User:Merbabu/Archive3

Garuda Indonesia collaboration
Hey! It seems the GI collaboration was more of a solo-project, not many other people seemed to get involved. I've been away on business (and pleasure!) for about 5 days too, so haven't had much opportunity to devote many hours myself. It's been expanded somewhat, but there's more that could be done. Messaging all the editors individually and extending for a week would be great!

muslimphotos.net
It is .net, not .com.

I'll put it in later.

Regards Muslimphotos 18:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Islamic architecture
Hi - I saw you removed a link I added, as you thought was spam. Please review the link again. The site is filled with high resolution pictures of islamic architecture, from Morocco, Spain (Andalus - like Alhambra and the Mezquita), Syria, Istanbul and Palestine. There are also some examples from Pakistan and Norway as well. I believe such pictures are very interesting for people who are looking for islamic architecture. Muslimphotos 15:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Mount Tambora
Thanks. Now, for FA, but I need to learn how to pass an FA reviewer, named Tony. ;-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 01:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Western New Guinea
I'm about to head off home, but I've added it to my watchlist, and I'll see if I can help resolve things. Rebecca 04:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I've watchlisted it, too, Merbabu. Thanks for letting me know. I've been a bit busy IRL and haven't been around a lot this week, but please feel free to post on my talk page and I'll help out as much as possible. Have a good weekend, mate. Cheers, Sarah Ewart (Talk) 09:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Newsletter
Hi how are you? Indon got it again!!!??? WHOA!! Btw thanks for the input, and just FYI, the bot will deliver the newsletter, so you don't need to give a list of suggested names :D. I will get back to you. Cheers -- Imo  eng  06:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Superscript text

Architecture
Apologies - copyright free images that I have are still in unsorted boxes. I find the articles like these annoying unless there are subsidiary articles - as to 'precis' sometimes complex issues of more local conditions in the one art is what encyclopedia articles indeed are all about - but for me they go against the grain of the local contexts and exceptions to the generalisations - and I find the surakarta article similar -my understanding of the history of local hardliners goes well back before ABB was even born - there are good historical explanations about all this... SatuSuro 06:58, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Indonesia
Hi Merabu, I've been pretty busy outside of wikipedia, hence the late reply. I consider myself to be on a wikibreak, but I do pop back every now and then to make some minor changes. Re: Move of Indonesian Civil War => to Overthrow of Sukarno I don't have any strong opinions, happy to leave the decision to those with more expertise in this area. Re: Indonesia, I'm happy that you guys have made some great progress on improving this this article. I haven't read the whole thing in detail, but one thing that sticks out was the statistics you provided, comparing the length of the different subsections to other FA countries. I was surprised that Australia had substantially more content under its Culture section compared to Indonesia. I would have thought that Australian culture could be summed up in a few words (football, meat pies, beer and beach :-) ) but Indonesia has such a complex, historical and diverse culture that I think this section needs substantial work before the article is worthy of FA. Lastly, great work on getting the architecture article going! (Caniago 08:19, 5 November 2006 (UTC))

WikiProject Indonesia Newsletter
If you prefer to get a link to the next newsletters instead of receiving them, please add your name to this list.

Islam In Indonesia
By any chance did you see the ABC sunday night compass program? SatuSuro 02:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes my wife and I watched it (australian catholics having lived in complex islamic communities -both at different times in country near yogya) - quite carefully - bit concerned by the soundtrack and the relative naivete that doogue reflects - and just virginia hooker as advisor - I would put my money on about four or five others as to the subject - but then thats my bias I suppose - historical particularism - I found it frustrating at times SatuSuro 02:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Permisi - I have to get off in a few minutes - real life calls. My whole understanding from my fieldwork and my wifes fieldwork - and the general literature that I know of - is that the closer you look the more complex it beccomes - and that the generalisations that are needed for encyclopedia articles are not conducive to the issues that arise.  I gotta go - speak to you later - have a good day! SatuSuro 02:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Wah I go off for an hour or so and I find a note like that. In the context of my guru's in Yogya {boy that can be ambiguous), I'm not worthy of such attention, my oldest son got better boso jowo than I ever did, and my wife and I have more scottish blood than anything else - hey - I am meant to be doing pastoral leases of western australia all 700 or so of them... I'll see what I can find... SatuSuro 04:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

