User:Merbabu/Archive21

Dutch Speakers in Indonesia
Hi... I don't suppose you would have any sources on numbers of Dutch speakers in Indonesia would you? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 01:04, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I would appreciate your comments off or on wiki re the points that I made there (as in above) re the Dutch Indonesian interplay in language - cheers - SatuSuro 03:26, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to have distract you so often - I am beginning to feel that there is a fire brigade element to our Indonesia project involvement these days - trust you werent in view today of the overnight disaster just down from work :| SatuSuro 11:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh forgot check out davids magnificent response on my talk - I owe him for that - so well put! SatuSuro 11:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Left a message for ya...
Here  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Categories
Are never rated - i did the wrong class it should have been NA and closes the possibility of what you just did - we rate cats and were down the bottom of the sydney harbour before you can say 'dutch umpire'?! - cheers SatuSuro 02:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * hmm - what did i just do? I would not want to see cats rated. Anyway, let me know what you think should be done - show me an example. cheers. --Merbabu (talk) 02:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category_talk%3ACities%2C_towns_and_villages_in_Indonesia&diff=209829432&oldid=209682745 SatuSuro 03:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you think about the re-arrangement done overnight? Can you please comment on the project noticeboard? cheers. --Merbabu (talk) 03:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

heheh if you want to see my live at the changers talk page - it is a good one of sorts but once again if you read my comments - he is doing something ok - but... SatuSuro 04:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

please dont revert his maps in the cat area - at least it will give the geographically challenged vandals and visigoths some idea where they have landed for their poo edits  SatuSuro 05:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

hey check out the template at the bottom - hey if we get the place thing right we can have things like that too! SatuSuro 05:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * God forbid. --Merbabu (talk) 05:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

templates of all the kecamatans and kulons and lors for east java - yeehah! might break the wikipedia record for items in a template :( SatuSuro 06:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * By jove I think I am just getting the idea - Popular culture in the kampungs of southern Surabaya by population size between 1895 and 1932 SatuSuro 10:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If the bald one goes through with plan - there will be thousands of unsupportable stubs - will gmail/talk re this issue off wiki - cheers SatuSuro 11:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I got to get off - check our aceh war - we have a nederlander interloping with an odd edit SatuSuro 11:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hicks edits
Looks like we're editing the page at the same time. I haven't checked yet, but I may have unintentionally undone your footnote tidy-ups. If so, sorry for that :( --Brendan [ contribs ] 05:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

My ignorance
Pete wrote on "without valid charge", "Unless we can show a competent court dismissing the charges, then we cannot say that they were invalid. Legal opinion, untested in court, is not fact, and we should not mislead our readers. --Pete (talk) 02:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

and

That's POV. Even if supported by legal opinion, it's still POV. Only if the charges are or were dismissed by a competent court can we call them invalid. You've got the US Supreme Court saying the charges were not valid? No? Well, don't presume to force your opinion on our readers, please. --Pete (talk) 02:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I edit from a position of great ignorance and I too often forget this. But not usually absolutely smack dead wrong. SmithBlue (talk) 06:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * hmmm - I'm not too sure what you mean here. That Pete is "ignorant"? Why should I know Pete's opinion?
 * However, irrespective of Pete's opinion, I think it is problematic to say "without valid charge". It's judgmental, and hence POV. It is better to say "Court X said it was invalid" (for example, and if that is indeed factual, and judged notable for the lead). thanks. --Merbabu (talk) 06:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm pointing out that I've had some of this discusion before, that we are perhaps heading in circles. And I find it humorous when us humans find that reality is exactly what we think it it not. And yes I mean that Pete is ignorant and that I'm ignorant and that you are ignorant and that editing when we are not masters of a topic goes easier when we ask questions of each other. (That said I do recognise the potential for conflict to spurr on editors - see David Hicks today.). We have something like "Court X said it was invalid" twice in the body of the article. valid is one way of conveying that in the lead. SmithBlue (talk) 06:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I too would like to see WP far more free of very disruptive editors and am open to exploring WP processes to further that dream. I shared with some law students and still have a rash (humour) suspect that "valid charge" or "valid authority" are NPOV legal terms. Which may be applicable in the lead. I think we could do with a legal opinion here. Finding a socially progressive lawyer now would not suit our purposes - any ideas where we could find a middle of the road type legal opinion? (And I'll bet they'd find other legal holes in the article while they're there too.) SmithBlue (talk) 07:24, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Merbabu, I would, I believe, actually enjoy reading, in a non-divisive, reasonable and civil forum, what you see as POV about "without valid charge". If you want my view, so you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll give it or, if you'd rather, just put you view and then we can discuss from there. (I believe I control my user page - if you'd rather have this conversation on my user page I will happily keep only civil and useful comments from other editors on my page.) SmithBlue (talk) 07:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Lists
See my comments at davids talk - and contact me off wiki if you want about it rather than on :| SatuSuro 10:58, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Clearly you are not an indonesian by culture or birth :) - btw that photo is brilliant! me old mate merapi blowing a stack SatuSuro 12:42, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Historical map of Dutch presence in Indonesia
Hi there. Would you happen to have any material which might verify this map? It appears to have been taken from with shading added. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 12:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Indonesia-United States relations
Hi, this article suffers serious issues and seems to be copied and pasted word-for-word from an US State Department site. Just letting you know.--PCPP (talk) 14:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Groan - well if so, it can be added to the "to-do" list. cheers. --Merbabu (talk) 14:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Map
From where I got the information, his book was listedas a reference. (Red4tribe (talk) 14:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC))


