User:Maunus/Talk:Archivepage2

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Hello, I'm looking to learn Classical Nahuatl and I'm not sure where to start.
I see you speak it. Is there any way I could contact you via AIM/Email? the previous unsigneed comment was written by User:Abnerian on 24 Nov.


 * You could buy Thelma Sullivans Compendium of Classic nahuatl grammar. Or you could start reading the articles here on wikipedia such as Classical Nahuatl grammar, most of which have good references sections - get thee books that are referenced and read them. Also I don't speak Classical nahuatl - no one does- classical nahuatl is a written language that hasn't been spokeen for three hundreed years. If you want to learn a spoken variety the only thing to do is go somewhere where it's spoken (i.e. mexico). Oh and please sign talkpage comments. Maunus 05:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I wrote that at 4 AM or so. I'd like to hear a recording of it...Do you know where I might find one? -- Abnerian 17:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As I said Classical nahuatl is not a living language, it doesn't have any speakers. However in the game civIV warriors from different civilizations have been given voices in their actual language. The aztec warriors speak classical nahuatl - even if their phrases aren't grammatically correct they still give you a good idea of what classical nahuatl may have sounded like- they are recorded by a native speaker of modern nahuatl but with words from classical. Follow this link to listen to the soundfiles of the aztec soldiers. If you would like to hear modern nahuatl you could look at this website which has a collection of stories from the bible in mexican indigenous languages. Or you can listen to nahuatl words fromt the dialect of Isthmus-Mecayapan Nahuatl HERE. Or see biblical videoclips in different nahuatl dialects HERE (at thevery bottom of the page).Maunus 21:07, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

yikes
Hi Maunus,

I have one paper due tomorrow, three due next week, and two final exams the week after that. I apologize for being unable to engage in lengthy discussion etc. But I'll try to leave one comment, and will happily return to this topic two weeks from now, if there is still a need to discuss it.

--Ling.Nut 14:02, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your support
Thank you, sir, for your recent notes of support. I did a few minor clean-up edits today and hope, in the coming days, to find a quiet corner to actually add some content. Appreciatively yours, Madman 06:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Great to have you back Madman - I am sure you will find a quiet corner somewhere. Luckily not everything is as controversial as Olmec origins. Maunus 09:34, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Edward Sapir
Sorry for tagging the Edward Sapir article as unreferenced, I was being a bit overeager. Kncyu38 09:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * No problem. :) Maunus 10:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

OIT
you shouldn't argue with WIN, Maunus, regardless of whether he is trolling and laughing up his trunk all the time, or just extremely clueless and uneducated, it is futile. You are just encouraging him to keep filling talkpages with his rambling. dab (𒁳) 12:13, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * True.Maunus 12:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Language Templates
I did the official langauges copying the official languges of Europe template or maybe EU, perhaps it should be official languges of the OAS instead, but both can exist no? Why 1,000 languages, since the languages with less than 1,000 speakers are soooo many, i thought maybe it should be broken it up 1000+, -1000, and extinct languages of south america, maybe even less than 100, 100-1000, 1000-10000, 100,000+ but more than 1,000 seemed to be a managable number, while including every language with 2 or 77 speakers would have overly cluttered it. Why south america, not that that its any of your business but i dont mind sharing, becauase this is wikipedia and you edit what you like, what your interested in, im not gonna run and start editing the heavy metal article or barbara streasand greatest hits templates bcuz those dont really interest me. i didnt participate in any discussion bcuz it didnt occur to me, no one asked me to, and theyre really really really (3 reallys dude) hard to find the relevant ones or even where the hell they are. if im asked id be happy to put my input in any discussion. and if anyone needs help with a template im happy to do it. its mostly just cut and paste of some other similar template really. have i answered all your questions? got any more? hit me back and one final thing, in life and especially wikipedia i find people tend to pompously critizise other peoples work but at the end of the day, they are only willying to condemn you and if you stop they wont pick it up where you left off, nor will they care, its just a bunch of loud noise and its very unhelpfulQrc2006 19:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Mayan languages article copyediting notes
Maunus, per your request, I have begun a copyedit of the Mayan languages article, with the goal being to not only correct spelling and typos (none found so far) but also to provide a smooth flowing article, as well as an article that is accessible to the average reader. I hope you'll like it - if not, revert. : ) Madman 01:05, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * More copyediting. In addition to the general copyediting, I find that I am changing some links back to their article's actual name.  Two recent examples include Huracan and Popol Vuh.  In these cases, precision gets in the way of regular folks understanding the article.  In the first case, the name Huracan is so close to "hurricane" that it deserves to stay.  In the case of Popul Vuh, no one but a Mayanist will recognize Popol Wuj.  Popul Vuh has nearly 600,000 Google hits.  Popol Wuj has 698.
 * Also, I am wondering whether we shouldn't color-code the various Mayan languages. For example, within the tree graphic I could assign a separate color to each of the branches, perhaps even with carefully gradiented (is that a word?) colors for each of the dialects.  This color scheme could also be used in the map (as well as perhaps the sections headings?!?).  I would be happy, even interested, in doing this work and I firmly believe it will not only help regular folks wade thru the rather foreign names, but will add "punch" to the article.  Let me know, Madman 03:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That thing about the colours sounds great. While implementing them be sure to not carry down the same mistakes that are present in the graphics now. (switching of eastern and western branches, Achí missing from the k'iche' proper node, letter sizes on the map not reflecting population sizes). Thanks for your efforts!Maunus 05:14, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Tamoanchan
Hi Maunus. In the above-named article it is claimed that the word tamoanchan has a Nahuatl etymology. However, my sources (Miller & Taube's Ancient Gods & Symbols..) specifies that it has a Mayan origin, prob. Wastek. Have you any info or opinion to the contrary? Regards, --cjllw | TALK  11:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

native americans and islam
Hi I've noticed your dispute on the article Native Americans and Islam. This page reeks of factual inaccuracies. In fact one of the links the creator of the article seems to be a hoax on closer inspection. It is clearly sourced from this page http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2002/10/2996_comment.php#13382, a message board of all sites! If you would direct your attention to the top of the page and read the second paragraph

"For most Muslims and non-Muslims of today, this type of information is unknown and has never been mentioned in any of the the history books. There are many documents, treaties, legislation and resolutions that were passed between 1600s and 1800s that show that Muslims were in fact here and were very active in the communities in which they lived. Treaties such as Peace and Friendship that was signed on the Delaware River in the year 1787 bear the signatures of Abdel-Khak and Muhammed Ibn Abdullah. This treaty details our continued right to exist as a community in the areas of commerce, maritime, shipping, current form of government at that time which was i accordance with Islam. According to a federal court case from the Continental Congress, we help put the breath of life into the newly framed constitution. All of the documents are presently in the National Archives as well as the Library of Congress. "

The so-called Peace and Friendship treaty in question was a treaty between the American govt and Morrocco in 1786, not between the American govt and the Muslim Native Americans as the creator of the article implies and would want you to believe. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1786a.htm

one of the comments is quite interesting:

