User:PeterShihan/oldtalkpage

This is a backup of the old talk page of Mr. Peter Lee. Mr. Peter Lee is a pseudonym used by Peter Larsen. He deleted his account, including the talk page. Of course he doesn't want this page to be public, because then everybody sees his real person. I believe, everybody should see what he really is like. People actually pay him money for his "karate training". They should know, what they are paying for...

First part
The first part dates from 23 July 2009:

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Peter_Lee&direction=prev&oldid=305281756

Deletions etc
Hi - JeremyA agreed to delete the entire history of your talk page, because you stated you had permanently retired - were leaving and not coming back. I appreciate that at the time you meant that, and your stated reasons on JeremyA's talk page for returning. The problem is that as an active editor, your talk page history will be kept intact - the only way to have it deleted is to permanently retire. The problem with that is - well, you're here, so by definition you haven't. If you retire again (I would suggest leaving a short note on JeremyA's user page to this effect as he dealt with it last time) he may be willing to delete your talk page history a second time, but if you return and made any edits to WP, you can expect to have it restored.

If you do plan on staying, then a history from 4 years ago won't necessarily count against you - simply edit in good faith and work constructively with other editors, and people will likely recognise that whatever was going on then isn't a problem anymore.

You asked how to have articles removed from WP, and how to be made a Sysop - the Articles for Deletion and Requests for Adminship are the pages you want for those. For AfD, it's unlikely that articles which are sourced, verifiable and notable will be deleted (I don't know if the articles you want to delete are or not, so can't comment on that), and to be honest, at RfA, with your just returning from a 4 year break and your talk page history before then the community would be unlikely to have a consensus in favour, but you can but try. Hope this helps. All the best --Saalstin (talk) 11:57, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk page
Hi Peter. I left you a message asking if you had come out of retirement; you left me a message stating that you had; so (per my question) I undeleted your talk page history, as the sole reason that it was deleted in the first place was that you had stated that you had permanently retired. I'm sorry I did not respond to your asking about deletion of the articles. As I have explained to you in the past, the unilateral deletion of these articles is beyond the power of me or any other individual admin—as Saalstin states above you will need to request deletion at WP:AFD, there are instructions on that page for how to complete the process. —Jeremy (talk) 14:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of articles
Hi Peter, there are currently only 6 criteria for speedy deletion of articles. Of these the only one that I think could possibly apply to the WKIF or GFIK articles is the one labelled (for historical reasons) criteria 7: "An article about a real person, an organization (e.g. band, club, company, etc., except schools), or web content that does not indicate why its subject is important or significant." I think that a (somewhat borderline) case could be made that neither the WKIF or GKIF articles makes "credible claim of significance or importance" of the organizations in question.

If you think that either article meets this criteria you can tag the article with a proposed deletion notice (see instructions at WP:PROD). This is a process for uncontested deletion--if no one contests the deletion within seven days, an admin will review the article and decide whether or not to delete. If the deletion is contested you would have to go to WP:AFD. Given the history of these articles I would be happier if you went straight to WP:AFD. At AFD you will need to explain why, within the rules of Wikipedia, the articles should be deleted. If relying on the criteria that I quoted above, you should probably make reference to the notability criteria for organizations.

Currently, neither the GKIF or the WKIF article make reference to third-party independent reliable sources and so both may be considered as suitable for deletion unless such sources can be found. If you know that such sources do exist then you will probably be wasting your time with the AFD process and you would be better off re-writing the articles using these sources as references (note that publications produced by these organizations, whilst acceptable as sources, cannot be the only sources for the articles--third party, independent sources are the ones that the articles should be grounded on).

If you decide to go for deletion you should be aware that generally articles are not deleted just because they are poorly written. Improvement is nearly always favoured over deletion--In order to be deleted there has to be no chance that a good, well sourced, article could be written about the subject in question at the present time. I hope this helps.—Jeremy (talk) 19:11, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: Deletion of Genseiryu, WGKF and GKIF
Hi Peter. Due to my past involvement with these articles I recuse myself from making the decision to delete them. As I said above, when the PROD is over an admin will decide whether or not to delete--i.e. deletion is not automatic. If you are unhappy with the outcome of the PROD your next step is to take the articles to AFD. —Jeremy (talk) 23:45, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Just so that you know... if I had not recused myself from participating in this PROD I would have been the one contesting the PROD -- as I mentioned in the first place (see above), PROD is only for non-controversial deletions, and I felt that deletion of these articles would be controversial: the reason I encouraged you to bypass PROD and go straight to AFD.


 * Regarding your message to me. Whenever you edit an article you are presented with the following text: "If you do not want your writing to be edited, used, and redistributed at will, then do not submit it here." In other words once you click that 'save page' button you are no longer the sole person who can make decisions on what to do with that text, therefore the fact that you are the main editor of an article does not mean anything (see WP:OWN). Being president of the GKIF just means that you have a conflict of interest regarding these articles, it does not mean that Wikipedia is obliged to delete them at your request.


 * On the other hand, the issue of verifiability is something that I, and other Wikipedians take very seriously. Deletion of controversial material that can not backed up by reliable sources is acceptable. And if the entire articles are unverifiable, it should be rather easy to show this in an AFD discussion. —Jeremy (talk) 00:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Second part
The second part dates from 19 December 2005:

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Peter_Lee&oldid=31926328

Mr Peter Lee introduced himself. Many people don't agree what he claims to be. If he add the style name Genseiryu Butokukai instead of Genseiryu it is correct but the meaning of this will be very small because many Genseiryu teachers think that he received al the certificates from Mr. Tosa because he can make some propaganda of Genseiryu Butokukai in Denmark. Mr. Tosa proclaimed himself the succesor of Sensei Shukumine. This is not true and Mr. Tosa must legally call his style Genseiryu (butokukai) with the addition of Butokukai. Peter Lee is not a member of a national official Karate organization like the Danish karate Federation. He is no official teacher recognized by an official organisation. So everything should be seen in the correct perspective. On his website he made a forum which is used for his propaganda he omits every comment he doesn't like to hear. --212.127.137.2 21:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Nice extra info: just read the 2nd paragraph of "Karate in the West" and McDojo (esp. the part about "Questionable credentials of instructor"!). Recognize anything/anybody in there??? -- Mario R 22:55, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Please stop removing content from Wikipedia. It is considered vandalism. If you want to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Shinjitsu 01:57, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * As the pages are victims of vandalism, I keep changing whatever I want. If I told you to keep staying in the middle of the road until you got run over, would you move? Of course you would. Now, when people put false propaganda on the Wikipedia site, I keep correcting them. Especially as I am the one being attacked all the time. You see, I move.


 * So stop ordering me around. This is a waiste of time, and also misplaced, as you obviously have no idea what this is all about. If you have some constructive input, I would be happy to listen. But your comment was upright ridiculous.


 * Mr. Lee, this is not the kind of attitude that is appreciated here on Wikipedia. Especially not the comment (summary) you wrote on my page (Stay OFF my back, or take time to learn what you are talking about.) . I will simply not tolerate this kind of talking from anybody! You have a serious attitude problem.


 * As far as I could see it: you deleted a major text part of an article that contains a template saying it is actively undergoing a major edit. Stay away from this kind of articles until the edit is finished! --Shinjitsu 00:16, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Do I have a serious attitude problem? I don't see it. I am not the one waisting other people's time by putting false propaganda and slander on the Wikipedia site every day. If you cannot accept my deletion of these person's vandalism and the slander posted here, no matter what kind of posting is put there for major upcoming edit, then YOU have an attitude problem. If you cannot see that, then I'd say that is a major problem. I may even say, that your name is knwon to me, using just another pseudo here. At least I am using ONLY my own name, and facing all problems as a responsible person not hiding behind multiple usernames. As I told you before, stay off my back. You are not helping anyone this way. This will be my last post to you, no matter what you may write. If you want my attention, you should go to my website and write to me directly. This way we can find out, if you are really who you say you are, or whether you are just using another pseudo. I may be wrong about this of course, but actually, I certainly don't think so.


