User:Richiar/Workspace 2

Philosophy article development
Philosophy talk discussion 2/3/07 Request to add Hello I am the user who added the stuff you deleted. I have re-edited it to:

Another way of organizing all of Western philosophy is into two major 'lineages' or traditions. One is associated with Plato and the other with Aristotle (and the Sophists). The Platonic tradition sees man as a rational being with limitless intellectual potential. Truth-to Plato-is of immaterial forms. The tradition of Aristotle views man as an animal of his senses. Truth is therefore only that of physical material objects. The Platonic tradition includes Philo of Alexandria, Nicolas of Cusa, Johannes Kepler, Gottfried Leibniz, Carl Friedrich Gauss, Bernhard Riemann, Georg Cantor and many of the founding fathers of the American Revolution. The tradition of Aristotle includes Descartes, Isaac Newton and the Logical Positivists, Thomas Hobbes, John Locke, Immanuel Kant, Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Heidegger, the Empiricists, the Existentialists, Bertrand Russell and his protege Noam Chomsky.

-unquote. I think it is a valid historical record. Please discuss why it should not be included. I have mentioned philosphers who have specifically associated themselves with the philosopher in their writings or by leading scholars.

thanks, Pythagorus8 20:34, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

In answer to your question, it is not very well written, and it smells like original research. See WP:OR. Dbuckner 20:59, 2 February 2007 (UTC) Hello Pythagorus8 -- It is clear that you are editing in good faith, but you are wrong about this paragraph. What you have written is original research -- in fact, very controversial original research -- and violates Wikipedia's NOR policy. Actually, it is probably more accurate to say (although this is very controversial too) that Plato and Aristotle were both rationalists, although each had his own way of understanding and expounding reason. Aristotle did not say were are "an animal of the senses"; he said we are rational animals and, furthermore, that reason (not the animalistic side of our natures) constitutes our essence. As for your long lists of supposed members of each tradition, they are hopelessly argumentative. These are very disparate thinkers, removed by millennia from the ancient Greeks and they have as many points of contrast (with one another and with the ancients) as of resemblance. I appreciate your enthusiasm for the subject matter, but you honestly are getting carried away. Respectfully -- WikiPedant 21:04, 2 February 2007 (UTC) Thank you for that comment. Yes, that is also correct. Plato represents a certain kind of rationalism, Aristotle of another. And of course, he did not say we are "an animal of the senses". Dbuckner 21:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC) OK, I accept 'poorly written' and will try to re-write something and present it here first for peer approval. I do feel it's important to mention in this article that Plato and Aristotle are two examples of the most neat divisions you can divide philosophy into. I feel the difference is mirrored in Taoism (Aristotle) vs. Confucianism (Plato). The fact that you can align most famous philosophers with one or the other proves my point. It is definitely not a perfect fit. I don't think you can say that Aristotle is not empirical in his view of man as a 'rational' animal in contrast to Plato's immaterial rationalism. To Aristotle, man was still a slave to material rationality of his sense-perception. Pythagorus8 21:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please do everything via the Talk page. The difference between Plato and Aristotle is generally accepted to be between strong realism (Plato) and moderate realism (Aristotle). If you are going to make any analogies with Taoism &c, these have to be very carefully researched and cited. Original research is strictly prohibited in Wikipedia. ThanksDbuckner 21:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Is it "original research" if it's a taken directly from their original works. For examle, when Aristotle says "Man is by nature a political animal." and karl Marx, Heidegger, Hobbes and others say basically the same thing, is it original research to say they shared views when it is my own observation backed up by original sources?

Pythagorus8 21:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is (sadly). But surely all those writers do all spend a great deal of time talking about how man is political in some sense. But for Marx, human nature is malleable. For Hobbes, humanity is less political than other animals, because they get along so terribly, while bees and the like seem to hang out more or less amicably. These are not exactly obvious points, so you can't be faulted for not knowing them. But the fact that they can be made -- and, in fact, are stressed in introductory courses to political philosophy -- shows that what appears obvious to us on first blush, may be in dire need of verification from secondary sources. { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 00:56, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Leviathan, Chapter 17. Paragraph begins: "It is true, that certain living creatures..." { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 01:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Also in reference to the difference between Aristotle and Plato, I think a more significant difference is the idea of pre-natal truth (Phaedo/remembering) of Plato versus the idea of Aristotle that the soul is born a clean slate. When Leibniz argued his "pursuit of happiness (the joy of intellectual discovery/wisdom)" against John Locke's "pursuit of property" Leibniz specifically said that his view was aligned with Plato's and Locke's view was aligned with Aristotle. This naturally leads to the idea i was trying to put forth: that we can remember the world with our minds according to Plato, but need sensory imprinting from the world. In other words, to Aristotle we are just glorified animals. To Plato, we are imoortal souls with infinite potential. The philosophers I associated with Plato shared this view of man whereas the philosophers I associated with Aristotle saw man as an animal (Hobbes, Kant, Bertrand Russell et al.).

