User:Nvvchar/Archives/ July 2016

GAR for Sophia Duleep Singh
Hi! I just saw that you nominated Sophia Duleep Singh for GAR and that made me happy. :) I listened to a bit about her on a Stuff You Missed in History Class podcast not too long ago and started watching her article with the intention of making some improvements, but never got around to it. It's looking a lot better since then though! (Not to imply that it was so bad before, but it needed some TLC.) I do have some thoughts about it that I've left on the talkpage and no one has responded to. :( I'm hesitant to offer to start the review only because I've never done one before. Do you expect there will be another editor with more experience interested in reviewing it? My preference would be to let someone else do it, so I can follow it more closely than I usually have with other GARs so that I could learn for next time, but if it's been a little while and another editor hasn't started a review, you can ping me and I'd be willing to give it a try if you didn't mind that I might make some rookie mistakes. :) —PermStrump  ( talk )  15:51, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I have posted it on GA. Let us wait and see the comments. Thanks. Nvvchar . 01:56, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Good articles
I think there's a reason why you've been encountering trouble with DYKs. In the old days Rosie and myself would help copyedit your work and try to iron out some issues before we nominated them. Now you don't ask either of us. You know that you've long had trouble reading and copyediting your own work, which I believe stems from you not being a native speaker of English. The problem I see now is that you seem to have stopped wanting people to read your work and ensure it reads well and that you've correctly interpreted the sources used. I read somewhere that you do ask the League of copyeditors, but they only iron out the basic glitches, they don't give the subject matter a review when they do so. It's a bit worrying that you seem to be making GA a substitute for DYK now. What may be OK for DYK is most certainly not OK for GA level. User:Nvvchar/Pending GAs suggests to me that you're rushing to promote these and just checking a few of them they need a copyedit and work before they're promoted. I've never had that many articles in the queue at once, in fact I don't think I've ever nominated more than 2 articles at the same time. I suggest that you slow down Nvv, work on one article, try to make it the best you can, and then ask somebody to read and check it before you nominate it. You work very hard here and produce an amazing range of content, but you know where you encounter difficulties with reading your own work, so please don't try to promote content unless you allow people to look at what you've produced first. Certain reviewers here won't pick up on a lot of issues in your articles, and it's a bit worrying that articles like the Tobey article are being promoted when they're really not GA quality.♦ Dr. Blofeld  07:43, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

I've also noticed that you don't seem to use google books much anymore and tend to rely on PDFs or web sources. I can't evne verify the bulk of the info in Kadmat as the PDF link is dead. Kadmat Island picks up a fair few hits and the article would be much better off with more books used.♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:11, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Most book sources say it is 8km in length rather than 9.3 BTW..♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:02, 2 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your valued suggestions. I added from pdf sources as they are government sources. I will check the dead link and correct it. I will now add from the book sources you have suggested; will double check and add. As regards Tobey article, I can't find any more sources to improve it and it has already been demoted.  Nvvchar . 12:21, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it was delisted by Ritchie as there's not really anything else which can be added to it as you say, I did ask a few people to look. You can't really have an article at GA where there's barely little info available! Sorry about that. I'm just editing the Kadmat article now. If you could chase up that PDF and ensure all the figures are verifiable I think we can introduce more book content to improve it.♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:29, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

This is the dead source in the bibliography.♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:04, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Can you fix the Guard, Coast source link then?♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:02, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Have been busy with guests. I am now verifying the pages of this reference 7 which appears to  have text similar to this  dead link of guard ref in bibliography but page numbers are different.  I have also found more references for demographics. Will add them soon.  Nvvchar . 08:13, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm also seriously worried by the articles that got promoted to GA recently (which is as much a problem for the promotor as for you). One has been unpromoted already, and when I look at the most recent one, Udvada Atash Behram, it starts with

"The Udvada Atash Behram, also known as the Iran Shah, "King of Iran", is one of the eight fire temples (holy place of worship) of the Zoroastrian religion located in Udvada in Gujarat on the west coast of India; the only other Atash Behram outside India is in central Iran at Yazd. "

which is nonsense. It is not "one of the eight located in Udvada", it is located in Udvada and one of the eight in India. The Yazd one is not "the only other one outsie India", that one is the only one outside India (without the "other" which indicates that the Udvada one is outside India). A GA which starts out in such a way should never have been promoted (and possibly also never nominated).

Other parts of the article are equally hard to understand or parse: "the earliest link of worship of the sacred fire in Zoroastrian temples is dated to the 4th century BC."? "Their stay in Sanjan lasted for about four centuries till political events took a turn. In 1297,[...]" 1297-721=576, far from "about four centuries". In 1297, they fled to a cave and stayed there for 12 years; they then moved to Bansda where they satyed 14 years, when they moved to Navsari. This happened in ... 1419? 1297 + 12 + 14 = 1323, about a century off. The sources seem to be very unclear about what happened when, but in that case the article should reflect these contradictory sources, not try to invent a chronology that doesn't make sense. For example, according to this source you use, they only arrived in Gujarat in 936, not in 716-721.

