User:Montanabw/Spanish horses sandbox

Paso discussion 2008-09
Hey, long time no chat. A newbie just created Puerto Rican Paso Fino, which I didn't merge or redirect 'cause heck, I dunno if it deserves its own article. Wanna help the newbie out? later! Ling.Nut (talk&mdash;WP:3IAR) 08:51, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Will check. Thanks.   Montanabw (talk) 10:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I'll be glad to add any source material needed for " Puerto Rican Paso Fino" or " Paso Fino - Sub Directory Puerto Rican Paso Fino" Much will have to be translated as sources for this breed are mainly in Spanish. But I will start with what is wanted most if anyone has suggestions.

Arsdelicata (talk) 03:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Arsdelicata (talk) 03:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, I've read the appy article and the others as well. I have less info on the Colombian Paso Fino... I don't know how the article can be incorporated exactly.

There is going to alot of hard work with the breed standards. Each country has a different one,

Colombian Paso Finos are Called different things, Paso Fino Colombiano, Caballo Colombiano de Paso. etc. in Puerto Rico.

In Colombia, my understanding is that they have one national breed called Caballo Criollo Colombiano, with three gaits Paso Fino ( this is Modality or gait within the CCC ) Trocha ( no word in English to my knowledge. It is a rapid, Diagonal trot with no suspension period in the air, so therefore it is very comfortable.) Trote y Galope ( Trot and Gallop/Canter)No word for canter in Spanish to my knowledge. these three " Varieties" called modalities of Gait over there, while considered one breed are rarely mixed, as it would be detrimental to the specific gait of the " Variety".

I'm also not sure how to ask for input on Paso Fino talk... I notice that there are ratings there... but no questions or suggestions or corrections. Portal Colombia gave the lowest rating... but why don't they explain why or add what needs to be added? Thanx for your time in advance. Arsdelicata (talk) 14:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Answer over on Paso Fino article.  Montanabw (talk) 20:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Montanabw I posted and their is one response, from another user on Paso Fino talk. I have the books for Puerto Rican Paso Fino horse breed specifically, waiting on some others. I can't help much with Peruvian Paso, but I could donate pictures of Colombian Trocha horse, Colombian Trote and Galope horse, as well as specifically Colombian Paso Fino and specifically Puerto Rican Paso Fino and "Andadura". I also have donate-able pictures of specific horse colors and also Oxen teams if needed. My first experience on Wiki was seeing that there was no category for the Puerto Rican Paso Fino and therefore to go adding stuff as time let me. I had no idea it was not allowed... Or is it? Anyway, if I can learn and help on other subjects until that one is cleared up, I will. Arsdelicata (talk) 00:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Just dropping by to say hello, might be away til mid march, swamped (work), but I was reading Hendricks, so far the only resource in writing in English for the Costa Rican Saddle Horse. lots of nice tidbits in there. By the way it there an article on the Asturian Horse? It seems there are more gaited breeds than I previously knew about, also an interesting link to curly coats and gaited horses I have to look into. I'll keep an eye out for a perle looking horse. Arsdelicata (talk) 03:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Arsd, thanks for the word on the issue. I think we do have an Asturian article, check List of horse breeds -- both horse and pony sections, and if there isn't one, post a request at WP:EQUINE for us to add it to the list.   Montanabw (talk) 04:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Colombian Paso Fino and Pasos
Hi Montanabw, I am told that the FAO (2005) recognized the Colombian Criollo Breed. No link to FAO, but here is the WiKipage I read about it on Iberian horse. If we can find them online and see how they describe or word the breed/breeds/types/forms, It will/might help greatly. Arsdelicata (talk) 04:48, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

MTW, this is the champion Caballo Criollo Colombiano Paso Fino in Colombia, he was flown to PR and won the Paso Mundial in 2005 and I think also won the USA mundial. So I think this is a 3x or more World champion. Colombian Paso Fino Champion Arsdelicata (talk) 06:56, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a Caballo Colombiano or Trocha and Galope Trocha and Golope. Arsdelicata (talk) 08:21, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a Video of Colombian Trocha, with some slow motion takes, by the paso Pedigree site you likes Champion Colombian Trocha, and slow motion

