User:PamD/Sandbox

Request for Comment on sorting of UK churches in categories in English Wikipedia
How should UK churches be sorted in categories in en.wiki? For background, including links to previous inconclusive discussions, please see the section above. Note that articles on UK churches have a wide variety of title formats. Consider St Chad's Church, Far Headingley, but also St Mark's Church, Woodhouse, Leeds, Church of St Thomas the Apostle, Killinghall, Parish church of St Giles, St Giles in the Wood, Bethel Chapel, Ynysybwl, Lenton Methodist Church,  The Holy Sepulchre, Northampton, Church of Christ the King, Bloomsbury, Mount St Mary's Church, Leeds, Leeds Minster. (It is of course possible that some of these should have other article titles).

The practice of expanding "St" or "St." to "Saint" is mandated by WP:SORTKEY and appears uncontroversial, so "Sort by article title" or similar, in this RfC, can be taken to mean "Sort by title with "St" expanded to "Saint" (and with a leading "The" removed in rare cases)".

The only existing guidance on sortkeys appears to be that at WP:SORTKEY, which includes the option that "Systematic sort keys are also used in other categories where the logical sort order is not alphabetical (for example, individual month articles in year categories such as Category:2004 use sort keys like "*2004-04" for April). Again, such systems must be used consistently within a category.". There is no one Wikiproject dedicated to UK churches, though they come within the interests of many Wikiprojects: Christianity and its denominational subprojects; Architecture; United Kingdom; and UK geography and its country, county or regional subprojects. Categories is also relevant. There seems no obvious place to record the consensus with which this RfC will close, but an archived RfC lodged in the wiki-memory of a variety of editors will be useful. If agreement can be reached, we can (a) move towards consistent sorting within categories and (b) avoid conflict between editors and time wasted in changing DEFAULTSORTs.

Discussion
Please express your preference within each of the three groups of options below:

1: How should UK church articles sort in "UK church" categories (where all or almost all of the entries are UK churches), eg Category:Grade II* listed churches in West Yorkshire?
 * 1A: By article title, eg "Saint Chad's Church, Far Headingley"
 * 1B: By location, eg "Far Headingley, Saint Chad's Church"
 * 1C: By dedication, eg "Chad, Far Headingley"

2: How should UK church articles sort in other categories, eg Category:Headingley?
 * 2A: By article title, eg "Saint Chad's Church, Far Headingley"
 * 2B: By location, eg "Far Headingley, Saint Chad's Church"
 * 2C: By dedication, eg "Chad, Far Headingley"

3: What should the DEFAULTSORT be for a UK church article
 * 3A: By article title, eg "Saint Chad's Church, Far Headingley"
 * 3B: By location, eg "Far Headingley, Saint Chad's Church"
 * 3C: By dedication, eg "Chad, Far Headingley"

Quick ref

 * Glossary
 * User:John_Broughton/Editor%27s_Index_to_Wikipedia
 * WikiProject_Stub_sorting/Stub_types
 * Template_messages
 * Template messages/User talk namespace
 * Browse
 * WikiProject_Geographical_coordinates

Boilerplate

 * First user comment for stubsorting:

Adding stub tags where there's already a categorised stub tag

Hi, Please don't add stub to articles like xxxxx when they already have categorised stub tags - it just wastes the time of people at WP:STUBSORT. If you feel the article needs expanding, Wikifying, etc there are plenty of other templates you can use. Thanks, ~


 * Second user comment:

Adding stub tags to non-stub article Hi, Please don't add stub to articles like xxxxxx which are substantially more than a stub article (described at WP:STUB as "A stub is an article containing only a few sentences of text" ) - it just wastes the time of people at WP:STUBSORT. If you feel the article needs expanding, Wikifying, etc there are plenty of other templates you can use. Thanks, ~

== Stub tags at end, please==
 * Third user comment:

Hi, Please add stub tags at the end of articles, not at the beginning as you did for xxxxx - it makes life easier for people doing stub-sorting. See WP:STUB which says "By convention this is placed at the end of the article, after the External links section, any navigation templates, and the category tags, so that the stub category will appear last." Thanks, ~


 * To include in some dab pages:

