User:Perfectblue97/KP

Kim Possible

 * Uh...I'm not sure who the editor was talking too, since you can't hear the person on the other line. I guess all it establishes is that the principle is a woman. =)   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 21:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah...the editor is probably talking to a student.   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 07:03, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Kim Possible Canon
Greetings, PB97. this is in regards to edits to Shego's page on 1/21 or 1/22. A few questions, if you would be so kind: Where is this "canon" for KP? Who's to judge? Does saying that Shego is "jealous" instead of simply "contemptuous" violate this canon? Is it okay to have some leeway in terms of profiling these characters? I hope so, or else Wikipedia itself wouldn't be a user-edited system, it would be just an encyclopedia. Sorry, and thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.185.76.5 (talk) 08:57, 22 January 2007 (UTC).

KP Cannon - response to message on my talk page from unregistered user
I'm not certain where to answer this, so I'll put it under your initial question and on the talk page.

There have been a lot of arguments over fictional character over the years, particularly with users reading different things into a character based on their own experiences or cultural background (for example, a user empathizes with a character because they come from a similar background or have had a similar experience in life, or a user setting against a character for similar reasons). In order to keep this to a minimum, and to ensure a uniform approach etc, Wikipedia came up with some basic rules and guidelines about cannon, in universe descriptions and other elements (Most of which are not really at issue here).

Put simply, there is some leeway, at least compared to writing about history or science, but it's quite small. In the simplest terms, we must stick to cannon - what is depicted in a KP comic book, episode, or game. However, we must be very very careful to stick to limitations of the script (my main issue with your edits) and not to read ahead any further.

For example on Bonnie's page you said that her attitude was setting her up for bad relationships in the future. This might be true in real life, given her personality type, but unless there is an episode that shows her future self in a bad relationship, you can't say it. You also said that her sisters might treat her mean because she was the youngest child and they were envious of the attention that their mother lavished on her. It might be true in real life, but unless Lonnie says something like "I hate the way mom always pays attention to you just because you're the youngest", then what you've said is supposition rather than cannon and cannot be used

In short, something has to be said more or less directly in the script for us to write it in a character profile. If shego says "I wish I were more like Kim", or "Kim is always showing me up", then the writers have purposefully established her as being envious of Kim or her skills. If they don't then you can't simply look at her actions and say that they are indicative of envy.

I know, it's frustrating. If it helps, you should try not to think of this as a book report or a psychological case study, and more as an exercise in transcription.

We're here to report on what is most blatant on screen. Not to look deeper, not to come up with hypothesis, and not to suggest why something is the way that it is unless it is stated clearly though dialog etc.

Take a quick look at Manual of Style (writing about fiction) and Fancruft for ideas, and then explore the links.

Peace

perfectblue 10:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

KP Canon - I concede
I see what you are saying PB97. You presented your case quite elegantly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.185.76.5 (talk) 16:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC).


 * It's nothing personal, I don't mean to dampen your enthusiasm. I often find myself wanting to go deeper too.


 * perfectblue 17:11, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! I don't know how these response things work, so... But don't think that I am an amateur in profiling violence. I'm somewhat convinced that KP has unresolved anger issues relating to a very very deep fear inside herself that she may be incompetent. Also, nobody is born a violent person-- you can only be made a sociopath like Bonnie or someone with adult anti-social personality disorder like Shego through "years of systematic abuse" to quote Hannibal Lecter. I'm almost as convinced of this as I am that you are a young (under 20) agnostic living in New England (or some such blue state), maybe brought up on stories of Chinese mythology from your father and taught to be an avid reader and a kind young man by your grandparents (or someone else who had a large impact on your life), PB97. Sorry if I went on too long-- and I'm sorry I like profiling so much. My ideas on KP can only be as creepily accurate as the profile I just posted above.


 * I think that you're reading a little too far ahead again. You're probably right about Bonnie, though you can't really it like that (you can hint though) because of rules about sticking to cannon (you can say that her sisters bullied her one episode, but you can't really push too far beyond that), but it has already been stated why Shego went to the dark side, and it wasn't abuse. She got fed up with her over eager goody-two-shoes brothers and felt that being the bad guy was less restrictive and more exciting (Shego likes being the 'bad girl').


 * Unfortunately, while you can nail Bonnie, your profile of me is way off. I wrote my personal profile based on the style and expectations of the audience who are most likely to read it, rather than on my own style. I don't really ahve anything to hide, so I can tell you that I might be editing a kid's cartoon, but I'm much older than you might think (old enough to have kids who are old enough to watch Kim Possible in fact). I was also raised many thousands of miles away from New England (or any blue state for that matter), and my Chinese connection comes from living in central China rather than cultural hand-me-downs. Nice try, anyway.


