User:Nederlandse Leeuw/Pretenders

A collection of past, present and future discussions at WP:AFD, WP:CFD, WP:TFD, or other talk pages, on articles/lists, categories and templates of lines of succession to former thrones of abolished monarchies, or lines excluded from existing monarchies, claimants, pretenders, and other related dynastic stuff.

TompaDompa list
So basically, the same reasons as the previous 32 lines of succession to defunct thrones that have been deleted recently (1 Austro-Hungarian 2 Afghan 3 Two Sicilies 4 Dungarpur 5 Rampur 6 Rajpipla 7 Iraqi 8 Hyderabad 9 Hanoverian 10 Jodhpur 11 Waldeck and Pyrmont 12 Idar 13 Kutch 14 Jammu and Kashmir 15 Tunisian 16 Vadodara (Baroda) 17 Travancore 18 Anhalt 19 Hessian 20 Bharatpur 21 German 22 Württemberg 23 Georgian 24 Bavarian 25 Baden 26 Bulgarian 27 Portuguese 28 Iranian 29 Egyptian 30 Brazilian 31 Albanian 32 Romanian). TompaDompa (talk) 13:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Later additions: 33 Saxon 34 Nepalese 35 Montenegrin 36 Italian 37 Greek 38 Bhopal 39 Russian 40 Mecklenburg.

Past article discussions
In addition to TompaDompa's 32 (40) precedents (a few items overlap):


 * Articles for deletion/Tarent claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem 4 December 2009
 * Articles for deletion/Brienne claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem 19 February 2019
 * Neutral point of view/Noticeboard/Archive 83 March–June 2020.
 * Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)/Archive 24 March–July 2020.

Current article situation

 * House of Bourbon-Two Sicilies still lists pretenders to present after the deletion of 3 Two Sicilies.
 * Competitors for the Crown of Scotland. This one is limited to a specific historical period, the Great Cause, and should be kept.
 * Carlism. This might be significant enough of a movement in Spain to be acceptable, as Spain is still a monarchy, and Carlist pretenders tend to be somewhat prominent. We should probably keep this list.
 * List of movements that dispute the legitimacy of a reigning monarch. Never nominated. Not sure if it should be kept or merged/redirected or deleted. Currently its contents are quite arbitrary, and perhaps they will always be.
 * Main article Pretender needs a serious cleanup.
 * Talk:List of heads of former ruling families/Archive 2 19 June 2020. Moved from List of current pretenders to Heads of former ruling families
 * Talk:List of heads of former ruling families 21 January 2024. Moved from Heads of former ruling families to List of heads of former ruling families. The question remains: What is the relevance of "head of family X" to "former ruling family X", except to press a claim towards a current or former throne that family X used to rule from?
 * If they do not press such a claim, then why should we care who the current head of that formerly reigning family is? Why not just have a List of former ruling families? Hint: Articles for deletion/List of royal houses (deleted 26 December 2013).
 * If they do press a claim, how is this any different from all the other Lines of succession to the former X throne that we have deleted? (Redirect Claimants to defunct monarchies suggests that this is the scope).

7 June 2007 mass nom

 * 09:20, 7 June 2007 Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 28. Keep. Several categories were later deleted anyway. Some still exist, even though their associated list of pretenders has been deleted.
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Württemberg
 * Category:Pretenders to the Albanian throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Albanian throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the Austrian throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Austro-Hungarian throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the Bohemian throne
 * Category:Pretenders to the Brazilian throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Brazilian throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the English, Scottish and Irish thrones > deleted 19 November 2007 due to being empty.
 * Category:Pretenders to the Haitian throne > deleted 9 March 2011 due to being empty.
 * Category:Pretenders to the Hungarian throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Austro-Hungarian throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the Italian throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Italian throne
 * Category:Pretenders to the Polish throne > deleted 19 November 2007 due to being empty.
 * Category:Pretenders to the Portuguese throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Portuguese throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the Russian throne (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Russian throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the Serbian throne (but Articles for deletion/List of heirs to the Yugoslav throne and Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Yugoslav throne redirected)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of Andorra > deleted 25 June 2008 deleted, nonexistent, or invalid target
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of Romania (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Romanian throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the Empire of China (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Chinese throne renamed and then Articles for deletion/Head of the former Chinese imperial clan deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the German Empire (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former German throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the Mexican Empire, redirected to Category:Pretenders to the Mexican throne (2024: Articles for deletion/Pretenders to the throne of Mexico deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the grand duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Mecklenburg thrones deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the grand duchy of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Mecklenburg thrones deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Bavaria (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Bavarian throne
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Hanover > 22 June 2008 deleted, nonexistent, or invalid target
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Iraq (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Iraqi throne deleted)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Montenegro (but Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former Montenegrin throne redirected)
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Prussia > redirects to Category:Pretenders to the German throne; Articles for deletion/Line of succession to the former German throne was deleted
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of Württemberg > 9 January 2008 speedy delete
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of the Two Sicilies > 9 January 2008 speedy delete
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of the Two Sicilies (Calabria) > 5 January 2008 due to being empty.
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the kingdom of the Two Sicilies (Castro) > 5 January 2008 due to being empty.
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the principality of Schaumburg-Lippe > 9 January 2008 speedy delete
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of the principality of Waldeck und Pyrmont > 26 November 2007 deleted: Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 19 The result of the debate was Delete with essentially the same rationale as Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 18: "Per WP:BLP, we're going to err on the side of caution on this. This just screams for a need for references. Anyone who would like to nominate the the whole scheme of Category:Pretenders for listifying (or at least renaming) is welcome to do so."


 * Yet, on the same day by the same closer 14:13, 7 June 2007: Categories for discussion/Log/2007 June 1 delete.