"Re: "Native American Muslims" by Jerrid Twist Friday September 03, 2004 at 08:02 AM Tsailiwolf@hotmail.com

This is in response to the outlandish claims put forth by Mahir Abdal Razzaq El. I would first like to state that the name "eagle sun walker" is not a Cherokee name by any stretch and is outlandish as someone calling themselves "big thunder" or "little weasel". Cherokee names follow a set verb and noun pattern which is not found in Mr.Mahir Abdal Razzaq El's "Indian Name".Secondly Mr. Mahir Abdal Razzaq El claims to be a "pipe carrier warrior". This term seems to be contradictory since 1) Cherokees did not have pipe carriers as can be verified by any ethnographic report and 2) Pipes are limited only to medicine man usages at Stomp Dances. The turban which was adapted by the Cherokees in the 1700s ,came indirectly from Muslims and Hindus while in England as a result of a request from the English Crown at the time as a cover for the Cherokees that were staying there. Apparently the English had a problem with scalplocks. The fashion was thus imported from the Cherokees that went over to England and became popular among the tribes. It had nothing to do with religion but rather fashion.The artwork posted by Mahir Abdal Razzaq El is copyrighted and thus permission is needed to be given by the artists to post those items. I hope Mr. Mahir Abdal Razzaq El has permission because a lawsuit could result from that. Finally, there are only three federally recognized tribes of Cherokee : 1) The Cherokee Nation (in Oklahoma), 2) The Eastern Band of Cherokee (in North Carolina) and 3) The Keetooowah Band of Cherokee (also in Oklahoma. Mr. Mahir Abdal Razzaq El stated that he was from the North Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians in New York City which is neither federally recognized nor in the geographic boundaries of where the Cherokee settled. It sounds more like a social club the promotes New Age Rituals and defamates Cherokees. Being a citizen of the Cherokee Nation by blood and raised in Northeastern Oklahoma on the Stomp Grounds i find statements such as Mahir Abdul Razzaq El unfounded, ignorant and borderline racist. Furthermore 95% of Cherokees of the 3 federally recognized tribes adherit to the Baptist or Methodist denominations of Christianity. The remainder are Stomp ( the grounds are only found in Oklahoma). It would be best for Mahir Abdul Razzaq El to come out of his closet and admit to himself that he is a borderline New Ager who knows next to nothing about the Cherokee People or their culture. I suggest that he stay in New York, admit to himself that he is a "hobby Indian" and stick to his Koran. ...............Oh and its Native American not Indian " Abstrakt 19:42, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I already knew it was another crock of ideologically motivated pseudoscientific bulls**t, but I didn't know it was that badly done. The problem is that I don't know what to do with it. In it's currnt form it is better to delete than to have, but the discussion of "native americans and islam" might actually have interesting perspectives. For example recently Mayan indians of Chiapas have begun to convert to Islam in not very small numbers. If however someone were to nominate it for deletion I would second it since it is a clearcut case of soapboxing, POV-pushing and nonnotable viewpoints based un unreliable sources.Maunus 20:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Another thing, one of the links that the creator linked to, a supposed Cherokee chief by the name of Ramadhan Ibn Wati is in fact really Cherokee leader and Confederate general Stand Watie! http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/sequoyah1.htm Abstrakt 19:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
for your thoughtful work on Mayan languages. --Homunq 20:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! :) Maunus 20:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Overdue barnstar...
Thanks! Coming from you that means a lot! Maunus 09:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I heartily second this nomination. Your output is absolutely amazing, & of amazingly high quality.  We Mesoamerican types are fortunate to have you here.  Madman 15:14, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks
Thanks for your comments and encouragement. I have a technical question that I don't know where to find an answer for. The English site has the IPA characters always available to use, but the Spanish site does not. Can someone help make that happen? It would make things much better and easier on that site. Stevemarlett 14:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I know how that is done, it is done by installing a small programme in the mediawiki code. The problem is that I don't have any idea to whom one might direct a wish to install it on the spanish wiki. I think the easiest thing for you would be opening the english cite and copy-paste the ipa characters from there (unless you learn the Unicode codes by heart).Maunus 14:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Mayan Languages
Sorry for my delay on getting to the org chart and map. I've been tied up on non-Wikipedia matters. I expect to complete at least a first attempt at the chart by Friday evening and will work on the map next week. Thanks, Madman 15:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Don't be sorry you are quite in your right to have a personal life. I am just a bit excited about the current quality of the Mayan Languages article, which I believe to be very high and growing with the completion fo your maps. Maunus 15:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Hey, I am reworking the Maya Languages Tree to show time across the horizontal access. I should have it by the end of the week.  I'm not quite sure what to do when the Image:Tree of maya languages.svg differs from the present Engish Wikipedia version, but I'll try to see what I can do and get back to you with questions.  More later, Madman 03:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The new language tree is up at Mayan Languages. It was difficult to try to put the chronology of the French tree on top of this somewhat-different tree, so I'm sure there are changes you would like to see.  Let me know what those might be.  All for now, Madman 05:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Am I done yet??? : )  The latest, and perhaps last, version is now up at Mayan Languages.  I have grouped the K'iche' and Achi as you suggested.  My major concern right now with this tree is that Q'anjobalan group is portrayed as closer to the Eastern Branch than to the Cholan branch.  Could you review?  Madman 03:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I have re-arranged the Western and Eastern branchs. Anything else??  Madman 22:15, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Native Americans and Islam
The article Native Americans and Islam is up for deletion, see Articles for deletion/Native Americans and Islam. Just thought you'd like to know. Abstrakt 05:25, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

La Huasteca
(responding to your comment on my talk page:) I'd call the article "La Huasteca", and shove the hiking trail into second place. I.e. the primary link would be to the geographical area, with a disambiguatory link to the hiking trail. As a second best solution, a disambiguation page giving both equal prominence. But, yes, the article is clearly necessary. Go for it!

--Lavintzin 19:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I was considering that but it seemed a bit rash. But I suppose it's really the best thing to do.Maunus 19:09, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I've done it, see if you like it. --Lavintzin 04:52, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Popocatépetl and Iztaccíhuatl
An article that you have been involved in editing, Popocatépetl and Iztaccíhuatl, has been listed by me for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/Popocatépetl and Iztaccíhuatl. Thank you. Tubezone 05:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Re the 'Aztec Warfare' IPA stuff.
Please have a look at my talk-page - I may have found out what happened.

Gardener of Geda 23:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Colegio de Santa Cruz de Tlatelolco
Thanks! That article needed starting. - Lavintzin 14:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It sure did!Maunus 17:44, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Endangered languages
Hello Maunus,

Well the Holidays are winding down. I'm cutting back/quitting my participation in other projects in order to concentrate on WikiProject Endangered languages (temporarily User:Ling.Nut/ELLR). I'm going to move the main page out of my userspace and into Wikipedia space very soon; probably within the next day or so.

The project is looking pretty bare-bones at present, but I think that it's best to launch it "warts and all" rather than to wait for it to be perfect (since nothing can ever be perfect).

Any and all help, comments, thoughts, etc. would be appreciated. As a WikiProject in Wikispace, it belongs to Wikipedia. I strongly invite and encourage any and all improvements that you see that you could offer.