 * perfectblue 07:56, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

KP episodes
Thank you soooo much for creating pages for the Kim Possible episodes. You and User:DanTD have been creating pages for the episodes...so I look forward to seeing more. Have fun editing! =)   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 04:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Disambig
Thanxs for going out of your way to disambiguate the KP episodes. However, there is no need to disambiguate a page if no other pages are of the same name. Only episodes like "Crush" needs to be labeled as "Crush (Kim Possible)", since there are other pages named "Crush". =)   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 09:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh...I see. Sorry about that!  I'm really embarrassed about that. It might be a good idea to move the page to simply "Kimitation Nation", since no other page is also named that.  Thanxs for creating a such an extensive page for the episode and sorry again for the misunderstanding.  ^_^    Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 10:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanxs again!
I wanted to stop by and thank you again for creating most of the episode pages for KP. They're all very well written pages and I congratulate you for taking the initiative to actually go out of your way to write the pages. Have fun editing! =D   Jumping cheese   Cont @ct 04:22, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Deletion of those long article discussions
Sooner or later those article discussions in the character Ron Stoppable and Kim Possible page will become useless(if not they already are), they are perhaps now obsolete since their topics have been solved concerning the article.

I suggest their deletion as they are there without purpose.

If you agree with this, would you delete them or could I delete them?

Thorius Maximus 18:52, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, yeah they do, yet...doesn't the article move on? The issues we've discussed have indeed been resolved yet, what I mean is that if someone reads the page it will only see the article(despite some seeing te discussion page). What I'm trying to say is that the article goes on, and other issues may be discussed in the future, thus making the discussion page bigger and bigger. And what about the warning in the upper section about the discussion page being HUGE? That's why I'm saying that in my opinion perhaps we should cut those large discussions that perhaps do make the page uncessarely long? I'm not completely certain about any of this stuff.

Thorius Maximus 20:32, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The Name "Zorpox The Conqueror
Although Wade did reveal the name of the villain who used that suit as being "Zorpox The Conqueror", this name was not used by anyone nor did Ron called himself by that, in his own view he was just Ron, but now evil. Al the other character never called him that, each character used their own names, Kim called him Ron, Shego called him the buffon, Wade called him Ron, Drakken called him "your friend" or "him".

Zorpox The Conqueror is a fan made name, yet I understand the why this name should be used in the "evil Ron" page. But, I think that, because of cannon issues and of also accuracy, perhaps we should put some kind of note in the end or something like that and perhaps we should write in the beginning the words Evil Ron(Zorpox The Conqueror).

I know Zorpox The Conqueror is "the most used description", yet I think we should put a side note because of cannon accuracy and article quality.

What do you think of this?

Thorius Maximus 15:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The first one is understandable.

The second still is a matter of interpretation and I'll briefly point the ideas in this one.

Ron may have indeed used to suit in order to indentify himself with Zorpox, however, he may just used the suit because he thought it gave him a bad boy look, and that it was cool.

If Ron had used the suit to indentify himself as Zorpox The Conqueror, then besides from dressing like him, he would also have to call himself Zorpox or give a verbal indication, and this is would have been extremely likely to ahve happened due to Ron's excentric behaviour. However, if he does not mention any self proclamation, then it is most likely that he did not identify himself has Zorpox The Conqueror, and only used the suit in order to have "his own unique identity", however, this indentity could very well he his own style, not Zorpox's, for Ron could have meerely just used the suit to give him his unique identity, not the identity of Zorpox.

Technicaly since there isn't an accurate indication of Ron adopting the identity of Zorpox, we have to be careful on how we should describe things.

I do understand your statement and the reason, as it is perfectly logical, however, we do not have any definite indication of this, thus unfortunately it is an assumption. If Ron had stated himself as Zorpox if even just once and even if it had been in an indirect way, then I would agree that it had to be writen down the fact that Ron adopted the identity of Zorpox The Conqueror, however, we do not have these indication, thus perhaps the most accurate view on why Ron would have used that suit was simply because to give him a villain look and a "bad boy" look, and a tthe same time giving a distinctive identity from that of the other villains, but not the identity of Zorpox The Conqueror.

I agree that the article should say as it is because of orientation issues, however, since Ron nor any other character, has used the word Zorpox, not have given any indicaion or identifying him nor Ron himself as Zorpox(since by just justifying through the use of the suit is a very flawed assumption) then as a consequence it's my opinion that we should put things as they are yet in the end of the article or in the beginning we should put a little side note, all this for the sake of accuracy and for a non assumptive point of view.