English Irish
No problem. The warning was to him, not to you. I commend you for trying to reason with the guy. Beyond a certain point it is unlikely to change his mind. If I was to argue with him, I'd use his utter misunderstanding of our expectations and processes here. Best wishes --Guinnog 12:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Lasut
Just found this, what do you think? Also looks like weve lost Imoeng - not good that its happened - but he did an amazing amount in a short time! SatuSuro 13:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Abt some articles
I have been working in the development of South Asia related topics here in wikipedia for a while now and have added a number of articles and stubs. I am a sysop in Nepal Bhasa version which I have been handling all by myself and have also contributed to development esp in navigation and adding articles in all the Devnagari wikipedia present. I was awarded RAOK in Marathi wikipedia because of my contribution there despite my lack of language skills in Marathi. However, in the article Bhutanese refugee and Immigration in Bhutan, a person with inclination towards Bhutanese Government side has been modifying the article and considers my edits which are based on global organizations as Nepalese version just because I am from Nepal. I will be taking a wikibreak for about 3 weeks. In the meantime, I request you to please monitor these two articles and see that neutral point of view is maintained. South Asia is very notorious for ethnic violences. Biased articles if viewed by the newly armed and equiped ethnic groups of Maoists (such as Kirant Mukti Morcha, Tamuwan Mukti Morcha, Madhesh Mukti Morcha etc) or newly formed ethnic guerella groups, will create a catastrophe in this region as they are kins of the Lhotshampas. So, please make sure that uncited and biased POV are scrutinized till I am back.--Eukesh 16:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your help (or lack of it).--Eukesh 20:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Batak (Indonesia)
Thanx For The Info...~ ^_^...~ --AzaPutra 10:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
AGF means...... and i qoute, 'To assume good faith is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia. In allowing anyone to edit, we must assume that most people who work on the project are trying to help it, not hurt it.'

I know you know this.

As for trivia, there are alot of hardcore fans out there who are interested in knowing certain information about thier idols. So such paltry knowledge of Bono may not intrigue you, but people are never the less interested in such details. You have slammed the meaning of trivia by saying 'tivia=unimportant', i suggest this link: Trivia. I 've already read the merciless editing warnings by Wiki.

People rely on wikipedia for every facet of a certain article, I see how we're all running around like editors, But this is not a newspaper......it's a source of public infomation. Peolpe would like to know every little fad about thier distinguished celebrity and why not make wiki the place to get it. Childishknack 14:17, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Portal and the Indonesia project
Hi Merbabu, how are you? Perhaps, you knew it already that Imoeng is retired from WP. It's sad as we missed a person like him, but it's his decision. Anyway, loosing him is quite a big blow to the WP:INA project and WP:PID portal. It's hard to mantain, I think. So how about it? I need your opinions first. I can take care of WP:PID's news (sad also that the our news source stop updating until this October, I dunno why) and DYK, but lately I'm very busy with improving an article for FA. I'd really like to see FA articles in the project. I hate to see Indian project that have so many FA's :D. I think we should keep the project and the portal alive, but it is better if both of them are mantained by all of the members, not only by a single or two persons. I think it's time to distribute the task and to ask other members to actively mantain the project. Cheers. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 16:45, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Boleh. ;-) I think the project and the portal would be in constant move for the moment. In the meantime, I'll try to improve small non-contentious Indo articles for GA. I've told you I've a plan of FA for Tambora, but I need supports from other Indo project members, as I see in Indian FAC. BTW, your banner in this talk page is very annoying, but it's fun. :-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 22:50, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

use of chinese word
If it were your experience i think it is true. I have never heard of it,but not very sure because people can easily breach such a "minor" law in Indonesia haha --Nielswik(talk) 08:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Mount Tambora is on FAC
I've submitted!! Please chime in there. Oh, I think I can't be online through the weekend, because of lowsy internet connection at home, so I will not be able to reply any comments there til Monday. Cheers. ;-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 16:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)