 * Sir, really, this is not the way to start at a free encyclopedia. I urge you to read more about Wikiquette, before you start any article or change any existing article! Others people's input can not just be deleted. Add your input to the text, not in stead of the text! -- Shinjitsu 01:07, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You should be aware of a few things about the way we work here. Firstly, it is a bad breach of etiquette to delete anything from talk pages (as a practitioner of martial arts I'm sure you realise how bad a breach of etiquette can be). This applies to your own talk page, but even more so to other talk pages. If you disagree with what other people say you can reply, but to remove their comments is very bad.

If you need to ask questions, please do so at Help desk or at my talk page.

Happy editing. DJ Clayworth 01:33, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reverts
Please be aware that you should not undo someone else's edit (what we call a 'revert') more than three times in 24hrs - even if you are undoing three different people's edits. Doing so can get you an automatic ban on editing for 24hrs. You did this on GENSEIRYU, but I'll assume you didn't know about the rule.

Also, article titles should be in lower case unless the word is always spelled in uppercase only. DJ Clayworth 01:43, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lower case and remarks on vandalism
I see. I changed it to Lower case. No problem. But using the hyphen for the name is wrong. It is a way someone who is not familiar with the writing sometimes adhere to. By this way of writing the uninitiated can sometimes better relate to Genseiryu. But it has been changed according to your argumentation (DJ Clayworth).

Anyway, I agree that discussions are not vandalism, of course not. But when the same person, hiding behind multiple accounts created for the sole purpose of forcing his twisted views onto others by writing his false propaganda, which he very well know is untrue, then that is considered to be destructive - thus it is pure vandalism. For example. If I, say in math, claims that 2+2=10, then everybody would know this to be untrue. But because only a few here at the Wikipedia site actually know anything about Genseiryu, then I risk being accused of vandalism, simply because I correct the text into holding only true information. Back to my example, the only thing I do is changing the math from 2+2=10 into 2+2=4. We learned math in school, but unfortunately nobody learned Genseiryu in school. My background in Genseiryu can be seen on a great many sites all over the world. In Japan, only one organization (having roots back to the beginning in 1953) is admitted as Genseiryu Butokukai (see here: . If you follow the Genseiryu Butokukai site, you will end here: . Then, if you take a look at the branch section, you will se my name under Denmark. In this regard I see no Mario anywhere at all (or even Konno, who is Mario's instructor in Holland). As I have said on many occasions, written, posted on so many sites worldwide, the Dutch section of Genseiryu Butokukai is headed by Mr. Willem Varenkamp currently undergoing formal admission preparations after having earned his way through years of dedication to the Genseiryu art since the year 2000. No other person in Holland, regardless of claims saying otherwise, have ever been, is or will ever become members of the Genseiryu Butokukai organisation, unless they earn their way of course. But see for yourself at both the above and below mentioned sites.

Much more information on Genseiryu can be found here: Denmark, Japan , Holland , Australia , India (From time to time I see Mario having edited my text. LEAVE YOUR HANDS OFF. You are even breaking the rules of Wikipedia when doing that. If you do not agree, then post your OWN comments, but stop editing mine. You are a disgrace to Genseiryu. -- Peter Lee)

Attempts to smear these facts, adding heresay or down right slander and other sorts of accusations to the text, hiding behind the acts of "undergoing major edit" etc. is in my dictionary only one thing: Vandalism. And the Wikipedia System Admins should put an end to this promptly, or simply remove any text regarding Genseiryu from their servers. As a courtesy to the folks not knowing what vandalism is, I took the liberty of finding an English to English dictionary about it. It says: VANDALISM (n), destruction, defacing, graffiti, mischief, ravaging, ruin, sacking, smashing, trashing, wreckage, wrecking. I believe destruction of truth is also vandalism, even though no handheld property was damaged.

Indeed, Mario has been "working" on his "major edit" for days now. I believe his "edit" is not an edit. It is just more lies and false propaganda, and putting this "keep hands off the text" flag on it, just keeps his text being public longer. It is simply a trick. He has been "working" on it for days now, but when will it ever be finished? I say, that Mario uses this "keep hands off", only as a way to keep me from editing it back to its original form, by removing his lies and false propaganda including slander and false accusations. Because of Mario's actions, of course I do not intend to sit back and "enjoy" the show. If indeed he had something truthful to say, I would prefer his edits to be without the slander and accusations as he is so keenly posting time and time again.

Lastly. I have been with the martial arts since the age of ten (I am now going on 34), and I have been awarded the rank of 5th dan as the only one in Europe ever. I guess I need not say much more than that? Mario is a student, who have som wicked idea of his own believes. He has not yet proved himself in any way within the Genseiryu community. His vandalism and accusations even got him banned for 48 hours at the GENSEIRYU® FORUM,, as he would not stop his slander and false propaganda there. I guess he hates it, but then he should adhere to the truth, and start acting as a sincere and responsible person, taking responsibility for all his actions regardless. I simply wonder when that would ever happen. --Peter Lee 22:37, 7 jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Let me straighten one thing out, since Mr.Lee is using the 48 hour ban against me here: he did ban me, but only because of two reasons (vandalism is not even possible on that forum, because you can't change the text of other people, so that is already humbug in itself!!):
 * I kept signing my posts (which were absolutely honest discussions/replies) with Mario Roering - Genseiryu Karatedo Netherlands. The latter being a fact that Mr. Lee doesn't want to acknowledge and he calls this "commercialising", just to find a reason to ban me. You see, HE is the owner of that forum! He can censor anything he doesn't like, he can deny access to anybody he doesn't like, etc. I however kept signing with that name, because I think people are entitled to know who they are dealing with... Besides, he signs his posts the same way. Isn't that commercialising??? But of course, he cannot ban HIMSELF from his OWN forum! So this is simply censoring!!
 * I asked some honest and serious questions about his life. Actually the exact same questions as on his talk page! He does not own Wikipedia, so he can not just delete anything he doesn't like...Fortunately, otherwise Wikipedia would become very one-sided... Please, take a look at these questions yourself and tell me what is wrong with those? Well, Mr.Lee found it wrong and removed them from the forum and then gave me the 24 hour ban! And I thought censoring was out of (this part of) the world!!! -- Mario R 22:49, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, well, Mr. Lee,
 * Trying to use your manipulative ways here to innocent people now? Haven't you already manipulated enough people? You want to create your little army of brainwashed people that work for you? I work on only 1 name on Wikipedia and that one is a REAL name also! You are using your pseudo "Lee", all the time, everywhere. And to whom belong all those names of those vandalists on the Dutch Wikipedia: Setia Hati, Zzaroc, Saiko, Thoar, and a couple of anonymous IP addresses???
 * Let me clear up some facts about Mr. Peter Lee and Genseiryu (Butokukai) here:
 * Yes, he has the fifth dan (in Genseiryu Butokukai), that is not a lie
 * He is NOT the only one awarded the 5th dan in Europe. Okay, maybe in Genseiryu Butokukai yes, but in Genseiryu Mr. Konno has 6th dan, awarded by the founder of the style, Sensei Shukumine himself!
 * Lee got 4th dan in 1999 and 5th dan in 2003.
 * It is unknown in what year he got the previous dans, he is very mysterious about that
 * It is however known (by witnesses) that 4 years before he had 4th dan (so in 1995) he still had 4th KYU (=Blue belt)
 * That means he went from blue belt to 4th dan in about 4 years time. Normally it takes at least 10 years to do this!
 * His 5th dan is not acknowledged by the Danish Karate Federation, neither are his 4th and 3rd dan. Don't know about 2nd and 1st dan...
 * No, you won't find my name or Mr. Konno's name on any of the sites mentioned by Peter Lee, because the sites he is mentioning are Genseiryu Butokukai  sites and we don't do that style of karate. We are members of ('simply') Genseiryu.
 * Mr. Konno is head of Genseiryu Netherlands, with a total of 4 clubs, situated in Amstelveen, Amsterdam, Anna Paulowna and Den Helder. Mr. Varenkamp is head of Genseiryu Butokukai Netherlands with only ONE school in Amstelveen.
 * Mr. Konno is all over the pages of THE Japanese Genseiryu website (click links bottom left and middle). Thus, Mr. Lee saying Mr. Konno is not a member of Genseiryu is another lie! (or denial of fact)
 * On that same site you can find all the important people inside the World Genseiryu Organisation. Mr. Lee is not amongst them. Thus, saying he is so important for Genseiryu is again, a lie... He might be important to Genseiryu Butokukai, but not for Genseiryu.
 * Some Genseiryu sites (real Genseiryu sites, not butokukai sites) that say absolutely nothing about any Mr. Lee, but giving more information about Genseiryu: Netherlands , Denmark  , Finland , Spain  and Japan
 * To proove my involvement and Mr. Konno's involvement in Genseiryu, take a look at pictures of the celebration of 55 years of Genseiryu and 40 years of Taido, where Mr. Lee was not even invited to!
 * Another proove of Mr. Konno's involvement in Genseiryu. This is an agreement signed by representatives of Genseiryu organisations, all joining in the World/European Genseiryu Karatedo Federation (W.G.K.F.). On this agreement you can see that Mr. Konno is actually the Director General of the W.G.K.F.!! Please also notice that Lee's name is not anywhere on that agreement...


