User:Politis/Archive 3: September 2007-September 2009

From NetProfit
Are you familiar with the NGO known as the "Greek Helsinki Monitor"? Have you ever wondered about their sources of funding? Check this out. Apparently they admit being funded by a "human rights" organization led by someone who openly stated that:
 * Greece will lose Aegean Macedonia to the Macedonians, Thrace and Cyprus to Turkey and Epirus to Albania. What will you so-called Greeks have left? Your little rock called Athens, which is 50% Albanian.

Maybe you should add this to your archives as well.--NetProfit 14:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of all that. My point is that as they have a prominent role in the composition of reports such as the the Human Rights Watch ones (and this one in particular), it would cast doubts as to their being free from bias. I'm all for human rights, however I think they may have their priorities wrong and perhaps their sources of funding have something to do with this. Police mistreatment of detainees, an issue which has recently risen in prominence in Greece, is barely looked at by them.--NetProfit 14:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

неписмен еден
δεν είσαι μέλος του WikiProject ROMacedonia... τι θέλεις; μη κανείς ακομή προβλήματα, εντάξει; ελπίζω ότι με κατάλαβες.


 * In order to be a member of a WikiProject you have to be a regular editor, and edit the pages of interest to the Wikiproject in accordance with the teamwork page, and i dont see you editing any pages in this manner. That was my point, so i don't see how you could be a member of the project unless you do things the way the project states things should be done


 * i was talking about wikiproject ROMacedonia (republic of macedonia)... of which ur a 'member'... get it now?

--Guitardemon666 15:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

About the inappropriate user pages
Your quote: Can you think of a user stating he/she is a fighter for a united (greater) Germany / Bulgaria / Poland, etc...?. Well, as you can see, this user doesn't want part of the Republic of Macedonia, yet all of it. i Nk u b u ss e ? 22:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you didn't think I want your land, especially ethnically purified. I wonder if there's any human being who actually likes wars, killing and destruction. But what should I do, when my neighbour, with whom I want a good relationship, denies my people's existence in his country and doesn't recognize my country as I call it (since ever)? I see we have a problem with the name, but your government (and all the rest of the parties) takes it too far. The case with our eastern neighbour, on the other hand, is going loose and I'm pretty paranoid about their territorial claims. I shouldn't even mention the internal situation here (concerning the Albanians' demands)... If you have any advice about dealing with such good neighbours, please enlighten me. Otherwise, please try to understand our sorry position, I don't see any victims here, except for us. i Nk u b u ss e ? 13:41, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Nice userpage you got there by the way. So we should feel sorry for people who use only racial insults to refer to us and who put a nazi flag instead of the ont of our southern neighbour -- L a v e o l  T 13:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * That's the way I feel. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me lol, I'm just saying that you aren't any better. Not recognizing a nation as it wants to be recognized is way worse than making fun with some flags. Think about it. i Nk u b u ss e ? 15:18, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This goes way beyond making fun with flags. You call Greeks, and I quote: "tyranoid despots, canibal homosexual non-humans, Satan's right hands, genocide-fascist black Roma, living south of my land" which links to Greeks at the Macedonian wikipedia. No one will ever take you seriously with such comments, and you are actually making it worse for yourself. ForeignerFromTheEast 17:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of that. That "quote" is no longer on my user page, I redesigned my entire page. I decided to take a different approach, but you just won't leave my old comments alone. I told you, I was just too frustrated and made some tasteless statements, but now they're no more. And the flags are staying, just as FYROM is staying instead of Macedonia. I wonder if you're still monitoring my user pages and my contributions, Neutron... i Nk u b u ss e ? 17:37, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Does not matter that they are gone. What counts is that they are made. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is good that those comments were withdrawn by user INkubusse, it shows a thinking person and that dialogue works. Frustration can make us all exagerate. Politis 12:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

deletion of WikiProject RMacedonia
You might want to comment on the deletion of WikiProject RoMacedonia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#Wikipedia:WikiProject_ROMacedonia Capricornis 20:49, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Toše Proeski
Hi, sorry I reverted you on Toše Proeski (hadn't seen at first that it was you I was reverting). There's some discussion on the talk page about it. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Macedonia (Republic)
Since you've clearly been here long enough to know better than creating nonsense articles, if I see another similar edit, I'll assume that this account has been temporarily compromised and block the account until you've had time to change your password. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 12:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I too am a bit puzzled. I take it you wanted to protest against the previous attempt by Ireland101 at establishing an article (a POV fork) on that page - but didn't you notice that article had indeed already been deleted? How did you even get to that page? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I can only assume you were following a link to that page that you found on some talk page - but didn't you notice the link was red all along? You had no way of seeing what was in the previous article, since it had been gone for a week. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Lol. That's just like you, being on Wikipedia for two years and not understanding what a red link is :-P Good to be reminded from time to time that not everyone on here is a computer expert. -- Note to self: must remember to wish you happy wiki-anniversary when it's due... :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:53, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Slavic toponyms for Greek places
Please have a look and advise in the article Slavic toponyms for Greek places. I have requested it’s deletion and it is up for voting. I havent seen anyone who has participated in this article to offere his opinion. If you like advise and participate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places#Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seleukosa (talk • contribs) 17:11, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Anglo-Hellenic League
Hi Politis, thanks. You wrote: "Any chance of transferring the Greek Gazette information (spread across 3 issues by Kyriakos Metaxas) to the Anglo-Hellenic League article?". My questions: Which Greek Gazette? Who is Kyriakos Metaxas? When can I find these issues? I think I am missing something which must be pretty obvious to you :) --FocalPoint (talk) 21:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Slavic toponymes of Greek place names2
Additional help and advise needed in this article. It seems that it is becaming more and more extreme. Please advise nad participate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_toponyms_for_Greek_places Seleukosa (talk) 10:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Elgin Marbles
Dear Politis, thank you very much for the interest on the article. I 've been working on it during the last few days but have not managed to attract any responses. I wanted though to ask you why did you change the opening phrase since it is reported in the footnote--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 13:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to answer. I have no objection whatsoever, I just thought that you might have had other information. Please do continue to work on the article. Unfortunately my english is not as good as yours and so far I have been simply trying to include information (I feel that before my edits the British Museum POV was all over the place). In an effort not to remove sourced references, I was obliged to follow the already existing structure although I find it very strange that the article should deal with the legality of the removal without previously documenting the history of the Elgin Collection: how Elgin decided to go through with the removal; his initial motives; the colonial antagonism between England and France; the role Lusieri and Hunt played; the different phases of the removal and the dealings with the local Ottomann officials; the Athenian reactions; the ultimate decision to cut down the "marbles" and take away one of the Caryatids. The ensuing 1810 controversy and Elgin's memorandum; the first years in the British Museum etc. I find it completely out of topic to discuss what would have happened if they were left in place because this is Alternate History and completely unencyclopedic. I would appreciate it very much if you would spare some of your time--Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 17:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Aegean Macedonians
Hi. I saw your comment in talk:Aegean Macedonians and I thought you mind want to take a look here. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 13:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Georgi Pulevski
Sorry I missed that bit about the names of the languages in the dictionary title when I semi-reverted you earlier. I agree these language names don't seem to be part of the title. However, as a description of what it is a "dictionary" of, I think we should add the information somewhere, don't you think? According to the sources, it is true that it was supposed to represent a distinctive Macedonian language rather than standard Bulgarian. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:52, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Offense?
Nah, none taken ;) However, the term „Егејски Македонци“ (Egejski Makedonci, Aegean Macedonians) was around before 1940's. Never mind their nationality or their self-identification, its meaning was, broadly speaking, the "Slavic" population of the Aegean part of the region of Macedonia I just happen to have a friend or two whose grandmothers lived there. :) My intention is not to persuade you to believe in anything, I'm just chatting. -- i Nk u b u ss e ? 18:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course not, I wasn't referring to official documents. I'm just saying that the people here, say, my grandma, who actually didn't like the Aegeans at all (Tito's orders haha), called them Aegeans even before the war. There's nothing controversial about that term; they were Macedonians (from Macedonia) and they were from the Aegean - Aegean Macedonians. -- i Nk u b u ss e ? 14:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Sure :) The Vergina Sun is just a symbol we Macedonians use, that's all. I know when it was discovered, but that doesn't matter to me. BTW, it's really nice :P I thought you knew that the southern part of Macedonia (there are three) is called Aegean Macedonia. The coast/inland doesn't matter. ;) --iNkubusse? 17:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Most likely your research returned valid data. However, I don't believe that I'm the only person on the Internet, and I assure you I'm not the only one here who has heard such info from older people. Probably you think it means a lot to me, but I'm just telling you what I've heard. It doesn't change a thing at all, it's just a term. What troubles me is the fate of those people, whom you refer to as political refugees. You may choose to disbelieve me, but I've already told you: all the Aegean grandmas here were just little innocent girls when their illiterate parents were killed/deported/whatever. I'm sorry, but I really don't think young girls can be taught in the way of communism. :( As for the "topic", it's OK, I told you I was just chatting. I also want to know what you think about the names of the (Slavophone) Aegeans. You probably know that all their original Slavic names were converted to their Greek equivalents. Perhaps more than 90% of them. (If you need examples, just ask). Are you OK with that and what do you think of it? --iNkubusse? 19:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am deeply sorry for all the Greeks and all the other people with a sorrowful destiny. But just because other peoples were leaving various countries for various reasons, doesn't mean that I should simply forgive the Greek state. And names here ending in -ov were not massively adapted by adding the suffix -ski: my father's wasn't and my mother's wasn't as well (who lived in the eastern part, where the endings are usually -ov), both their names end in -ski. But there are a whole lot of people with the ending -ov who live here and those names are purely Slavic (just like the Bulgarian, Russian etc.). I don't see why anybody would change them. Today, I don't know the exact ratio, but just from looking at the names of the people I know, the number of names ending in -ski and those ending in -ov is pretty adjacent. Usually people from the western part are -ski and those from the eastern part are -ov. The only reason for some changes was that the communists thought that we should have nothing similar to the Bulgarians (which is absurd since we're both Slavic), which lead to today's claims of Bulgaria that we're nothing more than Serbianized Bulgarians. That's like saying that all the Russians whose names end in -ov are Bulgarians! Not only do I disapprove of the communists' actions, but I also strongly detest all their methods and some of my family's members have suffered from them directly! Now it's your turn to disapprove of your country's actions some 50 years ago :P Remember, I know shit smells bad, regardless of whose shit it is, but I just want you to admit that your country's shit smells bad just as much (if not even more)! :D And remember this: currently, there is no state in the world that I call mine ;) (which means that I don't like the politics of RoM - and they don't like me). --iNkubusse? 18:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Yo
Thank you for informing me with information i already knew. I am well aware of Macedonia, its history and relations with its neighbors thank you. ;) Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:20, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Irredentism. I do not believe that Skopje wishes to annex any land, especially the rejoins of Greek and Bulgarian Macedonia. It wouldn't work as the people in Greek Macedonia are generally Greek nationalists and completely anti-FYROM and would not accept any annexation from their neighbor to the North. I do not believe that the constitutional name "Republic to Macedonia" implies any territorial claims either. Obviously there will be a few nationalists in Rep of Macedonia who want to annex the other lands. However this is a very small minority and is no reason for Greece to internationally bully and force Rep of Macedonia to do things as it is not done by those at official level in Skopje. I think Greece is going over the top and wants to show how good it is and prove what it can do. If any one is nationalist, it is Athens not Skopje. Athens wants Skopje to change its countries to name to something such as Upper Macedonia or New Macedonia and is blocking Macedonia entry to NATO and EU unless it changes its name. This is really unfair on Rep of Macedonia. Rep of Macedonia will never change its name. Its a part of their national identity. The rest of the world is starting to get sick of Greece over this dispute and they will pressure Greece into not vetoing Rep of Macedonia eventually.