Other catnoms

 * Categories for discussion/Log/2007 May 3 delete.
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2007 November 22 delete (1 item).
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2023 February 25 again delete (1 item).
 * Category:Pretenders to the throne of Hyderabad 11 February 2008 deleted as empty
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2022 September 27 redirect to Category:Dukes of Urach.
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2023 March 14 deleted as WP:NONDEFINING. Yet nobody has ever nominated Category:Heirs apparent who never acceded (726 P).
 * Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 2 Upmerged for now.

Current category situation

 * Category:Heirs apparent who never acceded (726 P).
 * Category:Pretenders


 * Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 12 pending...

Past template discussions

 * Templates for deletion/Log/2006 September 6 no consensus, therefore keep. (renamed several times until deleted in 2020 as Template:Former monarchic orders of succession, see below)
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2012 May 22 delete as unused.
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2012 November 7 Delete as duplicate of Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne (see below).
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2016 October 28 soft delete as unused and duplicate of List of heirs to the British throne.
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2019 March 21 delete as unused.
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2020 March 28 no consensus to merge with Template:Infobox royalty, but there may be consensus to delete the pretender infobox
 * Templates for discussion/Log/2020 August 31 delete as part of emerging consensus to delete Line of succession to the former X throne articles.
 * Template talk:Head of Aisin Gioro Template:Pretenders to the Chinese throne was moved to Template:Head of Aisin Gioro per WP:NPOV.

Current template situation

 * Template:House of Bonaparte. Either:
 * A: the text French Monarchy-Bonaparte Dynasty which has been there since its creation on 8 November 2005 needs to be removed; or
 * B: all non-monarchs, that is, everyone except Napoleon I, II, and III, need to be purged. No children which have also been there since its creation on 8 November 2005, no spouses, no pretenders, claimants, whatsoever, after 1870.
 * Otherwise, this template will always be a Bonapartist vehicle of sorts, and we can't have that per WP:NPOV.


 * Template:Pretenders to the French throne. Purge after 1870. See above.
 * Template:House of Orléans. Purge after 1870. See above.
 * Template:French royal family (Orléanist). Purge after 1870. See above.
 * Template:Princes of Orléans. Purge after 1870. See above.
 * Template:Dukes of Anjou. Purge after 1870. See above.
 * Template:Pretenders to the German and Prussian thrones since 1918
 * Basically everything in Category:Pretender templates?!


 * Templates for discussion/Log/2024 June 12 pending...

Proposed guideline
Proposed shortcut: WP:PRETENDER.

When creating articles, lists or categories about people who are or were pretenders or claimants to a current or former dynastic title/throne/crown (be it royal, imperial, princely or otherwise noble in the context of hereditary monarchy), caution must be taken, and certain criteria must be followed.
 * Policies and guidelines
 * WP:BLP must be respected. Unless a living person is recorded in WP:RS as formally publicly claiming a particular title, they should not be framed as if they are a claimant or pretender. Such statements must be removed immediately, especially if the person in question has renounced such pretensions (as Otto von Habsburg did in 1961).
 * WP:NPOV must be adhered to. The 2020-11-03 RfC found a rough consensus that titles in pretense should not be generally used in article titles, infoboxes, etc. unless its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources demonstrates that a specific person is commonly named as such.
 * WP:OR and WP:SYNTH are strictly prohibited. It's not enough to say that Foo was a descendant of former monarch Bar, therefore Foo was a pretender who woulda coulda shoulda acceded to the throne if XYZ. Wikipedia is WP:NOTGENEALOGY, nor a WP:CRYSTALBALL for your future predictions, nor a forum to post your alternative history stories, nor a WP:SOAPBOX to promote your political opinions. Unless this theoretical possibility can be demonstrated with WP:RS to be relevant in the present, or to have been relevant in the past, it should not be mentioned.
 * Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, that is, just being a descendant of someone who once was a monarch does not mean every pretender gets to have a stand-alone Wikipedia page. In fact, they might not deserve a mention on Wikipedia at all in certain cases.
 * Practical applications
 * Allowed in lists:
 * It is allowed to create lists (be it stand-alone lists, or list sections in other articles) of historical pretenders or claimants to a throne in a time where that was a relevant issue, such as Competitors for the Crown of Scotland during the Great Cause of the 1290s.
 * It is also allowed to create lists of pretenders to current thrones who have formally publicly claimed that throne, and WP:RS show that this taken somewhat seriously in the current monarchy where another dynasty is currently reigning (e.g. Carlism).
 * Not allowed in lists:
 * It is not allowed to create lists of pretenders to former thrones of monarchies that were abolished 50 years ago or more (Bonapartist pretenders to the French throne after 1870, e.g. Succession to the former French throne (Bonapartist) after 1870, Bonapartism after 1870).
 * It is also not allowed to create lists of possible pretenders to a current throne if none of those people has actually formally publicly claimed that throne, be they living or dead (e.g. Jacobite succession pretenders after 1701).
 * Consorts (spouses, partners) of a pretender or claimant to a current or former throne should be excluded from lists of consorts of monarchs of country X.
 * Templates: It is not allowed to frame templates of formerly reigning families/houses in terms of "monarchy" or "dynasty" whilst extending its members all the way up to the present (e.g. Template:House of Bonaparte headed by French monarchy and Bonaparte dynasty, but extending far beyond 1870 up to the present pretender Jean-Christophe, Prince Napoléon, thereby implying that France is still a monarchy today, under the Bonaparte dynasty, and that this pretender is the current monarch).
 * Categorisation: Any person who cannot be labelled a pretender or claimant to a current or former throne (or a consort of one) in an article or list for any of the reasons outlined above, may not be categorised in Category:Pretenders or any of its subcategories.