Pythagorus8 21:36, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can pick out a pattern. However, the job is to verify that the pattern isn't just some fleeting impression. { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 00:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC) I could easily verify it on authority (show many 'scholarly' journals that assert this), but I am not a fan of authority as the source of truth. The difference that I have pointed out is backed up by Leibniz. What greater scholar could you ask for? The real question is what is your opinion on the greatest difference between the two? I'm sure you will personally agree with me? Pythagorus8 01:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

If you are not a great fan of authority, please give up editing here. See WP:OR, and read carefully. See in particular the bit about synthesis: "Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article in order to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research". That is why secondary sources (scholars of Leibniz, e.g., are generally preferred). Dbuckner 07:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC) So give a precise quote from Leibniz on the subject, and we'll see if it says anything that can salvaged for the article. It doesn't matter whether you're a fan of epistemic authority or not. Nobody is exempt from the burden of proof. { Ben S. Nelson } Lucidish 02:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Often these questions used to be covered under rubrics like realism, indirect realism, empicism, etc. We are all familiar with the famous painting School of Athens with one pointnig up the other down.

[edit] Canonical and academic philosophical sources Leibniz is on wiki a secondary source. I think the sourcing is best discussed by referring to canonical and academic philosophers. We have not concluded here nor does wiki policy conclude, which between canonical or academic sources are to be preferred. -- Lucas (Talk) 17:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC) No Lucas, you are wrong. See my comments (and those of others) on the continental philosophy talk page. Original works by great philosophers are primary sources. Wiki prefers secondary sources, to avoid editors passing off original research by interpretation and synthesis. You persist in abusing Wiki policy in order to push you personal and highly idiosyncratic views of philosophy all over the shop. Please stop it! Dbuckner 18:58, 3 February 2007 (UTC) This declaration is made by as if it had something definite about it, however, it is just an opinion. What we must first clarify is how to discuss this. I suggest we talk of canonical and academic philosophers. The reason for this is that wiki OR does not use primary and secondary sources in the usual academic way, but in a legal/journalistic sense. Dbuckner above suggested in his argument that a journalistic primary source is analagous to the an academic source. The only analogy however, is insofar as one writes about the other, there is no analogy with regard to the real issue, reliability. Wiki considers primary sources as inherently unreliable, eg, a particular fireman's experience of 9/11. Secondary sources (eg, an historian's view) are instead considered more reliable. For philosophy the ultimate reliable source as to a major philosopher's views is the canonical philosopher herself. However, in drawing more global conclusions not made by that philosopher (eg, synthising her historical connections with others of her time etc.) an academic source is required. The problem is that a canonical philosopher is usually also an academic one. I think most would rate an opinion on Spinoza given by Kant much higher than one given by an unknown academic whose opinion probably died with him. In the end I think it requires judgement on a case by case basis, sometimes the canonical, sometimes the academic. Tertiary sources, dictionaries etc., are also useful, but they lack critical appeal, since they are usually not "peer reviewed," ie, they are not assessed openly by other philosophers. -- Lucas (Talk) 00:48, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

It is obvious from the discussions here that (apart from Ben) the people involved have not read WP:OR. Since people are evidently incapable of following a link, let me digress here. The three pillars of WPOR are as follows:

Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought Articles should only contain verifiable content from reliable sources without further analysis Content should not be synthesized to advance a position Which in fact boils down to one pillar (the first statement) supported by the two below (verifiable reliable sources + not analysis or synthesis). It doesn't use the word 'scholarly', it uses the word 'verifiable and reliable'. Verifiable is obvious, 'reliable' is explained as: "books and journals published by university presses; mainstream newspapers; and magazines and journals published by known publishing houses. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analysing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication." Then the policy defines primary, secondary and tertiary sources. It is these definitions only that we are concerned about.

Lucas says" So, unlike wiki policy, in philosophy you can't say primary sources are less preferred nor that tertiary, or majoritarian claims, represent the stronger view." That is fine for people doing original research, for the aim of original research is truth. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Ergo, no original research allowed in Wiki. Got that? Dbuckner 09:04, 6 February 2007 (UTC) From Philosophy: Talk