User:Nzd/West Ham notes

Call with John Powles, 16 January 2018

 * Old Castle Swifts:

No ref for 'The Castles' as a nickname✅

Pay to play/suplemented wages - definately the case? As sure as we can be..✅

Not sure about the claret socks but kit OK otherwise.[I'm still struggling to find a reliable source for this. A KUMB article mentions a newspaper report so I am talking to Graeme Howlett about locating it]✅ [..in as much as I'm admitting defeat. Graeme didn't have details of the newspaper report and Grant Hole, who did much of the research for KUMB is no longer contactable. I have, citing the two articles I could find, and dropped a note on the talk page]


 * Thames Ironworks:

Didn't use shirt numbers back then (not until 1930s).

Belton's West Ham kit 'story': Unlikely. Other sources don't corroborate and some contradict, but we'll probably never know the truth. [Myths and Legends article added as ref to statement that this is disputed]

Clarification/timeline on colours needed. [Quote from Syd King at http://theyflysohigh.co.uk/liverpudlian-chairman-of-whu/4579464683 - The team initially played in full dark blue kits, as inspired by Mr. Hills, who had been an Oxford University “Blue”, but changed the following season by adopting the sky blue shirts and white shorts combination worn through 1897 to 1899]

West Ham Charity Cup - this was a first-team comp so records should be included [I've identified some inaccuracies on that page, e.g. the competition ran until at least 1929-30]

London League - WH didn't use this for reserves. It was used by FL clubs as a reserve comp from around 1898-99. WH competed in it until 1903-04 and fielded first-teamers throughout.


 * Hermit Road:

On "disused grounds of london" site. coords don't look to be right as the ground was probably on the other side of the road (not where Memorial Park is now) - two letters in old programmes suggest it bordered Ladysmith Road (footnote p32). John's research on this is ongoing in terms of absolute confirmation.✅

Billy Barnes: prev club - South West Ham [queried on follow-up - p20/p24][John to research]✅
 * 1895-96:

William Chamberlain: should be Fred Chamberlain✅

George Neil: prev clubs Millwall & West Norwood [follow-up question about guest apps][ Create new article with prev clubs and guest info Article exists at George Neill; spelling varies in sources but a single 'l' appears correct, following up][note to be added to 1896-97 app once London Leage stats are added]

Patterson: TIW Employee [confirm source]✅

1-1 first game✅

Floodlit games: "amount of notoriety" - debatable, needs clarification/expansion as there were issues. [need to copy Hermit Road edits to main article to clarify that there were previous floodlit games against local sides]

George Gresham was TIW employee and was there from the start of the season✅


 * 1896–97:

"eviction" not really accurate, expand on trial and also the issue of costs (pp32-34)

Dandridge - FN Frank, prev club Reading [confirm whether also a TIW employee]✅

Stevenson, captained arsenal for only 1 game [I've e-mailed Arseweb to see if they can shed any light]✅ [Expanded article. The Arsenal match appears to be the first of the 1894-95 season but sources don't definitively confirm this]

London League apps for all players should be included in table

London League apps for all players should be included in table
 * 1897–98

Alf Hitch, prev club Walsall (one of the first professional players) [query, Joyce has him at Wellington Town between Walsall & TIW]✅
 * 1898–99


 * History of WH:

"In 1896, the team were evicted from their ground after the council revoked their groundrent and as a result spent over a year playing their home games on the home grounds of other local sides including those of Milwall and Tottenham" - Incorrect - never played at Millwall or Tottenham✅

Francis Payne - club secretary/football club secretary: "In 1898, Francis Payne had been given a sum of £1,000" - should be 1899 (tapping up controversy at the same time) Miscellany shows George Neil as Club Sec in 1899-1900, but Essential History (p24) describes "football club secretary Francis Payne" strenghening the team. EssHist is wrong about this. Payne didn't sign those players, Neil did.✅

David Lloyd had already been with the club a year (signed 1898-99)✅

1899–1903 kit wrong - 04-05 - start of "villa" kit✅ [changed to 1903, per theyflysohigh]


 * whufc main:

origins - syd king wasn't manager until 1902, Lew Bowen was "Secretary/Manager" from 1900-1902, joining mid-season (Irons of the South, p15)✅

crest - castle added much later (prob 1977-78). Castle never included on handbooks of the time and certainly not on shirts. [verified by https://www.whufc.com/news/articles/2017/june/29-june/west-ham-united-crest-through-years][1978-79 Handbook states first used on badge in 1968, but a drawing of the turrets was used on programmes earlier. John researching further]

colours (per prev discussion), Steve Marsh has a good page on this [at http://theyflysohigh.co.uk/playing-kit-1900-1999/4547927422]