 * I'd guess whoever made the map, read the book, and put together a map on it. (Red4tribe (talk) 14:21, 4 May 2008 (UTC))

Dutch-Indonesian Round Table Conference
Hi. E-mail on the way to you. And could you take a look at Dutch-Indonesian Round Table Conference - I've expanded it a bit. Do you think that it and Renville Agreement need an 'Aftermath' section, or is it covered adequately by Indonesian National Revolution. By the way, I uploaded a picture - - because of the lack of images on the page, but after playing around with it in various position, I'm not sure it can be used. Any thoughts? Regards Davidelit (talk) 15:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Green School, Kul-Kul Campus deletion
The page was deleted because it was blatant spam, as per the criteria for speedy deletion. I have no problem with you recreating the article, provided you write it from a neutral point of view. I have restored the page to your userspace, it can be found at User:Merbabu/Green School, Kul-Kul Campus. Please remember that keeping spammy material hanging around in the userspace is often frowned upon, and that you can request that it is deleted by adding to the top of it. J Milburn (talk) 17:30, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Another masterpiece at the Dutch Empire article
Hello again. How do you feel about this map? The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 19:48, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Australia edit warring?
WTF? I'm not edit warring. I just changed the date and I've explained my edits on the talk page. --AussieLegend (talk) 23:05, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No problems then. It was just a polite suggestion in advance that was sent equally to two editors. cheers. --Merbabu (talk) 23:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I tried discussing it as you suggested and now he has threatened on my talk page to change the date anyway. Apparently talking to some people has no effect. --AussieLegend (talk) 10:43, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Melutus?
memeriksa contributions saya - listus editus - it has a certain latin feel to it :( SatuSuro 09:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I used to try and maintain (ie, add to) some of the Indonesian lists. Now I just can't see any point to them. Delete the lot of them, starting with List of Indonesia-related topics.--Merbabu (talk)

Nah - wont do that - will probably have some ideas after this crazy venture into the nether regions - probably reach orang gila stage within the hour considering what i have found so far :P - if you get weird messages later - just make allowance please :@ SatuSuro 10:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm with you on List of Indonesia-related topics, which I will be proposing for deletion as soon as I can find the time to work out how to do it. What a spectacular waste of server space. As if anybody would work methodically down the list looking for something. Isn't that what the Indonesia article or that box on the left of the screen with 'search' written above it are for? Davidelit (talk) 10:23, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It was at a time in the past a way of checking what was either new or checked in the project before it was a WP project - if you want we can take it to afd - I just need to download it as I am about to do some project wide things soon - so one step at a time 2 votes for deletion - start thinking good reasons and properly thought out supports for it - SatuSuro 10:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually i think it has some mysterious connection with some aspect of keeping tabs of the project at its state in september 2006 - the editor who created the file is still active - hold your horses folks - some satu suro burrowing before you even dream of it at afd - SatuSuro 10:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Nah think of something else to do - no way it goes while i am an editor here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:RecentChangesLinked/List_of_Indonesia-related_topics - it is the way we keep up with recent changes within the project - good idea but no cigar and no change - trust we have something else we can have games with SatuSuro 10:56, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah - I wasn't serious but actually getting rid of it, and certainly I meant to slight on the editor who has been maintaining it. Indeed, I used to maintain it. I just checked page traffic stats and it averages close to 200 visits per day. Which is about 100 times more visits than I thought. :-)  -Merbabu (talk) 11:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I hereby demand that my visit to it earlier today be expunged from the record forthwith and that it never be used to support the statistics. Davidelit (talk) 11:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