Skopje on Albanians. I don't think that Skopje has anything against Albanian. If you look at things, Albanian are pulling the strings a lot at offical level in Skopje over the Kosovo problem. It was the Albanian who walked out of Govt. They are the ones pushing for Rep of Macedonia to recognise Kosovo. The elections in Macedonia is due to the Albanian part (i forget its name). But generally I do not believe Skopje has anything against Albanian.

Kosovo. I believe that Skopje may be trying to nick a small amount of Kosovar land in return for recognition. They are with holding their recognition until the elections are done and until they have established boarders which suit Skopje rather than Pristina. They will recognise Kosovo though. They are not going to establish boarder discussions with a country they have no intention of recognising. Skopje just wants to get a good deal out of it.

The 1992-5 Macedonian flag. I have used this because this is the flag which the country should have. As it is the traditional star of Macedonia (Vergina Sun) and Rep of Macedonia should have that star as it is a part of Macedonia. The only reason it doesn't have that flag is due to Greece who pressure Macedonia into changing it as it was the red version of their blue Greek version. Flag of Macedonia (Greece). I use the flag as a statement that i oppose to Greece bullying the Rep of Macedonia.

These are just my views and opinions and the subject. I sympathise for Rep of Macedonia. My views may offend some people such as Greek nationalists. But that is not my intention. I just think that Greece is giving Rep of Macedonia a hard time and this is unfair as Skopje and Rep of Macedonian citizens want to get on with their lives and gain European integration. But Greece is holding them back for silly reasoning. It just think it is really unfair. The international community is starting to think this too. Ijanderson977 (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

But why should Greece force Rep of Macedonia to do things, such as change its name to FYROM instead of its constitutional version and force it to change its flag, whilst they keep the blue version? why should they veto Rep of Macedonia from international organistations after they promised they wouldn't? Why do Greeks attack Macedonian citizens just for been Macedonian? Why would Greece like to annex parts of other countries (eg Macedonia, Cyprus and west cost of Turkey)? Just look at these which are from this month. Why should Greece do this to Macedonia? Ijanderson977 (talk) 13:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is an example of Greeks been nationalists towards Albanians Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Slaviphone Greeks/(agean Macedonias)
Have a look at the [] and at the [].

Seleukosa (talk) 16:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Macedonia for Macedonians
In Aegean Macedonia at the moment is only 100 000-120 000 macedonians all other are greeks,albanians and turks.Peoples who is in Agean Macedonia wich speak greek are came from Greece in the Balkan Wars and greek civil war.Real macedonians wich was leave in Aegean Macedonia are in Kanada, U.S.A.,Australia, R.Macedonia,Sweden,Hungary and in many other countries,somone will say this is propaganda - they have a lot of documents of his homes in Aegean part of Macedonia. and also old pictures of macedonians fithen by greeks - that is historic fact.When they will take his homes back they will wont Aegean Macedonia back.You greeks know only your version of macedonian history you don’t now about macedonian lenguage in Rosetta Stone(different then greek)about macedonian kind Samoil and king Marko,Macedonia at the time of Ottoman Empire about Goce Delcev(was born in Kukus-Kiklis)Ilindensko,Razlovacko,Kresnansko vostanie Krusevska Republika(Krusevo Republic) - first republic in Balkan,about I.M.R.O. Komiti and Miss Stone,solunski atentatori - people from Solun who was killing many famous people who was doing bad to Macedonia f.e grendad(or someone of his family) of president of France Nicolas Sarkozy and many others.When all other Balkan countries have old nationalistic ideas Macedonians was have republic and right that U.S.A. like Macedonia.Americans helped to Macedonians apr.100 years ago when macedonians have war vs turks.Macedonia and U.S.A. are friends many years ago.At that time in Macedonia nobody was saying that are macedonian but speak greek – every body was speak macedonian,also greeks says todays macedonians have nothing with Ancient Macedonians – than why in houses of our grandfathers we have flags with sun and lion(also the official flag of Krusevo Republic was sun).My dad say me that I am macedonian and I will say to my sun that he is macedonian.You will now what is the true when greek goverment will stop giveing a lot of money for propaganda – and then you will say sorry Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.30.90.78 (talk) 12:50, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for all comments, they are always welcome and taken into consideration. By the way, there are some people who say, 'Macedonia for the Macedonians, Fyrom for the Fyromians' - tut-tut, how could they?. Politis (talk) 14:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * How did that anarchist slogan go? "Ohrid belongs to its fish"? 3rdAlcove (talk) 08:47, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * shakes finger* It's "Republic of Macedonia", my Greek friend. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's a shame about Ρωμιοσύνη though, don't you think? Well, the Greeks were ok too, I guess. What do you think? Is Upper/North Macedonia ok? 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * And to add an example to your pile, in the 40s you could hear one say "Call me by my name, say Slavomacedonian". Changing realities, eh? Our crowd, I think, is mostly pissed off because of the connection they create, in the consciousness of the general crowd, between past and present (I can't say we aren't completely guilty of that, either, though...so perhaps we should be a bit more moderate, no? After all we're both descendants of people of the Millets -from the same one, even!- not direct descendants of ancient Greeks or migrating Slavs). 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Amazing! Well, at least he's pre-schismatic...Were the rest of your ancestors clergy as well? My point wasn't about ancestry so stop side-stepping ;). Your views are understood, in any case. Of course, by a similar, token, ti sxesi exoun oi Ellinophonoi Romioi me tous arxaious Ellines, hmm? That is, as far as self-identification and worldview are concerned. 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

