitika is to be considered a dialect of Albanian, part of the sub-group of Albanian dialects known as the "Tosk" dielcts [sic]". Pretty clear.


 * link4
 * The book A Linguistic Anthropology of Praxis and Language Shift: Arvanitika (Albanian) and Greek in Contact received good reviews in the anthro lit, suggesting that no one took umbrage. However, "Arvanitika (Albanian)" very possibly is intended to clarify an unfamiliar name by classifying it. It doesn't specifically mean that Arvanitika is an Albanian dialect any more than "English (Germanic)" (for people who are unfamiliar with what English is) would mean that English is a Germanic dialect.
 * ""Arvanitika" most technically refers to a dialect of Albanian [...], or more accurately a cluster of dialects". Pretty clear.


 * "... the tricky thing about labelling two speech varieties as "dialects" or separate "languages" is that there are other factors that play a role besides just some measure (which often cannot be quantified in any reasonable way anyway) of "sameness", factors of a social, political, economic, etc. nature. Thus, to take an example close to Greece, Serbian and Croatian are quite similar in most respects to the extent that they pass the mutual intelligibility test for being dialects of the same language, but for political reasons now, they are largely being promoted as separate languages. [...] And there are speech forms that are generally considered dialects of the same language that are not really mutually intelligible, e.g. Yorkshire English and Texan English!  Thus Arvanitika is considered a dialect of Albanian [...] because it is roughly mutually intelligible with other varieties of Albanian. [...] Linguists are fond of saying that "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" [...], a way of emphasizing that external factors play a large role in how speech forms are classified."


 * What he's saying here is that, looking just at a grammar of the language and a dictionary, or watching two people communicate, we would consider Arvanitika to be a Tosk dialect. However, languages are social phenomena and badges of identity, not grammar books or phrase books, and which varieties actually get called dialects vs. languages is a subjective judgement call that has no single answer.

for Arvanitika? I hope you can help. Thanks!

+MATIA &#9742; 11:23, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

How about pages 3 and 4 of the 1999comp.pdf? The parts about ancient Arvanitika (or ancient Albanian depending on how you look at it) and about brother not child? +MATIA &#9742; 22:49, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Arvanitika and Standard Albanian are sister dialects of Tosk. That is, neither is a language independent of the other; they are both Tosk dialects. (Whether Tosk is a language or a dialect of Albanian is another question, of course, but it's generally considered to be a dialect.)


 * Ancient Arvanitika/Albanian per se is not mentioned in the article, so I don't know what you're referring to there.


 * To paraphrase, Arvanitika is not an endangered language, but an endangered dialect of Albanian. It's clear that this author considers A to be one of many dialects of Albanian, and not a separate language. kwami 00:54, 2 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Anyway, the reason I'm here is that +MATIA has asked me to evaluate some of his sources for the dialect/language debate. (BTW, I have no interest in either Greek or Albanian. I once tried swimming to Greece, but never made it, so I haven't even been to the Balkans.) All the sources MATIA provided except one agreed that Arvanitika was an Albanian (Tosk) dialect. One called it a sister dialect to the Standard Albanian dialect; another said that it was more precisely a group of dialects, not a single dialect. The one exception used the word "variety", perhaps to avoid the issue. However, these were all based on narrowly linguistic conceptions of mutual intelligibility, not on ethnolinguistic conceptions of self identity. One source specifically brought this up, but didn't try to resolve the issue.


 * In cases where speakers of two mutually intelligible speech varieties consider themselves to speak different languages, as in the case of Malaysian and Indonesian, or standard Hindi and Urdu, or Serbian and Croatian, then this is usually spelled out explicitly. Anything less is misleading. Calling Arvanitika and Albanian separate languages contradicts normal linguistic criteria; calling them dialects of the same language ignores the ethnolinguistic facts.