If any of us in the shadow of the efforts of both indon and imoeng dismantled that we would be throwing the sword down on the project and throwing ourself on the fire - bali funeral style - nah it has many more uses than we possibly understand - if we or othes who come later - such a device and a list is nothing short of brilliant SatuSuro 11:07, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it could be split into separate lists - there are already no doubt duplicated lists. ie, aren't lists of people and cities both on the main list and their own lists? Further, how should it be kept up to date? --Merbabu (talk) 11:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer to explain my perspective off wiki - no big deal - but - if you are prepared to continue the conversation outside - hey grab a merokok dan tehbotol and checkout the night air ; SatuSuro 11:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Surrounded
aarrgghhhhhhhhh SatuSuro 03:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Heartland
Well the fall of 1987 in Graceland would be self-explanatory but I see your point. I can say 99% it was late November but I don't have a cite for that so I'll leave it as you said. Thanks! MDuchek (talk) 03:42, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Australian Water Dragon
Please explain why you consider my photos to be 'redundant' &mdash; and exactly why you consider photos of Australian Water Dragons to be redundant on an Australian Water Dragon page. Figaro (talk) 09:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for replying. All the best. Figaro (talk) 09:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Obama RfC
I deleted the Request for Comment about Obama and John Howard, after reading your comment. We'll give it some time, and see if the edit war subsides. Thanks for the advice, regards,  Lester  03:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Good-o! Thanks, Lester. So it looks like it will be Timeshift or Eyedubya taking the next angry shot, just to keep the dream alive. --Pete (talk) 04:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Lestser, hmmm - i'm not suggesting we bury the issue. I'm suggesting "time out" only. Things were "poisonous" and nothing was being worked out. WP:CIVIL is not there to make sure our feelings aren't hurt, it's there to foster an evironment of colaboration vital for consensus. Note, everyone was talking about consensus (in their own way), but no one actually did much to get there - at least that is my view.
 * After a week, people might see it differently. Hopefully they can at least think about ways to work together better, and dropping our attitudes. (Disclaimer: I’ve had my moments in my wiki history – pretending to be otherwise would be hypocritical, but I’m trying my best to foster better methods of expressing disagreement and coming up with workable solutions. That’s consensus that is so vital). --Merbabu (talk) 04:36, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As a matter of fact, you're setting a good example. I'm far less concerned with whether a piece of trivial information appears or not than whether good faith editing and genuine collaboration can resume. We might not all have the same views, but generally with a bit of common sense, we can meet somewhere in the middle. --Pete (talk) 04:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Merbabu. Just for courtesy, I inform you that I'm going to restart the RfC. We have the article blocked so the edit waring can stop to allow for civil and productive conversation. I provided some extra links and commentary that occurred at the time of the Howard attack on Obama, which state how the incident affected Howard's standing. Since the article block, it's just me and Skyring(Pete) talking to each other, in a conversation that is not resolving the issues, or coming any closer to resolving anything. That's why we need to let the outside hordes into the article to resolve the Obama issue. Regards,  Lester  04:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply
Well, very few of them actually have references to external reliable sources, so there is a danger that they are simply a repository of somebody's POV/OR. In any case, the notability criteria includes either being a single, charting significantly, r having reliable sources discuss them; neither is the case here. indopug (talk) 11:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Red4tribe
Hi there Merbabu. I respect your patience towards Red4tribe, I really do. If he had limited himself to use of his own account to make these edits, I might have been inclined to agree, but the fact that he uses sockpuppets and then lies about it or feigns innocence is just a step too far for me. It is a demonstration of bad faith. I really think that this guy is not going to change his behaviours and, having now been blocked three times and still resorts to sockpuppetry, he deserves everything that is coming to him, which is a permanent block. Editors may disagree with each other but we must do this within the confines of the rules here. The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 03:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed sockpuppets can't be tolerated. I will let him know that if he continues with sockpuppets, I will withdraw any support for him. (and the quality of his editing is another issue altogether about which he needs to take more care). --Merbabu (talk) 03:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * A bit like a burglar that accidentally drops his business card, driver's licence, photograph, and directions to his hideout at the scene of the crime. I just hope that he is now permanently blocked from WP.  I have reported the latest incidents.  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Looks like he was also using User:Wiremaxman -  The Red Hat of Pat Ferrick t 02:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