A little bit emotionalist, don't you think? ;) Sure, let's just say that I don't "generally disagree with you". That being said, I do firmly believe everything else I've said on this page. The middle ground is not always bad, anyway. 3rdAlcove (talk) 18:04, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Florina slavic name
Damn... I already had to spend a lot of time to learn about the situation on Florina, and now I should go to Bitola and spend a few hours more there? Man, editing Wikipedia is more difficult than I thought :) --Enric Naval (talk) 15:45, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Please stop using the "what about article X" argument to remove the slavic name . It was already argued at length why this particular article should have the slavic name on the lead. The discussion is still there on the talk page. If you think that Bitola or Skojpe need to have an alternative name also then go to the talk pages of those articles and argue it there, please. Basically, and just to recap what was said on the talk page:
 * name used by several international organizations, human rights group, anthropology magazine, etc.
 * use of alternative name follows Lead_section
 * the lead, per WP:LEAD, is supposed to be, among other things, a summary of points already on the article, so it's not a duplication if the same point appears on both the lead and the body of the article
 * usage on books and scholar works, see google book search and google scholar search. (this argument didn't actually appear on the talk page since )
 * --Enric Naval (talk) 16:37, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


 * P.D.: I see that User:El Greco also decided to remove the name . I pointed him to this discussion so I don't have to repeat the same arguments on two different places. Now, you see, I already explained the reasons on the talk page, and I pointed at the section of the manual of style that talks about this practice. Do you have any actual reason based on wikipedia policies for removing the name? --Enric Naval (talk) 23:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello
Den eimai akribws Patrinos, apla spoudazw edw... Kai apo Akrata, phgaina diakopes ekei gia kana-dyo xronia otan hmoun mikros. Tpt allo... :) About the diocese of Macedonia, it most definitely existed. Check out any book you want on the matter, Greek, English or whatever. The late Roman administrative system may be a bit hazy in some details, but its broad outline is pretty clear. If you have access to the History of the Hellenic Nation, check out Vol. VII, it has good info (although in some cases a bit outdated by now) on it. Either way, the Notitia clearly states: Sub dispositione viri illustris praefecti praetorio per Illyricum sunt dioceses infrascriptae: Macedonia. [...] Provinciae Macedoniae sex: Achaia. Macedonia. Creta. Thessalia. Epirus vetus. Epirus nova et pars Macedoniae salutaris. Cheers, Constantine  ✍

Interesting
"The Turkish case is different. Turkey markets its former-Hellenic cities under their Hellenic names - just look at their official brochures (admitedly, it does not recognise them as Greek, but as Helleno-Roman, Roman, Ionian, Lydian, etc)."

Not as much as "Macedonia pizza", of course. Speaking from personal experience here? Hey, at least it's Helleno-Roman and not Romano-Greek or maybe "Rum". 3rdAlcove (talk) 19:01, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I was asking about your experience in Turkey. It's something I've heard from personal acquaintances, as well and I found it interesting. Anyhow... 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:40, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

