User:Prahlad balaji/Sandbox/16A

Requested move 16 April 2020
IPhone SE (2nd generation) → iPhone SE (2020) – Move warring. Please use this thread to reach agreement on what the title should be. I have no opinion myself but the war needs to stop. EdJohnston (talk) 19:46, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * iPhone SE (2nd generation) is the name Apple has given it, and that seems like the likely long-term title going forward. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:59, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I second that. -◊ PRAHLAD Balaji 20:10, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Move to iPhone SE (2020). This is a repeat of the iPad (2017) discussion; official names don't take precedence here.  O.N.R.  (talk) 21:12, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I mean, it's the name for a product that was just announced. Any other names floating around are pre-announcement WP:CRYSTALBALL names... —Locke Cole • t • c 19:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * 2nd gen. This is proper, given the way Apple uses it. Admanny (talk) 21:40, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * iPhone SE (2nd generation) - Keep the current title for consistency with iPhone SE (first generation). Ghostofakina (talk) 22:16, 16 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support iPhone SE (2020) per iPad (2017) and Nexus 7 (2013). The original iPhone SE should be moved somewhere else, either to the base title or to iPhone SE (2016) for consistency. feminist Wear a mask to protect everyone 03:10, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support iPhone SE (2020) for consistency with other Apple device articles with identical names but released in different years (iPad (2017), iPad (2018), etc.) The original iPhone SE should be moved to another name, probably iPhone SE (2016). ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 04:35, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Consistency in naming does not trump actual naming. At that point you're engaging in original research by using a name you'd rather see than the name actually given. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * If that's the case, then why do the iPad models have years instead of generation numbers? Plus name iPhone SE 2020 is a more common name than iPhone SE second generation, conforming to WP:COMMONNAME (for example, when you search for it in Google, iPhone SE 2020 yields more results v. iPhone SE 2nd gen). ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 04:14, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Doing the wrong thing repeatedly does not make it right. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Move to iPhone SE (2020) as per WP:COMMONNAME, official names do not take precedent — most cited media publications refer to it as the 2020 iPhone SE, and "iPhone SE 2020" has 50% more hits on Google than "iPhone SE second generation" and "second generation iPhone SE" combined. --17jiangz1 (talk) 04:44, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * If you check most of those sources they are pre-announcement WP:CRYSTALBALL journalism. They have no bearing on the conversation here. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Even then, if you search in another search engine (I used bing) and add a custom time range (april 15 - april 18, to remove pre-announcement articles), the number of results for iPhone SE 2020 still exceeds that of iPhone SE 2nd gen. ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 04:26, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * So basically all the CRYSTALBALL sites that didn't have a name had their name stick after the official product launch. That really shouldn't be a way to name articles, now you're just using CRYSTALBALL as a meta source... —Locke Cole • t • c 05:49, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Even if speculative naming has influenced the common name in media, it does not invalidate such a common name. Crystalballing is not applicable as since its already released, any prerelease speculation is a valid part of the product's history. --17jiangz1 (talk) 06:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Actually, it's not released yet. It's only announced. Which is all the more reason to stick to the name the company gave for it, rather than making up our own name or one made up by the media long before the product was ever available or announced... In other words: iPhone SE (2020) is the stale CRYSTALBALL name, as are derivatives such as 2020 iPhone SE. Because of course media outlets without an official name to use are going to try and optimize themselves into search results by using the year as the disambiguation... —Locke Cole • t • c 07:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * What I'm sayings is that even if media biases/speculation has affected their usage of the name "2020 iPhone SE" and derivatives, it does not invalidate the fact that it is being used on a more frequent basis. Furthermore, we should not be arguing on the basis of "an official name", as that does not hold much weight when deciding on the article title. --17jiangz1 (talk) 06:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I mean, it does... we need a very compelling reason to deviate from the name given to a product by its manufacturer. And one where articles and news on the topic are deviating simply to get themselves well positioned within search results emphatically does not meet the threshold to deviate from the name given by Apple to their own product. If we deviate on the basis of those same sources, we are merely contributing to the problem of promoting this neologism that does not exist from the actual product source. —Locke Cole • t • c 08:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * WP:COMMONNAME is a very compelling reason to deviate from the given name. ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 05:45, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * And if you bothered to read WP:COMMONNAME, you'd see it was clear NOT to simply ignore the five main WP:CRITERIA for article names, one of which also includes Precision – The title unambiguously identifies the article's subject and distinguishes it from other subjects. Again, using the year as the specifier is an artificial construction used by news sites to assist with them being found more quickly by readers using sites like Google. It has no bearing on the actual name of the product. If another iPhone SE is released this year for some reason, we will then be in the enviable position of having to justify having convoluted article titles like iPhone SE (2020, April) and iPhone SE (2020, December) or some such nonsense. When the logical path is to use the name the manufacturer has given, one that businesses are using to sell it by, and leave titles like iPhone SE (2020) as fodder for redirects to assist our readers with finding the relevant article under its correct name. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:19, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * When in common usage after the release as seen in |Google Trends, 2020 iPhone SE is vastly more popular. --17jiangz1 (talk) 05:59, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Google Trends is not a valid source: Try this one. With those results in mind, I propose naming the page New iPhone SE since that is clearly the most popular title. Oh... it's not. It's just search results. Which aren't a valid source or reason to name an article a certain way... —Locke Cole • t • c 06:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Google Trends may not be the best source in a vacuum, but it is an influencing factor as it represents how most people search for the article/name the device. --17jiangz1 (talk) 06:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * No, it is not an influencing factor. It is search queries. Search queries are not a reliable source. They are data, and that constitutes original research. Further, content derived from rumors are not a valid source, and that is what most articles post-announcement have been based on (that, and using a name that will help them become relevant to search queries, and is thus a neologism). —Locke Cole • t • c 08:37, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment FYI Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 April 16. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support one article only for the iPhone SE, which is a single product. The second generation of iPhone SE is an iPhone SE. It's not a new model, it's only a new generation.  It is depicted on the Apple website as the iPhone SE (with the SE stylized in a box), just like the first generation. There should be a single article for the single product.  There could be breakout articles (named by generation, not by year) identical to the style of the iPod Touch article(s).  Ref the mistake of originally mis-naming the iPad Air as the 5th Generation iPad, and calling the 5th generation iPad the 2017.  No more making stuff up would be great.146.115.70.68 (talk) 05:14, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Totally disagree with this. The article would be large and they are two entirely distinct products. The new SE is more like an iPhone 8 and the old SE almost an exact copy of an iPhone 5s. There is no way the new and old SE should be in the same article. —DIYeditor (talk) 06:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Furthermore the 2nd generation iPhone SE is a successor to both the original iPhone SE and iPhone 8. --17jiangz1 (talk) 10:09, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * iPhone SE (2nd generation) is the official name of the phone, and given that the article about the first generation is titled "iPhone SE (1st generation)", it makes sense to keep the current title so it won't cause confusion. —David Jiang DB 22:55, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The title of the first generation article is actually disputed, please see the Redirects for discussion link I gave above. I don't think that argument holds water. —DIYeditor (talk) 06:51, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: Wikipedia relies more on third-party information, and a lot of sources (not just pre-release) state iPhone SE (2020) instead of iPhone SE (second generation). Everyone opposing should consider that. ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 07:10, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * They should also consider that it's only been days since the product was announced, and since most of these sites are just rehashing what they were speculating prior to the announcement, they're sticking to the incorrect name. —Locke Cole • t • c 18:35, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Apple mentioned in their website that the phone is named "iPhone SE (2nd generation)," and Apple is the company that has made, named, and marketed the phone. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.253.118.20 (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * iPhone SE (2nd generation) - Whatever Apple designates the new SE as will be the article's name. Eightsixofakina (talk) 17:39, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I second that, not only because it is the official name, but because the title of this article should be in line with the title of the article called iPhone SE (1st generation). If, for some reason, we decide to move this article to something else, then I suggest that we should also move the iPhone SE (1st generation) article to be in line with the new title. -◊ PRAHLAD Balaji 20:37, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The title iPhone SE (1st generation) is brand new and has no authority at all, no more than the one here, I don't know why people keep referencing it. That's why I have linked the redirect for discussion. Both matters have to be decided and if you are going to try to make this a discussion about iPhone SE you will need to notify people there of a requested move here. Also FYI you can't "second" something that has been proposed more than 1 time already. —DIYeditor (talk) 03:58, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Support for iPhone SE (2020) - Apple doesn't use iPhone SE (2nd Generation) mostly in their website (but its still use in the bottom of the page), and considering many other sources saying iPhone SE (2020), I support the change, but keep iPhone SE (2nd generation) name somewhere in the article. OfficialJohnGL4 (talk) 05:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Literally this editors first edits were to !vote here. —Locke Cole • t • c 06:07, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * iPhone SE (2nd generation) - I support 2nd/second generation iPhone SE; its how Apple refers to the model in all its communications; reputable tech outlets like The Verge, CNET, ZDNET and 9to5mac all use 'second-generation' to refer to it. Of course, it's not perfect, and even among those outlets some refer to it as the iPhone SE2 in some articles and 'second-generation' in others, while the 9to5mac link I shared uses '2020 second-generation iPhone SE'. On balance though, I think second gen is the more accurate, popular, and correct name. For the referenced iPads and Nexus devices, the year might have been appropriate because the model was a light refresh of an almost identical prior year model. This new SE however was launched 4 years after the first and is substantively different in design, so I think using 'second generation' won't prompt any confusion like it might have done for those referenced with tablets. The general public is vastly more au fait with the different iPhone models and generations than it is with iPads/tablets. ReverseLevity (talk) 11:58, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Other reputable sources like: The Verge, Forbes, Pocket-lint, GSMArena, and Tom's Guide use iPhone SE 2020 though. ITSQUIETUPTOWN   talk • contribs 05:41, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * And as I've said elsewhere in this discussion, they're doing that for search results, not because it's actually called that by anyone. Meanwhile, if I walk into my local Best Buy and ask for an "iPhone SE 2020", I'll likely get a blank stare while they figure out what it is I'm referring to. If I'd asked for iPhone SE (2nd generation) though, that would have been more clear for them. —Locke Cole • t • c 07:19, 20 April 2020 (UTC)