;See also

*


 * Biographical data: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:PERSONDATA
 * Basic stub label is
 * Format for web references:
 * CAT:INFOBOX to see available infoboxes
 * to put table of contents at right
 * * - example of template use
 * class="wikitable sortable" - for sortable tables
 * 6 mi = 6 mi
 * Template messages/Sources of articles - includes citation templates
 * Multicol template info


 * Cite Book template:


 * Cite web template:


 * The Calf sort key for entry in sortable table

Dabs and redirects

 * Template_messages/General
 * WP:hatnote re disambiguation notes
 * Redirect_templates
 * Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)
 * Suggestions for name disambiguation project to fill idle moments


 * Airport disambig for airports – Category:Airport disambiguation pages
 * Disambig-plants for common names of plants – Category:Plant common names
 * Geodis for place names – Category:Place name disambiguation pages
 * Hndis for people's names – Category:Human name disambiguation pages
 * Hndis-cleanup
 * Hospitaldis for hospitals or medical centers – Category:Hospital disambiguation pages
 * Mathdab for mathematics titles – Category:Mathematical disambiguation
 * Mountainindex for mountain names – Category:Set index articles on mountains
 * Numberdis for numbers – Category:Lists of ambiguous numbers
 * Roaddis for roads, streets, or highways – Category:Lists of roads sharing the same title
 * Schooldis for educational institutions – Category:Educational institution disambiguation pages
 * Shipindex for ship names – Category:Set index articles on ships
 * SIA for set index articles

Parameters
If a general dab page includes more than one item in any of the above classes, then disambig should still be used, but parameters can be added in order to place the page additionally into the above categories. Parameters are as follows (they may also be combined, in any order):
 * for Category:Human name disambiguation pages
 * for Category:Surnames
 * Category:Given names
 * for Category:Place name disambiguation pages
 * : for Category:Disambiguation lists of mountains
 * for Category:Airport disambiguation pages
 * for Category:Hospital disambiguation pages
 * for Category:Lists of roads sharing the same title
 * for Category:Educational institution disambiguation pages
 * for Category:Mathematical disambiguation
 * for Category:Lists of ambiguous numbers
 * for Category:Plant common names

Interesting

 * Biographies of living people WP:BLP Biographies of living people
 * Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles
 * Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page
 * WikiProject Red Link Recovery
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Allpages/x all pages starting with x


 * WP page history statistics

Standard order of end sections
Works (ie publications by subject of article)

See also

Notes

References

Further reading

External links

Succession boxes or Nav boxes

Categories

Stub templates

Interwiki links

Typo work
Starting again, inspired by :
 * "is been": 16:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "should of": 16:26, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "could of": 16:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "would of": only a couple of typos, rather than misuses, to fix- far fewer mistakes than I'd expected 16:44, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "of been": a few changes; next time add "sort of been" and "kind of been" to exclusions. 16:53, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "must of" - quite a lot of intended "most of". 17:07, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * "are been" 18:06, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Older
WP:TYPO
 * is been - done again 08:32, 5 September 2009 (UTC) - done again 23:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "is been" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * was been - done again 16:12, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (2 OK) - 13:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "was been" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * are been 16:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (1 OK), 14:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "are been" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * were been - 16:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)(6 OK), 14:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "were been" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * could of - 16:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (23 OK - "as much as he could of his father's property" etc)
 * "could of" -intitle:User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from -could-of-necessity -could-of-course -could-of-the site:en.wikipedia.org


 * would of - 17:07, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (12 OK), 14:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "would of" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from -would-of-necessity -would-of-course site:en.wikipedia.org -would-of-itself -would-of-himself -would-of-herself -sic


 * might of 17:13, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (58 OK - "the great might of..." etc), 14:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "might of" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from -the-might -might-of-course -combined-might -military-might -armoured-might -might-of-the -full-might -expanding-might site:en.wikipedia.org


 * should of 17:20, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (6 OK, 2 queried), 14:20, 6 March 2008 (UTC) - again 23:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "should of" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from -should-of-necessity -should-of-course site:en.wikipedia.org


 * must of 17:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (16 OK - grape must etc)
 * "must of" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from -must-of-necessity -must-of-course site:en.wikipedia.org

All done, 09:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "of been" done, 23:28, 6 January 2008 (UTC); 17:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (21 OK)
 * "of been" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * "to of" done 14:04, 9 January 2008 (UTC); 18:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (100+ OK - possibly not worthwhile looking, except for the common "due to of")
 * "to of" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * "has went" done 13:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC), 18:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (1 OK)
 * "has went" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * "had went" done 17:48, 14 January 2008 (UTC), 18:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (10 OK)
 * "had went" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org


