User:Petecarney/Sandbox

Looking for a consensus to rename "Bounty (ship)" using an authentic short form of one or other of the ship's titles.
This proposal is to rename this article to "HM Armed Vessel Bounty" or alternatively "HMS Bounty"

There has been considerable disagreement over how the Bounty article should be titled. It's well known that this ship had two titles: a common language title" and a different "commissioned title", for many purposes used interchangeably.

Historical sources attest authentic short forms of each:


 * The common language title: "HMS" -  Bradley, Barrow.


 * The commissioned title: "HM Armed Vessel" -  Edwards, Flinders (both referring to armed vessels other than Bounty, ie. Supply and Porpoise).

The prefix "HMAV" has popularly been attached to Bounty in recent years but it does not occur in any of the well known historical sources:


 * eg. Bligh, Rutter(Court-Martial), Rutter(Turbulent Journey),Rutter(Bounty Log), Mackaness,

or any other authentic source that I know of, but it was used erroneously in the film The Bounty and was used in the twentieth century for some specialised transport ships but these were Army Vessels, not Armed Vessels. I have found a couple instances of "HMAV" in early 19th century records, for other ships but not enough to suggest any real currency. I have not found any use in connection to Bounty dating prior to WW2, therefore I feel it should be deprecated, - but perhaps someone knows of a source I have overlooked?

Maritime museums generally prefer "HMS" while "HM Armed Vessel" has been favoured by some academics eg. C Knight, Greg Dening.

In short "HMS Bounty" and "HM Armed Vessel" both meet the criteria for historically accurate article titles but "HMAV Bounty" does not.

If we rely on Google then "HMS" wins by a big margin so the naming conventions suggest the article name should be "HMS Bounty". However one idea would be to employ both historical short titles by using "HM Armed Vessel" as the article's title and "HMS" as the subject of the first sentence, eg.

HM Armed Vessel Bounty

HMS Bounty, the scene of a celebrated mutiny in 1789, was originally a merchant sailing ship the Bethia, purchased by the British Admiralty, then modified and commissioned as His Majesty's Armed Vessel the Bounty for a botanical mission to the Pacific Ocean.

This may seem a convoluted way of doing things but it might be a way to satisfy all parties without resorting to ugly fence-sitting. It might be more conventional, but to my mind less elegant, to say "HM Armed Vessel Bounty also known as HMS Bounty..." or "HMS Bounty also known as HM Armed Vessel Bounty...". The style guide does allow for different forms between title and first sentence. "HMAV" should be mentioned in context of the film and the replica, but preferably not in the lead without distinguishing it from the more historically attested titles.

Please say what you think of this or propose an alternative solution - even to leave it as it is. I hope as many editors as possible to take the time to contribute to this discussion with the goal of reaching a consensus which will stick.