 * How about something along the line of "Arvanitika and standard Albanian are mutually intelligible varieties of Tosk Albanian. However, the people have distinct ethnic identities. Arvanitika has been stronly influenced by Greek, and they consider their language to be distinct from Albanian"? I don't know if that's an improvement, but from what I understand I don't think it misstates the case. Unless this has already been resolved? kwami 20:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

copied
sections copied to Requests for arbitration/REX/Evidence

personal attacks against User:Matia.gr by User:REX - copied

 * while blocked 23:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC) -  Bomac, don't worry about MATIA's empty threats. If you read Blocking policy you will see that personal attacks of any variety, especially of the variety that MATIA often makes against me, are not in their self justifiable cause for blocking. MATIA is bluffing, as usual. It is like when he pretends to have sources while in reality he doesn't :-) REX 23:06, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

copied

 * I've requested protection of Arvanitic language - ("I 'm afraid that User:REX will take his edit war regarding the already protected article Arvanites to Arvanitic language. See also Talk:Arvanites and Talk:Arvanitic language. Thanks.")
 * 20:10, 8 September 2005 (UTC) - ("MATIA this is your tactic. Abusing the system. Well both of us can play this game.")
 * 20:12, 8 September 2005 (UTC) - ("You don't have to worry, I won't take the edit-war to Arvanitic language as long as the POV message in at the heading. MATIA, You really shouldn't request protection of there is no edit war or vandalism going on.")
 * 20:47, 8 September 2005 (UTC) - continuing his edit war on Albanian language wiki.

REX's problem with Arvanites - copied

 * 14:40, 26 July 2005 (UTC) - "can we say Arvanitic Albanians as we say Tosk Albanians or Gheg Albanians? "
 * 15:04, 27 September 2005 - REX moving Arvanitika language, to Arvanitika Albanian
 * 17:00, 5 October 2005 - edit summary: Tweak! Greek POV has no place on this page" - comment: a revert-war, ignoring Arvanitic POV (more comments later)

Someone should notice that while this is suppossed to be a matter of linguistics the edit-war is on the article about Arvanites and not on their language.


 * User:Ninio
 * 18:42, 7 October 2005 - REX reverting Ninio, misleading edit summary and removal of accurate phrases (check wiki's history for more similar examples)
 * 12:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC) - Ninio explaining to REX the problem with the figure of 180.000 Slavic speakers in Greece (I had given him links maybe 5 more times in the past)
 * 14:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC) - REX reporting Ninio for 3RR, and my comment

above sections copied to Requests for arbitration/REX/Evidence

variety of subjects

 * various
 * 23:49, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

the "greek" problem

 * 15:41, 6 October 2005 (UTC) - ignoring the facts: census are held every decade (1981, 1991) and REX chooses to ignore it even if many people told him so and provided the statistics website.
 * asd 17:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

greek sources
(from Talk:Arvanites)

It doesn't help you to claim that you don't understand Greek or claiming that Greek sources cannot be used. If they can't be used why are you a translator from Greek to English? But don't worry. Brian Joseph is not Greek. So if you have a problem with Greeks (see Biris) we'll use BJ's english. +MATIA &#9742; 14:33, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Verifiability,

to be updated

 * 14:09, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 14:20, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Talk:Arvanites - early september
 * 19:42, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

untitled

 * 15:13, 27 September 2005: "is it really a personal attack to call someone a troll after he repeatedly associated me with nazis? Is there a word that could describe that behaviour, the double standards and the circular logic, that is not a p.a.? MATIA 15:08, 27 September 2005 (UTC)"
 * had mistaken my user page with my user talk page probably at 15:31, 27 September 2005 (UTC): "try to maintain civility, even in the face of attacks. I don't claim it's easy, but I assure you that it will have better results."
 * 16:05, 27 September 2005 (UTC): "I'm getting rather pessimistic with WP - it reminds me the tower of Babel. Or maybe I'm too much wiki-stressed these days. Thanks. MATIA"
 * From Talk:Arvanites - Tony suggests WP:ANI
 * I mean it. Stop discussing whether this person or that is a sock puppet. Here, discuss the article. Take comments about your suspicions of sock puppetry and whatnot to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. --Tony SidawayTalk 18:25, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 20:30, 30 September 2005 (UTC) deleted from WP:ANI
 * I'm thinking of just handing out a block to anybody contributing to thus silly squabble on this page. This is appalling behavior on all sides, and you should all stop it immediately. --Tony SidawayTalk 18:39, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Don't. That way leads to the dark side. Now if the various combatants would be good enough to accept that this is not a matter for AN/I they can persue the proper channels of the disspute resolution process.Geni 19:00, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well maybe I'll just delete the crap. This is like when the drains back up an and the sewage just spills out. Are these mutts even capable of understanding NPOV and NPA? --Tony SidawayTalk 19:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Woof! :D--Theathenae 19:55, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Despite their claims to the contrary, both sides are clearly interested in pursuing this dispute. Here's a suggestion: go use the proper venue (RfC, RfAr). Do it now. This garbage should all be deleted.--Scimitar parley 20:18, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Tony_Sidaway: I had listed 4-5 examples of personal attacks against me on WP:ANI, and now the whole section is gone? +MATIA ☎ 20:50, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Oh it all became ridiculous so I deleted it. Look, there's a thing called Wikipedia:Resolving disputes. Read it and follow the suggestions. This business of screaming about how horrible somebody else is doesn't work. --Tony SidawayTalk 21:47, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "I'm not screaming anything Tony. But I do believe that it was unfair to be treated the same way as the one who attacked me. Thanks for your answer. +MATIA ☎ 21:54, 30 September 2005 (UTC)"
 * But know I do scream: INJUSTICE! +MATIA &#9742; 19:54, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Still trying to parse and sort it out. +MATIA &#9742; 22:22, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