 * "be been"] done 14:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC), 18:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC) (5 OK)
 * "be been" -inurl:wiki-User -intitle:Talk -inurl:wiki-Wikipedia -inurl:wiki-WP -redirected-from site:en.wikipedia.org

All done again, using AWB, PamD (talk) 15:51, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Progress
All done, except "to of" and "might of", PamD (talk) 10:06, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

"would of" PamD (talk) 14:30, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

All ("might of" not worthwhile - none found to change) PamD (talk) 12:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

"is been" and "was been" PamD (talk) 15:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

New comment to use: PamD (talk) 11:22, 20 July 2008 (UTC): Done: all except "to of", and comment added to cases where it's OK. "is been" done PamD (talk) 08:17, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * is been [sic] - done, 27 may 2015 - inspired by Giraffedata, it's time I did a bit more of this.


 * shoul - even better template. "should of " and "would of " done. 27 may 2015

To think about writing/doing
Leeds - revise/reduce Transport section

Holy Trinity, St John's, Mill Hill Chapel, Adel church?

Leeds Town Hall - expand. Pevsner etc. Get to GA eventually?

More re St Aidans mosaic

Grade I listed buildings in Leeds not in WP: Bardsey parish church, St Oswalds church Garforth, Holy Trinity, St Mary Whitkirk, St George (Gt George Street), Temple Mill (in WP as Temple Works, no redirect), St Oswalds church Guiseley

Henry Dorling

expand stubs created to resolve red links from Leeds Country Way:
 * Golden Acre Park
 * Meanwood Valley Trail
 * Ebor Way
 * Wike
 * Mickletown
 * Woodkirk
 * Cockersdale

Upgrade Temple Newsam - aim at GA? FA???

Upgrade Roundhay Park?

Format user page

Karl J / Armed Man - tidy, add re Armouries

List of long distance paths in UK - upgrade

Farmer & Brindley, architectural sculptors

User:Dsp13

infobox UK place
Metro county example

Arbcom's restriction on EC is over-wide
The restriction on EC's editing was drawn so widely that it leaves scope for sanctions which are within the letter of the law but not, I suggest, within the spirit of what the sanctions hoped to achieve. As a parallel, the BBC Radio 4 game show Just a Minute requires speakers to avoid "Hesitation, Deviation or Repetition", so that technically the words "The trouble with Wikipedia is the way ..." would be sanctionable, in the game, as repeating the word "the". In the interests of the flow, and entertainment value, of the show, there is a recognition that "that sort of repetition doesn't count". A restriction allowing an admin to interpret EC's self-defence comments as worthy of a month's block is over-tightly drawn. ArbCom should consider revising its sanctions on EC; failing this, any blocks under these very wide sanctions should be decided on by a wider group than a single admin.

EC's behaviour is not the main problem affecting women editors
My first encounter with EC, under his previous username, was a civilised to-and-fro discussion at the end of which he "came round to my way of thinking". I have never had any problems in interactions with him - and yes, I am female.

I was horrified to read GorillaWarfare's account of the unforgiveable way she has been harassed on- and off-wiki as an female editor, admin and arb. That sort of thing is a real and serious problem in the encyclopedia and needs to be investigated and stopped, with all the energies of ArbCom, WMF, or whoever.

EC's use of a word which Americans apparently find highly offensive was a problem in the past. His comments in a banned topic area, but in self-defence, on a page which is traditionally a free-for-all, are not a serious problem, except in so far as the over-wide restriction on him has allowed the instiguation of the huge waste of time and energy we see around us, occupying editors' time when they could be building the encyclopedia.

Language use and anatomical terms
My reading of the infamous EC quote is "Anyone who doesn't want to be called an obnoxious fool should not behave like an obnoxious fool." Not aimed at anyone except the generality of obnoxious fools, of any gender.

Note too that while the word he used is a word for female anatomy, we also commonly use "Cock-up" and "Balls-up" to mean, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, "A blunder, a mistake, a confused situation." and "A fiasco, a disaster; a mess, a muddle." respectively, and to the best of my knowledge both "cock" and "balls" in these terms are used in their sense which refers to male anatomy. Pam D  22:22, 1 November 2015 (UTC)