I hope you undersatnd my point of view on this, just like as I understand yours, and that's why I agree to the fact that the name should continue to be used and the article unmodified, with the exception of this little side note, so that the reader can have a more accurate view of things.

Thorius Maximus 00:51, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I can bet 20 bucks that I can justify the why :P :

If Ron called himself Zorpox, then he porbably would have had to say, "I'm Zorpox The Conqueror!", and, when Kim called him "Ron", evil Ron should have said "I'm not Ron, I'm Zorpox The Conqueror!, all this becaue of his wish to indentify himself as Zorpox.

When Ron calls himself I or me, he means his real name, since he does not say he's Zorpox The Conqueror (thus we have no cannon indication) then we can't put the possibility that the I or Me are refering to Zorpox since it would be complete speculation, since we don't have the indications. And since we don't have the indications, then he only way out for us to interpret this I and Me, is by saying he's refering the his usual self, his real name "Ron", since this is the only alternative we have.

Conclusion, speculation. :) But again I say, I agree that the article should stay exactly as it is, but with a small note, either in the end or in the beginning.

Now where's my 20 bucks? :P

By the way, they've started t oput those very speciffic details about Ron in the page again, about the high running capability, bla bla bla in the short form above the character picture and that's going to speciffic, and there's already a trivia point concerning it in the end. Should you delete this, or should I do it?

It's too speciffic, and it's a lot of detail for such a minor characteristic.

Thorius Maximus 16:26, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Understood, and I think you have indeed told me that before, thus I'll just add that to my list of reasons, however, should we deleted this part? It is giving to much attention to just a small detail and since there are endless details about Ron, the max we could do about this is just leave a quick reference or we just leave it in the trivia section.

What word could we use to substitute "high running capability"? A high stamina? A long term running resistance at a high speed?

You will notice Kim and Ron have their physical specialties. Kim seems to be better at short time leg efforts, thus the parial reason for her being good at acrobatics but this also comes from frequent exercise. On the other hand, Ron seems t obe to run at a very high speed for a long time without getting that tired, this is the application of a muscular effort for a long time, without becoming significantly tired.

Another side note(and I'm just putting all these ussies in the same section as not to create other section unecessarely).

The Ron factor was indeed presented in StD. The first occasion was when saving the toy maker(a classical example of it), the second was when knocking Sumo Ninja accidentaly. THe Ron factor isn't a main plot aproach in StD, however it showed up in some occasions, are these occasions enough for the Ron Factor to the mentioned in StD?

By the way, I disagree with what was written, because it was not the Ron factor that made Drakken fail, but it was team work of the team. Drakken may have not add put Ron out of the equasion(and he seems to have indeed not added), however it is true that without his influence as a sidekick and a friend that made the difference, not the factor per se as the Ron Factor is shown under a different point of view and under a distinctive situation and these situations only appeared during those two times in the movie. Thorius Maximus 19:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"Kim would need high levels of both aerobic and anaerobic fitness in order to do what she does." I think she would need more the high anaerobis fitness, technically because most of her efforts(fighting and jumping) is momentaneous thus for a short time and despite being several efforts, these efforts are seperated from one another, with frequent pauses, sometimes there can be some long pauses to. That's why I think it's more the Anaerobic training she needs, although she wouls also need aerobic, yet not as much as Ron, for the time lengh of her efforts is mostly relatively short.

"Having trained in martial arts myself, I can personally tell you that no ordinary human could possibly keep up Kim's pace 9even a pro athlete would be completely out of breath and sweating buckets). It would require an inhuman level of stamina. The only real people who come close to her level of fitness are Shaolin monks, and they use Qi to do it."

Yeah, but we simly don't state this in reality. What exists in the series we adapt to reality and vice-versa. Kim's movements in the series do not mean an things besides from she being very athletic and skilled in martial arts, for there are also several other character that do this, Hirotaka, Shego, Yori, heck even Ron in the Twin Factor Scenne, for that scenne would require an almost inhuman quickness of thinking under a situation which to worse things against him is very stressful.

We simply ignore any comparisons with reality and draw a standard analysis procedure for the series. Kim's efforts are equivalent to Shego's, Horitaka's(and she had some difficulty in keeping up with his attacking speed), Yori's etc. The jumps Kim does, are the same as Yori's and Shego's, in some cases it's like a trademark of the series, what Kim jumps is the equivalent of an athletic jump in our reality. The "appearance" of the jump is meerely because of the entertainement factor, and the relative "freedom" the creators have when stating the rules of the universe, besides, there are lot ofo ther physical activities made by other characters in the show that are simply superhuman.