blocked while not-editing

 * From my contributions (I wasn't editing): 17:55, 4 October 2005 and then 18:56, 5 October 2005.
 * 14:32, 5 October 2005 Tony Sidaway blocked "User:Matia.gr" with an expiry time of 3 hours (Blocking REX, Theathenae and matia.gr briefly for persistent dogfighting on Arvanites)
 * User_talk:Matia.gr: Hi Matia, I was just casually glancing at Special:Ipblocklist and I noticed that you have been blocked. I suggest you try to evade the block using sockpuppetry like Theathenae did and maybe then you'll understand why I am not a sockpuppet like you ridiculed me as. GrandfatherJoe 15:17, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Requests for page protection - Arvanites: Could somebody please lock the page Arvanites because there is a dreadful edit-war going on there. See edit history. GrandfatherJoe 15:43, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia:Requests for page protection - Arvanites: Oh I was watching that page and blocked the three worst offenders for three hours apiece. I hope they'll take the hint. --Tony SidawayTalk 16:28, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Tony Sidaway: I'm sorry to disturb you but someone (REX, Theathenae or Matia.gr) is using a sockpuppet on Arvanites while they are blocked. The sockpuppet is Thrakiotis (Special:Contributions/Thrakiotis). GrandfatherJoe 16:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * They haven't. Someone is using a sockpuppet on it Thrakiotis (Special:Contributions/Thrakiotis). GrandfatherJoe 16:30, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll clear the calumnies against me and I'll seek apologies for the injustice I've suffered. +MATIA ☎ 18:56, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * User_talk:Tony_Sidaway: REX asks for advice: "I see, that sounds like good advice. I'll prop the question to them again calmly and rationally and see what happens. REX 19:12, 5 October 2005 (UTC)"

I have to take a break but there must be a lot of things missing. +MATIA &#9742; 23:24, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * 17:13, 7 October 2005 (UTC) - trying to warn User:Ninio who was able to see that there was a consensus in the past at Arvanites


 * 14:35, 5 October 2005 (UTC) - is this a warning? I thought the warnings went to user talk pages before blocking. even vandals get test4
 * "This is appalling behavior on all parts. I've blocked REX, Theathenae and matia.gr for three hours as a warning for extreme incivility, personal attacks and edit warring. Please find a way to communicate with one another without making nonsensical and irrelevant accusations. --User:Tony Sidaway"
 * 14:40, 5 October 2005 (UTC) - ...asking questions later: was it a controversial move?
 * ditto
 * 16:36, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "Please, I've just blocked those three and now I find a new editor,, and continuing this sterile revert warfare. Please, both of you, stop this. It makes you both look just as bad as the three I have blocked, and only fuels the suspicion that you may be sock puppets of the blocked editors."