 * White ants are in. B--t about comprehensiveness as I am sure there was only the one major eruption. Havent had a proper look yet. SatuSuro 04:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Belinda Emmett
Hi. I've put something on Belinda's talk page. The media references that say that Belinda's breast cancer was successfully treated are just plain wrong. It spread to her bones, and now she is dead because of it. The cancer that she died from was the original breast cancer, which had spread. She did not have a cancer that arose from bone. - Richardcavell 02:01, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Komodo dragon
You put an unreferenced tag on the Komodo dragon page. I believe it is quite referenced, as it follows a citation format similar to Aquarium, which is a featured article.  bibliomaniac 1  5   Review?  04:29, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Javan Rhinoceros
The information I collected for that article I did list in References. They are internet sources. Is their another step I should have taken putting my sources on the page? The resources I used are below.

http://www.animalcorner.co.uk/wildlife/rhinos/rhino_javan.html

http://www.rhinos-irf.org/rhinoinformation/javanrhino/index.htm

Could you please get back to me on this matter and im sorry if im not doing it correctly. Thanks. VT?! 16:32, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

WHo/What/How
Whatever or whoever the huge posts of rant here, Indonesia or the '65 thinggo - strongly suggest you speak to an admin to watch the folks - and also the possibility about making sub pages - or otherwise we will be swamped by the. I dont have the time to read it all to make head or tail of it! SatuSuro 01:00, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What I am saying is having had a closer look - dont take it on all yourself - make sure there is someone else in on it - admin (like rebecca or sarah) or otherwise! SatuSuro 01:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Inshallah most of the polemicists jump in blast and evaporate. Kalau mau mengannggu (sorry bad spelling) very important to let an admin know about the behaviour - rather than the content.  Because of the sheer volume of the material - it can be overwhelming.! i gotta get off into real world shortly.  I wont be around till tonight (Perth time).  Probably best to leave it - dont respond for a day - and wait and see (sabar in the long drawn out way a yogya becak driver would say it).  If it is intruding on an article - its always retrievable later! SatuSuro 01:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * oh hell, you want to know my line on 65 and read the material. Hmph - give me a few days - a response might have to be off wiki though - for a few reasons SatuSuro 01:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Back early for a while. All the following my opinion - can back up but will take time Reason for this - blending the two is good - but might be better separated. (ii) I dont think I can be much help - books, sources, and ideas which I would use due to my background and angle on it are not in the article- intriguing as the argument has been made by editors for wikipedia - I would re-write it very differently, (hey I lived in Yogya 30 years later) but have no inclination to do so, sorry.
 * (1) Stuff about 65 etc should be diverted to article about it and any assertions in the Indonesia art should be short shafted or limited where possible to bare minumum, otherwise yet another one comes along and the whole of the Indonesia article gets disrupted by stuff like this it all goes ga ga (goro goro?)
 * (2) 65 article should be broken up again into (a) official suharto new order version of events (b) all the rest
 * (3) Post facto 'new discoveries' stuff about the US and UK involvement is 'useful' - but 'at the time' stuff is needed in the art as well.
 * (4) my argument with daniel about the Civil War label and stuff comes from my informants - the locals would not have reccognised his label.
 * (5) after reading your interacttions with others on this -(i) I am at a loss as to where the combatant will find 'supporting evidence' for some assertions.