 * So, Mr. Lee, stop manipulating everybody and stop telling you turn 2+2=10 into 2+2=4, 'cause it's the exact other way round!


 * I am making a NPOV article now, you will have your say on it when it is finished. I have NOT been "working" on this "major edit" for days now. The sign WIP was added on the 6th of June at 18:25, that is less than 48 hours ago and yesterday Wikipedia was down the WHOLE day, so I could not even work on it!
 * Don't you worry, you will be able to tell all your lies and all your 2+2=10 lines in the article... Just give me a chance to work it all out first! The more you disturb me with vandalising the article, and telling lies about me and sensei Konno (which I have to clarify then), the longer it takes you get your say! Thank you!!!!!!!!!! -- Mario R 01:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Blocked
You have been blocked for 12 hours for violating the Three Revert Rule. Please, in the future do not revert an article more than three times in a 24-hour period.

There is no ownership of articles on Wikipedia. Please attempt to work with other editors rather than fighting against them, and assume good faith on their part. Characterizing edits you disagree with as "vandalism" is needlessly abrasive and poor wikiquette.

I understand your frustration, as the version you've been reverting is clearly POV. However, it also adds additional neutral information and corrects many spelling and style problems in the earlier version, so simply reverting it throws out the baby with the bathwater. Please try working towards a compromise with the other contibutors; edit wars serve no purpose. If no compromise can be reached despite a good-faith effort on your part, please follow the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution process to resolve things in a civil and amicable manner.

I'm sorry about the inconvenience. Hopefully this will merely be a minor setback and we can al avoid future frustration. &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 05:30, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hi Peter

I'm afraid I have no knowledge of Genseiryu, so I'm not qualified to pass an opinion on who is right. What I wrote was solely about the removal of comments from talk pages. Your best bet for dealing with someone who disagrees with you about what should be in an article is as follows:


 * 1) Explain on the talk page why you think what you wrote is right. Read what they say as well.
 * 2) Provide references from outside Wikipedia to back up what you think. If they do the same, read them.
 * 3) Ask for other people to look at the article and provide advice. Even if they know nothing about the subject they may be able to help.
 * 4) Remember that opinions shouldn't be in an article.
 * 5) If there is a real disagreement over what the facts are, not just between two editors but between different groups of people, then the best way may be to record both views and allow the reader to make up their mind.
 * 6) If the other user really isn't listening to reason, then try Request for comment to get other people's opinions.

I hope that helps. DJ Clayworth 19:01, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Questions
Hello Mr. Peter Lee. I have some questions for you. I am quite interested in Genseiryu as well, just as you are, so here are my questions:


 * 1) How long have you been training karate?
 * 2) How long have you been training Genseiryu?
 * 3) Are you training Genseiryu or Genseiryu Butokukai?
 * 4) You have the 5th dan you say? Is this Dan also recognised by the Danish Karate Federation?
 * 5) You seem rather young (33 years) to have the 5th dan already... When exactly did you receive the 1th, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th dan?
 * 6) Who was the examinator who awarded you each dan?
 * 7) Do you hold any dan from the Danish Karate Federation? If so, which dan is that?
 * 8) Is Lee you real last name, or just a pseudonym? If this is a pseudo, what is your real last name, under which you were born?
 * 9) What is the difference (according to you) between Genseiryu and Butokukai?
 * 10) Why do you keep calling your style and your website "Genseiryu" without the obligatorily term "butokukai"? This obligation has been layed upon your style in Japan by the JKF.
 * 11) If you don't want "your style" to be called "Genseiryu Butokukai", why do you have a reference on your site to a Butokukai-site, namely http://www.genseiryu.jp (at the bottom it says: Copyright (C) 2002 Butoku-kai, also check the link and the header of the page!)
 * 12) If sensei Konno, according to you, "is not a part of Genseiryu", please explain me what his pictures are doing on THE Japanese Genseiryu website (click links bottom left and middle).
 * 13) If you consider yourself to be so important as you say you are, together with Mr. Tosa, why are your pictures not on that website?

Thank you very much for answering these questions and have lots of fun in karate...

Osu!
 * Gensei-sjeng, 22:13, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Answers
All answers to the questions can be found at our website in Denmark. Please take a look here:.
 * To most of the questions, I did not find any answer there. I am sorry to say that what you are saying is not true. So I ask you once again, please take your time to answer all the questions right here, so that everybody can see. Thank you!

FUNNY
Well, if you can't read, then perhaps the answers are not there, so maybe you should concentrate. If you can read, then perhaps your questions are too ridiculous for anyone to take an interest. I wonder what you would do, if you could not spend all your time in front of the computer. Are you ever training? Well, please continue to search for your answers. You certainly need to get a lot of things straightened out. Good luck.


 * Actually, I trained last night. I also trained last Sunday (privat training). And another training on Friday. And since you are so interested, I have been diving today (my other hobby). And on Monday I went shopping in IKEA, bought a new cupboard, built it up in my home and in the late afternoon I had a visit from a friend. I have enough free time in my job as a pilot to train, exercise, do the household, cook, doing research, build further my own web page about Genseiryu, work on a NPOV article that combines all the stories together and then still have enough time left to frustrate you with questions that you are simply too afraid to answer here on Wikipedia! It is not the questions that are ridiculous, it's the answers... That's exactly the reason, why you are not answering them.


 * Since you are asking: We had a very tough training last night in especially Chi-no-kata and Jin-no-kata. But you don't care about that, since you rejected those kata that are so special for the style of Genseiryu as can be read here. Rejecting Ten-Chi-Jin as basic kata's is rejecting the style of Shukumine, therefore you should not claim to be doing Genseiryu. You are lucky enough to have been granted the right by the JKF of using Genseiryu Butokukai.

BUTOKUKAI
Let me clear one thing up in regard to the Japanese language. The name Butokukai is the name of the dojo, in which Tosa sensei are conducting his teaching. Butokukai is a name on the same linesa are Shotokan, Genwakai, Shitokai, Genseikai, Gojukai etc. In Japanese the last character 'KAI' means gathering, thus you may translate it as dojo. In Denmark my dojo is called Kentokukai. Another dojo in Denmark is called Shojinkan. So these names are used to distinguish the actual dojo from any other dojo. In Japan, we have i.e. Shotokai, they are not doing a style called Shotokai. Their style is Shotokan. Also in Japan, Gojukai is not doing a style called Gojukai, but their style is Gojuryu etc. etc. The reason for i.e. Genwakai, Ryounkai etc. to use their name for both the organisation and style is unknown to me. But I would say that a fair guess would be, that at the time Genseiryu was identified with Tosa sensei, then these organisations chose to go their own way, thus changing their style to differ from that of Genseiryu. In order to avoid confusion, they simply identified their style as identical with the name of their organisation. Actually a smart way, especially if you consider the fact that if all these organisations went their own way, but all still calling their style of Genseiryu, then you would a great number of Genseiryu-styles. Stupid thing. There is only one Genseiryu out there. So anyone claiming that Butokukai is a style, simply has no knowledge of the Japanese language, and are trying to bring even more confusion to the readers. --- Peter Lee

Kai (&#20250;)

 * Maybe you do have a greater knowledge about Japanese than I have, maybe not. However, in this case you are only half right. I'll explain why:


 * The character KAI (&#20250;) can mean indeed 'gathering' or 'meeting'. But, like many words in Japanese (and in English), it has more than only one meaning: it can also mean join, interview and most important in this case: associaton . One of the biggest Karate associations in the world is Kyokushinkai (see for example ). Kyokushinkai, also known as Kyokushin, is NOT just the name of a school, it's an association or organisation that is spread all over the world. Every karateka knows about Kyokushinkai. Lesser known styles (or associations) are: Shotokai (which is different from Shotokan! See ), Wadokai, Genwakai , and even the Japan Karatedo Association (JKA) is called in Japanese Nippon Karate Kyokai.