stored
The false map of the Slavic dialects in Greece

At first i want apologize for my attempt to vandalize the map 

-		 -	but let me explain why i did it.This map shows almost the half of Greek Macedonia inhabited by people who speaks Slavic dialects,either Bulgarian or  and this has nothing to do with reality.If you notice the same article of Wikipedia,you'll find that the total number of the speakers of Slavic dialects in Greek Macedonia is estimated between 41.000,according to the Greek census and 230.000 according to the UCLA website: - -	Why should we accept this exaggerated number(230.000) as true,and not the first(40.000)?If you read this wikipedia article below,you'll see that according to the Greek Helsinki Monitor,  -	[] -	This number seems to be more reasonable,since many of the Slavic-speaking people after 1951 abandoned these dialects (especially the young generations)and many others migrated to USA,Canada,Australia e.t.c.So,it looks more possible that the number of the Slavic speakers was decreased during last 60 years.Notice also in the same article that the political party of the Slav-Macedonians in Greece (Vinozito)received 7.300 votes in 1994, and 2.955 votes in the 2004 elections for the European Parliament in the region of Macedonia,if this tells something about the number of the Slavic-speakers.But even if we accept the number of 230.000,the total population of Greek Macedonia is 2.400.000 people : -	[] -	That means,the Slavic-speakers consist a 10% of the total population,if we accept their true number as 230.000.Now,tell me,my friend,how is this 10% depicted in this map?Doesn't create this map the immpression to someone who doesn't know something about the area,that over than the half of Greek Macedonia's population is consisted of Slavic-speakers.Is that fair or accurate?Isn't this map and biased?Even territories and cities where Slavic was never spoken,are shown in this map as Slavic-speaking areas,like Veria,Kozani,Drama,Serres e.t.c.I'm descending from a village 17 km easterly of Serres,named Emmanouel Papas.The village took his name after the homonymous hero,< prominent member of Filiki Etaireia and leader of the Greek War of Independence in Macedonia>,who was born there in 1773. -	[] -	And now i see in this map that we are all ?Not to note what suffered the people of these regions by the Bulgarians during the 2 World wars.Only from my village 90 men died as hostages in Bulgarian soil,because they denied to rennounce their Greekness and didn't stop speaking Greek.After all this,wouldn't you consider this map as the bigest insult against your history?2.400.000 Greek Macedonians feel very insulted by this map of shame and they hope that you will restore the historical truth and justice. -	Again my sincere apology for the vandalism -	Best regards -	--ΦΔ (talk) 23:25, 16 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	:Read the relevant discussions. You are wilfully misreading that map. I'll quote myself from one of the discussions where we went through this a hundred times: "This isn't about "majorities". It's a dialect map, not a demographic map. Showing some place in a certain color doesn't mean that place is inhabited by a Slavic majority; it only means that whatever Slavic dialects are there (or were there), share some distinctive structural features with those of other places shown in the same colour. How many or how few speakers are there, or indeed whether any such speakers are left at all now, is immaterial." And now cut the nationalist crap and back off. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC) -	I'm not misreading the map!The map falsificates deliberately the truth,since it shows Slavic speakers residing in many territories of Greek Macedonia where Slavic languages were never spoken and Slavic speakers never stepped foot.Just watch -	all these maps: -		 -	[] -	IMG]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Volker_und_Sprachenkarte_der_Balkan.jpg[/IMG -	IMG]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Macedonia_-_Point_of_View_of_the_Se.jpg[/IMG -	IMG]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Ethnographic_Map_of_Turkey_in_Europ.jpg[/IMG -	IMG]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Balkans-ethnic1877.jpg[/IMG -	If you compare all these maps with the current map of wikipedia: -		 -	and you'll easily conclude that this map exaggerates the territories where Slavic dialects are spoken.Even those regions where 90-100 years ago where inhabited by Turks,who were after 1922 and the population exchange treaty between Greece and Tyrkey replaced by Greek refuges form Asia Minor,are shown in this map as territories with Slavic-speakers.So,what can be considered as nationalistic crap? -	My opinion which agrees with the mainstream view which is expressed by unbiased professors and geographers of various nationalities,or a !!! map that is grounded on the theories of a book published by some authors from FYROM?I don't think there is a need for further explanation about the relations between the terms, , and .I really wonder how you allowed someone to post such a propagandistic self made map,without to check out first whether this map depicts or distorts reality.If you read about the source of this map,you'll find that it's < self-made, data after a map in Z. Topolińska and B. Vidoeski (1984), Polski-macedonski gramatyka konfrontatiwna, z.1, PAN. cf. Similar maps in V. Friedman, "Macedonian", SEELRC 2001 [1]; and V. Friedman, "Macedonian", in: B. Comrie and G. Corbett (eds.), The Slavonic Languages, New York: Routledge, p. 247; citing in turn K. Koneski Pravopisen rečnik na makedonskiot literaturen jazik. Skopje: Prosvetno delo 1999.> The quote of V.Friedman's book is obvious a very cunning attempt to give an impartial tone to this map,because this book hasn't any simmilar map!The only map i found there is in page 77,but it's very different. -		 -	Best regards -	--ΦΔ (talk) 10:07, 17 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	:Nonsense. The map reproduces exactly the information given by Koneski and Friedman. The map is "self-made" only with respect to its graphical realisation (which is what we are obliged to do by our project policies, in order to have free content only.) The sources were the best I could find. If the map diverges from its sources in some significant detail, let me know; otherwise shut up and go away. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 17 July 2008 (UTC) -	Who do you think you are?Who gave you the right for such an audacious attitude?Did i ever tell you or ? I can't accept such insults by anyone!And yes,your map isn't just diverging from its sources,it isn't grounded on anyone unbiased and neutral source,since:1)You don't give any link for the first source,the book  by Z. Topolińska and B. Vidoeski (1984).Not to note that it isn't written in English and,the most important,both the authors are from FYROM,so an objective and neutral observer could never consider this book as impartial and quote it as testimony in a dispute between Greece and FYROM.	 -	2)Exactly the same goes for your second source: .Again a book written by an author from FYROM,again no one link to this book. -	3)Your third source is this time objective and neutral,the book  by V.Friedman 	 -	[]	 -	where you claim that you found ,but i found only one map in page 77 after the research i made:	 -	IMG]http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn17/kostas68/Scan0001.gif[/IMG	 -	Now compare this map with the map that you created and uploaded:	 -		 -	and tell me if anyone unbiased person will not conclude that your map hasn't any simmilarity with V.Friedmans map.You said that your map  and also it  As for Koneski's information,i wrote above about their reliability.As for the informations from Friedman's map can you explain me,where the hell writes Friedman that the Slavic dialects are spoken in almost the entire region of Serres,Drama,Veria and Kozani,as your map shows?(especially the last 3 cities aren't even mentioned in Friedmans map!) -	--ΦΔ (talk) 16:16, 18 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	:Your insinuation that any publication by Macedonian authors is ipso facto unreliable is laughable. We are talking about their language, of course a significant part of the relevant scholarship will come from them; Friedman, who you yourself accept as reliable and neutral, in turn relies himself on Koneski. My main model was this map from Koneski. So, your meat is that Friedman shows a few kilometers less towards the southeast? Well, if you want to do something constructive, go and find out why this might be. Does Friedman write anything anywhere why he makes that choice? If you can't argue on that level, I repeat, be so kind as to leave me alone. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	FPS' method of defending his creation seems unreasonable. He had asked for examples of maps showing other 'boundaries'. Here, some have been provided by ΦΔ. So now his argument shifts to referring us to 2 auhors, Koneski and Friedman. In fact, other maps from the 20th century, show even small areas. FPS's arguments hinge on the irredentist - something we can assume he himself abhors. The Bulgarians have just as many, if not more historical reason to consider those dialects as part of their Bulgarian Slavic continuum. The map has to change based on all the evidence. I suggest ΦΔ that you modify the map - it has no copyright and reduce it to its proper size. Politis (talk) 17:48, 18 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	:How many of those maps provided are about linguistics? You call Koneski an irredentist simply because he's Macedonian? Please. Both of you (Phi-Delta and Politis) should stop embarrassing yourselves, since it's evident that you know nothing about linguistics, let alone Macedonian dialectology.  Balkan Fever  18:09, 18 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	:Politis, the (tiny) discrepancy between Koneski's and Friedman's maps that F.D. just pointed out is unrelated to any point of criticism that has been brought forward here in the discussions of my map; certainly to the issues you raised. Did you even look at the two source maps? Did you make any effort at all to understand what significance that difference might have? In fact, we don't even have any evidence so far that it is significant at all; Friedman's map is technically amateurish and since he ostensibly bases his map on Koneski's but doesn't then actually account for this small difference, we have no way of telling whether he actually meant to position himself differently from Koneski or not. The question is moot unless someone brings actual linguistic data. Does the Drama dialect differ significantly from the Serres dialect, yes or no? What isogloss, if any, runs between them? If you are not interested in finding out the answer to this question, why should I discuss anything with you? Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:17, 18 July 2008 (UTC) -	::By the way, our article on the Ser-Drama-Lagadin-Nevrokop dialect (which is the bit under discussion here, in case you still didn't look at the map) has a statement sourced to a Bulgarian author, saying that "the Serres-Nevrokop dialect was estimated to include the regions of Serres, Drama, Nevrokop and a small part of the Thessaloniki region". So, yes, we have independent confirmation that it's correct to include Drama within the same dialect area as Serres. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC) -	It seems that you both FPT and Balkan Fever try technically to dodge the essential features of this dispute,which are not linguistic but political.The problem isn't the isoglosses or the differences and similarities between the dialects.The problem is your conspicuous attempt to extend significantly the boundaries of those dialects within the Greek soil,in order to justify the irredentistic claims of FYROM's propaganda about the presence of a  in Greece.This problem becomes bigger,since you use as arguments non-impartial sources like authors from FYROM.You called my insinuation that  but i could say that laughable is the belief that an author from FYROM isn't biased in favor of his country,when he creates a map about the geographical ditribution of the  dialects in the wider area(which includes off course Greek Macedonia).Even your attempt to present the Bulgarian author's view as unbiased is groundless,since he has the same incentive with Koneski,the only difference is that he considers these Slavic dialects as Bulgarian instead .Common logic says that only a non-Balkan and non-Slav author could be considered as impartial in this issue. -		 -	P.S. If i'm not wrong,the message is that everyone can write an article where he can claim whatever he wants,using as testimony only books written by compatriots of him,in their native language. -	--87.202.15.21 (talk) 10:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC) -		 -	The map prolongs into wikipedia an irredentist propaganda. The population exchange between Greece and Bulgarian extended from Florina to Sozople. Twenty or thirty after that decision, the Slavic dialects of Greece were re-labled 'Macedonian', and, in the map, reach Thrace. This map adopts that propaganda. And since it IS irredentist propaganda (the map, not its defenders), those who push it keep changing the goal posts because they are sticking to an agenda, while those who, like myself, who value knowledge and seek to expand their knowledge, are attributed with ad hominem labels. I think there is an article to be written on some wikipedia administrators, simply to expose wikipedia's inherent weaknesses. -	* The map needs changing - NOT deleting, it just has to shrink.

Careful, man
With your insinuations of admin abuse and your accusations of "censorship", you are in fact crossing the line into personal attacks. You'd better stop. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Περί του κωλοχάρτη
Γεια σου φίλε μου, είμαι ο ΦΔ ή Κώστας.Αυτό το μουνόπανο τι ρόλο παίζει?Έχει μήπως κάποια σχέση με τους ακατανόμαστους κι έχει τέτοιο κόλημμα με τον κωλοχάρτη αυτό?Από που στο διάολο είναι,ξέρεις?Τι άλλο μπορούμε να κάνουμε?Μπορούμε να ζητήσουμε να τον σουτάρουν λόγω μεροληψίας,ξέρεις αν μπορεί να γίνει κάτι τέτοιο σαν παλιός που είσαι εδώ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feristos despoton (talk • contribs) 22:35, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Explanations
Not sure what you mean with this. You want to know which parts of your posting I thought were "incoherent ramblings"? Well, all of them, of course.

As for getting me desysopped, good luck. You need to take it through dispute resolution. Ask somebody else to mediate, for instance. Then take me to WP:RFC/U. After that, take me to Arbcom. That'll be fun. You'll have a problem, because I've never taken administrative action against you, so whatever complaints you have, my role as an admin is quite unrelated to it. As I've explained to you, I think, numerous times, admins are not supposed to take administrative action over conflicts in which they are themselves involved. I intend to stick to that and to the best of my conscience I have done so in the past, and your continued insinuations to the contrary are really getting problematic. (The short block against Feristos despoton the other day was when he was blatantly vandalising the page, not for a content disagreement).