Most of all, let's get the WikiProject trappings squared away so we can focus on the articles!

Best Regards, --Ling.Nut 21:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Just signed up.Maunus 22:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Tepecano
Hi, Maunus,

I notice you removed the RIP on Tepecano. There's a problem somewhere. There is a "Southern Tepehuan" that is very much alive (some colleagues of mine know it well), but it is not the same thing as Tepecano. In other words, one way or another the list is confusing as it stands. I mentioned to them once that they ought to get on Wikipedia and straighten this out: maybe they will sometime.

--Lavintzin 05:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem as always is unclear terminology. Tepecano as far as I know was used for one or more extinct UA language as well as for Tepehuán (probably both Northern and Southern). But I couldn't allow the list to say that southern Tepehuán was extinct since it has double the speakers of northern Tepehuán according to ethnologue.Maunus 06:23, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Nahuatl grammar quesion
Hi there Maunus. FYI someone's left a question re Classical Nahuatl grammar at Talk:Hueyi Tlatoani, if you've time you may like to take a look. Regards, --cjllw | TALK  07:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Layman's pronounciations are useful
I see you removed the "layman's pronounciation" from the Aztlan article, stating that they "really aren't useful". On the contrary, to be honest, it is the IPA pronounciations that aren't useful to the vast majority of readers. Even after a year of working in Wikipedia, I myself cannot use the IPA pronounciation, and the average visitor to Wikipedia is in the very same position. I know of no other commonly used dictionary or encyclopedia that uses IPA, and the characters are baffling to just about everybody except linguists.

I was not removing the IPA pronounciation, but rather adding a something that just about every English speaking person could interpret at first try. We need to write for these folks as well. Madman 12:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I remove laymans pronunciations and replace them with IPA whenever I find them in wikipedia because:
 * Laymans pronunciations are not standardized - your laymans pronunciation of a word and your transcription of it may be very different from someone elses.
 * They cannot be used to help pronounce sounds not present in english (the majority of foreign language sounds) - this means that when used as pronunciation guide to foreign language words they invariably give a wrong pronunciation substituting the way a word is actually prnounced with the attempt of transcribing non english sounds pronounced with an english accent in english orthography.
 * We cannot have IPA side by side with laymans pronunciations everywhere one transcription standard should be preferred.
 * Good dictionaries and encyclopedias do use IPA because there are no other accurate and standardized ways of transcribing sounds of other languages. Laymans pronunciation is for tourist phrasebooks.
 * Quite simply the Nahuatl word is not pronounced "mehSHEEkah" and wikipedia shouldn't pretend it is. The alternative is to interpret "mexicah" as an English word that is subject to english pronunciation rules in which case a pronunciation guide isn't relevant just like you dont see a laymans pronunciation of other foreign language words that have entered English. (for example the article on the originally Arabic word Jihad doesn't have a laymans pronunciation saying "GeeHAHD" but instead use the accepted transcription standard of Arabic).
 * I other words while you may think that laymans pronunciations are useful but in fact they aren't: they will give you the feeling that you know how to pronounce something when in fact the pronunciation is just as far from they way the word is supposed to sound as if you were to attempt to pronounce it in your personal english accent (because a laymans pronounciation just gives you someone elses personal english accent)Maunus 13:14, 5 January 2007


 * Quite simply, without the benefit of some sort of pronunciation spelling, the average reader of the article will look at the word "Mexica" and pronounce it "MEX i ka". Therefore, I believe it is important to give the average reader a decent approximation of the pronounciation.  I was not suggesting that we remove the IPA nor am I suggesting that a pronunciation spelling accompany every IPA, but I do think we need to realize that most folks don't know IPA and won't learn it (in fact, some browsers don't even support it [see below]).


 * My viewpoint is supported by the official Wikipedia policy which says: "Pronunciation transcriptions based on traditional English spelling are deprecated. Forms such as pro-NUN-see-AY-shun may be misinterpreted by people who speak a different dialect or whose first language isn't English. They can however be used in addition to the IPA version so that it's easy for people who don't know the IPA to understand them."  (their italics)  Madman 15:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Your articles
You're welcome - I enjoy copyediting articles like them. Are you able to provide sound files of pronunciation for the articles? I personally can't read IPA properly because JAWS doesn't support unicode characters well; I think sound files, when used properly, can add a lot to a language article. Graham 87 14:33, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be wonderful with soundfiles for all the languages but since I am not a native speaker of any of them I cannot really help with that, such recordings shoul always be done by someone who is fully competent in the language. If you want to listen to a particular language I can point you to websites with soundsamples. However most of these languages are very poorly documented and the soundfiles gathered are usually longer excerpts of biblical material prepared by missionaries and I don't think they are includable in the articles. Also they are of course copyrighted. Maunus 15:00, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd like to hear the sound of the native Mexican languages - American English speech synthesizers don't do them justice I'm afraid; mine especially has trouble with the "tl" in the languages. You might not be allowed to upload the sounds to Wikipedia, but you are allowed to link to them in the external links section as long as they don't violate copyright - in fact the point of the external links section is to include resources that cannot be added in the Wikipedia article. Graham 87 15:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Here are some links to recordings of Nawatl of Hueyapan that I have made myself. :::Vowels of Hueyapan Nawatl :::Consonants of Hueyapan Nawatl
 * And here are some links that will take you to pages with soundrecordings in many languages including many indigenous languages of mexico: this website which has a collection of stories from the bible in mexican indigenous languages. Or you can listen to nahuatl words fromt the dialect of Isthmus-Mecayapan Nahuatl HERE. Or listen to biblical videoclips in different nahuatl dialects HERE (at thevery bottom of the page)
 * Maunus 15:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links. I can now understand why a native speaker should provide sound samples; that is clear in the UCLA recording where the American English speaker is trying to immitate the speech pattern of the native Nahuatl speaker. Graham 87 04:42, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Mesoamerica
Check the Changes I've made and give your feedbackAuthenticmaya 01:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)AuthenticmayaAuthenticmaya 01:53, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Etymology of Chicomuselo/Chicomuceltec
Hi Maunus. According to the Enciclopedia de los Municipios de México, the placename "Chicomuselo" has a Nahuatl etymology, meaning something like "place of the seven jaguars". If so, would "Chicomuceltec" have a similar origin/meaning?--cjllw | TALK  06:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes that is a feasible etymology. The word with -tec is a derivation from the town though meaning "inhabitant of the place of the seven jaguars".Maunus 09:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, great. Thanks for your help, as always. --cjllw | TALK  22:31, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply
I've replied on the talk page of the template. In short, I'm sorry you're Mesoamerican architecture article now isn't included in a template - but please be consoled that it will be reborn on some manner of architectural history navigation template coming soon to an article near you.....Cheers. --Mcginnly | Natter 14:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Requests for adminship/CJLL Wright
Later--Ling.Nut 23:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You beat me to it, but technically not. :-) I had that page on my watch list before it was created. I haven't added my support because I was under the impression that one is supposed to wait until the nominee signs the "I accept" section. But I don't think it matters if one person votes early. :-)
 * I'll chip in little bits and pieces to WP:ENLANG (and also Taiwanese aborigines), but my participation will be.. probably total less than 3 hours per week. I think.