 * In this regard, also Butokukai is an association (or organization), so even more than just 'a style'. But it is definitely not just the name of a school... Now, if I ever said butokukai is a style, then I admit I was wrong. It is more than a style, it's an association of which your school is also a part. Check this: !!!!
 * -- Mario R 22:27, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * As always you base your arguments on at best lack of information, or as I see it, deliberately in contradiction to all sense. Despite the meaning explained by you, especially when concerning the Japan Karate Association (In Japanese: Nippon Karate Kyokai), the KAI of that last word is not to be taken out of context. It would be the same as to say, that 3 letters of a word had som hidden meaning, when none exist. In this case the KYOKAI actually does mean ASSOCIATION, but in regard to i.e. ShotoKAI, the maening is different. Butokukai, Kyokushinkai, and GENSEIKAN (which you belong to) etc. are ALL names of a dojo as explained above. The same applies to Shotokan. As in GENSEIKAN, this is definately not the name of a style. It is the name of a building. When the students of Funakoshi (the founder of Shotokan) build a new dojo for their master, they named the BUILDING as Shotokan. Shoto because Funakoshi had a keen interest in poetry. He always signed as SHOTO. That is the reason for choosing this name. The addition of KAN, is because it was a building. Translated it simply means the SHOTO-BUILDING. The same (though the story is different) applies in explanation to that of GENSEI-KAN. If you would have investigated the matter thoroughly instead of rushing out to offer more slander and lies on your part, you would have known, that Shotokan never named their style. They simply claim to do Karate-do, and no particular style. The same goes for Kyokushinkai, which has a direct lineage from Shotokan. The same thing could perhaps be said about Ryounkai, Genwakai etc. So indeed these are names of an organisation, and in no way a names of styles. And they are in no way the names of associations or federations as you claim. In Japanese you would use KYOKAI for association and RENMEI for federation. So once again, your so-called "thorough" research is lacking in so many ways. As I have mentioned before, my dojo is called Kentokukai. Tosa sensei's is called Butokukai. We are both members of the same federation: Genseiryu Karate-do International Federation. <> -- Peter Lee
 * I really don't have to take your insults Lee! -- Mario R 22:56, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well now... As always you become very offensive when somebody is correcting you. Has anyone ever told you exactly how arrogant you are? In all your arrogancy you overlooked the fact that I already said you were 1/2 right. I never said you were totally wrong in this case! Again: The character KAI (&#20250;) can mean indeed 'gathering' or 'meeting', just like you said. In this regard a lot of schools used this term to start their school with. As so did Butokukai and so is your school Kentuckykai, and many other organizations. However, a lot of these organizations have now grown to big associations, spread all over the world. Then it becomes handy that the word KAI also has the meaning of 'association'. You can look that up in any dictionary or try the internet like, , or  (although I already gave plenty of websites in my previous explaination about KAI!)!!!
 * The word -KAN (&#39208;) is indeed often used for "building". Sometimes you see even the term Kyokushinkaikan, meaning a "building where the association of Kyokushin practises". However even Shotokan from sensei Gichin Funakoshi has become a huge association (though the word KAN in this case cannot be translated to that) with about 75% of all karatekas of the world in it!
 * I indeed practise at Genseikan, a building where we practise Gensei or Genseiryu as a matter of fact! Mr. Tosa called his first dojo "Butokukai". He started a new style of Genseiryu which became later the style of Genseiryu Butokukai and this has grown to quite a big style (association) in Japan. I also have to stand up for the guys from Genwakai and Ryounkai as they are definitely NOT buildings (maybe they started out that way) but they are true karate styles that started out from Genseiryu, just like Butokukai. Now I am ready to take your next insults, 'cause I know you just can't stand it when somebody is telling you that you're wrong, even when he is saying you're only half wrong ... -- Mario R 21:59, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Dear SHIHAHAHAN Lee, I agree Mario doesn't have to take your insults, you never showed any evidence and you are denying ours. Besides that you use your forum website for propaganda, in the past years I saw many comments which you erased immediately if you didn't like the content of what people wrote. The last was the writing of Mario. If I knew you would apologize publicly about all the lies you told I would show you a lot of certificates that would proof more than you could handle. It would embarase you and also Mr. Tosa because you are mentioning what he told you. If I show you certficates of Sensei Shukumine that shows who really is his successor than you have to apologies for lying but can you also apologize for Mr. Tosa? I don't think so, and that would mean Mr. Tosa lose his face. Can you take that responsibility? You already threatened many people with law suits but never continued doing so. Why? If you have many proofs of everything you are claiming. Show us, show the request of Sensei Konno to mr. Tosa or the certificate of Mr. Tosa to back up that he is the succesor. So untill you really know what is true be carefull with your law suits to Mario and others or receiving one suit for defamation.

Konno's Organization
Even though Mario is extremely active in his ways to force his special opinions upon us all, confusing about who has the true Genseiryu lineage, and who does not, as well as who is what and where, I must say I have given up on talking sense into Mario. His is a lost case, for lack of a better word. In the text he simply say, that Tosa sensei has been ordered by law to always use Butokukai (see above) to Genseiryu. This is ridiculous. Konno's organisation was founded in 2002, but first really came off the start lane in 2003. So if this organisation should have any rights more important then those of Tosa sensei who have used the name since 1953, then no justice exist in the world. And as I have noted before, I consider the Japanese people one of the finest. Of course they are "only" human as the rest of us, so ............. Anyway, this statement is so ridiculous that I am still laughing after reading it. You should too. --- Peter Lee


 * SENSEI Konno's organisation is not 'his' organisation and it was not founded in 2002. Sensei Konno is a member of Genseiryu and that exists since 1950, as you well know. It is the organisation of Sensei Shukumine. Before he died he appointed Sensei Yamada and after that Sensei Saito as Head Instructor of this organisation. This organisation is nowadays called World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation and the Head Instructor now (after the death of Sensei Saito) is Sensei Yasunori Kanai. Sensei Tosa is the leader of Nippon Karatedo Butokukai (or the International Genseiryu Butokukai Karatedo Federation), not of the W.G.K.F....
 * Yes I am extremely active. Active in getting the truth above the table. It has been shoved under it too long already... We also have a saying in Holland: "Wie het laatst lacht, lacht het best!" (The one who's laughing as the last one, is laughing the loudest!). So, please, keep on laughing... --Mario R 14:30, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mario's background

 * Mario, stop editing the titles to fit your needs. Stop changing the comments of others, but put your own comments instead. Your attitude, and your working ways are indeed the lowest as can be. --- Peter Lee
 * Well, they are not as low as yours, since you are accusing innocent people of unlawful actions and systematically try to ruin their careers with your lies (which fortunately is not succeeding very well)! Again you are accusing me of something I didn't do: I don't change comments of others, besides correcting a few English mistakes of my friends. I never touched any of your texts (but I'm going to if you don't stop insulting me!), apart from the stupid title ("Mario's background") you gave this discussion. It is totally WAY OFF here, since you are only talking about yourself! Besides it's only a title, it's not your text!!! Change it in anything else, but leave my name out, because the text below is not about me or my background at all! -- MR

