User:Sentriclecub/archived cg

sentriclecub: Welcome guys, please guess your move here so I don't have to go to the main page as often. Also, can someone tell me how to create a hypertext link to the GMT main page? Other question--does putting around an word set it in the other color? I know html, does html work on my forum page?

Also reminding those who participate. All else aside, a "guess the move" is an excellent training tool and here's your chance to play along against a Corresopndece grandmaster!!!

Also, if you come accross a great move for black while deciding on a vote--don't keep it to yourself! Share it here!! Enjoy!!!

Also, I'm glad to be a part of the world team, I wish I was more involved on the GMYS game, and hope to make up for it here.

Thanks Sep-18-07

delete   zanshin: As you have figured out, you can emphasize text by surrounding it in angle brackets. The convention (except for ;-) is to emphasize text you are replying to so that your own text is in black. HTML does not work on CG, but check the tips to find tricks that do: Kibitzing Tricks Sep-18-07

delete   zanshin: I almost forgot to vote...I'm torn between Qe8 and Kh8. OE favors Kh8, but OTB, I would play Qe8, so I'll go with Kh8 just to make the vote more interesting. Sep-20-07 delete   mworld: FWIW - put me down for h6.

Sep-20-07

delete   imag: I vote for 9...Kh8. I expect GMT to follow Bets-Malaniuk game. Sep-21-07 delete   Stonehenge: I don't know why you've put me down for 9...h6. I only said it was interesting. If I were black I would play 9...Qe8. Sep-21-07

delete   RandomVisitor: A knight on the rim is dim. He will play 9...Nc7. Sep-21-07

delete   whiteshark: I have no idea Sep-21-07 delete   lonepsycho: I believe he will play 9. ... Kh8. Sep-21-07

delete   Waitaka: 9...Kh8 Sep-21-07 delete   tensor: 9....Qe8 (doubting about it) Sep-21-07

delete   twinlark: 9...h6 Sep-22-07

delete   OhioChessFan: ....c5 Sep-22-07

delete   Tabanus: 9...h6

LOL Sep-24-07

delete   whatthefat: I'd like to change to 9...h6, thanks. Sep-25-07

delete   rinus: I'm doubting 60% 9...Nc7 ; 40% 9...h6 and if he gets wild 100% 9...c5. I believe he's not wild yet so put me down for 9...Nc7. Sep-25-07

delete   kutztown46: Please change my vote to 9...h6. On the World team, this is known as . Sep-25-07

delete   not yet a patzer: Hey I don't see a link to the GMT Main Page on your profile yet. Just go to that page, copy the URL right out of the address bar and paste it into your profile or into a Kibitz. Like this: Chessgames Challenge: The World vs G Timmerman, 2007

I know I'll never ever make it to the "patzer" level with this sort of thinking, but I kind of like  for black.

(And Qxb6!! for white.)

Oct-01-07

delete   zanshin: I vote 10...Qe8 Oct-02-07

delete   sentriclecub: ______________


 * 9...Kh8--(5 votes) *imag *Zanshin *Lonepsycho *Waitaka *Boomie

9...Qe8--(4 votes) Patzer2 Hugin Stonehenge Tensor

9...h6---(7 votes) mworld kwid Thorsson Twinlark Tabanus WhatTheFat Kutztown46

9...c5---(2 votes) sentriclecub OhioChessFan

9...Nc7--(2 votes) RandomVisitor Rinus

9...Qb6--(1 votes) Not_Yet_a_Patzer

Oct-02-07

delete   imag: I vote for 10...Nc7 Oct-02-07 delete   mworld: put me down for 10...Nc7

btw sentriclecub - i appreciate the geek posts on the computer eval; i found them very interesting to read this morning and I feel I understand the computer spitouts some ppl post better as a result. Oct-02-07

delete   Waitaka: 10...Nc7 Oct-02-07

delete   OhioChessFan: ..............Nc7 Oct-03-07

delete   rinus: It's just my feeling that <10...Nc7> is his best move. But it's my guess, he will play <10...Qe8> (to teach Korchnoi/us a lesson)

We'll have to find a better move as <11.b4> then. Oct-04-07

delete   whatthefat: 10...Qb6, although I really hope I'm wrong. Oct-04-07

delete   Artar1: 10...Qe8 Oct-04-07

delete   cornflake: I'm pretty sure Timmerman will play 10...Qe8 as it is in keeping with his style of play and his repertoire. Oct-04-07 delete   kkshethin: I Think Timmerman is going to play 10...Qb6. He will use the place vacated by us Oct-04-07

delete   TheDestruktor: 10...Qe8 Oct-04-07

delete   zanshin: I voted for 10...Qe8 earlier because I think GMT is just playing the book. Admittedly, at this point, the sample size is getting really small (Opening Explorer) I feel that the World Team in general treats these games much more seriously than the GMs. So despite all our analyses, thoughts, second thoughts, this is business as usual for GMT. I would be pleasantly surprised to be proven wrong if indeed he put the effort to come up with a novelty just for us (as we are trying to do very hard for him). Oct-04-07

delete   zanshin: OK, I was wrong ... he played 10...Nc7. Verrrry interesting! Oct-04-07

delete   sentriclecub: GUESS THE MOVE WINNERS (from my forum)