 * Hi Maunus, just dropping by to say thanks for your support on the RfA, which has now concluded successfully. It should prove another interesting dimension to my activities here, although per my comments I still plan to be orientated in the main towards editing and project-related work- guess I'll just have to see how balancing it all out goes. Anyway, thx again, cheers!--cjllw | TALK  06:28, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Obsidian Souce Map
Hey Maunus, Great job on the obsidian source map! I saw that you were the creater of it, and wanted to ask you favor. If you have the time, do you think you could change the obsidian source stars from red to another color? Like many males out there, I'm partially color blind, specifically the red-green kind, and its extremely difficult for me to see the red source stars on the green map (I have to squint and zoom in, and all sorts of other nonsense to see them). I'm sure other folks will have the same problem as well. If you don't have thte time, no problem at all - its really no big deal. Anyway, great job! -- Oaxaca dan 14:49, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks man! looks good. -- Oaxaca dan 17:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Spain bot
Please accept my apologies for the addition of the WikiProject Spain tag to the Aztec Triple Alliance and Florentine Codex articles. I'm not sure why those articles were tagged since they don't seem to fall within any of the targeted categories. Again, please accept my apologies. Espana Viva  16:21, 4 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, after looking further, the connection appears to be that, for example, the Aztec Triple Alliance occurred in Mexico during the time that Spain was establishing colonial control. You're right, that particular article would appear to be out of the scope of the Spain WikiProject, but other articles/events/people in Colonial Mexico would appear to be legitimately within the scope of the Spain WikiProject.  I guess we'll have to figure out how to draw the line!   Espana  Viva  17:00, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Mixe
Great job on the Mixe page! Just a couple questions for you: You unlinked some of the municipalities, why? And on the map, you give the traditional/indigenous names, but not the Spanish names, by which they are on many other maps people might encounter. Is there anything that can be done about this? Also, on the Mixe languages page, some of the terms, specifically in the phonology section, need to be linked. And finally, in one place you say Ayüük and another Ayuujk. I'm assuming this represents the difference between the language and the people? Thanks. Bruxism 03:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I unlinked San Pedro y San Pablo Ayutla because it was just a huge redlink, and because it is much more commonly referred to simply as Ayutla. All Mexican towns and cities have a Saint or patron name and it is common practice to refer to the city with only its name, while some maps do show the complete names equally many don,t and for example Mexican roadsigns don't. That is why I have left out the San XXX patrons of the towns. I will continue work on both pages in the next couple of days. The different between Ayüük and Ayuujk represents a difference of pronunciation since there are several Mixe variants and not one accepted standard.·Maunus·  tlahtōlli  08:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. What about using the pipestem so that the links are shorter, e.g. Ayutla, but the encyclopedia entry reflects the full official name of the town?  I know what you mean and my own experience in Mexico is limited; certainly people usually refer to a village by the Mexican name, but then again there are some villages I have heard only referred to by the Spanish name.  It would be great if no matter which one people recognized, both would link back to the same page.  I just looked at other Oaxacan municipality pages (fortunately there aren't many yet), and there is a problem of consistency.  Two entries for Mitla by the way, which need to be merged (the other is San Pablo Villa de Mitla.  So coming up with one policy and making it consistent would be the best thing.  You and I could probably do this (in our spare time) since only about 15 of Oaxaca's municipalities have entries, even stubs, thus far.  Actually, now that I pressed the "show preview" button, I see Ayutla has a link, but "San Pedro y San Pablo Ayutla" then should redirect there (no time today). Bruxism 22:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that if those towns were to have entries the wikipedia entries should be the entire name and we ould use the pipestem, but as for now none of them have and I think it is a farcry to expect that they ge articles anytime soon (the link to ayutla is a guatemalan department). I think we should wait with wikilinking the towns untill they get separate articles.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  08:31, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Site map of Teopantecuanitlan??
Maunus, would you have a site map of Teopantecuanitlan?? I'm thinking that the article needs a site map, similar to La Venta or Monte Alban. There seems to be very little data out there on Teopantecuanitlan in general, though. Let me know, and thanks, Madman 03:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * No I'm sorry. I have very little information on teopantecuanitlan, and no map at all.·Maunus· tlahtōlli  13:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Consensus wording for Greenland
You don't really need consensus wording when there's just a single person who claims something isn't true, without explaining why it isn't true and while brushing all the evidence, including assertions of his own, aside with manifestly flimsy reasoning. &#8212;Largo Plazo 20:07, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * If you noticed it wasn't really A consensus wording. I just cut the crap away and said it like it is. Greenland belonged to norway in that period. the personal union is explained below so theres no need to mention it at all at that point.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 09:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Your message
Thank you for your message and your comments, but when you know that some users are using Wiki for one of the most hideous of ideologies, Nazi-Nordicism, why are we supposed not to denounce them. Only a very naive child cannot identify this ideology following the contributions of some users here. Veritas et Severitas 21:20, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Confusing reversion by you
In the Andrés Manuel López Obrador article I changed the phrase "...like price ceilings for tortillas[72] that protect local producers of corn, " into "like price ceilings for tortillas[72] that protect local consumers of corn". Because the price ceiling protect the consumers who need to be able to buy tortillas at a reasonable price - protecting the producers would be done by fixing a minimum price. My change was then reverted with the edit summary "That is an opinion. The government's stated purpose is to protect consumers.)" This is self conrradrictory if the governments expressed purpose is to protect consumers (which I believe it is) why would you then revert the text into saying that price ceiling protect the producers (which basic economic theory says it doesn't). I am confused. please state which one you actually mean and provide an actual source stating whether the government wants to protect the consumers (which would be logical) or the producers (which would be illogical since the problem is too high prices, not too low prices). ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 20:33, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * My mistake, the government's stated purpose is to protect producers. Read Calderon's speech, and the reaction of maize producers. The argumentation is that Maize producers are being exploited by intermediaries. The pact's purpose is to limit intermediary's power, improving the terms that Maize producers have, and indirectly benefiting consumers. Hari Seldon 21:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Jeez, what a hard time!!
Maunus, I firmly believe that many of the folks who are reviewing Mayan languages are being unduly harsh and nit-picky. It certainly dissuades me from ever submitting one of "my" articles for FA status. I have made some comments on the Talk page there, disagreeing with many of the nits picked. Madman 05:40, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Maunus, I saw your comment over on madman's talk page, and I was afraid you thought my comments on Featured article candidates/Mayan languages were referring to your work - they were not (I wasn't even aware you were a non-english speaker until I recently visited your userpage - you're certainly higher then an en-3). Your english is top-notch. Instead, and I guess i should have made this clearer, I was referring to chunks of text that had been inserted by another meso contributor who enthusiastically contributes very excellant material to the project that often requires substantial revision for grammar (acutally, now that i look, I haven't seen him/her around here for awhile - hope all is ok).  Its no knock against him/her, its just how it is.  And concerning the Mayan languages article, I think, because the article is extensive and deals with a very complex topic, it just got overlooked and slipped through the cracks.  Anyway, please accept my apologies - I certainly did not mean to insult your ability to write - its absolutely excellant.  Take care -- Oaxaca dan 16:04, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In fact, I once considered changing your en-3 to an en-4, Maunus, but I decided it would be impolite to mess with your User page. Personally, I like your prose and that's why I rose up last night (when I should have been sleeping) to defend that one particular paragraph.  If I wasn't clear enough on the Talk:Mayan languages page, (ha!) I thought that that paragraph was very clear and very precise.  Yes, it was formal/academic in tone but this is not an article on the Bulbasaur (a featured article not long ago).  Madman 16:41, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys. I wanna write good and I try to write good too. But its notoriously hard to judge ones own performance in a second language. I didn't take any offense Dan I am aware that my writing can always be corrected by someone with a fresh eye - and that goes for any language I might write in. I suppose that I am prone to writing a little too academically, it's an occupational hazard. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 18:55, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Your message
Well I think you have not followed the person enough. He is intelligent enough to sometimes change his contributions to fool people. By the way, what do you think of his friend Dark T. Look at this comments in the Caucasian Race article right now. Shall we call him a Nazi, just a White Supremacist/Nordicist Propagandist or just shut up. I am sorry, but I can see the issue very clearly and I am no genius. I do not understand how other people can condone this type of use of Wiki. I know that you are a good will contributor who tries to be as neutral as possible, but if you had followed thess guys in race related articles for more than one year, like I have, I think you would change your mind. Still I agree that his friend Dark T. is much more openly a propagandist of fascist sites than Lukas, but people do not seem to care much, which gives me the impression of the quality of some people in Wiki. Veritas et Severitas 17:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I will try and follow your advice, but believe me these users are experts in playing with other people's patience. I am all the time telling myself that I will retire from here. Maybe one day I will do it, I will try again right now or in a few days. I am growing very pesimistic about Wiki in relation to political, racial, etc articles. It is a good site to find a good article about bees, but a lousy place for ideology influenced articles. My opinion is because it is one of the few places where radicals usually despised by society can find a place where they are heard and can come forward to spread propaganda and often most people do not even care, under the umbrella of "citations" and "civility". Radicals have always a much higher motivation than normal people, so they will end up gaining the upper hand. Good luck. Veritas et Severitas 20:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Niedzica Castle
You might want to have a look at Talk:Niedzica Castle, as the article's author, Poeticbent, has tracked down some additional sources for the Peruvian connection. Freederick 10:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I did and it looks much better now I must say. Very interesting story also in its less sensationalistic version.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 17:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