Have you found out in the meantime which isogloss runs between Drama and Serres? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Item here deleted following FPS expression of disinterest in the topic and advice to me to also delete his comment. Politis (talk) 17:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Teleio Mellon
Sumfono apolyta se oti egrapses gia to teleio mellon,to haraktira kai ti symperifora tou pou vgazoun exo apo ta roucha tou kathe kaloproaireto atomo.Oso gia ton...atychi haraktirismo,aftos protos ,esto kai me ohi tetoious vareis charaktirismous,alla me mia fraseologia poly anaidestati kai exorgistiki.Kai sto kato kato den anefera pouthena to onoma tou,aftos mygiastike amesos.An thelei na me dioxei,tha chasei i Venetia veloni pou lene... --ΦΔ (talk) 16:27, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Welcome message
Just so, if you want to include the Albanian word for 'welcome' to your list on your user page, it is 'Mirë se erdhët'. Hail --A B X T  • ៛ 16:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

request for help
Hi Malaka,

I'm new to Wikipedia (greek-Canadian) and have noticed a strong anti-Greek bias on several articles related to Macedonia. I've been having issues with both Furper and Beam... who seem to be admins that heavily favour FYROM. I've officially complained on the notice board about their threats to block, edit behavior and unusually close relationships with obvious FYROM POV members of Wikipedia. (specifically Balkanfever)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#This_anon_.28apparently_User:Crossthets.29.2C_is_an_apparent_POV_Pusher.2C_evidence_below

This is a difficult battle because I am alone at the moment, I am a newbie, and as I said to one of the admins on notice board... I feel like someone reporting a bad cop at a policeman's ball. However, I still plan to follow up soon with a precise listing of what I perceive as non-NPOV behavior. I noticed while researching this issue you've also have problems with them. Would it be possible to list any problems on your talk page here so I can add them to my report to show I am not alone? Furthermore... since you have been around longer you probably know more Greeks than me around here. Would it be possible to also contact them to ask them if they've also had problems with those two... and (if so) add those incidents to your list? (and perhaps get them to contact others?)

Where one person could be bullied with threats of blocking... the concerns of many will be taken much more seriously. I will check back here in a couple of days. Have courage. Regards 209.161.238.86 (talk) 07:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I suggest you adopt a user name, take a deep breath, and give it a rest until you have gathered all your facts and try to work out your argument based on solid sources. Then you may present your case to whoever you target (though it might be waisted to apparent Slav Macedonian propagandists). I agree, there is a strong irredentist trend that favours the hardline view from Skopje. But not all those who re-inforce it are 'propagandists'; they might well be doing it in the best of good faiths; good guys (and gals) can be misled in good faith. There have been many forgeries coming out of Skopje since the 1950s and the good guys are silenced. I mean, we have had interesting academic disagreements between 'Greeks' on wiki, including on Greek wiki, but, saddly, not between 'Slav Makedonce' - 'they' seem to gun for irretentist constructions of history (some because they know nothing better, not because they are 'scheming').


 * As for who is Greek or not, this is an anonymous site, so one only speculates at the ethnicity of its editors. I would hate to mislead anyone. Try following up the links to the talk pages of users who you feel may be relevant and communicate with them as if you were signing your comment with your real name and address. I myself, am a sporadic editor (and I dont mean from the Sporades). Politis (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm back. I already created ID (occasionally forget to log in but you can see the same class C when I do) I collected a massive number of diff edits on Balkanfever who pretends to be neutral but is  on record] getting blocked for saying this about Greeks under a previous handle. (not to mention his personal talk page is one big anti-Greek rant fest pointing to questionable FYROM news sources with highly exaggerated sensationalist titles)


 * "No, Assfuckers (has a nice ring to it :D) use it as a pejorative term.

I was ready to pull the trigger on both him, admin Futper, and a few others (e.g. Macedoniaboy who says he is a "proud fighter for united Macedonia on his talk page) with a detailed complaint about anti-Greek propaganda but since Futper managed a civil discussion with me and now seems to be sticking to debating articles (rather than threats of blocking) I'm going to avoid escalating this further for now. ns.

As for the current naming disputing article... I agree with you that some FYROM citizens honestly believe their claims but I don't think that reduces the existential threat to Greece. Communism fell 17 years ago in Yugoslavia and the FYROM government appears to be getting worse not better (imagine if in two hundred years they call themselves "ethnic Athenians" and the cycle continues until their is no Greece left).

There appear to be important quotes missing from the naming dispute article that clearly demonstrate that FYROM leadership are confused about their own national identity (and confusing their own citizens in the process unfortunately). I tried to add this to the talk page of the article but Futper deleted it (arguing ancient Macedon is unrelated to the article even though his own editing history shows him adding an edit arguing that ancient Macedon wasn't Greek) I didn't want to get into a revert war over simply a discussion of perceived facts but since I didn't think those facts should be censored either I thought perhaps you could add them to discussion on the naming dispute talk page. (assuming you see it as relevant yourself of course)


 * February 26, 1992: The FYROM's President Kirov Gligorov, at an interview by the Foreign Information Service daily report, Easten Europe, stated: '"We are Slavs, who came to the region in the sixth century. We are not descendants of the ancient Macedonians.'


 * "January 22, 1999: The FYROM's Ambassador in Washington D.C., Mrs. Ljubica Acevska, gave a speech on the present situation in the Balkans, she stated: '"We do not claim to be descendants of Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and we speak a Slavic language. Greece is The FYROM's second largest trading partner and its number one "investor."'


 * February 24, 1999: The FYROM.'s Ambassador to Canada, Gyordan Veselinov, in an interview with the "Ottawa Citizen", he admitted: '"We are not related to the northern Greeks who produced leaders like Philip and Alexander the Great. We are Slavs and our language is closely related to Bulgarian. There is some confusion about our identity."'

I think the above needs to be compared to that of their current hard line prime minister's recent behavior. He directly contradicts FYROM's own government's previous comments about themselves (that apparently was unauthentically meant to assure foreigners that Greeks were imagining FYROM propaganda and to reduce the issue to a childish dispute over simply names.. in order to get recognition)


 * Prime Minister Gruevski officially meets Prince Ghazanfar of Pakistan] who claims to be related to Alexander the Great.. then uses it as an opportunity to suggest FYROM citizens are related to ancient Macedonians. (and don't get me started on that incident where Gruevski layed a wreath where a picture of "United Macedonia" was clearly present... which also seems to be missing from the existing article)

Macedonian Pizza
By the way, if I put my hard feelings aside, how come I haven't heard about this 'Macedonian Pizza'? :/ I mean, I live here! Can you recall the place where you saw it? Hint: the best pizza restaurants in Skopje are Dal Fufo and Gino's. I'm pretty much ashamed for missing that one in the menu. --iNkubusse? 19:20, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hehe, I was right, you ate at Fufo's (Dal Met Fu/Dal Fufo). I promise I'll visit Fufo's these days and check that out! ;) Things have changed since the 90s, now there are many more places you can visit without getting a decease. The river bank has also changed: now the dogs are lying dead. Oh well, the quay in the centre is crowded with expensive cafes and it feels nice to be there, but not much has been done to preserve the natural treasure or to transform it to a tourist attraction. But we've got potential; as soon as our foreign affairs settle, I think the government has plans for cleaning-up Skopje. I'll notify you when we're ready so you can visit. ;) --iNkubusse? 13:13, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Not only Greek; Dal Fufo is known as a place where foreign (and domestic as well) businesspeople and various celebrities eat. I guess that's why you'll be visiting haha. Oh well, if you see a guy shouting 'Join Wikipedia!', say hi to me. :P By the way, you probably already know the city (I assume you're somehow connected), but should you need anything, from guidance to recommendations, please don't hesitate to ask me! Cheers. --iNkubusse? 11:04, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Ajvar in Dal Fufo?! Jeez, I didn't even know that! And you don't wanna know about Fufo's story. :/ The man was a gambler, probably still is, so you can imagine all the downfalls, despite all his success. Anyway, I like the restaurant pretty much, I mean, how it looks now, but you'll see for yourself. --iNkubusse? 11:26, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey buddy, if you wanna see what has happened with the river bank, here are a few photos taken by night: commons:Image:Vardar bank night 01.jpg (see the other versions). The first one shows the "public urination area" (on the left, by the graffiti), the second one shows the bank lengthwise and on the other two you just might notice the cafes (well, maybe you can't, but trust me, there's plenty of them). I'm sorry for taking them by night, but that's the only free time I have. --iNkubusse? 15:59, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

The WikiProject Greece August 2008 newsletter
The August 2008 issue of the WikiProject Greece newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.--Yannismarou (talk) 11:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Past tense
Thank you for your inquiry about tense. The reason we try to use past tense is to avoid encroaching on the present and (worse) future. See WP:CRYSTAL. I agree that sometimes the present tense can't be avoided. It seems silly to say that Thessaloniki was a shipping port when it clearly is one today.