Arsdelicata (talk) 11:01, 8 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I will try to look at it, I have a dialup at home, which is s-l-o-w (But also makes me understand why galleries are baaad within wikipedia articles =:-O ) A have ridden a Colombian-bred mare who would occasionally try to trocha and her owner was quite insistent about never, ever  allowing her to get away with it.  In short, though, explain to me if there is really any significant difference between the trocha and the fox trot -- both are four beat diagonal  gaits, are they not?  (Whereas the paso gaits are lateral)  Montanabw (talk) 04:27, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Montanabw, the foxtrot is an easy traveling gait. The trocha is a snappier show gait. The front leg may land an instant before the hind of opposite side, but just an instant (as in the trot). Some refer to the foxtrot as walking in the front end while trotting in the back end. Trocha is a square gait, the movement equal in both front and rear ends prized, plus the piston choo choo action that the foxtrot is not. Some trainers can get a paso to do both paso fino and trocha well enough to have it registered as both a paso fino and a trocha horse in the registry or as one in one registry and the other gait in another registry. but, some trocha aficionados feel that this ruins the trocha, because trocha horses when tired of trocha or when collected,( pressure applied to the reins ) with then start to paso fino instead. Some trocha breeders believe fino blood will ruin the trocha gait and discourage using it for this reason. I am think of making animations(animated gifs) of all these gaits to illustrate the differences. The lateral Paso Gaits and even the rack, flat walk, and others also differ. For example, the Peruvian Paso lifts the front legs higher that it's rear legs as it moves, this is not a good trait in the classic fino or trocha classes where equality is prized. Because I was used to trotting breeds before my interest in pasos, I had a hard time seeing the differences in the beginning, all pasos and even the rack, tolt, and others looking all alike to me (and they are pretty similar). An Asian horse the Marwari,(seen in India and Pakistan) can also execute a lateral gait called the "Rawal." But I need to get the books that explain this well. I only know of the "Rawal" from youtube. It seems that aficionados may not except a that a tolt and rack are the same in many ways, or maybe a locomotion expert will say they are some day and really tick off a lot of people. On the other hand, breed aficionados may often explain the differences to show how these breeds differ from one another. Many smooth gaited horse breed aficionados seem to of have been un-aware of each other in the past, and claimed to have the smoothest gait in the entire world. As they become aware of each other that wording will hopefully change, yet some still claim they are the smoothest because the legs are lifted less, because their is no head shake, because the feat land in equal 1-2-3-4 time intervals or whatever. but in reality, it is all just propaganda, redundant and very tiring. I think the general term of "a smooth gait" is best instead of this "smoothest in world stuff."Arsdelicata (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * LOL! Yes, they ALL claim to be the smoothest gait in the world. And NONE of them have a gait that is like any other, they ALL are completely UNIQUE!  (And write that way, too!)  Actually had an edit war with someone at the Peruvian Paso article who kept wanting to say things like that.  I think they are also capable of walking on water!  ALL of them!  LOL!  I think that being faster than a speeding bullet and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound may also be involved.  Believe it or not, I actually once had a minor editing dispute at an article where an aficionado mentioned a breed's ears "could rotate 360 degrees."  They were NOT happy to be informed that ALL horse's ears can rotate 360 degrees!  :-P   There are also many breed fans who seem to feel that they have the only duns on the planet and that this is a unique breed feature (an issue at two articles in the last month, for starters.)   Montanabw (talk) 00:19, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As for gaits, if we sorted out all the variations of the trot (horse gait), you will note that one could also probably claim some breeds to have a unique gait-- yet the Lipizzan, the American Quarter Horse, the trotting Standardbred and the 3-gaited American Saddlebred all just "trot." LOL!  I am actually glad that Bennett made the call to refer to gaited horses as "ambling."  It makes things so much simpler for the rest of us!