from user:Dspart
Ok, if you believe your version of events is superior to mine, that's great. I'll leave you to it, then.
 * 1) Bet you one hand-towel, slightly damp one corner, that my version's *much* more interesting though. -matt
 * It may be, but factuality not interestingness is the first criterion of an encyclopedia.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 11:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

An article which you started, or significantly expanded, Inuktun, was selected for DYK!
Thanks for your contributions!  Nish kid 64  22:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Babar
Where was the joke on the Babar page?--Theunicyclegirl 05:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
 * the entomology section inserted by user:dspart he has been inserting irrelevant sections and material into several articles today and yesterday.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 05:35, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Campbell,s sources
If you feel that these must absolutely be mentioned, the proper place to do so is in a "Further reading", not as an unnecessarily complicated aside of a footnote. Circeus 23:15, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's at the end of Talk:Mayan languages/Comments. I'd be more... productive but I just pulled out an all-nighter and I'm not sure whether I could manage anything coherent. Circeus 12:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Francisco Franco
Just thought I'd let you know that, for some reason, but clearly accidentally, the last two edits you did back-to-back on Francisco Franco cancelled each other out - the second edit reinstated the vandalism about Franco's successful comedy career, so I undid it. Best wishes, Bencherlite 00:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * ahh i'm sorry: Thanks for fixing it.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 03:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Rama language created
The article by Craig has some useful info. Will email it to you if you like.. do I have your address? Later! --Ling.Nut 23:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I would and you do.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 09:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Pipil revert: thanks
"Padiush" (thank you) for reverting the Pipil page. I'm a bit out of it at the moment, busy with other stuff and also nursing a minor eye injury this week. It's nice to see good teamwork! Best wishes, Alan --A R King 07:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Nice photo on Cuauhxicalli
Nice photo on Cuauhxicalli. I took the liberty of adding it to another article. Any more like that at home??? : ) Madman 12:07, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope I have lost all my photos because my pc died. I had pictures of Chalcatzingo and Xochicalco and more. This cuauhxicalli was from commons.·Maunus· · ƛ · 10:40, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Who is that guy, anyway??
Maunus, with your insight into glyphs, etc., I am wondering whether you can shed any light on a question that I raise at Talk:Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture concerning the identity of the central figure in Image:Telleriano-Remensis Codex sacrifice.jpg. Any insight would be appreciated, Madman 22:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * It's Nezahualcoyotl. Those +dead bodies aren't sacrificial victims though - they lie dead in a dustbowl because of the drouhgt and famine, according to Quiñones Keber.·Maunus· · ƛ · 10:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Misantla Totonac
Hi Maunus, thanks for the tip on the Misantla Totonac grammar. As it happens I've really become enamoured of the whole group of languages in the area where Rama is spoken, so I think I will continue to dig around there for some time. I printed out a copy of the Rama dictionary and have been collecting resources. It turns out that Kenneth Hale did some work on Ulwa. a flavor of Sumu, and wrote some very interesting stuff about it (and language revitalization in general). WRT to the Creole, I presume you've run across http://www.sil.org/silesr/2001/004/SILESR2001-004.pdf ? There is some useful info there. Best regards babbage 05:08, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Good work on Misantla Totonac! :-) --Ling.Nut 00:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Image licensing of the image you added to Pashtun people
Yup. Thanks for the removal of the image and reminding. That was a hasty thing to do! I did not read the copyright notice of the image properly before adding the image there. Sorry. Happy editing!--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Manche Chol?
Maunus, any idea what the current family classification of Manche-Chol is? Is it now called Choltic? I'm asking because I'm working on the Toquegua Wikipedia article (a prehispanic group that lived along the atlantic coast of guatemala and honduras) and Feldman and Hellmuth both classed it as Manche-Chol largely, I believe, on the basis of its geographic proximity to said speakers. I have not found any references to colonial grammars for Toquegua, though I'm still looking. Rsheptak 02:09, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As far as I know Toquegua is considered a dialect of Ch'ol. However I am not sure and I certainly don't know anything about the quality of material that is the basis for that claim. Also there is some ongoing dispute about the exact internal classiification of the Ch'olan languages Ch'orti', Ch'olti' and their relation to classic Ch'olti'an probably the discussion of toquegua as a ch'olan language fits in there. I will do some research when I find the time. Sorry not to be teribly helpful.·Maunus· · ƛ · 07:16, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * No problem. You seem to know exactly what I know.  I have looked (though not hard) for a while now for the justification for Toquegua being Cho'ol and all I can find are assertions, or that "it makes the most sense of their calendric names (Feldman)" and "Hellmuth, (in an unpublished mss which I now have - RNS), says they're Ch'ol speakers (Feldman again)".  Unfortunately, Feldman's bibliography of documents is somewhat problematic.  I checked his Archivo General de Indias listed documents and only 1 of them was an exact match for the reference he gives.  All the others had  different titles and sometimes dates, and none are digitized so checking them out will have to wait for my next visit to Sevilla.  The research situation in the Archivo General de Centroamerica is a bit dicey right now (where all the other  documents are that are referenced) because of excessive fees being charged to researchers so that's on hold as well.  I can now document that Toquegua extended into honduras along the coast at least as far as the Ulua River in the 16th C., and am working on how far inland it went.  It all hinges on the location of an indian town that I haven't been able to relocate yet.Rsheptak 18:39, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Found the reference. All of the claims of it being Chol trace back to J. Eric. S. Thompson's article on the Manche, and its a very weak claim. Rsheptak 22:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