The article is for (i) wikipedia? if so - needs to balance views - what an outside academic or politician might find in archives is one thing - more important to find out what the locals were experienceing. (ii) the huge folklore and literary legacy are not in there in the article -  Umar Kayam's Bawuk (Harry Aveling translation) and Y of Living D from Koch evoke things no archive note even with bloodstains can necessarrily evoke. The chilling Tapol Bulletin from the UK as well  SatuSuro 05:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Your request for page protection
I have semi-protected Transmigration program, as you requested. However, I would like to make a couple of recommendations for future reference: I hope this was helpful. Thank you for your good work. Regards.-- Hús  ö  nd  05:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Do not add the template to articles, as adding the template will not protect the page by itself. If an administrator decides to protect the page, he/she will add the template.
 * Fight the vandals before requesting page protection (it's a last resort). Whenever you revert a vandal's edit, you shall leave a test template on their talk page. Start with, and if the vandal persists then keep dropping the test warnings until they have the whole set. If they vandalize after , then you can report them to WP:AIV in order to have them blocked. If many different vandals are targetting an article in a short period of time, then the best thing to do is yes to request protection.

Hey
Hey please check out my conversation with Indon on his talk page, under "FAC" heading. Muahahahaha, I'm off. Cheers -- Imo  eng  12:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Architecture etc
Hey I used to live very close to Candi Sambisari, I think working on details in the candi article is more to my liking than the big picture art SatuSuro 14:50, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd forgotten -re photos - John wolf of cornell had used some in the cd of his language course some years back - I'll have to dig them up too - but mainly people in yk - less the article. Have you seen my Malioboro article and piccie? SatuSuro 15:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Candi article
I don't plan to make any further changes, I just put it up as a stub. I'll leave it to the Javanists - you, SatuSuro, and Indon (?) - to rewrite and complete as necessary ;-) Back to fixing up the rumah gadang article for me... (Caniago 15:22, 13 November 2006 (UTC))
 * What do you suggest? Maybe expand the opening section, and then slowly create the "child articles"?. Yes, plus adding more pictures (I'm sure SatuSuro will oblige ;-), sanitizing the text for each section, filling in details for Sumatra/Kalimantan, creating some maps to show Candi locations... (Caniago 15:51, 13 November 2006 (UTC))


 * Hehehe, I've been tagged (correctly) as Javanist. :-) Michael, I think we can make a great list article for WP:FL. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 15:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Geographically challenged tourist brochures and editors
Prpls produce some of the crppiest maps of java with so many mistajkes - ten years ago I went to great length to explain to them - their checkers couldnt give a dam - they more or less replied with slartibartfast (douglas adams again) nonchalance (who liked his norwegian fjords) that they were pleased with the rivers - after I had pointed out that their roads in the bantul area were impossible! So wrong locations/directions/ and fifty year old railway lines long gone all recurr like anything in almost all maps and guide books - I've long given up taking any of the publishers on about such stuff. As for candi - if they dont show up on a google or clusty check - they're out! IMHO regardless. As for merbabus suggestion - I would be very wary avout child articles for some individual candi - I think it'd be much wiser doing clusters of some as there simply isnt enough to create more than a stub anyway. Oh well, two bobs worth for today SatuSuro 09:55, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Architecture/Candi/Borodudur
Ok before you feel comfortable - there is the problem of one of the main borobudur-ologists claiming that Boro was originally hindu - where does it go? the issue that is SatuSuro 10:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Tambora on FAC
Hi, it's all right. I have been helped by some copyeditors, including FAC reviewers. The review said that the article is not comprehensive enough, because it only explains about the eruption (but that's what a volcanoe article does, right?). Anyway, I've added Eruptive History (suggested by Caniago), created Geographical Settings section for some geography, expanded the lead section and added Monitoring section at the end (to incorporate current condition of the mountain). I have a plan to add one more section about nature condition, but I will make a scratch first at my sandbox. About two columns of refs, it's okay for me. I use Safari browser and it does not affect at all. The section is still in 1 column :-). Thanks for your help. Perhaps you can add some comments in the article's FAC entry. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 09:38, 14 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know. Maybe after a few days of inactivity period that an admin will close it. BTW, I asked several I**a users to give comments, because that's what FA article goes in FAC. In many articles that I saw there, the number of supports mostly come from the article project. And mostly who objected them come from outsider. For example, Featured_article_candidates/West_Bengal with a lot of I**an names supporting it while I was objecting it. Amazingly, it gets FA anyway, although one professional editor heavily objected it. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 09:49, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