''':::This is the last time I am TELLING you to stop your slander. You are among other rules BREAKING the rules of this encyclopedia. You are NOT allowed to change the comments of others, you are ONLY allowed to ADD your own comments, if you disagree. WILL SOMEONE PLEASE STOP THIS ANNOYING AND DELUSIONAL PERSON? Mario is completely disrespectful in all ways possible. -- Peter Lee'''
 * Hold your horses dude. You have no idea about breaking rules, you have been breaking them systematically for a long period of time already, so don't act like an angel. As I told you, I never changed any comments unless it was improving simple English mistakes (which is not only allowed but even wanted on Wikipedia) or I removed insulting, offensive language. For this time, I will leave the insulting language you are spitting out here on this international medium, so that everybody in the world can see who you really are. So, please go on insulting me...
 * About the title, you can name it whatever you want, as far as I am concerned you can call it "Snowwhite and the seven dwarfs", people can read anyway that the text is about you and not about me... Besides it would be a much better title, since you've been telling so many fairytales already!
 * I won't even bother to try to lecture you about 'respect', that would only be a waste of time... --Mario R 10:15, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You comment a lot on my 5th dan. Well, you are welcome. I find it funny, that you are so interested in my goals and achievements. I believe you are envious? Well, I know I was, when I entered the dojo for the first time in 1997 in Japan. I also wanted to be as skillful as the Japanese masters. But you see, instead of returning home quickly, just claiming some degree, then I returned to Japan on numerous occasions staying there for months and months each time training up to 8 hours each day every day. Since then a total of 8 years has passed, since my first trip to Japan, but 9 years has passed since I first met with Tosa sensei in 1996. Tosa sensei is in my very honest opinion the best instructor I have ever met. Nobody whatsoever just comes near his capacity and dedication. As a matter of fact I searched many years (about 6 years) for a suitable teacher before I kind of by fate, met Tosa sensei. Since then I have seen a great many Japanese masters perform, teach etc. and I have been invited to many dojos. I have never ever seen any teacher like Tosa sensei. Only one has in this time of honesty the ability to pop up in my mind, and that is the personal friend of Tosa sensei. His name is Fujimoto sensei. He is an 8th dan in Shito-ryu and he is among other things famous worldwide for his ability to split an apple into two equal parts, like it was done perfectly with a knife. Fujimoto sensei just does this with his hand (Nuki-te). And the apple is dangling freely from the ceiling in a thin thread. My point is, that even if I had been training only 3 months in total, then I would still have learned more than Mario would have done in 10 years (just used as an example for sake of the argument) learning from Konno or whomever. The reason simply being, that if you have a great teacher, it no longer matters how long you have been training, as long as you are practicing under the most productive conditions at all times. I never waste my time on ridiculous and timeconsuming things. I spent time only on training methods that can and does improve my ability and skill everytime I move. See, that is training. I am indeed very greatful for the opportunity to be the direct student of Tosa sensei, who learned directly from Shukumine sensei. I am thus the third generation of Genseiryu, if you consider the lineage. If what Mario says - just for arguments sake - is true, then at best, he would be about the 6th or 7th generation. But as we all very well know, Konno never learned anything from Tosa sensei (and he never was awarded any rank), and he never learned anything from Shukumine sensei (and he never was awarded any rank). Konno was a member of the Ryounkai, which did not teach Genseiryu. So talking about a lineage is kind of misplaced, when talking about Konno. Because no lineage is there. It is as simple as that. So please Mario, what is your next slander. I look forward to receiving it. This is fun.
 * I took the liberty of changing the header from "Mario's background" to "Peter Lee's background" since you are talking so much about yourself here. Besides, you wouldn't be able to scetch my background, since you don't even know me. But thank you for sketching out your life in Japan. That must have been a very nice period. I myself love Japan as well, but had never the opportunity to go there for a longer period. I admit that I envy you in that.
 * This is indeed very time consuming, especially since you keep saying things that I have to correct all the time. But I have enough time as I already explained above (see "FUNNY") and I keep doing that. However, like I have told you yesterday, this is all taken of the time that I can work on the NPOV article... If you would stop confusing people, I would be able to do some serious work...
 * For example, you are wrong again about saying that sensei Konno never learned anything from sensei Tosa. They were in close contact with eachother and have trained together as well, before sensei Tosa turned his back on both sensei Shukumine and sensei Konno. So you could carefully say, since they trained together, they must have learned something from eachother. Also you are wrong saying sensei Konno never learned anything from sensei Shukumine. As can be seen on pictures made by sensei Konno himself, sensei Shukumine occasionally gave lessons to high instructors of Genseiryu . Amongst these were sensei Konno (who shot the pictures) and sensei Kanai (World Genseiryu Head Instructor and President of the World Genseiryu Karatedo Federation). Also Sensei Konno was awarded 6th dan Genseiryu by sensei Shukumine himself, but then again you will deny that even though there is proof of that. Sensei Konno also received the 6th dan from Sensei Hisataka in April 1992 in Koshiki Karatedo. This was announced in the "K.O." (a Karate magazine) by a reporter called Ino Alberga. Accidentally Ino Alberga named sensei Tosa as the one who gave the 6th dan to sensei Konno. This is how the whole situation about the 6th dan of sensei Konno started. By a simple mistake in somebody's article...
 * Ryounkai, Genwakai, Butokukai, Keneikai, Seidokai are all schools that in fact used to train Genseiryu Karatedo. In those days, they were not yet big associations (see the part about -kai (Butokukai) above), but merely a couple of schools that trained Genseiryu and used the name of their school as additional term, so you would get: Genseiryu Ryounkai, Genseiryu Seidokai, Genseiryu Butokukai, etc. However, every organisation has gone it's own way, some are using the old school name for their style and organisation (like Ryounkai and Genwakai) and to a certain extend they have changed the techniques and/or katas. The style of Genwakai has done this to a further extend then the other styles, or maybe organisations or associations is a better term. Some of them have grown to big associations, for example Genseiryu Butokukai is quite big in Japan. With the exception of Butokukai all these organisations train the kata Ten-I, Chi-I and Jin-I-no-kata as the basic kata. Butokukai has rejected these kata and changed them for the Heians from Shotokan. I don't know exactly when they did this, maybe you can tell me? But, as you can see, in fact sensei Konno always trained Genseiryu! -- Mario R 15:37, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Mr. Willem Varenkamp
Dear Mr. Lee (pseudonym?),

Nice to bring in Mr. Varenkamp. Mr. Varenkamp was a student of Sensei Konno. So if he learned something he learned this from Sensei Konno. I think sensei Konno regrets this but who can foresee so much dishonesty with one of your students. So if you say Sensei Konno is not doing Genseiryu and he is, where did he learn this, he didn't go to Japan, he only went 2 or 3 times to your children trainingcamp. Is it in your opinion that easy to learn Genseiryu? But I forget he is doing Genseiryu Butokukai, which he is not mentioning by the way, maybe that is easy to learn. It should be, because after 4 years training you can receive a 4th dan from being 4th KYU. -- 212.127.137.2 07:02, 8 jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, once again you show evidence of reading impairment. Mr. Varenkamp has invited me to Holland on a few occasions, as well as he together with his students has been to Denmark many times. This is just more slander, the only thing you are good at. Mr. Varenkamp has indeed cut his links to Konno, that was hard, but Mr. Varenkamp is a brave man, now finally admitting to both himself and his students, that Konno is in no way what he claims to be. That certainly is bravery. Especially concidering your statement, that you have difficulties admitting your sensei having flaws. I guess you are not a brave man. Just because you are not, you should not slander those of us who at least try to walk the true and honest path, regardless of any attacks always conducted by you and those like you. You should change your paths as well. The world would indeed be a much better place, if you did. -- Peter Lee

Mr Willem Varenkamp Brave? I am sorry to say Mr Varenkamp is not brave, he did not come with his students to you but only with his son and even didn't join the whole childrens trainingcamp. But between children everybody wearing a black belt looks brave. My Sensei is very good and dedicated in everything he does. And most of all he doesn't lie. Mr. Varenkamp left Sensei Konno because he couldn't follow the way sensei Konno wanted. He betrayed sensei Konno because sensei Konno didn't like Varenkamp to become president of our club. So he choose to leave and follow you and become a big teacher between all the children of his club. We are all very happy he is gone.