 * 23:23, 5 October 2005 (UTC) - some advice
 * 23:33, 5 October 2005 (UTC) -some questions
 * "It's very difficult for me not to point out that a) I weren't even here editing when I got blocked b) you haven't contacted me for clarifications from me or showing and explaining to me where I did what wrong c) you didn't check what was happening here thoroughly d) you never showed that you care who attacked repeatedly whom for a long period e) you didn't check the participants on that debate. anyway, we all know I'm not wp:cool tonite after my block by you... so I'll try to stop here."
 * "And I can't help wondering how would you react if you were labeled in any unwanted way for many months. And then finding out that while you were away you got blocked. No, I can't understand you. We have a proverb in Greece: If the foot hurts you shouldn't cut your hand. (this means that treatment is needed where the problem is and not in other parts)"
 * 02:11, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "I wish. I see no significant improvement in the behavior of any party to this argument, save a marked reluctance to resume the edit war. They're still not listening to one another."


 * compare with:
 * Wikipedia_talk:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard - 7 October 2005 (UTC)

"would be to start imposing sanctions for inflammatory or insulting remarks (such as accusing others of lying) and general stubbornness (such as insisting on formal apologies). Not sure if that would have the desired effect though."
 * 18:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

"Revert paroles and personal attack paroles, perhaps even as part of a preliminary injunction, may be in order"
 * 09:41, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

DEUX EX MACHINA or agent provocateur?

 * GrandfatherJoe
 * 13:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * "I've been doing some reading on this subject after REX's e-mail where he was pleading for help. In my view, MATIA and Theathenae are vandalising the articles. It is perfectly clear that this language is a dialect of Tosk and no word games on their part will change that fact. Actually I am puzzled over what REX said. If UNESCO and Ethnologue use the name Arvanitika Albanian as the primary name for this language, then why isn't it being used in place of this somewhat artificial name Arvanitic language? If you read Ethnologue you will see that its list of alternative names is often challenged. In my opinion again, I believe that the name at the heading (Arvanitika Albanian) is the only appropriate name, which incidentally happens to be the name used by the UNESCO report. I don't know what REX, MATIA and Theathenae think that they are doing. You cannot pick and choose what parts of sources to use and which parts to ignore at your discretion. Wikipedia works based on neutrality (see NPOV) and given that our primary sources call this language Arvanitika Albanian, then why isn't that name used? This other name lacks Verifiability as Ethnologue's alternative name lists are often challenged, therefore the name Arvanitika Albanian is obviously the NPOV name. If you read No original research you will find that Wikipedia policy requires that you unconditionally accept what it verified in reliable sources providing that it is relevant. If you lot think that you can pick and choose which policies to accept and which parts of which sources to use based on your personal whims, then Wikipedia will become a hopelessly lame encyclopaedia. I sincerely hope that the three of you will mend your ways and behave like responsible adults."
 * short version:Hello, I'm GrandfatherJoe, REX mailed me for help, MATIA and Theathenae are vandals...

check edit summaries, articles of interest and arguments when they discuss. what's happening?

 * Special:Contributions/GrandfatherJoe
 * Special:Contributions/REX
 * Special:Contributions/Grymnir


 * there are two more official accounts that User:REX had used in the past and they'll be provided upon request. +MATIA &#9742; 12:42, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

pattern matching

 * Special:Contributions/Grymnir
 * 11 contributions in Main
 * 7 of them are reverts in Arvanitika language
 * talk pages
 * edit summaries
 * "(rvt / What are you talking about? You are disputing "ethnologue.com", the Greek Helsinki HRW Comittee as also the Oxford Dictionary mentioned by the other member below! Based on... what?)"
 * to be continued


 * Special:Contributions/GrandfatherJoe
 * contributions
 * Goodevening, I'm pleased to meet you or "I've been doing some reading on this subject after REX's e-mail where he was pleading for help. In my view, MATIA and Theathenae are vandalising the articles." "Actually I am puzzled over what REX said. If UNESCO and Ethnologue use the name Arvanitika Albanian as the primary name for this language, then why isn't it being used in place of this somewhat artificial name Arvanitic language?" - 13:27, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * At that time his most contributions were on Talk:Cornish people, Talk:Cornwall, Talk:Macedonian Slavs
 * Hot words: nationalism, nationalists, "I wonder what that means :-)", "I suggest that you all read Wikipedia:NPOV, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not."
 * UNESCO holy word - 16:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)
 * if REX says the holy words...
 * 3 edits in Arvanites
 * 2 of them while REX, MATIA, and Theathenae were blocked
 * fields of interest: 21 edits in Main more than 50 edits, less than 100, in wiki-talk (at 22:43, 7 October 2005 (UTC))
 * Arvanites, Talk:Cornish people, Talk:Macedonian Slavs, Talk:Cornwall