ANI
Yeah, i know, i just posted that to start things happening--Striver 11:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Pewara
googling this word makes me realise how many damn other web basedd info systems pull directly off wikipedia... your guess is as good as mine - I wouldnt treat any of the web sites i saw carrying the info as reliable sources SatuSuro 06:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * As for pendopo and kraton - I could use up a large space here on issues that arise relative to both articles - but getting too late. Enjoy!! SatuSuro 14:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
 * What I should have said was - the issues that arose trying to keep the kraton article free of becoming an american advertisment for polymer (a bit like java dan lain lain :- and the difficult sources on pendopo - a big problem with some centraal javanese symbolism is invented 'etymology' or folk etymology - I presume you have encountered it - can get complicated to sourcce that one! however - it's there somewhere!
 * the whole Bantul sugar tramway broad gauage railway line (that's a lot of line) and rolling stock holus bolus to manchuria - yes its in the brit intelligence report -uthor Allied Geographical Section. Southwest Pacific Area TitleRailways - Java : 6 July, 1945 Published	 [S.l.] : The Section, 1945 Serie Special report (Allied Geographical Section. Southwest Pacific Area) ; 0076  and also from informants who livedd next to the narrow gauge seassonal sugar tramways that were along the jalan parangtritis and jalan imogiri - cripes gotta go - trust you are well. sampai nanti SatuSuro 14:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey
I'm sorry for bothering you, do you know how to translate "lingkaran setan" into english?If you don't know nevermind. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 13:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot. Yes you are correct. Revenge killings go around and around, creating a lingkaran setan. Echols & Shadily is very good, i can say. Thanks, once again. Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 14:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome Back
Check out Indon's List of Indon Volcs! and please talk before doing anything drastic on candi art - thanks!SatuSuro 01:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh and BTW - on my talk page - there's the red link guy further up - re wanting to talk to daniel dtasprin - I am probably going to do a adam carr principle on the guy -no

respond to endless red link...SatuSuro 01:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Re the talk on the candi - I might be a day or so before I can come up with a reasonable reply to your points, hope thats ok. SatuSuro 08:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've tried to explain on the candi page - I have no problem about explaining at length my problems with antiquity and temple - but lets see what you think of what I have written first! Cheers! SatuSuro 14:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Link to Indonesian Magazines
Why is the link to Online Indonesian Magazines is removed? Isn't it related to Indonesia. How people live, what the current news is, etc.

Architecture gallery at commons
Hi, I've made a new category in commons: Commons:Category:Architecture of Indonesia. I've put some pictures from Commons and will add more from Wikipedia and other sources. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 10:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

My talk page
Hi, I wonder why did you remove one section from my talkpage? I know that you are not such a person who likes to delete things without explaining, so I think you have a very good reason for that. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 11:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry. An accident. I reverted. :-) --Merbabu 11:36, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hahaha, it's all okay. I know you. I had thought that it's just an accident. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 11:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Architecture photos
Thanks for the question - I dont know of any web based or wiki ones, and my own - I wont be able to upload them until late december the ways things are going. very sorry cannot help in the short term. SatuSuro 12:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC) My apologies also - I spoke for you on Indon's page in relation to his work on the Volcano list - I should have restrained myself and let you make your own comments SatuSuro 12:35, 22 November 2006 (UTC)  BTW if will be off for a week on Friday - looking forward to see what suprises you and Indon can do in that time, best wishes SatuSuro 14:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Mount Tambora
Yesss!! Thank you!! We have now a real FA Indonesia-related article for the project. Gosh, I should let Imoeng know. He's in the wrong community now. Thanks again for your help. BTW, this is not my own work but the project's. &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 12:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Style
I think you need to consider your communication style. On Talk:Indonesia you have pasted reams of information and it is not at all clear what is an article or your own words.