U2 article collaboration
I see that you're pretty active with editing U2 articles (especially since you did help U2 become featured), and I'm pretty active myself. Unfortunately, it seems that I'm pretty much the only one editing the article that I chose to work on, mainly because I tend to stick to the smaller subjects within the U2 category. Since the U2 WikiProject hasn't been really active lately, I figured I would go to editors directly for help. U2 3D is just one to two paragraphs away from getting nominated for GA-status, and my next project is to work on PopMart Tour, then Miss Sarajevo. I would love to see both articles get GA-status, and eventually become featured. So if you'd like to help me out on these articles, or any U2 articles for that matter, just let me know. I'm willing to work on any U2 article as long as I can get some help and work with someone else at the same time. Thanks. – Dream out loud (talk) 04:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Afd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Biggest_Indonesian_Philanthropists SatuSuro 06:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ExxonMobil_in_Indonesia SatuSuro 11:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Java SatuSuro 13:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

FYI
they have a foothold, keep it on your watchlist - who knows what they will call a war next - after what seemed a year trying to get rid of indonesian civil war - who knows what they will spring on us next - ever vigilant i say SatuSuro 02:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Obama
Hi Merbabu. I don't see your name on the list of names for/against the Obama material. I respect your view that it should be omitted, though I don't understand how the incident can be regarded as non-memorable. I agree with you that there are many recent points in Australian political articles that are too trivial to be retained in the articles. Things like how many debates Howard agreed to in the run-up to the election, and whether or not he thought the TV "worm" should be used or not, probably won't be of lasting significance. But to me, the Obama attack is very different to those. Attacking the man who would be the first African American presidential candidate shows an insight into Howard's personality, on many levels. Whether or not Obama becomes president, the incident is notable. If his presidential bid fails, the Howard attack will be one of many examples of what Obama was up against. If you read the commentaries and analysis, some commentators question why Howard singled out Obama in particular for such a vicious verbal hiding. Because it happened the day after Obama announced his candidacy, some commentators described it as Obama's baptism of fire. It will always be how Obama's campaign began. It showed that Howard put all his eggs in the Bush basket (if Howard & Obama had both won their elections, it would have caused major tensions), and further demonstrates the Howard-Bush bond. The issue is not just Obama, as Howard also denigrated the US Democrats. The incident received massive global media coverage, including near the top of all US network news bulletins, NYTimes, Washington Post, with editorials at the time, and occasional mentions to this day. In contrast, other trivia like the earwax incident never made it to any of those US flagship news outlets (though it was shown on Tonight Shows and Rove Live etc for humor). Chances are I probably won't convince you to review your stance (it's always pretty difficult to change anyone's opinion in these situations), but I ask you to take a look at other subject matter in the 2nd half of the Howard article, and ask yourself if the Obama attack has more proven notability than the other subject matter there. Thanks, best wishes,  Lester  06:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for Mediation: John Howard
Hello. A request for mediation has been lodged for the John Howard article, concerning whether information about an incident between John Howard and Barack Obama should be included or deleted from the article. The link for the RfM is Requests_for_mediation/John_Howard. The issue is still being discussed on the article talk page. Please go to the RfM page and list whether you agree or disagree to be involved in mediation of this issue. Thank you,  Lester  01:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Merbabu. What's the situation with the dispute resolution process at the John Howard article? I'm getting the impression that some people are not in favour of a mediated discussion, but I can't understand why. I thought it would be beneficial to have a mediator assist to keep the discussion civil and focused. Otherwise the talk page discussion would have gone on and on without coming to a resolution. I also thought that mediation would help everyone resolve it amongst each other, which seemed to me a better alternative than having admins move in with punitive measures. It's worth trying to get everyone to resolve it by mediation first. No? Are there reasons for not mediating? Regards,  Lester  21:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the "situation" is very clear. Please don't pretend otherwise. Give it a break please. --Merbabu (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

PETA etc
I actually have a multi-voume encyclopedia on the Indonesian Military! Gimme the glory! Davidelit (talk) 13:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Mongo pak - terus - terus - ke tempat di atas - sekarang! SatuSuro 13:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * (edit conflict) Really? Well, your work needs to go here. Use it to create the mother of all lists - all one page, of course, and extra points for at least one red linked name on every line. ;-) That's glory. ;-)  --Merbabu (talk) 13:13, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * As requested. I'll try and do more at the weekend. Davidelit (talk) 14:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)