Past tense seems particularly important for politics. Editors often try to say, "The Green Party has taken over the city." This unnecessarily raises the hackles of people who don't happen to belong to the Green Party. It is almost as easy and a lot more accurate (and informative. We are an encyclopedia) to say, "The Green Party candidate won in 2004 and 2006." Often forcing the past tense also forces the editor to supply facts and maybe even references to support what s/he has said.

I think it is important for annual events to be in the past tense. They will not necessarily be repeated forever. Again, it often forces the editor to say, instead of "the annual tulip festival is very popular" this would be better: "15,000 people attended the annual tulip festival in 2007." It avoids WP:CRYSTAL and supplies the reader with much more real information as opposed to say WP:PR which these "current" statements sometimes seem to touch on. Civic pride stuff.

Again, thanks for your inquiry. Student7 (talk) 14:06, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Republic of Macedonia reverts
Of the three edits I reverted, removing the region from the lead, rewording the vergina discussion (a symbol associated with ... rather than a symbol of ...), and taking the point that the country has allowed "FYROM" to be used and underlining, I reverted all three with a single negative summary. I did intend to revert all three, but the vergina edit deserved a separate summary (it was awkward and did not clarify). I apologize for not making these separate edits. On the content issues, we can continue on Talk:Republic of Macedonia if you like. Jd2718 (talk) 11:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

another fake map
Politis,

aside from the seemingly politically motivated inaccurate minority language map on Greece (made by the same Wikipedian)... there is another inaccurate homemade map) on the Slavic languages of Greece  page. This one seems to show 70% of Macedonia as "Slavic languages", references Thessaloníki as "Solun" (not only by Futper but one of the "neutral" sources actually lists Solun first and Thessaloníki in brackets

I noticed you've been over this with Feristos who also experienced the same sort of difficulties as I have while trying to removing it (being labelled "nationalist" for pointing out the map is unscientific). Why is the map still there? (especially given the Rainbow party results made it pretty clear there are next to no native slavic speakers in Greece). More importantly though.... what do you think it will take to remove these fake maps? --Crossthets (talk) 00:11, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

2.5 million missing Macedonians
At the moment there is no Macedonian (Greek) article. There is only a redirect  to a tiny section on Macedonia Greek region. I think the redirect needs to be removed to its own article to make it more clear their exists a group of 2.5 million Greeks that strongly identity as modern Macedonians... that have their own Macedonian (Greek) dialect .... (like FYROM has a version of Bulgarian that they now call "Macedonian").... and their own flavour of Greek culture. This can be elaborated in far greater detail in a article dedicated to the issue (e.g. provide links to pan-Macedonian Diasporas, pictures of famous Macedonians, etc..). Would you be interested in participating in this? --Crossthets (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Forget about the request. On closer inspection I realized that this is the standard methodology with which Wikipedia handles national/regional identities. The page does seem sparse though so I'm going to try and add more content to it. --Crossthets (talk) 18:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

no Ottoman Census data
(This is a copy paste to save time) I brought up a point there is no Ottoman census data that indicates an "ethnic Macedonian" (but it does list Bulgarians) on the naming dispute page. Unfortunately, as usual, FYRoM supporters try to obfuscate this huge issue. (i.e that the vast majority of their great grandfathers called themselves Bulgarians). Could you perhaps add some feedback on the issue? --Crossthets (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Re: Crunching the numbers
I know about the validity of your source, that's why i did not removed it:). In my opinion, the number is much higher. The main problem is "who is counted?". Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (and his children and grandchildren) obviously isn't. I suppose that neighter is George Michael. Or the descendants of Andreas Kalvos. Without been sure, I think that the source you quoted (and many more around the web) includes only full-blooded Greeks born in Greece. Fair enough. As for the Greek speakers in FYROM, your estimation could be considered accurate (if followed by a source); though the number of the ethnic Greeks there may be much higher. Προσωπικά, δεν πιστεύω ότι η αριθμητική δύναμη αποτελεί το σημαντικότερο στοιχείο. Άλλωστε, καθ' όλη τη διάρκεια της ελληνικής ιστορίας κάθε άλλο παρά στην αριθμητική μας υπεροχή βασιζόμασταν... --Hectorian (talk) 16:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I meant. The number of the people of at least partly Greek descent in the UK is much higher than the official quoted number. I am not familiar with a research or project to determine their exact number. For other ethnic groups (e.g. the Irish) there have been extensive researches about how many British have at least one Irish grandparent; or how many people of North-Eastern England have Scandinavian blood. For the Greeks however no such research has taken place, since, after all, their contribution cannot even be remotely compared to that of the Irish. Since you live in the UK and are part of the community there, it would be interesting if you could discover a source - I tried myself, with little success. I just noticed my previous example above... Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh is indeed a Greek, but it would be quite weird to state that William is as well (on the grounds that his grandfather was born in Greece and raised up as a Greek, Greek Orthodox Prince). But for royalty Wikipedia rules cannot be applied to more than a generation (btw, Prince William is also multiple times descended from Byzantine Greek emperors through both of his parents). --Hectorian (talk) 13:38, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Wilkinson H.R.
A tag has been placed on Wilkinson H.R. requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section A7 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the article appears to be about a person or group of people, but it does not indicate how or why the subject is important or significant: that is, why an article about that subject should be included in an encyclopedia. Under the criteria for speedy deletion, such articles may be deleted at any time. Please see the guidelines for what is generally accepted as notable, as well as our subject-specific notability guideline for biographies.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page that has been nominated for deletion (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Lastly, please note that if the article does get deleted, you can contact one of these admins to request that a copy be emailed to you. Macrowiz (talk) 18:58, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Ερώτηση
Τι ακριβώς είχες υπ'όψιν όταν έγραψες αυτό; Θα μ'ενδιέφερε (κι ευχαριστώ προκαταβολικώς). 3rdAlcove (talk) 23:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Hamas Ceasefire
Politis (Talk | contribs) (→End of 2008 Ceasefire: Dlt: interesting quote but irrelevant to this chapter on 2008 ceasefire)

RE: End of 2008 Ceasefire: Dlt: interesting quote but irrelevant to this chapter on 2008 ceasefire

I thought it was interesting too. If not here, where do you think this quote is relevant? since you also think it’s interesting.

In any case, I’d like to hear your reasoning if I may. Why it is irrelevant? It is a direct quote, and it relates directly to ‘End of (the) 2008 Ceasefire’. I think it provides readers with a valuable piece of information regarding Hamas policy, a policy which they were open about from the beginning of the ceasefire. It provides a sound theoretical reasoning behind the collapse of the ceasefire, in addition to noting their perspectives on it. Wikipedia needs to present all the evidence, and this is a reasonable alternate theory to what is mentioned in that section, which focuses on operation Cast Lead and Israeli forces killing Hamas gunmen. Hamas perspectives on the ceasefire need inclusion for balance.

Thanks buddy, get back to me on the Hamas talk page. Off to bed now but I’ll be back in 20 hours.Martin0001 (talk) 11:28, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Chameria/THesprotia/Rasdie/Vagenetia
Hi, do you have any more information about the name of the region? That was intresting. Also, do you know which area occupied ancient Thesprotians, because as for some maps, they were the inhabitants of Nikopolis, which means, that Thesprotia, as a geographical region, extands to south, like Chameria does.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:53, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Thesprotia etal
On clans, it is not the case in Albania. But, I want to know, not only maps, but even sources, books, etc, that you may have, about the names of the region in different periods. Eg. the name you said Rasiades, when was used, and wou says that is used. Thanks.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I see, but do you have any map that use the names Thesprotia, Vagenetia, or Rasdie?Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:42, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

re: Just to say
That was actually sort of inspired by User:Giggy's user page, before, and I added it a bit of style. Thanks for the appreciation, Politis, and good morning from the Philippines. --Efe (talk) 00:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Greeks in Albania
Hallo, your addition to the article seems very interesting. I moved it to the 'diaspora' section, but I believe the 'declaration' itself has interesting information itself that can com ein handy.Alexikoua (talk) 19:28, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Cheers
Nice comment Hxseek (talk) 10:03, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Please cool down
Politis, I asked you to retract your statement about user Future Perfect at Sunrise. Today, while reading the curren tstate of affairs on Talk:Greece, I notice that you made therea completely unfounded accusation of sockpuppetry. This means two unfounded personal attacks in one day. You apologized later, which is good, but you should not be making them in the first place. Please calm down and don't post any negative comments on editors unless you can at least provide a few diffs to support your claims. Fram (talk) 12:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

New guideline
You asked about the best way to propose new guidelines. I'd suggest that you have a look at How to contribute to Wikipedia guidance to help you get started. If you have any specific questions, please feel free to ask me! -- ChrisO (talk) 19:44, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Notification
You are involved in a recently filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Arbitration/Requests/Case and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee. As threaded discussion is not permitted on most arbitration pages, please ensure that you make all comments in your own section only. Additionally, the guide to arbitration and the Arbitration Committee's procedures may be of use.