10... Nc7 *Boomie* *Imag* *Waitaka* *OhioChessFan* *Sentriclecub*

That is two weeks in a row that Boomie Imag and Waitaka have guessed correctly. Oct-04-07 delete   mworld: I guess I don't get to be included in the Nc7 group : / Oct-04-07

delete   zanshin:  I would demand a recount ... but I'm from Florida ;-) Oct-05-07

delete   sentriclecub: You're in Mworld, i upddated Oct-05-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: You commented on the GMT game forum:  While you're being nice to people's feelings by not pointing out the specific posts, I think that for the overall good, debunking them in detail would be more useful.

MAJ, after verifying that I did not post anything on GMT game forum in the past 2 days :-) Oct-07-07

delete   kwgurge: 11...Bd7 Oct-07-07

delete   zanshin: 11...Bd7, 11...Qe8, 11...Bd7, 11...Qe8, eenie meenie ... 11...Qe8 Put me down for 11...Qe8 but I reserve the right to pull a chancho Oct-07-07

delete   Rook4Sale: Put me down for 11...c5. I think that may be the mostannoying move for White to deal with here. Oct-07-07

delete   Artar1: 11...Bd7 Oct-07-07

delete   twinlark: 11...Bd7, also with chancho rights. Oct-07-07

delete   Open Defence: 11...cxd5 Oct-08-07

delete   Waitaka: 11...c5 Oct-08-07

delete   sentriclecub: **** 10... Nc7 Boomie Imag Waitaka OhioChessFan Sentriclecub Mworld ****

Oct-08-07

delete   imag: In my opinion 11...Bd7 Oct-08-07

delete   rinus: Hoping: 11...Bd7 Guessing: 11...c5 Oct-08-07

delete   OhioChessFan: 11...Qe8 Oct-08-07

delete   whatthefat: 11...cxd5 from me. Oct-08-07

delete   technical draw: Guess the move: TD calls 11..e5!

Oct-08-07

delete   cornflake: There's no question he'll play 11...c5 Oct-08-07 delete   Aurora: 11...Bd7 Oct-08-07 delete   tensor: 11....c5 for sure Oct-08-07

delete   RandomVisitor: 11...Bd7 Oct-08-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: Hey, thanks for the long message on my forum. I'll have to think a bit before responding to your ideas... Oct-08-07

delete   ajile: 11..c5 Oct-09-07

delete   Touch of Knight: 11...Bd7 Oct-09-07

delete   MindCtrol9: I think the black best move is 11. ... Ne4.There is another good move 11. ...Bd7 which is very good in my modest opinion,but it should not be the best move because is passive in this position giving white another extra tempo-I dont know if everybody understands-.Now,with 11. ...Ne4,black is attacking,and at the same time it is trying to complicate the game(this is possible because the move of the Queen to b3 and a3)to its favor.That is what I think. Oct-09-07 delete   Elixir of Life: I really like your analysis tree idea. However, I have one major question: how will you set up the system. I mean, what infrastructure do we have to allow for a data tree? How are we gonna organize it? Oct-09-07

delete   kutztown46: My guess is 11...Bd7.

I do not fully understand how the analysis tree idea would be implemented. Do we have the tools we need, or do we need more help from cg.com?

Wasn't there something like that in place for the famous Kasparov vs. the World game?

In any event, I support any idea that would better organize our efforts, even if it would obsolete the forum system and put me out of a job. The team comes first. Oct-09-07

delete   zanshin: Can I make a suggestion? I would find it useful if you had a fen diagram of the current position in your header. As is, I find myself switching back and forth between your forum and the main one as I try to visualize the moves supported by other members of the Team. Now I realize I'm getting old and my memory is not what it once was. Others might not need it, but it would sure help old guys like me ;-) Oct-09-07

delete   zanshin: I think it's appropriate to discuss alternative moves here especially ones that are brought up during voting. I have done a quick analysis of 11...Ne4 and it does not look too good for Black. At 18-ply, Fritz gives the best line as:

1. (0.87): 12.Nxe4 fxe4 13.Ng5 Qe8 14.Nxe4 Bg4 15.Qd3 cxd5 16.cxd5 Rc8 17.h3 Bf5

After 13.Ng5, Black cannot hold on to the e-pawn:

click for larger view Oct-09-07

delete   kwid: C5 - Below is my assessment or reasons why.

c6 - c5 is blacks only hope to keep the pawn structure temporarily closed avoiding dxc6 which opens up the position where the amount of available computing power is trump.