Thorius Maximus 00:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

In short: Kim is the equivalent of an athlete in our world. Any "exagerations" are to be ignored and to be considered the equivalent of an acrobatic jump. In reality, some of their jumps are impossible, yet their world it is the same as a normal jump. And that's why I said about the flexibility the creators have with cartoons. it's just for the entertainement factor and doesn't count as factual besides from the fact that is a normal acrobatic jumps, although in our world it would be the equivalent of a superhuman jump.

We can't say much about Shego's powers. She seems to have more or less the same strength and speed as Kim(and she has made higher jumps than Kim has). But from what we know, her powers seem to give a quick healting and the plasma. We can't state nothing more because of the nature of the series.

Thorius Maximus 14:01, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Did Shego use her plasma during that situation, if so then it is justified.

Despite Kim having a much intense training(which she has), we have never seen Kim actually being able to run as good as Ron, and by the way, in the ep "A New Ron", we see her getting tired after running from the spinning tops of doom, technocally it was mostly running although there were also jumping scennes.

But I'll be honest, if Kim wanted to play as the runnig back in ther team, she wouldn't be able to run as fast as Ron nor be able to sustain the muscular effort/pressure that long and under that intensity of effort. You will notice Ron ran at a speed superior to all the other players(and they have running practice) without slowing down and at the end he as not even tired. Another scenne as in the Big Job, when Ron ran from all traps at a speed impossible for a human being and so far I can not compare him with Kim under a situation like this because I have never seen Kim under a situation such as this, however perhaps it's not far from the truth to say he runs better than Kim, however he has not done any acrobatics at the same level as Kim.

Yet, let us not forget they traded bodies accidentaly and Kim was able to do everything she did before while in Ron's body(this has a number of reasons such as self confidence, experience, and of course the physical ability itself). That's why in order to give a balanced and fair opinion to balance both sides, I say the sole reason for these abilities is meerely through training. In this case, years of training.

Thorius Maximus 17:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"Kim doesn't run out of the way of things, she usually back flips or fires her grappling hook and swings away, so we rarely get to see her running. There's not enough material for a direct comparison. However, what I will say is that, scientifically, it takes more effort to backflip or jump than to run. I can run a fair distance without breaking a sweat or getting breathless, but if I tried to backflip it, I would be exhausted at the end. This is because the human body is designed for running and can do it very efficiently.

As for the body swapping episode. I know that it's fiction and that artistic liberties were taken, but in order for Kim to have done what she did while in Ron's body, Ron would have needed a level of fitness that exceeds his lifestyle. For example, You need to do a lot of very specific leg exercises in order to be flexible enough to do the splits or a high kick. Ron doesn't get that kind of exercises in gym class, or on missions, or while grande sizing his nacoes. This makes comparisons drawn from that episode pretty moot. Too many liberties in too short a time (like when Ron and Rufus switched bodies and Ron could still talk. Without human vocal cords?"

That's exactly what is applied to the physical abilities issue.

The series does not go much deep in terms of complexity and reasons, and most of them are ignored, and we can't explain most things with realistic reasons in this case because it would be going to deep.

Kim's superhuman jumps are to be ignored and be simply considered normal jumps, due to the "artistic" liberty the drawers have, the same also goes for Shego, Yori, etc. The fact Kim can do a lot of things in a short time is also to be ignored(you'll notice that no combatent also get tired during a fight, with the rare exception when they want the combatant to be tired), for other character also go through such periods of physical intensity, even Monique in a ASiT. Kim's should be considered the equivalent of a professional acrobatic, but not a character with any kind of enhanced speed of strength, shee is only a normal human who as an aptitude for acrobatics and martial arts skills.

The creators do not have in mind, and probably don't want to have in mind(because it complicates things much) the aerobic and the anaerobic exercises. They've focussed on very simple facts, and as a consequence the shouldn't be any connection between Kim jumping and Ron running, for these are to be considered different activities(but require similar efforts in reality). That's why when concerning the running exercise(sidekick running), Ron is considered better than Kim, both in speed and stress resistance.

Concerning Kim being able to run like Ron. First we don't have enough proof for anything, yet I'll speculate(realistic point of view).

There is actually a difference jmuping and running. Intense running exercise trains certain muscles in your legs and torso to better withstand pressure and stress for a long time effort, in the sence that if excesive, certain factures and muscular problem will appear only from running.