We never attacked mr. Varenkamp but if he sent his son Thoar, 18 years old, to fight his fight we will defend us or our teacher. Is it brave that a father let his son start to fight his fight? Now Thoar started something which we are not stopping as long as we can. I wish you a lot of happiness together. You deserve eachother big headteachers of Genseiryu Butokukai. Denmark and Holland Butokukai. Is it necessary to change your last name if you join Butokukai? What will be the next name of Willem? Willem Chan? This will fit your name. 212.127.137.2 15:50, 8 jun 2005 (UTC)

1 First of all, I did not ask my son to do some thinks what he does not want to do. No single father would do that [if you a father, than you can understand]. Perhaps your father did it to you. If it so, i'm so sorry for you.

2 Second, i'm happy that someone knows my name. It looks for me better to have a name than without a name. If you don't have a name, than you are and you still a number. Now i know why you use a number. You are unknown and you are afraid of...

Thirdly, I don't give an answer to unknown person [he don't have a opinion] and also i don't speak to a number. It's looks like a fool. It's for me a waste of time.

3 Fourth of all, do you know what happened at that time? Were you also present at that moment and do you know the whole history [from the beginning] and the background, why i left the cooperation with Mr. Konno even with his foundation [IKC]. Did he tell you this? Or you do not want to hear it from Mr. Konno.

4 about fighting? All this issues, are they your opinion or...?
 * Who's fight is this?
 * Who's talking about fighting?
 * What are you afraid of?
 * What do you want to proof?
 * Do you think the way what you are doing, a good way?
 * Did Mr. Konno lear you this aggressively matter?
 * Did Mr. Konno tell you, when you want to fight you must do this on the fairly way to do and not on the sneakily way?
 * Are you so insecure of your self?

5 I'm afraid for you, that you, number, do not understand all the issues. I'm so sorry for you. But mine advise for you, you must train harder and more experience in your life to understand this matter.

6 For your information, when i met Mr. Peter Lee, i have seen and learn a lot than i have train with Mr. Konno. It doesn't matter for me of this children trainingscamp or not. But anyway if you take good look of the foto, there also adult. Now i understand you are also can not see. You want only see what you want to see. This is one of the issues what i mean. And also for your information, i'm so happy for you that you are glad that i'm gone. Than you can take the place.

Please take mine advise for free. And do not write something what you do not know!

I hope you are undertand what i mean.

I wish you good luck

--Willem Varenkamp 07:26, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * 1 You better not bring my father in, he has nothing to do with Karate. But if I would talk bad about somebody or would interfere with his business he would correct me. That is the task of a father. Because young people can make mistakes. The job of a father is to anticipate and protect the son against these. But nothing is held against your son he is still young, also I didn;t ad his remarks again, you can do of course if you feel that is responsible for a father to do. But he can't continue doing his fathers job.''


 * 2 If you don't want to answer to a number why are you answering then? Are you a fool?''


 * 3 You always tell that nobody but you knows the reason. Why you don't say it than are you afraid? Leaving your teacher for good reasons can be brave, but in your case it was a ridiculous move and had only to do with your own ego. It is good to go your own way if necessary but than you have to go your own way, don't use money of the club you left or let the student pay to your private account. That is not going away that is staying and misusing. And after you leave you let other people say lies about your teacher, it shows you don't understand teacher/student relation. Telling bad things about the teacher you left and not even by yourself but by your son or your friend from Denmark. And not on a free internet page but on a censored forum, that is not brave.


 * 4 This is my fight because I am doing Genseiryu and my teacher is attacked with lies. On a forum where nobody can defend himself. That is not Brave


 * A fight can be done in several ways people ar attacking and people are defending themselves. In my opinion that is fighting either by hittin eachother or by writing to eachother, either way I will stand my ground if necessary.


 * I don't want to proof anything and I am not afraid.''


 * I don't know I am doing a good way. Only Peter Lee is confident enough to say that about himself. I only can say I do the utmost to learn and teach Karate at the same level I trained. But I am not Sensei Konno so I am still trying and I am doing the best to reach his level. As a Teacher and as a student.


 * I am not agressive, sensei Konno is attacked agressively and now "we" are doing something back and you start crying about agressiveness. You are sneaky, you tried to take over sensei Konno's club but you didn't succeed because from all members nobody choose you to become chairman. And than you went asking for help from others. That is not going your own way that is not brave


 * I am not insecure and yes they are all my own opinion.


 * 5 Of course I have to continue to train hard, and get more experience in life. Therefore I follow people that reached a higher level than I reached so far, you are following a 15 year old younger man that calls himself Shihan, he calls you and your students even his students. Talking about self confidence. And I know who trained harder so don't tell me to train harder.


 * 6 You and Mr.Lee are always playing like you are both big teachers with hundreds of students and many great followers and a very good International Traingcamp blablabla. And than you show a picture and it seems there are 5 adults and the rest is small children and you even didn't join the whole camp, what an attitude. Please say things as they are, and don't make them look more important than they are.


 * Finally we agree that it is good that you are gone. But next time don't wait so long and don't misuse others time and effort.--212.127.137.2 14:26, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Email Bombing
Please do not email bomb me--one email is entirely sufficient! Your IP has been blocked because, rather than making constructive edits to articles, you have persistantly added deletion tags despite repeated requests to stop. Please see WP:3RR for information on the three revert rule and WP:VFD (and the links therein--particularly the deletion policy) for information on the correct deletion process. I am going to unblock your IP as a token of good faith, however if you return to adding deletion tags to articles I will restore the block. JeremyA 5 July 2005 18:58 (UTC)

Re: Blocking of IP or accounts or whatever
I did not block you to censor you&mdash;I will openly admit that I have no knowledge of the topics covered in the Genseiryu article so I am not in a position to decide which content is correct. I blocked you because despite repeated requests for you to act with civility and follow the proper procedures you continued to place VfD tags on articles without completing the VfD process as described at WP:VFD. I would block any editor that I saw behaving in this manner, and I believe that the other admins at wikipedia would do the same.

Maybe I can try to help sort out your grievances with the articles in question. First let me say that stating "these articles should be deleted because of defamation" is not enough to get them deleted&mdash;firstly because defamation alone is not normally considered a reason for deleting artcles, and secondly because you give no explanation as to what in the content of these articles it is that you consider to be defamatory. No one has exclusive rights to edit articles on wikipedia so your first course of action should be to try to edit the article so that it gives a neutral point of view (note that a neutral point of view and your own point of view are not necessarily always the same thing). If you find that another editor is reverting your edits or changing an article back to a biased point of view you can place a or  tag on the article and then state your reasons for adding this tag on the talk page for the article in question. Note that you should not add either of these tags without making an entry on the talk page. If have followed these procedures and made civil attempts at discussion on the talk page of an article but find that another editor is not being civil or making any attampt at compromise you can file a request for comment on either the article in question, the user in question, or both.

Your user page is different: This was created when you created an account at wikipedia and it is for you to decide what goes here (there are some restrictions on the content). If there is defamatory material on this page then you can delete it. If another user persists in adding defamatory material to your user page then that user will most likely be blocked from editing. You are not obliged to have a user page so, as you asked for this page to be deleted I have complied with your request and deleted it.

Your talk page (this page) is different again. This is a place where other users can leave you messages. Unless these messages contain direct personal attacks or profanity they should usually be left here unedited. You may remove other material from this page but this is usually considered bad form by most of the wikipedia community. I note however that discussion was moved from the Genseiryu talk page to your talk page&mdash;I feel uncomfortable that this took place and I think that you may be justified in deleting this content from your talk page (or moving it back to the correct place). However, it is unusual for a user talk page to be deleted&mdash;this usually only occurs if an editor decides to permanently leave wikipedia. JeremyA 5 July 2005 22:09 (UTC)

Block on Dutch wikipedia
You have been blocked on Dutch wikipedia for one day for vandalizing a persons userpage multiple times even though you have been given a warning. Waerth 8 July 2005 22:23 (UTC)


 * Since you wanted me to explain .....
 * A) mishbehaviour on nl.wikipedia for a longer time.
 * B) you received a warning in this case and you were warned before
 * C) I removed the links on Mario Roerings page personally and gave him a warning in Dutch. So as opposed to what you are saying there is no-one defaming you in nl.wikipedia.
 * D) I hope you and Mario will find other places to fight your fued. Because of the silliness of 2 grown men nl.wikipedia is now without an article with regards to your sport.
 * E) I do not care who is wrong or right. You are blocked for 24 hours on nl.wikipedia ... Mario is on warning, he will receive the same block if he continues.