"The Atash Behram ("Iran Shah fire") is a symbolic representation of the Zoroastrian monarchy of Iran that was overthrown by Arabs"? First, Atash Behram means "Victory fire", not "Iran Shah fire". Second, their most sacred symbol, a victory fire, is actually a defeat fire? Fire, in Zoroastrianism, is a symbol of God.

In the lead, you claim that the temple was built in 1742, "the Udavada temple which was built in 1742 AD." From the sources, it looks as if the current temple was built in 1892-1894, completely replacing the older buildings (they weren't refurbished, as you write, but rebuilt, like your source and others say). The architect you give for the temple is the one active in 1892, not one active in 1742.

Presumably going through the article sentence by sentence will reveal more similar problems, but it is quite clear to me that this shouldn't be a GA. . Fram (talk) 09:37, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's best that the material is checked before Nvv nominates and promotes. It's a good thing that Nvv is working on articles like this and promoting them, but generally need a copyedit and checking to ensure that they're as sound as a pound. ♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:50, 4 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I had a quick look. The first thing I got stuck on was "The Udvada Atash Behram, also called the Iran Shah, "King of Iran", is a fire temple of the Zoroastrian religion; one of the eight in India." Putting aside the stilted prose for a second, my first question is "does that mean one of eight Zoroastrian temples or one of eight fire temples in India?" Then we've got "It is located in Udvada (also spelled Udwada) in Gujarat on the west coast of India. Outside India, Yazd in Central Iran has the only other Atash Behram. Udvada, a small coastal village, of about 2 square kilometres (0.77 sq mi) area,[3] is on the southern coast of Gujarat." Surely it can't be on both the west and the southern coast?
 * West coast of India, southern coast of Gujarat state..♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:08, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I would copyedit the article and clean it up, but I can't do it if I'm unsure about basic facts. Since I know nothing about the topic I can't proceed, so I'll have to defer to Fram's knowledge that this does not meet the GA criteria, as I absolutely should not walk away from the first sentence in the body of a GA feeling confused about what it was talking about. How do you want to play this - relist everything and go for a topic ban? It's not the first time I've heard about serious problems with Nvv's work, although I know he's a nice guy and tries to help, he really does seem to be punching above his own weight. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  09:57, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Nvv is a lovely guy, yes, and works harder here than most. He has like 50 years experience with river management and has authored papers so would seem a competent professional, but I think a lot of the issues stem from reading and not being a native speaker. I mean could you imagine writing a professional quality article on here!! I couldn't! I don't mind him going for GAs but I am a bit worried as he's nommed half a dozen without being copyedited or checked by others. All I would ask Nvv is that you nominate no more than one or two articles at a time and ask one of us to check the work before it is nominated.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:02, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I have removed the GA status from the page. Fram (talk) 09:49, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I will not edit here for the next three weeks as I will be undergoing cataract surgery of both eyes tomarrow and day after. Nvvchar . 06:02, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

National edit-a-thon contest
A multilingual national-level edit-a-thon is being conducted at this moment with an aim to create or improve Punjab-related articles. A community that will create or expand the most number of articles during this edit-a-thon contest will be awarded a trophy during WikiConference India 2016. Best contributors' recognition may also be considered. We need your help here. Please join right now as a participant and help your community. Thanks and regards. --Tito Dutta (talk) 16:09, 3 July 2016 (UTC) Hope to see you at WP:PEAT from today. --Tito Dutta (talk) 09:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * as you will come to Chandigrah, it would be great if we can do something in this national-level contest. --Tito Dutta (talk) 16:08, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Reference errors on 6 July
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DYK for Michelle Tisseyre
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DYK for Bobbili Fort
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Discussion at Template:Did you know nominations/Catherine Hilda Duleep Singh
You are invited to join the discussion at Template:Did you know nominations/Catherine Hilda Duleep Singh. A user has left a comment at the discussion regarding the proposed hook. North America1000 13:40, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Catherine Hilda Duleep Singh
Hello, Nvvchar -- This is an interesting article. I have a few questions for you:

1) In the section Catherine Hilda Duleep Singh, right in the middle of the large paragraph, you have a sentence that ends:


 * Sophia was the most popular of them all as she was a well known suffragist.

I'm wondering about the phrase "the most popular of them all". It's not clear whether she was the most popular within her family or the most popular in England, or London. Also, the word "popular" can mean different things: most well liked or most well known. I think you probably mean "the most well known" of the three sisters. If you use that phrase, you don't have to specific within the family or in England/London.
 * Change to "the most well known of the three sisters"

2) The next sentence after that one is:


 * As Duleep Singh was working against the interests of the British empire and in favour of Indian independence, he moved to Paris, where he was involved in activities related to getting back his Sikh Empire and was therefore under "British intelligence surveillance".