 * we usually expressly say so dont we?

Furthermore, the sheer volume of stuff means that no one is likely to read it,


 * no? so if you take the trouble reading the discussion pages on
 * indonesia you're not really interested in a thourough discussion
 * on indonesia??
 * Well, ok, granted the volume is big and most people might not
 * read one of the most controversial issues concerning the recent
 * history of Indonesia and one of the worlds top ten massacres.
 * Even if it's debated here for a while.
 * I too skip info I'm not interested in.
 * but I'm not sure I see a great big problem here.

let alone reply (have you thought why you have such a lack of response?). To readers - others have confirmed - it really appears as ramblings. Try and make your points more succint and to the point if you want your message to register with readers. Also, editing passages written over a week ago, is probably wasting your time. It's the age of the short attention span. No matter how much material you can post in the talk page, alleged CIA involvement is not really going to be featured in an article with as broad a coverage as Indonesia. History, is only one section of the article, and this is only one part of a 6000 year history. We are NOT looking to lengthen the article. --Merbabu 01:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * None of the last posts are my words. I am not looking for replies,

I am looking to put serious credible information _with_ all it's sources out there, for any future readers who _actually_ wants to understand the why and how wiki reads as it does, and for them to see what the previous discussions were all about.

And precisely because this is the age of the short attention span, I have quoted the most important parts of the articles at length, since it seems that very few (not even you) will bother to follow a link to check the sources or their validity and credibility.

As to wether or not it "appears as ramblings" to someone who is not really interested in the real history of Indonesia at all...

go figure.

The "alledged" CIA involvement is so thouroughly documented by now, (at _length_), by what must be more than a hundred, if not thousands of official sources, including historians and scholars worldwide, books, National reports, major newspapers, the CIA themselves, former operatives, a dozen documentaries, the BBC, former UK ambassadors and half a dozen investigating journalists or more so you border on the ridiculous still using your "alledged".

I'd really suggest you'd actually start read some credible and deeper ivestigative history instead of posting _your_ own opinions, or even the mainstream misconceptions.

But I'll grant you this, that changes should primarily be made to the wiki page "talk/discussion - History of Indonesia", but since Indonesia was were the discussion started the "correct opportunity to move it never materialized." but feel free to move the last "rants" there if you wish. I'll move my comments to those pages.

I actually care about honest reporting, sources and credibility. don't you?

-John Smith (nom de guerre) 02:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Not looking for replies
I believe that the large scale placing of raw data on wikipedia talk pages or article talk pages can be only provocative and asking for considerable angst from certain types of admin persons - there are considerable constraints upon wikipedia servers if every editor loaded all their source material verbatim onto the talk pages - the servers might well collapse. I believe if smith seriously investigated creating his own blog - he might save himself and wikipedia from some serious bandwidth and server load issues.

As someone who has delved into the 65/65 and soeharto era - all the material presented to date is only a small part of a larger and more complex tapestry of events - regardless of the emphasis of whether foreign intelligence service involvement might be a good start for Smith:

the "alledged" CIA involvement is so thouroughly documented by now, (at _length_), by what must be more than a hundred, if not thousands of official sources, including historians and scholars worldwide, books, National reports, major newspapers, the CIA themselves, former operatives, a dozen documentaries, the BBC, former UK ambassadors and half a dozen investigating journalists

if this the case maybe smith should create a bibliography of this marvellous horde - and indeed it could possibly be the corner-stone of an article The CIA and Sukarno - and if it was done as a proper wikipedia article - perhaps all the energy expended into doing it properly might give a good lesson on the discipline of creating a good article - rather than dumping material on talk pages! SatuSuro 08:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Having apparently reached some possible agreement on the need not to make the Indonesia summary page a long-winded POV (even if "accurate") rehash of a John Pilger documentary, "John" and I seem to have agreed that some of this stuff could find a home in more specific articles (ie, History of INdonesia, Downfall of Sukarno, Suharto, etc). I just hope he is as bold using his sources to contribute to these articles, as he is pasting reams of info (and then continuously re-editing the formatting) into talk pages. ;-) I was also a little resentful of the implication that we are all plebs   who don't know anymore than what is in a New Order era school text book (or what is apparently still in Indonesian schools). But, if he can get some of that info into the articles (so we can copy edit it) then he can be forgiven--Merbabu 08:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