 * Greetings from Bangkok, Thailand Waerth 9 July 2005 15:57 (UTC)


 * The 2 of you are equally as bad. Please stop it. Waerth 16:36, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


 * The fact you are saying this, only shows that you have not thoroughly investigated the whole situation. For example it has been clear from the beginning that Peter Lee had only one thing in his agenda: get the Genseiryu article deleted from Wikipedia. He succeeded in that at the Dutch Wikipedia, after which he bragged about this "succes" on his own forum. He has tried this on the English Wikipedia. I on the other hand never had any vandalist ideas here on Wikipedia and I want to contribute to the Wikipedia community as much as I can. Therefore I took it upon me to gather all the information from BOTH sides and write an NPOV article, highlighting both aspects in a neutral way. Still, Peter Lee tried to sabotage this as much as he could, until he got banned for the first time. He got banned several times for vandalist actions on the NPOV article and on my user page. When the NPOV article was finished, he still refused to contribute to the article where he got the opportunity. In stead, he continued his vandalist actions after the date I removed the wip template (12 June 2005). I am not an angel myself, but it's quite obvious who's the "bad guy" in this case... So, don't write here that we are "as equally bad". This only shows the "sillyness" of yourself, no matter how much you are respected as a Wikipedia moderator... -- Mario R 18:26, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Peter, the one defamatory link has been removed, the other links are normal links to Mario's homepages. So please stop bothering us. Waerth 07:40, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Also this statement:


 * The other thing to do, would be to delete and remove EVERYTHING in regard to Genseiryu on Wikipedia. As long as anyone takes time to write lies, obvious defamatory issues, diliberate incorrect information etc. the edit war will continue of course. If Wikipedia cannot find another more suitable solution to the problem, then THAT must be the solution.


 * doesn't show any willingness from your side to cooperate. Deleting something because it is causing friction has never been Wikipedia policy. We are willing to listen to other people's arguments not to these kind of statements. Waerth 07:46, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * On nl:Gebruiker:Mario_Roering in the Dutch wikipedia there are no defematory comments on your persona. They have all been removed. The links there are links to fora and a personal website. I have no say as to contents in the english wikipedia. Please complain to the moderators here in this wikipedia. Waerth 13:14, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Blocked again
You've been blocked for vandalizing Mario Roering's userpage and for breaking the Three Revert Rule. If you have a problem with another user, open an RFC about the dispute. Vigilantism will not be tolerated. &mdash; Gwalla | Talk 9 July 2005 05:42 (UTC)

Mr. Lee or Larsen,
 * I just saw your cry for help to Mr. Waerth to get the forum removed from Mr. Mario's userpage. Please check your own forum and the insults you are making. Should your links be removed? You really have the same attitude like your dutch boyfriend Willem. First start insulting people and after you get some reaction you start crying for help. What a childish behaviour certainly if you really consider yourself to be a Shihan. We, and I think I speak of most of the Karate population that is member of a National karate federation, do not consider you to be a real Shihan, even not a teacher or a Dan degree holder. Solve your own problems that you caused and stop wining for help. You started, just apologize for your lies and every problem is solved. You are writing stuff on behalf of Sensei Tosa. Did you get this information from him? If so please confirm, then we can ask him to apologize for this or maybe he will let you apologize for him. Does he know about your behavior? I believe he doesn't know and would never tolerate this kind of behavior. Good luck arranging apologies in the future after more information is coming: letters, pamphlets etc. Stop crying.

Edits on Genseiryu
Mr. Lee, again you are showing that you have absolutely no interest in participating in the development of an NPOV article as can be seen here. If you have no intentions whatsoever in contributing in a neutral way to Wikipedia or the only reason you are making these major changes is to create another edit war, then stop it and please return to your own forum that is already full of slandering and lies. If you do want to contribute, then write only verified information or use the GKIF article or your own user page for your mis-information and slander... Thank you! -- Mario R 22:12, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Clarification of issues
Hi again! As an outsider, I have found it difficult discern the exact nature of your disagreements with Mario Roering. Please send me (either by email, or preferably on my talk page) the following information: I am going to ask Mario Roering to do the same. I would also like to suggest that you refrain from leaving messages on Mario Roering's talk page and that he not leave messages on your talk page&mdash;I had intended to file a RFC on this article, but the talk about it has become spread over a number of pages making it difficult for an outsider to come in and attempt to mediate. Instead I would like any discussion of the Genseiryu article to take place on its talk page. JeremyA (talk) 04:55, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Point-by-point, the elements that Mario Roering adds to the Genseiryu article that you disagree with, and in laymens terms exactly why you disagree with them.
 * 2) For each disputed section of the article I would like you to suggest, if possible, a way of rewriting this section in such a way that both you and Mario Roering accept the text.

voorwaardelijk blok
Beste Mario Roering en Peter Lee,

De afgelopen tijd hebben jullie nogal eens met elkaar en met andere gebruikers op Wikipedia in de clinch gelegen. Ik heb hier zelf weinig van gevolgd, maar genoeg van gehoord. Wikipedia ondervindt nadeel van jullie onenigheden, en normaliter zouden jullie gewoon een blok hebben gekregen. Maar omdat de gemeenschap wel het idee heeft dat jullie misschien voor verbetering vatbaar zijn, is er een uitzondering gemaakt, en is er een zogenaamde "curator'' aangesteld. In dit geval ben ik dat. Er wordt jullie een voorwaardelijk blok opgelegd van één maand, die in het komende halfjaar kan worden opgelegd. Het is in eerste instantie een uitstel van het blok, en dus kan deze sneller dan gewoonlijk worden opgelegd. Jullie beginnen weer met een schone lei, met uitzondering van de voorwaardelijke straf. Ik zal jullie dus niet gaan veroordelen om dingen die jullie in het verleden hebben gedaan. Maar indien een van jullie zich in de komende tijd schuldig maakt aan vandalisme, zwartmakerij van elkaar of andere gebruikers en/of oneigenlijk discussiëren (dat is: op de man spelen etc.), zal dit blok gedeeltelijk of in zijn geheel tot uitvoering worden gebracht door mij. Zwartmakerij op ander pagina's dan die van wikipedia van jullie medegebruikers zal óók niet worden getolereerd. Jullie mogen uiteraard wel discussiëren, maar doe dat op een waardige wijze. Ik zal van de pagina Genseiryu Karate de beveiliging afhalen. Ik hoop dat jullie er dan gezamelijk een mooi artikel van kunnen maken, maar wanneer dat niet blijkt te kunnen, zal de beveiliging er weer opgezet worden. Het zou zonde zijn als jullie door onderlinge meningsverschillen niet kunnen komen tot een artikel over jullie gezamelijke hobby. Ik hoop dat jullie mij geheel overbodig zullen maken, en dat ik die voorwaardelijke straf niet hoef uit te voeren. Ik wens jullie nog een leuke tijd toe bij wikipedia, zonder bloks en/of ruzies. Iedereen zal hier dan van kunnen profiteren. Groeten, Effeietsanders 09:59, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

English Translation
Dear Mario Roering and Peter Lee,

The last couple of months the both of you have been having difficulties with each other and several other wikipedians. Personally I haven't followed your disputes but heard about it more than enough. Because you are hindering wikipedia measures will have to be taken. In other circumstances both of you would simply have been blocked. However in your case an exception has been made because of the general believe that both of you can improve and be an added value to wikipedia. Therefore this time a curator has been appointed, me in this case. You both get a block of one month with a probation period of a half year. Because this is regarded a delayed block, the punishment can be executed directly without going through normal procedures. Both of you get a clean start effective from now, with the exception of the probational penalty. You will therefore not be evaluated based on your past. However if one of you performs vandalism, makes slanderous accusations about the other or other users and/or participates in unrightful discussions (personal attacks), this block will be executed by me partially or in full immediately. Of course you may still discuss, but please do this in a proper manner. The page Genseiryu Karate will be unsecured, I hope you can both make a great article of it together. However, should this appear to be impossible the security will be reinforced. It would be a great shame if both of you cannot overcome your difference to make a good article about your collective sport. I hope you will make my function needless and make sure I don't need to execute the penalty. Lastly I wish both of you a pleasant stay at wikipedia without blocks or fights, this way everybody can benefit.