El Salvador project
Hi. I don't know if you are interested but I have been invited to join WikiProject El Salvador and after looking at the project page I have responded critically. I would appreciate your views on the issue I raise and whether or not my response has been appropriate in your opinion, which I respect. Alan --A R King 08:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it is sort of a redundant project the aims of which would be better served if the participants joined the already existing project Central America. I agree 100% with your annoyace with the lack of focus on indigenous peoples - but I am afraid that is a bias we will have to counteract ourselves.·Maunus· · ƛ · 08:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Magliabchanopage 73r.jpg
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Tezozomoc/Tezozómoc
Hi Maunus. Thanks for adding that article, by the way. There has been some question about the use of the accent for Tezozomoc, the ruler of Azcapotzalco, since his name was not written in Spanish characters. However, every scholarly reference to the historian Fernando Alvarado Tezozómoc that I have seen in Spanish (I've seen none in English) does use the accent. Particularly, the Enciclopedia de México consistently uses the accent. Since he wrote in Spanish, I assume he used the accent himself. And the rule about penultimate accents applies only for words that end in a vowel, n or s, so it wouldn't apply here. Without the accent mark, Tezozomoc would be accented on the final syllable.

I am concerned that omitting the accent mark would make scholarly references in Spanish more difficult to locate. Also, it's apparently the way he himself wrote his name, and Wikipedia does retain the accents in names of other Spanish speakers.

--Rbraunwa 20:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Dene-Caucasian

 * 1. Why did you move the notes to the bottom of the page?
 * 2. As for the NPOV, have you noticed the references? By the way, I'm planning a section devoted to the criticisms of the hypothesis, but it cannot be all done at once.
 * 3. As to the tag, shall I make a clickable link to the listed references?
 * 4. Which of the following reasons made you use the examplefarm tag?


 * The list was created just for the sake of having such a list
 * The list is of interest to a very limited number of people
 * The list is a violation of Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information
 * The content is unverifiable or the underlying concept is non-notable
 * The list cannot be expanded beyond a handful of terms
 * The list is unlimited and/or unmaintainable
 * The list has no content beyond links to other articles, so would be better implemented as a (self-maintaining) category
 * The list is unencyclopaedic, i.e. it would not be expected to be included in an encyclopaedia.

Suggestions, objectsions, criticisms, etc. are important for the quality of articles, indeed, but next time, could you, please, explain your moves on the Talk page of the article? Thanks in advance. --Pet'usek [petr dot hrubis at gmail dot com] 21:59, 15 April 2007 (UTC)--
 * Sorry, I forgot to log in :-)))


 * More importantly, you justified your first edit with "this article needs to get a neutralization - the theory is not have any kind of following within linguistics". Well, you are wrong, as you would have seen from the long list of references. Among those that have actually examined the hypothesis (not "theory" – a theory is something bigger), I'm aware of a grand total of one (Vovin – again see references, and those of responses to him) who is not convinced. Even more importantly, the "neutrality disputed" tag says "see the discussion on the talk page", but you didn't even touch the talk page! Publish or perish. If you don't explain your reasons on the Dené-Caucasian talk page within a week, I'll remove the tag. David Marjanović 22:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of all this, Maunus, would you happen to have a citation handy for something I added to Proto-Dené-Caucasian Glossary? "The relationship among these languages and the existence of a Dene-Caucasian family is disputed or rejected by most linguists." After Petusek pointed out to me that I didn't cite it, I cited Campbell 1997: 286-88, but he only explains why he rejects the hypothesis, and doesn't really comment on what other linguists think, although he implies it lacks support. --Miskwito 21:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Such citations are always near impossible to find - since most scholars simply disregard ludicrous proposals, and no scholar speaks on behalf of others. The quote by Campbell should suffice for now since his word does count for something in "mainstream linguistics" and we can be sure that at least a good handful of linguists agree with him. Alternatively you could re-phrase the sentence to read "Is rejected by experts in native american historical linguistics, such as Lyle Campbell." (we might be able to find quotes from Mithun rejecting it also)·Maunus· · ƛ · 07:17, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
 * That would be good to have, indeed. By the way, after I deleted some of the discussions I had initiated, you noted that I should have archived it. Thanks for the advice - I didn't know it was possible! --Pet'usek [petr dot hrubis at gmail dot com] 12:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

What do you think of the present state of the article? Can we remove the NPOV and the cleanup tags now?

(Of course, the grammar section is still unfinished, and the Macro-Caucasian suffix table could need a bit of reformatting, but that doesn't necessitate a cleanup tag, does it?) David Marjanović 11:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Expansión Utoazteca
The article was mainly written from glottochronological dates after Kaufmann, that are in the article "Languages of the World" in Macropaedia (see section from Mesoamerican languages). But the main text are general data from spanish wikipedia, specially the history of nahua expansion. Davius —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.129.147.135 (talk) 17:58, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

Teponaztli: what does this mean?
Maunus, according to one source, the term teponaztli means "wooden drum" in Nahuatl. However, another source implied that the translation was not quite so straightforward. Do you have any insight into what this word might "really" mean?? Thanks loads, Madman 01:03, 27 April 2007 (UTC) P.S. Will Mayan languages be appearing on the front page any time soon?