But, admitting that I am a cretan, (though we did once own a halfbred Tennessee Walker who was gaited) As far as I can tell, the Tolt and the Rack ARE almost exactly the same thing other than perhaps in performance style -- both are rapid four beat lateral gaits that I think are supposed to be performed with an even 1-2-3-4 rhythm (and if I may be an apostate, other than style, is there really any difference between the rack and the largo? LOL!) (grinning, ducking and running...)  I have ridden the Largo, and admit that it's an absolute head rush...never realized how fast it was until I stopped, turned around and noticed that a friend's quarter horse was GALLOPING to catch up! =:-D


 * Technically, "walking in front and trotting in back" is not what's realy going on, when that happens with trotting horses in things like western pleasure, they call it "four-beating" (because they aren't supposed to be gaited, even though many are, god forbid we call it an amble or a slow gait!  LOL!)-- all it means is that the trot broke down into four beats.  When a horse is SUPPOSED to be gaited, the best description I have ever heard of the fox trot is actually to describe it as a rhythm of:  1-2, 3-4 instead of the metronomic, even 1-2-3-4 that I think is what is valued in the Pasos.  So, if I am hearing you right, the difference in the trocha and the fox trot is that while both are diagonal four beat gaits (and I think the same footfall sequence), the action and rhythm is markedly different?  BTW, Do you want to add a note on the "rawal" to Marwari horse and maybe to ambling?

Cool, we agree. I noted the Peruvian Paso divides differences in extension. One gait(the faster more extended) being more like a broken pace a lateral 1-2, 3-4. This is what Andadura is really. and the same way they divided the gait into extensions, the Paso Fino did the same with Corto and largo, but to say it that way would be "original research" I guess. Yes, a diagonal 1-2, 3-4 is I think the best way to describe the foxtrot. I ordered the International Encyclopedia of horse breeds book, so when I get it I'll place quotes on different pages for "Rawal" and the Costa Rican Saddle horse, or any other tidbit I think can benefit a particular article. The problem with some words as well, is the meaning, and that meaning changing depending on where you are geographically or who you are speaking to. Criollo sort of means local, native or indigenous, so if you are in Costa Rica they are probably talking about their particular native horses, but they might be talking about the "Criollo", that other tough Argentinian breed, gosh, you know, Paso just means step really. Today I told a non horse person something about thoroughbreds, called "pure bloods" in Spanish. Since they were not a horse person they asked me if I was referring to "racehorses" and I said yes, suddenly realizing that to them thoroughbred just means "well bred horses," and not a particular breed. It has me really stumped sometimes when thinking about how to word things in writing. I'll be back to work on the articles, probably the paso fino sandbox most, then others as I get material on them. you really have to see Trocha with your own eyes in regular as well as slow motion since it is so fast, to understand it. the foot fall is most like a trot, but really fast, and they don't bounce up and down. The body of the horse stays still. Arsdelicata (talk) 02:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, Galope/ the Colombian GallopThis is slow motion and other explanations of the Colombian Galope, or Canter where the horse always has at least one leg on the ground, making it smoother than any other. The voice over explanation is in Spanish, BUT the slow motion shots will let you see exactly what is going on. Arsdelicata (talk) 05:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh LOL! "Thoroughbred " in English IS the breed and only the breed, "purebred" is proper horse lingo for all other breeds-- So you mean the Spanish have it the other way around?  =:-O  We had a huge discussion about this when we took Thoroughbred to FA status.   The non-horse people were having hissy fits when we stated that "little t" thoroughbred" to describe "purebred" animals was improper use.  You would enjoy seeing the chat about that as well as the final version that appeared in the article.  Hee Hee!   Montanabw (talk) 23:15, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * As for the gait stuff, The caner video is interesting... I was surprised to see that they can do that without 4-beating the canter, which is what I anticipated I would see (Note tothe planet: MtBW IS willing to change her mind on issues!  LOL!) ! As for the rest, it might be OR, but I think you have it correct anyway. I'd say move this over to the talk page for the PF article and we can pop it in there.  When there isn't really a summary out there, we may technically be on thin ice to do something like cite to a YouTube video as a source, but given how little material is written down, in this case I say "proceed until apprehended," especially where the narrative supports the video (I'll trust you on the Spanish, LOL!) We may get slapped later, but as long as we remember this is wikiland, where one must not have any ego, we will survive.  The article on gaits and gaited horses I used as a source in the ambling article was one of the first I had ever seen that put all the gaits side by side...even things like the Saddlebred's "slow gait" allow multiple named ambling gaits, (stepping pace, running walk, etc) which I think MIGHT mean that when the old timers were putting together the rules, that really meant that they allowed just about anything, the 1-2, 3-4 rhythm or the 1-2-3-4 rhythm.  I'd have to check the rules, but I think they might even allow the fox trot as a "slow gait," though I'd think the transition would be sort of weird (Like going from trocha to largo--seems some known law of physics is broken there!)
 * Hi Montanabw, Yeah, there is no word for Thoroughbred in Spanish to my knowledge, so they call it the English Pure Blood raze, or the "Pure Blood" for short in a literal translation. I am rather stumped as how to go for the history of the Colombian Criollo in all modalities, plus there is the issue that they have several "Legendary" stallions, but no clear founder like "Dulce Sueño" is for the modern(Puerto Rican)Paso Fino. I have less history and any if not all is probably in Spanish, but I am not giving up on finding some English stuff yet. The description of the Colombian gaits was translated from a Spanish online document from Colombia I guess. I will look at the articles you pointed me too above as well. BTW, the Banker Horse article looks great. I wish we had more info like that on the Paso Fino genes, bones, etc. What does annoy me I guess is that all varieties of the Colombian Pasos are now in some cases being advertised as the other types of Paso Finos, which they never were, but since Colombian Paso Owners want to market them along with the more famous Paso Fino term, ughhh. In reality the Paso Fino is the name of the Puerto Rican breed. But hey, it is a free country. The 1-2-3-4 Rhythm is the golden rule for many gaited breeds. They even have training methods to get a gaited horse to move right or to counteract pacyness and trottyness.Arsdelicata (talk) 16:16, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