There is an actula difference in what Kim does. I've been analysing her fighting scennes, and only rarely are those "continuous" fighting efforts longer than 10 seconds. There is a difference between what Kim does and what Ron does. There are pauses dirung the fights and these are frequent, thus giving her body seconds to relax, even if just 3 seconds, thus making this physical effort a truly not aerobic effort as there are pauses that allow stress release, Ron on the other in those running scenne does not have that opportunity.

Comparing Kim and Ron:

Kim in A New Ron got tired after running and jumping for a while in an attempt to escape the spinnig tops of doom, that she needed to lay back to a wall and rest, it's in these occasions that we see(when they want us to see) Kim getting tired because these are the real limilations of physical effort her body can hold, while in the fighting they ignore this all in the sake of the fun factor, but if they want her to start breathing heavily and getting really tired, then they can put it if they want, but the thing is, they don't want to put simply because they don't have to put that, those are continuous and most of the times relatively short fights(most of the episodes are short fights) and all of these fights are to be considered normal effort fights, nor superhuman in terms of effort fights. That's why Kim's efforts are to be considered normal.

Lets end the convesation here if you don't mind, I'm getting a bit tired with all the responses.

Thorius Maximus 10:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Bonnie pictures
I think the more pictures, the better. How does that picture not add to the text? Don't just think you can do whatever the hell you want without explaining, PB97. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by =CJK= (talk • contribs) 02:49, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Re: KP Images
The images which were deleted had no reason to be on Wikipedia, as they gave no valid claims of fair use (and, in most cases, this is because no such valid claim could exist). If you have images which can be used freely, you are welcome to upload them, but I do not intend to undelete a bunch of images which are only being used for decoration in many instances. If you feel my actions are in error, I'm willing to have another administrator double-check me. (ESkog)(Talk) 13:40, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As you say, my log is quite long. I can't check through and determine which of them are cartoons and which aren't. All I do is clear out the category while checking the upload date and whether there is a fair-use rationale given. (ESkog)(Talk) 14:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

The original image uploaders would have been notified by the individual who tagged the image with the "no-rationale" tag - I do not believe that category is alerted by bot, but I may be mistaken about that. In this process, you are correct that my role is essentially to skim through a list to make sure that (1) the images were uploaded after May 4 06 and (2) there is no fair-use rationale attempted on the page. It is not my role to guess what the rationale might have been, especially since most of these images are uploaded without source information or any data about the copyright holder, which makes it impossible to determine what use is permitted in the first place. (ESkog)(Talk) 20:11, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Quotes
I've got statements from the creators that prove that the "differences" between this Evil Ron from from Stop Team Go and the one from Bad Boy, are meerly due to the the nature of his appearence, it's because of his "cameo" appearence, the creators "simplified" things. The question made to them only concerned his slightly more serious behaviour(although he could have been more serious simply because he noticed he was in a more tight situation, and needed to act quickly). However, the creators response was a more generalzed, oncerning several characteristics.

This "more serious" behvaiour was only slightly, but all the other characteristics remained, including his boyahahahahaha", which I thinks is one of th strongest proofs that were are dealing here with the exact same character. Second, the background music was the same when he was evil in "Bad Boy", this could also be an indication that once again it's the same chracter, since the "phantom of the opera" music is "Evil Ron's" theme in the series.

Here's the link: See the post of a member who's named Kurt Weldon and that has five green stars(it's the second post).

http://ronstoppable.proboards89.com/index.cgi?board=episode&action=display&thread=1178212838&page=12

"Quote" Actually the Evil Ron from Bad Boy was both serious and comical, but this one is almost just serious. Perhaps he's just more serious just because of the situation he's in "Quote"

"Answer: Mainly it's due to time. Evil Ron isn't the focus of the story, and he's not there for very long. So really, he just has time to be, y'know, evil. Evil Ron's appearance is more in the nature of cameo rather than a plot development, even if he does kick some butt in his time onscreen."

The technical talent wasn't shown this time simply because he didn't have the opportunity to, but his forethought, well technically the best word here would "calculism" was indeed shown in his personality. Concerning any minor "differences" I guess these can perhaps be justified by the "simplicity" of things, because of his "cameo" appearence.

In fact, some of us do suspect they wanted to make some fans request come true(and this episode is full of them), but who knows?

By the way, by wanting a "cameo" appearence if this character, it's means that from the beginning that his character isn't just a "momentum", well, at least now it seems that it's no longer.

By the way, good job on sumarizing what I've wrote, the page is better now.

Thorius Maximus 17:27, 05 May 2007 (UTC)