New article: Reindeer hunting in Greenland
I have finally gone public with my new article:


 * Reindeer hunting in Greenland

-- Fyslee/talk 07:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Lukas19
Hi, you have had some dealings with this editor. I'd appreciate your opinion regarding a suspected sockpuppet if you have time. Suspected sock puppets/Lukas19. Cheers. Alun 14:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

thanks
for not wholesale reverting my newewr asddition, im tryin to take everything thats been said into account, but i felt that the point needed to  be made that the scientific theory doesnt even  look into oral history as a possible  place to investigate....  think that can go in some how? im no good at not showing emoption in words.Charred Feathers 03:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your consideration of what is being said by other editors and trying to reconcile it with your personal views, that is the right way to build the article together. I think that a discussion of native models for migration should go in another article - since the article on indigenous americans is not about migrational models as such. I think that after the sentence about oral history we could add a short sentence simply stating that "Modern scholarship largely disregards oral history as a source to knowledge about the earliest occupation of the Americas" or some such. I think the article on Models of migration to the New World is lacking a section explaining the models proposed by oral history of diffrent idnigenous groups and the attempts to reconcile this with the archaeological record. I think you should start by writing a section there.·Maunus· · ƛ · 03:56, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Interspersed comments on Richmond talk page
Before you endorse interspersing replies to anothers' comments, please take a look at this version of the talk page, and see what an absolute hash this other editor made of my comments. Some interspersing is OK, provided it doesn't obscure the text being replied to or make them unreadable. You tell me whether this is acceptable or not. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

comment removal
i found it offensive since it was annoying, untrue, and threateningT ALK•Q R C2006•¢ʘñ†®¡ß§ 17:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Problems w/Richmond article emblematic of underlying Wiki-flaws
I notice you've lately been trying to intervene in the edit conflicts over the Richmond, California article. While I suppose this may be admirable, I'd just like to point out some of the absurdity of this situation, and how it throws a spotlight on why this project (Wikipedia) is doomed.

This is a textbook example of how an editor&mdash;in this case, an admittedly "dislexic" writer, and a young one at that who's still in school&mdash;can basically hold an article hostage, either forcing their point of view upon it, or simply propagating errors (in this case, simply bad writing and a wild disregard for the rules of English). It happens again and again here.

This illustrates, if any further illustration were needed, why it's such an idiotic notion to create an "encyclopedia" that "anyone can edit" while at the same time entertaining some kind of fantastic notion that the resulting product will also be a reliable source of information. Much ink has been spilled over this elsewhere: my own suggestion, if you haven't done so already, would be to get yourself over to Wikipedia Review, one of the more thoughtful sites critical of Wikipedia, to see what folks are saying about this. (Even the article here on criticism of Wikipedia has some useful analysis.)

The other annoying thing, which follows from the problem just described, is that it apparently is thought to be more important around here to be nicey-nice to others, regardless of how incompetent or inexperienced they may be. The playing field is flattened, as it were, to the extent that pimple-faced junior-high-school students are accorded the same respect that experts in the field of the article are, which is another idiotic proposition. Any expert's edits can be torn to shreds by a kid with access to a computer in the library. This is great if what you're after is a nice touchy-feely atmosphere where everyone is made to feel welcomed and comfortable, but it actually sucks if what you're after is something resembling a credible "encyclopedia".

So I'm quite unapologetic about what you perceive to be my hostility towards editors such as this kid. Nothing personal, mind you: I don't know this person at all; but regarding the ability to make good edits, I'm sorry: people are decidedly not created (or evolved) equal here. Garbage is garbage, and needs to be thrown out.

Respectfully yours, +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:39, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I am sorry but if you are trying to convince me that acting like an intolreant jerk is justifiable because it is better for the encyclopedia then yo have come to the wrong person. Wikipedia is a social experiment first and foremost - people who are not interested in engaging in meaningful social interaction atthe same time as writing article content could go to any number of different places. If you don't act nice to others even though they make edits of which you don't approve you will only accomplish that they keep making such edits and a general hostile environment which will keep new editors from joining the project. The more inexpert or or incompetent editors are the more patience and guidance is required from other editors in showing them the correct way to function in the wikicommunity. If you don't even try to muster this patience and rather hold tightly on to yours - then you are as much a part of the problem as they are.·Maunus· · ƛ · 19:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, see, you've said it yourself: "Wikipedia is a social experiment first and foremost". Which is why it will ultimately fail as a credible source of information. You can't have it both ways. You don't believe that, of course, being something of a starry-eyed optimist. And believe me, I would never try to convince you otherwise; without giving too much away (check my username), I will say I'm old enough to have learned that lesson the hard way.
 * Toodle-oo. +ILike2BeAnonymous 05:23, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Benito Juarez
That is a much a better picture you put on Indigenous peoples of America than the iconic calendar aztec! Great job! Jake of A 11:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I did think it was a lot more adequate myself.·Maunus· · ƛ · 15:55, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Highly suspicious talk page entries
In less than half a day 4 new comments have been added to the Talk:Child_sacrifice_in_pre-Columbian_cultures page. Two from newly registered users, one from a user who has never contributed to an article, and one from an anonymous user. I think it was contrived. See this forum page:

http://primalforum.freepgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=161

81.174.214.173 16:13, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I had noticed the suspicious posts. At least that shows that forum thread shows that its not sock puppetry. New editors are allowed to present arguments just like everyone else though. Thanks for notifying me.·Maunus· · ƛ · 21:14, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * However, meatpuppetry, the solicitation of people outside Wikipedia to start accounts in order to participate in a debate, is very much against policy. See my comment on that talk page.  Fishal 15:48, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

External links to C Winter's sites
Is that some useful images, tables or other important information cannot be found anywhere else in the web? Then it would be better to have the links. We can quote "unreliable context" so the readers can use the useful information but not the unreliable contexts.Gaia2767spm 12:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't even believe that the reproductions he uses are reliable. I cannot accept inclusion of links to his pages as a reliable source.Here are the guidelines for the use of external links: WP:EL. Winters site fails on the important points 2 and 5. ·Maunus· · ƛ · 12:47, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, as everyone has bias, good external links have to be testify. It is hard to believe that his scans are unreliable and his decipheriments are "obviously erroneous". But for u r expertise in this area and u have see the materials it seems that u r points are justify.Gaia2767spm 13:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know if his scans are unreliable but they are hardly legible. And with his normal disregard for scientific method and ethics I don't think theres any reason to believe that the reproductions aren't doctored to fit his purposes. I reccomend that you read Ortiz de Montellano, Bernard; Haslip-Viera, Gabriel; Barbour, Warren (1997) "They Were NOT Here before Columbus: Afrocentric Hyperdiffusionism in the 1990s", Ethnohistory, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Spring, 1997), pp. 199-234. to gain an appreciation of the scientific foundations of Winters theories.·Maunus· · ƛ · 14:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * May be some of u r recommended sources be added to the related pages under "Category:Alternate_reality" or any other more related pages would be good to readers.Gaia2767spm 14:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I don't understand that. WHat do you mean?·Maunus· · ƛ · 14:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Many people know Winter's opinion by web traveling or in bookshop. They may not know the opposite opinions like the book u recommend. U may help them to think by adding details about this book to the related page in the wikipedia if u think it is important enough.Gaia2767spm 15:11, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ahh, now I understand. It is already there.·Maunus· · ƛ · 15:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Richmond, California
Richmond, California id like to make a request for comment in the 80 image section please. Cholga saYS THANKS!Cholga is a SUPERSTAR ¡Talk2Cholga! Sexy Contribs 01:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