The PFHA is now having shows (Categories) for Trocha and Trote and Golope Horses. So For now I'll work on keeping them included in the sandbox, and getting more info to elaborate. Maybe your idea on sections is good until each one cane enough to be it's own article.Arsdelicata (talk) 16:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

On the Resemblence (NOT) of the Sorraia and Przewalski
Greetings Montana--so glad for your weighing in on the statement and reference of the similarities in phenotype of the Sorraia and Przewalski. From where I sit, what Kim was relaying is linked to the close, though not identical clustering of mtDNA as grounds for what would better be termed, "genetic relatedness", which I expect to bring up in the discussion page (if not tonight, then tomorrow). "Resemblence" of phenotype are completely different and there are no similarities other than the Przewalski is dun and Sorraias are dun and grulla. But as I thought we came to an understanding on, the dun of the Sorraia is different than that of the Przewalski which has the pangare dilution giving it lighter underparts and a "mealy" mouth (also lightness around the eyes), whereas the Sorria displays dark, sooty features...its distinctly different. Przewalski horses tend towards a majority of red dun, which is something you never find in Sorraia. And I wish maybe some of the folks who want to lump Przewalski with Sorraia would actually look at the photos of the two--or are the HUGE differences only apparent to me, (she who lives with a Sorraia stallion?). At any rate, how very interesting the Sorraia review has become! Selona (talk) 00:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Montana, yes, I can always use more beer. You know one of the slogans I best like is "Drink Guinness, It's Good For You". Thanks for your comments. I can appreciate snarkiness when the snarker is a self-aware individual, which you seem to be. And though it's kicked up a lot of dust, I think its beneficial to explore the possibility that Przewalski is not the only living "true wild" horse, although I realize you've surely got better things to do than spend any brain power on what you consider an absurd postulation. LOL!Selona (talk) 14:27, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Mustang resources/Colonial Spanish horse

 * http://www.blm.gov/wy/st/en/field_offices/Rawlins/wh/desertdust.html History of Mustangs in Wyoming... "he rancher estimated that six to seven thousand horses once roamed that part of Wyoming." Includes story of "Desert Dust."