 * Special:Contributions/REX
 * fields of interest
 * Cornish people, Arvanites,

after my block

 * Special:Contributions/144.15.255.227
 * User talk:144.15.255.227

my involvement with Arvanites and related articles
User:Matia.gr/Arvanites_sources

to be updated - RFArb
I would prefer you writing that report instead of trolling. As for the census of 1986, you may have forgotten it but everybody else can verify that no census was held in 1986. MATIA 15:34, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * 15:34, 13 September 2005
 * and round again
 * 17:54, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
 * f you want to investigate multiple accounts, check Matia.gr's sockpuppet User:Mik2 or Theathenae's sockpuppet User:Thrakiotis. Matia's sockpuppet was made to double vote on Talk:Macedonian Slavs/Poll I believe and now he has double voted again. What is interesting is that I don't have an IP match with ANY OTHER ACCOUNT, WHERE ARE THE SOCKPUPPETS???


 * 21:24, 31 October 2005
 * 11:06, 1 November 2005


 * Requests_for_arbitration/REX


 * 16:57, 7 October 2005 - copied


 * - 31 August 2005 (UTC): I think both mediation and RfC should be done. The problem is that the neutral guys, apart from having very much patience, must be willing to search for all the resources they can, to understand the bigger picture.


 * User_talk:Matia.gr
 * User_talk:Matia.gr


 * User_talk:Bomac


 * 14:32, 23 October 2005 my changes on Arvanites
 * 14:36, 23 October 2005


 * 17:40, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 14:41, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 12:19, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * 17:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * his comment: I don't get it. Everything I said can be found on the Helsinki Report. I never used the phrase ethnic Albanians, MATIA. You are lying (as usual). I also think that it's fair to point out that a consensus was never reached, there was always dispute, from the top of the talk page till the bottom. You also say all the facts. Which facts? You haven't provided a single source to support your arguments and you directly contradict the word of such reliable documents such as the cited report. You are a liar, there is no doubt about it. Gee, it's so sad the lengths you will go to try and discredit me. So sad :-))) REX 17:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * 18:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * "Proof that you can be reffered to as a "good man"" User:Macedonian|Macedonian 03:57, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Mr Sterbinski refrain from questioning my integrity and my honour. - my response
 * his comment: Hear that Mr Sterbinski, you're not allowed to question MATIA's integrity and honour. MATIA must be afraid of something, but what? They say that an honest man has nothing to fear, but MATIA seems to be afraid? Is it possible that the honour he is always babbling about doesn't exist. MATIA, you can't just say you have honour, you have to behave accordingly. Deeds mean more than words, remember. You dismissed the idea of mediation, would a man of honour do that? I don't think so. REX 18:44, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29&diff=26346940&oldid=26344510


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Macedonians_%28ethnic_group%29&diff=prev&oldid=26369100


 * 03:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * REX, do not get in MATIA's game of accusations for PA. I can suggest we to report him for destroying the articles by overlinning them. Also we can report him for his completely unconstructive and irritating comments during our disscusions on "Macedonians (ethnic group)"'s talk page. That guy is getting close to the edge of my patience... Macedonian 03:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * 08:32, 25 October 2005 (UTC) - restoring (2nd time) my comments


 * User:REX/Petition
 * User:Rexhep_Bojaxhiu
 * AMA_Requests_for_Assistance
 * link

to be updated - more

 * [WP AN]
 * User talk:SuperTroll
 * User talk:HyperTroll
 * User talk:EL ZORRO


 * I've removed unsupported calumnies from two user pages +MATIA &#9742; 21:33, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
 * rv grafiti
 * rv grafiti


 * prob
 * 149

more notes

 * Wikipedia_talk:Personal_attack_intervention_noticeboard
 * Blocking policy
 * 3rd note


 * http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Wales&diff=20103571&oldid=20103163