Thanks,--Yannismarou (talk) 04:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Log
Don't worry too much about the log. It's simply a filter on whenever someone removes the word "Macedonia" from an article. You triggered it with this edit, where you changed Macedonia to Republic of Macedonia. Filters always have false positives, and this appears to have been one of them. It doesn't in any way imply that you've edited abusively. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Advice
If anyone feels wiki-stress, talk to me about it, email me. It shall be done in perfect privacy. If I cannot offer help and advice, I will gladly read your comments and exchange views. It can help.Politis (talk) 12:02, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

ANI against you
Fut initiated this ANI against you. I think you should defend yourself.--Yannismarou (talk) 14:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Another thing...
... well-meant advice, no irony: if you still wanted to add a statement to the Arbcom page, don't bother. You're late, that phase is over. The initial statements as they now stand were only about asking the committee to take the case or not. That has now been decided (they are taking it, and it will open in a few days), so it's no more use adding other statements, they'll probably hardly read them. If you really want to participate, wait until the "evidence" page is opened. But I remind you that your statements there will be held to a high standard of truthfulness and testability. And you can't then just hide behind your professed lack of technical wiki skills. No diffs, no case. And if you have any doubts about what factually happened in a given situation, like when I deleted stuff as you claim, then I very much recommend: ask somebody before you put your foot in your mouth on the Arbcom page, because bringing forward misleading evidence will not be looked upon kindly. Ask me, even. I promise I'll explain as best I can, if spoken to as by a reasonable person. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Amphitheatre
Politis, the ruins of the amphitheatre are still there as far as I know. You do mean the ruins that are on Budapest Street and Dondukov Boulevard, between some Bulgarian Academy of Sciences buildings and the Goethe-Institut? Because that's where the amphitheatre ruins are. I'm not aware of any new construction there, I don't know if you were misled by the construction activity at Nezavisimost Square, where the point of it all is to actually expose the ruins of Ulpia Serdica via a glass lid. I don't see why the press in the Republic of Macedonia would care though. Todor→Bozhinov 11:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I see. I can't imagine the amphitheatre being destroyed, I reckon it would be under protection as an important monument of culture. But you never know. As for The Ten Lies of Macedonism, it's a good book to make you aware how much historiography in the Republic of Macedonia resembles science fiction, but not much more than that. It's a popular history book targeted at the mass audience, not a serious piece of research. It does its job well, though, seeing as it quickly became a bestseller in both Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia. Todor→Bozhinov 11:39, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I saw it in both counties. I bought a copy in the Republic (gave it away) and another at the National Museum in Sofia. Politis (talk) 11:41, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Re: Ultra-nationalists
I did not use the term "offensive" in my post. It is true, however, that I find the opinions of the Greek partisans -- and one does not have to necessarily be Greek in order to be such a partisan -- to be quite offensive. The Greek government has, for many years now, been getting away with murder in regard to Macedonia; and I was outraged to see their battle being carried into Wikipedia by what could only be partisans of the Greek side of the dispute. As far as giving "some quotes that validate [my] point" is concerned, I can only direct you to my first sentence in my post. Even though I offered it as a fact, what I was in fact offering was an  opinion . It is true that I used somewhat provocative language, but I didn't then and I don't now care. If my statement stuck in the craw of some (probably Greek) partisan and caused heartburn, then that is balm for my soul.

Although I think that I can accurately guess as to what your position is in this debate -- I'd have to re-read the RfA to be certain -- I must confess that I don't particularly care; I was merely offering my outraged 2₵ worth and I probably won't follow the debate -- unless I'm asked to, that is.

Hopefully, I have satisfied your curiosity. I wish you a good day. --NBahn (talk) 15:35, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I have not seen any of the articles/talk pages in question (my blood pressure would probably go through the roof if I did so). What I do know is what I've read in newspapers (I know, reading newspapers is  so  quaint). What sticks in my craw (and thus, causes  me  heartburn is the fact that the Greek government practically invited the Serbians to invade Macedonia; and why? Because the Macedonians had the TEMERITY to use the word Macedonia in the official name of their country!!!  That really pissed me off; and it still does piss me off!  So that's why I went off on my rant (that and the fact that ChrisO and Fut. Perf. were both opposed to the Greek partisans -- those two have unimpeachable values and common sense). --NBahn (talk) 16:13, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. Good day! --NBahn (talk) 19:45, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2
An Arbitration case involving you has been opened, and is located here. Please add any evidence you may wish the Arbitrators to consider to the evidence sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Evidence. Please submit your evidence within one week, if possible. You may also contribute to the case on the workshop sub-page, Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Workshop.

On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, ——  nix eagle email me 03:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Re Diff
When you look at an article's history through the history tab at the top of the page, you see a list of edits with buttons on the left of the screen. If you select two different edits, and then hit compare selected versions, you will see the difference between the earlier and later edit. In order to use that difference in the arbitration case, you would then copy the url at the top of the page. So for my talk page, this is a diff of the edit you made and the previous edit. See You can read more about differences at Help:Diff. Let me know if you have any more questions or if you are still confused. Thanks! KnightLago (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You are limited to 1,000 words and 100 differences. So 100 diffs has nothing to do with the edits you make to the text. You can add as many diffs you want in one edit. Like I can do, , and all in one edit. It is best to draft your statement on a user sub-page and then past it into your section though. That way you will avoid edit conflicts. Take a look at how I did difference by clicking edit on this section. I think that will clear up some of the confusion. Let me know if you still have questions. Thanks! KnightLago (talk) 22:59, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Ethnic?
I see that on article Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2/Evidence you have transferred information on ethnicity. Out of curiosity, what made you do it? Also I 'corrected' mine. Thanks. Politis (talk) 13:00, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Since creating that page I have not touched it. The section on ethnicity was added by ChrisO with the this diff. If this section is not what you are referring to please clarify. Thanks. ——  nix eagle email me 01:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Abuse log question
Hi Politis - I did answer your question earlier. Take a look at a few sections above this one. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:03, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Macedonia (Greece)
The sources you added to that article are a good idea. However, I would suggest that you do not copy material from discussion group pages, but that you do some research to find the originals. The citations you gave are mixed up. You should look up the originals and cite correctly. Include ISBN if you find them. Andreas <font size="-2">(T) 17:09, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I fixed the sources last night, just check if they are OK. However, only one is from before 1821. See also the talk page. Andreas  <font size="-2">(T) 15:17, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't download the book, it is online anyway, and I already gave you the link above. See [here and here. [[User:AndreasJS| Andreas ]] <font size="-2">(T) 15:08, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Final warning
Politis, you got a serious warning the other day for harassment and wikistalking against me, so one might think it wouldn't be such a good idea for you to follow up with the same kind of behaviour again, as you did here. Unless you have anything constructive to contribute, stay away from my talk page, and stop following me around into issues you evidently have not made the slightest effort to even understand. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:39, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

For your information,
 * You, FuturePerfect, dismissed the validity of the European Parliament site, namely this one: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/elections2009/countries/text/greece.htm;jsessionid=CC4F5928B3A76DA0C9DCD612F1961C2C.node2?country=GR&language=EN, by claiming that “The European Parliament site is an unofficial popular factsheet with no documentation of its sources and inclusion criteria”. You accept no evidence to the contrary.