 * http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/whbprogram/herd_management/HMA_and_HA_Maps.html List of HMAs


 * Book on BLM management

NORTH AMERICAN COLONIAL SPANISH HORSE Part I, History and Type by D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, Ph.D.
 * http://web.archive.org/web/20080516154204/http://www.conquistador.com/mustang.html

Global Horse culture interview with Sponenberg
 * http://globalhorseculture.typepad.com/global_horse_culture/2008/03/dr-phil-sponenb.html

"Conservation of Spanish Mustangs/Colonial Spanish Horses in the USA, and the need for a complete inventory of remaining undocumented horses." D. P. Sponenberg
 * http://www.frontiernet.net/~ranchotamarisque/SponenbergFrame.htm


 * http://www.horseoftheamericas.com Horse of the Americas registry

Pryor Mustangs
 * http://www.pryormustangs.org/about_horses.shtml


 * http://www.horseoftheamericas.com/conservingcousins.pdf


 * http://www.americanspanishsulphur.org/Sponenberg.html

NORTH AMERICAN COLONIAL SPANISH HORSE UPDATE, July 2011 D. Phillip Sponenberg, DVM, PhD
 * http://www.centerforamericasfirsthorse.org/north-american-colonial-spanish-horse.html


 * http://msindianhorses.blogspot.com/2010/05/dr-sponenbergs-view-on-matter.html


 * http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/02/27/jhered.est003.full.pdf


 * http://vetmed.tamu.edu/directorydetail?UserID=255 Gus Cothran, the other expert


 * http://www.livescience.com/27686-mustangs.html Mustangs are a breed argument


 * http://www.nmautah.org/wildhorse.htm#What%20is%20a%20Mustang? "not a breed" argument North American Mustang Assn

" The American Mustang is a descendant of the first horses introduced into North America by the Spanish Conquistadores. During the last two centuries some genetic influence has occurred from U.S. Cavalry mounts and ranch horses which have run loose among the herds of wild horses in the western U.S"
 * http://ambainc.net/?page_id=2 American Mustang and Burro Association, Inc.


 * http://www.namarmustangs.com


 * http://www.uswhba.org


 * http://www.kbrhorse.net/whb/whbgroup.html


 * http://americanmustangsociety.com (dead link)


 * http://www.americanheritagehorse.org


 * http://www.research.vt.edu/resmag/2007winter/sponenberg.html


 * https://books.google.com/books?id=ZL3A097IbjsC&pg=PA392&lpg=PA392&dq=Landrace+horses&source=bl&ots=IxGH0a6BAx&sig=t-exz-Aywo4Xfe8qgaRBgS3_JMM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u3hcUY-LNoSbiALs2YD4CQ&ved=0CFsQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=Landrace%20horses&f=false


 * https://books.google.com/books?id=GmsDwDuuP2cC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Mustang&f=false


 * http://books.google.com/books/about/America_s_Last_Wild_Horses.html?id=gA5JAAAAYAAJ


 * http://www.research.vt.edu/resmag/2007winter/sponenberg.html


 * http://www.hoperyden.com/america_s_last_wild_horses_1389.htm


 * http://wildhorsepreservation.org/about


 * National Park Service and feral horses: http://www.thehorse.com/articles/35557/managing-feral-horses-on-national-park-service-lands


 * Forest service main page on horses on their lands http://www.fs.fed.us/rangelands/ecology/wildhorseburro/whb_faqs.shtml (incl evolved in North America)