80 image
What's so poor quality about it?Cholga is a SUPERSTAR ¡Talk2Cholga! Sexy Contribs 02:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's taken out of a moving car, it is tilted to the side, it has a lousy composition, it is out of focus, it is grainy and it is completely aesthetically uninteresting.·Maunus· · ƛ · 07:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Nahuatl orthog change proposal
Gidday Maunus. Not sure if you've seen, but there's a proposal for a change to Nahuatl orthog. in articles raised by someone at Talk:Classical Nahuatl grammar, a particular change which you'd previously argued against. Cheers, --cjllw ʘ  TALK 06:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Mesoam. lang. category rename proposal
Hi there Maunus. There is a category rename proposal in progress (here) for, would be interested in your comments/views, if you've time.--cjllw ʘ  TALK 08:18, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. BTW, a related question: do linguistics publs. consistently or formally distinguish between langs. that are extinct/dead because their last native speakers have expired, and those that are 'dead' in the sense that they are archaic forms that have since morphed into modern descendant langs/dialects (and cannot therefore be said to have had a 'last native speaker'). I kinda feel that there ought to be, but if there is a difference in terminology then the articles here on extinct languages, language death &c. don't really show this. Cheers, --cjllw ʘ  TALK 15:56, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know whether you can call it established terminology - but it doesn't make sense to call a language with living descendents for extinct. The term extinct is invariably used for languages that are evolutionary dead ends - also if they are ancient. I think for example etruscan could be called extinct because it died having no known modern relatives whereas latin would only be called dead. I don't think the terminology is well enough established however to comment on it in the article - but I will gladly read through the article to try to make the terminology at least internally consistent·Maunus· · ƛ · 20:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Contact or dominance?
Hey Manus, I thought we talked about this once before and you weren't opposed to the change. I won't address Xinca because I'm not up to date on it, but I can assure you there's no evidence of Maya dominance, archaeologically, over Lenca, in Honduras. Lots of contact, but no dominance. In fact there's ben for a while now, evidence of things like marriage alliances where, at Copan, the Lenca from central Honduras may have been treated as elite equals. Anyhow, I'm not going to fight you about it. Its an unjustifed opinion from Campbell, but if you want to leave it there, be my guest. Rsheptak 16:32, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it I remember we had the discussion earlier - I'll think of a better way to represnt it. Now I mostly reacted to the removal of a sourced statement and its replacement with a non sourced one.·Maunus· · ƛ · 16:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Austronesian languages
Hi Maunus, little while no see.

I know the Austronesian languages aren't in your part of the world, but my question is really a Wikipedia question rather than a linguistic one.

I got sick of knuckleheads yammering over a list of languages that someone had stuck in the article some day or other, so I created List of Austronesian languages and shipped the section out in one fell swoop, as per Embedded list.... Now I wanna get rid of the "Cross-linguistic Comparison Chart" section, but I don't know what to do with it. Any ideas? If not, then do you know a linguist who is notably familiar with WP:MOS? Thanks! Ling.Nut 17:04, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete it with no further comment? As is it is just a largew table that doesn't explain its own purpose in the article. You might try to rewrite it into prose - maybe keeping just a row or two just to give the readers a feeling of the level of diversity within the family. Maybe look at how we integrated that kind of linguistic information into the Mayan languages article, or how superfluous linguistic information was taken from the main article and put into the Proto-Mayan article.·Maunus· · ƛ · 17:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Ha! Don't tempt me! ;-) Actually, I hate deleting things outright, but occasionally it might be the right path. I'll poke around some more. Thanks again! Ling.Nut 18:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

enjoy your break :-)
Relax. Ling.Nut 20:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Ditto. Your hopefully temporary absence / reduced presence will be sorely missed, enjoy your time and whatever else. Take care, and all the best! Saludos, --cjllw ʘ  TALK 09:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks guys, I will probably be here sporadically but I'll be trying to focus on other things. ·Maunus· · ƛ · 10:07, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Same here, Maunus - I hope we both coincide back here some time soon! --A R King 08:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Irish Revival
Thanks for your message. First, I haven't written any of the sentences in the article, merely restored them - but of course I think they are correct, otherwise I wouldn't have done so. I see that you are Danish and obviously an expert in linguistic matters, but I hope it's not unpolite to assume that you haven't specialied in Irish and the socio-linguistic situation of Ireland? The clearly stated aim of the Irish revival was to make Irish the primary language of Ireland, just as Hebrew managed to be revived to become the primary language of Israel. This was the aim of both the Gaelic League and the founders of the state when Ireland became independent. As I'm sure you know, this has not succeeded no matter how one looks at the situation. In case the revival would have resulted in parts of Ireland becoming Irish speaking and other parts not, the result could have been regarded as a failure (Ireland still not Irish-speaking) or a success (Irish restored as the main language in parts of the island). Unfortunately (my personal opinion), nothing of the kind ever happened. Not only did the revival fail to bring back Irish as the community language to any community - Irish has even continued to loose ground to English so that some areas that were Irish speaking when the revival movement started are English speaking today. The Irish revival never succeeded in reviving Irish as the main language even in one small town anywhere in Ireland, yet alone bring back Irish as the language of Ireland. For this reason, it seems entirely uncontroversial to say that the revival failed - this is certainly what native Irish speakers themselves are saying. JdeJ 09:17, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

dental fricative edits
Are we seriously revert warring over copyediting issues? My reversion had nothing to do with the paragraph about languages that lack the sound, it was of this edit which needlessly reverted noncontroversial, good faith edits without providing justification. I'll break it down. I'll let you put the proper changes in, but next time consider that it is improper to revert someone just because they haven't explained their edits sufficiently and use the diff button to see what the changes actually are. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The voiceless dental sibilant fricative
 * It should be the ''The voiceless dental non-sibilant fricative. Some anon vandalism that wasn't caught changed this
 * is a type of consonantal sound found in some languages
 * look at all the other consonant pages, the format is is a type of consonantal sound used in some spoken languages.
 * including the English language in a word such as "thick" as it is pronouced by speakers of Standard British and American dialects.
 * once again, the other pages don't mention any examples in the first sentence. Mentioning English can be a pov issue.  The sentence had enough wording and positional problems and there's nothing wrong with having the example in the last sentence of the paragraph.  I'm assuming that you added this sentence in the first place because you didn't notice the example at the end of the paragraph which would explain why this edit came after this one.
 * You reverted me stating only that you didn't agree that the list of -less languages should be removed - I thought you reverted only because of this. I reinserted the paragraph in question AND the copyedit changes that I had made since you hadn't objected to them. My reasons for the copeydits were firstly to introduce a language that has the sound before the languages that doesn't, in this case english. Secondly to make due notice that not all dialects of english have the sound but prominently the standard british and american dialects. Thirdly to remove the redundant and semi-nonsensical qualifier from "spoken languages". I am not going to return to the article nor waste more time arguing over it, and you can do whatever you want with it.·Maunus· · ƛ · 20:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I understand that you thought that, but you wouldn't have thought it if you had paid attention to the edits being made. Stuff like that can help you at any part of Wikipedia.  I'm sorry that I didn't clarify my actions in my edit summary, I just thought it would be self evident what I was doing. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 03:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Dene-Caucasian stuff
Hi Maunus. I know you're of generally the same bent as me about the Dene-Caucasian stuff, so I was wondering if you had anything to add to my comments here? --Miskwito 20:05, 3 September 2007 (UTC)