I'm wondering why "British intelligence surveillance" is in quotation marks. The quotation marks would suggest either that it wasn't really British intelligence surveillance but something that looked or seemed like it, or that this is a direct quote from a source, but no source is given there. If it was really British intelligence surveillance, then you don't need the quotation marks.
 * Removed the quotation marks

3) The last sentence of that paragraph is:


 * Duleep Singh reconverted to Christianity to receive "royal reappropriation" which enabled his interment at Elveden Hall with "floral tributes from the Queen".

Here you say that Duleep Singh "reconverted to Christianity", but I don't recall reading anywhere that he left the Christian faith. (I did see something about his having doubts and becoming more interested in the Sikh faith in his own article, but I don't recall reading that he had renounced the Christian faith). Perhaps by "reconverted", you really mean renewing his conversion to Christianity, if there is such a phrase. Perhaps you might like to think about the best wording here. If you wish to keep the phrase as it is, you might consider mentioning his doubts (as described in his article): Although he had experienced a period of doubt about his Christian faith, he reconverted to Christianity...
 * I have changed the sentence structure excluding about reconversion. I hope it is ok with you

4) In the last sentence of the first paragraph of the section Catherine Hilda Duleep Singh, I had removed "Coalhatch" before "Hilden Hall" in  edit because it looked as if "Coaltech" had been spelled wrong and it didn't seem to belong before a phrase in quotes. If I was mistaken, please correct this.
 * Correction is fine, thanks

5) Late in the article you quote Catherine Duleep Singh's codicil to her will as mentioning "Princess Sophia Alexandrowna Duleep Singh", but in the Biography section she is called "Sophia Alexandra", and in her own WP article she is called "Princess Sophia Alexandra Duleep Singh". I'm wondering, did Catherine really write "Alexandrowna", which looks like Russian (like "Alexandrovna")? If it's in the source like that, all right, but it's weird.
 * Changed to Alexandra

Well, that's all. Best regards, – Corinne (talk) 17:29, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
 * . Thanks for the copy edit. In spite of restriction on my editing due to a cataract surgery I have tried to comply to your suggestions as it involved least time. I hope the changes made now are acceptable. Cheers. Nvvchar . 13:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Hello, Nvvchar -- I saw the note about your recent cataract surgery. Please take your time getting back into editing. I saw the changes you made; most are fine; you added a space in the middle of the word "daughters", but I can fix that. In  edit, I don't think you needed to add "her governess Lina" before Shafer. This information is given at the end of the second paragraph in the Biography section, just a few short paragraphs above this. Also, by the time she lived with Shafer in Europe, I'm sure Shafer was no longer her governess. Former governess, perhaps, but I don't think even that is necessary. I would just use "Shafer", or, if you really want to provide the information, "her former governess Lina Shafer".
 * As I am using this text for the DYK hook, I have changed it to "her former governess Lina Shafer". Nvvchar . 10:04, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


 * In  edit, you did what I suggested, changing "popular" to "most well known", but now that I see it, I realize that many editors seem to prefer "best known" to "most well known". (I kind of like "most well known", but I've seen it changed to "best known".) I'm going to copy the sentence the way it is now for easy reference:


 * Sophia was the most well known of the three sisters as she was a well known suffragist.


 * But there is another problem, and that is that "well known" is used again in the same sentence. So, I think the sentence needs re-wording. Perhaps:


 * Sophia was the best known of the three sisters as she was an active suffragist, or
 * I have used this version. Nvvchar . 10:04, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As an active suffragist, Sophia was the best known of the three sisters. – Corinne (talk) 02:35, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the suggestions. I have accepted your versions as indicated above. Nvvchar . 10:04, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Warangal Fort

 * Thanks for the copy edits. Nvvchar . 13:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

DYK for Children's Museum, Siri Fort
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DYK for Fenugreek production in India
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Wishing you a speedy recovery
I just noticed your note that you had cataract surgery recently. I haven't been editing as much during the summer and am sorry I did not see the note sooner. Hope that you have a speedy recovery and that the procedure was successful. SusunW (talk) 14:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much . I have recovered faster than expected. Temporary reading lens has been prescribed. Hope to get the final all clear by next week with a new lens. I have started editing for short periods now Nvvchar . 14:38, 20 July 2016 (UTC).

DYK for Daisy Earles
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Punjab edit-a-thon extends till 6 August
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Your GA nomination of Sophia Duleep Singh
The article Sophia Duleep Singh you nominated as a good article has passed ; see Talk:Sophia Duleep Singh for comments about the article. Well done! If the article has not already been on the main page as an "In the news" or "Did you know" item, you can nominate it to appear in Did you know. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As requested, the notification that your nominated article has passed the GA assessment. Excellent work and it's rapid progress can be attributed to your quick response and the nomination of an already well written article. Good luck with getting more articles up to the GA standard and possibly beyond. Mr rnddude (talk) 12:00, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . Nvvchar . 12:49, 31 July 2016 (UTC)