Yours sincerely, Effeietsanders 09:59, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

P.S.: This translation is made bij CyeZ, because my English is just intermediate. I can read and write it more or less, but to be totally clear about this declaration, I asked Ceyz to make a nice translation.

Enough!
This message is being sent to both Peter Lee and Mario Roering. The below comments apply to both of you equally.

This childish edit war stops now! I have already protected the Genseiryu and karate articles and I will protect any other articles that I see you waring on. If you wish to continue attacking each other, please do it somewhere other than Wikipedia. Both of you claim that the other is obviously lying, however this is only obvious to someone fully versed in the subject that you are arguing over. Mario should note that protection is only a temporary measure, and Peter should note that I have no intention of deleting the Genseiryu article. I am requesting one last time that the two of you behave in a civil manner and refrain from making personal attacks on each other either in edit summaries, in the content of edits to articles or on talk pages, or in making links to web pages outside of wikipedia that contain such personal attacks. My assumption of good faith is being stretched to its limits. If you are really editing in good faith then you will agree to take the Genseiryu article to mediation&mdash;please carefully read the page on the mediation process and let me know whether or not you agree to enter this process. If you do not agree to mediation then I can only assume that you are intentionally being disruptive and I will have no avenues left except to file a request for arbitration (please note that I do not think that either of you will be satisfied with the resulst of arbitration). JeremyA (talk) 02:03, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Re: Really?
I think you misunderstand the purpose of my previous message... I do not intent to remove any content from any pages myself&mdash;I have asked you both to refrain from personal attacks, in doing so I made an indirect comment about links to websites containing personal attacks. The particular link that I had in mind was the link on Mario's user page to his the truth about Peter Lee website. My hope was that he would get the hint and remove the link himself. I see that you have taken it upon yourself to remove this link, which I wish that you hadn't done&mdash;a week ago I left a rather strong note for Mario stating that he should not edit your user page, he has abided by this request and I would hope that you would reciprocate. I have also been allowing time for both Mario and you to respond to my message as I was assuming that you were both in Europe and therefore likely to be asleep at this hour (as I will be soon).

You should note two things: Firstly, I do not have the authority to enforce a resolution on content disputes, I am merely able to ensure that wikipedia policies are followed (with access the deletion, blocking, and page protection tools to use if necessary). I have tried to act as an informal mediator but it is clear to me that that approach is not going to work. That is why I have requested that you both agree to wikipedia's formal mediation process. Secondly, I am not an admin (or even an editor) on the Dutch wikipedia&mdash;you need to take up your block there with someone who is an admin there, I would suggest that you try http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gebruiker:Effeietsanders as I understand that he has been assigned as your curator (mentor?) on that wikipedia. JeremyA (talk) 04:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Addendum--from what I can make out on the Dutch wikipedia, Mario was blocked at the same time as you were and for the same period of time.

Putting text under MY name
Mr. Larsen, STOP putting text in articles with MY name in it: "I, Mario Roering consider the Japanese Karate-do and Martial Arts Association to be a member" is not MY consideration, it's YOURS!!! It is NOT according Wikipedia Policy to name other user's names and write texts in their name! Again, I have never ever mentioned the Martial Arts Association and I probably never will. -- Mario R 28 jul 2005 00:57 (CEST)

STOP this edit war over a LINK!
STOP using my name in summaries and using INCORRECT quotes with which you are trying to slander my name again (see karate)! I have never used the term JKBA, what is this anyway??? Japan Kick-Boxing Association??? What does THIS have to do with karate??? I have never used this term!!! According to you, the site 玄制流空手道 (Genseiryu Karatedo) is NOT Honbu. You say you know Japanese, then tell me why it says this on the main page: このホームページは、創始者・祝嶺正献の承認の元に活動している唯一の正式団体である「玄制流空手道本部」のホームページです. This statement says that this homepage is the ONLY OFFICIAL GENSEIRYU homepage of Genseiryu Karatedo HONBU (=本部), approved by the founder Shukumine Seiken. All copyrights are mentioned on that page too!!! On the links you will find certificates, rules for Shibu laid down by this HONBU, the Genseiryu Organization, pictures of head instructors and so on... So stop this BULLSHIT edit war and acknowledge this IS a HONBU dojo! I could say THE Honbu dojo, but I am not, 'cause that would give you more reason to keep vandalizing this article. But I will NEVER stop calling this HONBU, because it's the TRUTH! And you know that! I am not changing 'your' link (anymore), which is incorrect since your link does NOT lead to Genseiryu Honbu, but to Genseiryu-Butokukai Honbu!!! I therefore urge you to stop being a little boy and act like a grown man! -- Mario R 13:15, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Movies
Dear Mr. Lee,

I would like to add a movie of Kumite and a movie of Sansai No Kata on the site of GKIF. I found out that it is you an the video. To avoid any law suit from your site I would like to ask permission to use your movie image. If I am not receiving any response within 3 weeks I consider it to be agreed.

Best regards, TenChiJin


 * Dear TenChiJin, that is very interesting! I am interested in these movies. Can they be found on the net???

Not yet, probably after few weeks. I will keep you informed. Greetings, TenChiJin

Can we try to fix this?
Whilst I am prepared to invest time in "The Geinseryu Question", I would also note that User:JeremyA has also tried counselling both parties, but neither responded to the suggestion that you take this to RfC or RfAr &mdash; this gives the impression you prefer to continue the fight. It is clear that there is unlikely to be a resolution via talk pages, and that the situation has largely degenerated to sterile reverting. Let me present to you the alternatives available, in order of preference:


 * 1) Come to an agreement via the talk pages, or your user talk pages;
 * 2) Try informal mediation;
 * 3) Take the matter to an article-based RfC;
 * 4) Take the matter to a user-behaviour RfC;
 * 5) Request formal mediation at RfM;
 * 6) Take the matter to the Arbitration Committee at RfAr.

Options 1 and 2 show little sign of working. I suspect that, due to the specialist nature of the subject, option 3 would be unlikely to produce much other than alternative forum to fight in. However, it must surely be worth a try. Why not go list the article at RfC for a week or so and see what happens?

Option 2 remains open to you all however. If you can present evidence, externally verifiable, on this talk page to back your claims I would be interested to read it. It sounds as if there must be some way to present both sides of the argument in the same article.

Option 4 is on the way to an Arbitration. It will probably produce comments positive and negative on the behaviour of all parties involved. Reqeusts for Mediation presently have a considerable backlog, but one suppose that, if all the earlier options have failed that it would not be unreasonable to skip that part out. That leaves Arbitration. The Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) generally takes a dim view of edit warring on any article for any reason. It takes a generally dimmer view when all other avenues of cooperation have been exhausted without result. It does not usually determine content issues. So one possible outcome is that both of you are banned from editing either article (under any IP address or account) for a lengthy period; you will probably also be cautioned against making attacks in summaries or edit pages with the threat of blocks if you do. The ArbCom rarely decides completely one way or the other. I would advise that Arbitration be avoided if at all possible.

If you cannot proffer good, referenced evidence in pursuit of option 2, can I invite you to file an article RfC first, give it a week to see if comments are incoming, and take it from there? -Splash 20:20, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Request for Comments
This is to let you know that a Request for Comments has been filed which concerns your conduct. It also concerns the conduct of Mario Roering. You can find it here: Requests for comment/Peter Lee and Mario Roering. It having now been certified by the two relevant editors and having had the relevant evidence supplied, it is now open for comments.

Please provide a response as you feel appropriate in the assigned section of the article. Please keep discussion to the talk page. Please keep things civil, and be aware that any member of the community is entitled to comment as they see fit. -Splash 03:19, 26 August 2005 (UTC)