A reply
BTW - I am going to miss wikipedia over the next week - but the break might help me have some fresh ideas - I really want to start category Indonesian publishers - I started the Indonesian Heritage Series stub - the other day -  I own my copy of volume 1 which I brought in Singapore earlier this year - which explains why I am so very idfficult and  finicky about the candi issue - and also a stub on the magnificent Lontar foundation - I really do think that the lack of well written materials about the media/press/ and publishers is a shortcoming of the project - but I also want to follow up on the 'outsider' historians and anthropologists - having met quite a few - I really think they need entries - but whether 'Indonesianists or Javanists' would come anywhere near a suitable category I am not sure, I'll be back on that one. SatuSuro 09:09, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Re - your message on my talk page - I am sorry I get diverted to tangents all the time ie daily. My apologies - point taken - I will have look before I dissapear tomorrow. :)
 * (1) Personally I do not think any one editor should be lumped with some of the issues that arise - I do think its needs to be in a shared forum so that other editors can be off assistance - so my apology for carrying on on your talk page - I should have dealt with this problem on the Indonesia talk page!
 * (2) Anyone - who has claims to authority on some of the issues re 65/66 has got it wrong anyway - there is no such thing as absolute truth and on those events specially - regardless of their claim to have 'the supersemar original document' or aidit's passport - by all reports it was a complex event that will have points of evolution of knowledge about, and understanding long after the last tapol or cia agent  dies  anyway.
 * (3) There is a wikipedia essay Beware of the tigers I think its what I have been meaning to come to terms with recently when confronted by carriers of the 'truth' on wikipedia SatuSuro 08:58, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Re Indonesia page - I was going to leave a message there but the size complaint at the top encouraged archiving - so I did 2 - because of the sheer volume - and left a note re what your item was responding to - hope you dont mind! SatuSuro 09:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC) Someone has going to molly coddle the fervour I think....actually there might have to be a roster..sigh I've got one of the perth admins watching :)  Thanks for considering me, I will be on fairly late tonight - so no panic.:) SatuSuro 10:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a start at User:SatuSuro/Architecture List - just in case I run out of time - the main point I think I havent made there, is that the main titles are good - just need to make sure the heirarchy to further smaller arts works - and sufficient acknowledgement of smaller elements (to us) are sufficiently covered... SatuSuro 11:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC) ::I've had it! I'm gone!  Keep well - enjoy life and I'll get back to you when I am back on! SatuSuro 14:42, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:INDOEUROPE WEB.jpg
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Photos of Bali
Thank you for your comment on commons:User talk:っ. Sure, I haven't uploaded all of my photos on buildings of Bali. What kind of photos do you want to get? (Could you put your commont on ja:User talk:っ rather than on commons?)--っ (Tsutsu) 14:33, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

just a note on one of your edits
Hey, just as a note (regarding your edit to Indonesia) - Muslims and Muslims look exactly the same in the article, so it's purely personal preference as to which you use...just so you don't think that all articles should have edits like that, or something XD Not a huge issue, just something I thought you should know. — K e  akealani  22:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone do something about this user:RaptorRobot/user:Jackp conspiracy?
--Greasysteve13 06:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough.--Greasysteve13 00:16, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Intermezzo
Just for fun. Have you tried search Indonesia on Google? The top most search is Indonesia. Woohoo ;-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 11:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No, if you searched it on google.co.id. It will choose Indonesian language page on the top. :P Peace. --Nielswik(talk) 05:33, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but they are still not number one. Mount Tambora is at the top, but if you search only "Tambora" it is not. :-) &mdash; Indon ( reply ) &mdash; 11:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)