 * 1/ At, 15:19, 30 May 2009,I made a comment on the issue of the motto in the inforbox, in the Article Greece. It mentioned you and the official nature of the EP site.
 * 2/ At, 15:28, 30 May 2009, out of curtesy, I immediately went to your talk page to inform you of this, but found another editor had made a similar observation to you, so I responded.
 * Wikipedia would be a more constructive place if you stopped intimidating, as well as fabricating accusations about editors wikistalking when you disagree with them (it is inevitable across articles many parties are interested and you well know it because you do it to me, but that's ok). Have a nice week. Politis (talk) 10:28, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Requests for arbitration/Macedonia 2
This arbitration case has been closed and the final decision is available at the link above.
 * All editors on Macedonia-related articles are directed to get the advice of neutral parties via means such as outside opinions and Geopolitical ethnic and religious conflicts noticeboard (WP:ECCN), especially since there are significant problems in reaching consensus.
 * All articles related to Macedonia (defined as any article that could be reasonably construed as being related to Macedonia, Macedonia nationalism, Greece related articles that mention Macedonia, and other articles in which how Macedonia will be referred to is an issue) fall under 1RR whenever the dispute over naming is concerned. Editors enforcing a case where a binding Stalemate resolution has been found are exempt from 1RR.
 * The following users have been banned from Wikipedia : one year, one year, and six months.
 * The following users have been topic-banned from Macedonia-related articles and their talk pages, as defined in All related articles under 1RR: indefinitely, indefinitely, one year and, one year.
 * The Committee takes note that has resigned his administrator status while this case was pending, but also notes that he is desysopped as a result of the above case. ChrisO may obtain the tools back via the usual means or by request to the Arbitration Committee.
 * is strongly admonished for displaying a long pattern of incivil, rude, offensive, and insulting behavior towards other editors and failure to address the community's concerns in this regard. Because of this Future Perfect at Sunrise is subject to an editing restriction for one year, and is desysopped for three months as a consequence of poor user conduct and misuse of administrative tools. After three months, his administrator access will be automatically restored.
 * Single-purpose accounts are strongly advised to edit in accordance with WP:SPA and other Wikipedia policies. Diversifying one's topics of interest is also encouraged.
 * Abuse filter 119, as currently configured, logs all changes involving the word "Macedonia" but does not block any edits. The community is strongly advised to consider adding a new abuse filter criterion; any instances of changing the word "Macedonia" to "FYROM" (the five-letter acronym, not the full phrase) shall be prevented.
 * Within seven days of the closure of this case, a discussion is to be opened to consider the preferred current and historical names for the four entities known as Macedonia. The discussion will end one month after it is opened.


 * On behalf of the Arbitration Committee, Tiptoety  talk 21:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Discuss this

Greetings
Take a look at this video. Regards.--MacedonianBoy (talk) 21:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Due to your previous participation in the discussion about certain issues in the Chams article I would like to inform you about the newly started discussion under arbitration that started in that page. I would appreciate your positions about. Regards, --Factuarius (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

"FAUoFPS"
'' moved this thread here from Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/Macedonia, where it didn't belong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)''

Who is this sock puppet? User:Former Abbreviated Username of Future Perfect at Sunrise and why is he allowed to get away with it? Politis, and here is his talk page, [] Politis (talk) 16:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't recall seeing FAUFPS editing here, so the question is moot. (Taivo (talk) 16:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC))

No. The choice of words 'Former Abbreviated Username of Future Perfect at Sunrise' and the contributors in the talk says much about some of the input in the debate. The people in that discussion encouraged a sock puppet related to this very issue discussed here. So who created this [[User:Former Abbreviated Username of Future Perfect at Sunrise]] sock puppet? Politis (talk) 16:26, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Politis, a sock puppet is an account used to edit in lieu of a banned account or to provide "support" to an argument. Since FAUFPS has been doing neither here, it is not a sock puppet and is irrelevant for our discussion.  Please get on topic if you have any positive contributions to make here.  (Taivo (talk) 16:30, 23 June 2009 (UTC))


 * I can't be stopped because I am protected by The Cabal, obviously. But now I must vanish again, or people will understand that my whole purpose in being here is to eliminate all "Republic of"s and "former Yugoslav"s just because they don't fit into iambic pentameter. FAUoFPaS (Ж) 16:33, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

It reflects an irreverent and dismissive attitude towards the topic discussed here. The talk of page of User:Former Abbreviated Username of Future Perfect at Sunrise suggest that the user who created it is Future Perfect as Sunrise, please read this from that talk page:
 * ROTFL. Future, please be careful of sockpupptry accusations (that's quite possible in this situation).--Caspian blue 19:07, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Very nice. :-) Thanks for the laugh! -- ChrisO (talk) 21:17, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Politis (talk) 16:37, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Well done, Sherlock. You might have a look at what the Arbitration committee thinks about that account, and about people who make a fuss about it, here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:43, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I've moved this here, because it had nothing to do with the centralised discussion. Ρε, και πως με κατάλαβες κιόλας; Τόσο καλά που το'κρυψα το καλτσάκι μου.... ;-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Come on Politis try to have some humor, no need for everyone to be a robot. Sure the choice of nickname mocks the FYROM term, but cut some slack to what might be a Future future Pulitzer prize winning poet! :P Shadow mor ph  ^"^ 17:05, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Re
Check [here], and see also the talk page, where you'll see which renaming discussions have opened.--Yannismarou (talk) 16:01, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Enough is enough

 * I noticed that you deleted my entire contribution in Ancient Macedonians. That is not compatible with Wikipedia ethics. What we usually do is counter-comment, ask for clarification and allow the comment to be edited. I will not report you this time and I hope you see sense in this, I beg for your understanding and cooperation and thank you for your attention. Politis (talk) 15:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC) [Politis posting to FPS talk page]

Reverting your posting was the quickest attempt at de-escalating the thing. The alternative would have been to report you for wikistalking and harassment again. Which is exactly what I will do, the next time I see you making comments about me anywhere or in any form. You have been following me around with your harassment now for several months and have been warned several times. After all this, I now absolutely demand to be left alone by you, without any exception. Don't follow me around to articles, don't mess with discussions I initiate, don't talk to me, don't talk about me, in any shape or form whatsoever, overtly or covertly, anywhere on this project. Just stay out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:59, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for you response. I have been off wikipedia for a few months now so heaven knows what you mean. Did you seem me taking part in the Macedonia naming debate that lasted for weeks on end? Answer: no. In case you have a point, could you compile comparative edits for me that show what you mean by being stalked. But please remember that it is normal for editor to meet time and again over articles in which they share an interest. One could also accuse you of stalking me :-). I am sure that reason will prevail. Politis (talk) 16:07, 28 July 2009 (UTC) [Politis posting to FPS talk page]


 * This:, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , is a clear pattern of harassment, stretching from April to today. You have followed me with negative comments and personal attacks on almost every single day when you have edited during these months. You were warned in April (here) and again in May (see above). Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:20, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I made over 350 edits since April (that many?!) our of which 23 were linked to comments by user FPS across articles we both edit... Politis (talk) 17:00, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You obviously keep track of things, but do not necessarily interpret the data correctly. I could do the same with you, especially since your profile was a little dented after the Macedonia name issue (in which debate I did not take part, even though I was asked to), you even attacked Nicosilver... one of the best editors in Wikipedia. For everyone's well-being and our constructive co-operation, may I appeal to your better self and suggest keeping cool, responding to comments by fellow editors as they come and not tagging users ethnically. Politis (talk) 16:30, 28 July 2009 (UTC) [Politis posting to FPS talk page]


 * My patience with you has run out. The only question left is: will you leave me alone voluntarily, or do I have to ask for admin assistance to make you do it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:34, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh dear, I give up (not editing the article I feel most expert about). Good luck to all wiki editors. Politis (talk) 16:46, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

could you please do not change the articul Arvanitet, the define Albanian origin of Arbanitet..!--Gjergj arianiti (talk) 17:33, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Kabyle
Greetings! I saw you asked for an article for Kabyle (ancient city) and I have translated it from the Bulgarian Wikipedia. You can now add your pictures. Best, --Gligan (talk) 11:00, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Relative to your interests
Greetings, a good new wiki-season to you (certainly hope it be better than the last one!). I read a question you recently expressed regarding this, and thought you might be interested in this journalistic source: Newsweek, about the history of the term. Shadow mor ph ^"^ 19:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

quote:" Tito called the area Aegean Macedonia and the Russian press quickly picked up that term", Newsweek,1945