WH treated this as a first team comp between 1901-02 to 1908-09 (IOTS, p53. Final tables in appendix). Line-ups/appearance stats are not available [I'm having ongoing discussions with Steve about this]
 * Western League

Comments
If you don't mind, thought I would add to the bottom. For "eviction" is probably my liberal interpretation of the event. Other amendments on West Ham history, happy for the clarifications. Regarding kit, looks like historical kits have updated their early kit images now but unfortunately are now circularly referencing Wikipedia, the change to the "Villa" kit seems agreed to be pushed back to 1904. They also have images of the badges from the various era's, showing 1964 is the first appearance of the modern castle on the FA Cup shirt. However there was, in a source I will have to re-find, an older badge showing a castle above the Hammers. They Fly So High has identified at least some of these as "Blazer Badge", plus some other associated mentions of the addition of a castle in the early 50's to promotional material. Koncorde (talk) 14:48, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'm due to speak to John again tomorrow so we'll see if he's got any further clarifications re: crests, etc. I'm planning to rewrite the bit on the TIW page about kits and colours, and also expand on the move from the Memorial Grounds, so we can then summarise those bits on other pages. Anything else, give me a shout. Nzd   (talk)  16:09, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

Follow-ups and responses (via e-mail and call on 23 January 2018)
According to pages 20 and 24 of IITB, Barnes was technically a South West Ham player when he played for us in the WH Charity Cup Final.
 * John confirmed.✅

I've now changed from Wiliam Chamberlain to Fred. We currently have him with a previous club of Old Castle Swifts, but I can't see where this is referenced from. He isn't listed on the OCS page as a known player.
 * Remove, TIW employee.✅

WestHamStats reports George Neil actually signed for TIW in 1897 and was allowed to play for us while still a West Norwood player. Can I assume the signing was at the beginning of the 1897-98 season and appearances before that were 'guest' apps?
 * Correct✅

Patterson (single game 18 April 1896): can't find ref for him as an Ironworks employee in IITB,
 * Committe member, Ref Steve's site.✅

Alf Hitch: Joyce has him at Wellington Town between Walsall & TIW
 * Fine✅ [Created article]

Frank Dandridge: I've changed this. The para in IITB p31 "For the 19856/97 season ... Edward Hatton from Reading along with Frank Dandridge and Peter Davie". Can I take that to mean that all three players were signed from Reading at the same time? Frank Dandridge: We had 'TIW employee' previously. Was that not the case?
 * Correct✅
 * Not sure, probably as a lot did end up working for TIW [I'll remove this]✅

Competition requirements were that only local players were eligible to play✅
 * West Ham Charity Cup

Barnabas French✅
 * 1895-96 (full names):[I'm currently indexing IITB so I can see which of these are sourceable through the book and where I need to go back to John]

Colin Stares✅

James Fitzjohn [initial only found in IITB]

Harry Rossiter [initial only found in IITB]

Henry Tull✅

Jamie Lyndsay - also previously played for Millwall✅

There could be an issue with the photo of George Sage. John now thinks this is Fred Chamberlain (i.e. the two are the wrong way round). [I need to follow up on this wrt sourcing as the original lineup of the first group photo came from IITB and has been widely reproduced] [The photo lineup has now been updated at http://www.whu-programmes.co.uk/season-1895-96/4551432917. Changes made: Chamberlain -> Unknown, Sage -> Chamberlain, Chapman -> Sage]✅ [Image removed. John is going to write an article about this and update some other bits from IITB, so I'll wait for that before adding a new photo]

Richard Bird✅
 * 1896–97 (full names):

A Southwood [surname only found in IITB]

1897–98 Fred Chalkley - Previous club should be Park Grove F.C.✅

Richard Hounsell✅[changed to Robert. Assume an error on my part as it says Robert in the book]
 * 1898–99 (full names):

Richard Bird✅

Henry Gilmore✅

1899–1900 (full names): Henry Gilmore✅

programmes: 1967-68 crossed hammers 1968-69 - first with castle
 * Crests

castle on shirts fa cup final '64 an exception, then went back to just crossed hammers [I think this is all represented in Steve's article, the one on the OS and the handbook article sent by John. Need to work out how to summarise that information so it's not too long]

(FYI )