Since blacks main objective derived from his early opening play is to menace whites king position with pawn to f5 - f4 opening the f-file or pawn g6 -g5 and starting a mating attack assisted by his queen via the squares e8 to g6 or h5.

This plan requires first to prevent white the chance to open the center otherwise any kingside pawn moves could turn out to be a liability of a weak pawn structure when reaching into the endgame phase.

Placing the knight on a6 signalled a potential advancing of the b-pawn to maintain the threat of a two frontal attack. Which comprised of Rb8, Bd7,Nc7 pawn a6 and Qe8 forcing an opening of the queenside if required. This set up serves as an alternate plan in case the king attack stalls. It also helps to mislead white deflecting forces away from the kingside or placing them in a compromised or un-coordinate position.

To reach his main objective which is an all out attack on whites king, he must secure both the centre and the queenside before committing himself on the kingside, thus locking the centre with c5 is accomplished.

Oct-09-07

delete   sentriclecub:  GoogleApps It has features such as a file which dozens of people can modify in real-time. It is in real-time and therefore updated every second. Oct-09-07

delete   sentriclecub: For anyone who wants a glimpse into the analysis tree and how it is feasible. CHECK THIS OUT!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRqU...

Amazing! Oct-09-07

delete   zanshin:  I watched it. I'll admit it's an interesting idea, but let me play the devil's advocate and ask some questions. What format did you have in mind, a spreadsheet or word processor? I see how googleapps might improve collaboration, but I don't see which format lends itself readily to a data tree.

It seems that you have a document administrator (presumably you) who then authorizes participants by inviting email addresses. How do you intend to manage this? And how do you propose to show the results to the Team? some sort of variations index that and  have done in the past?

I don't mean any of this as criticism, just questions to help me understand. Oct-09-07

delete   zanshin: I just read your post on the main forum. I was assuming that your data tree proposal was to complement rather than replace the forum system. As such, there will be a few more problems with this approach. As a Team, I find that most members will hear out new ideas and try to keep an open mind. During this game, there was a proposal to use an external forum system. It was discussed, but ultimately not accepted. I feel that your proposal may encounter similar resistance. First, although admittedly imperfect, we have used the forum system for quite some time and with success. On the other hand, I have only a vague idea of your data tree. Others may have a better idea, but I'm sure I'm not the only one with questions, e.g., can you post discussions not related to evaluations? (There is already a faction within the Team that wants a no-engine forum.)

If you intend to use googleapps instead of the forums, then the administrator holds quite a lot of power in granting user access. Don't you agree? This is in contrast to the forums where control is decentralized. Another factor to consider is loyalty to CG. I was somewhat surprised to learn that I was not the only one who felt some obligation to use the tools that CG has provided for us.  went so far as to say we needed to include CG in all discussions regarding the use of facilities outside those they have provided.

I suggest you consider a scaled-down version of your proposal (so that you don't have to ask email addresses from everyone on the Team) and treat it as another forum to complement the current system. I think you will have more success attracting like-minded members than trying to convince the entire Team to switch boats midstream. Oct-09-07

delete   not yet a patzer: 11...Qd7 Oct-09-07

delete   not yet a patzer: The forum system works fine. If analysis is posted on the main page for all to monitor and then on the applicable forum so it can be easily located, it is a very efficient system. I can't see how Google Docs could work for this application. Even though I am a bean head and have never suggested a line to the World, I like knowing that, in a moment of brilliancy, I can.

If passwords are limited to the main contributors then what do we bean heads do? And if you are going to post a password on the main page, then you will have bean heads editing the lines!!

Actually, to take something that tannabus or artar1 or hugin have spent hours and house on and posted to Google Docs and turn into gibberish would be kind of fun!!

Yeah, this forum system stinks! Google Docs! for me. Oct-09-07 delete   mworld: Hello Sentricle - please put me down for Qe8.

Oct-09-07

delete   kutztown46: : I have now watched the video and read 's comments, with which I agree completely. I did not realize that you were advocating an external system. I think we should lobby cg.com to improve the tools they give us, but I think we should work within the framework provided, and find ways to optimize what we have. I think you have a lot of energy and enthusiasm. I hope you stick with the team. Once the team gets to know you better, your ideas will gain greater acceptance. Oct-10-07

delete   ZeroOne: Hey, I like your ideas of a data tree. I think one of the most important features it should have is that it should be able to recognize transpositions. Say forums like 1.e4 and 1.Nf3 are established. If the game goes on 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3, then the results of the 1.Nf3 forum have been abandoned long time ago, even though there may be perfectly valid lines that just went 1.Nf3 e5 2.e4. So this data tree should be able to recognize these situations, in other words the positions should not depend on their past. Oct-12-07

delete   sentriclecub: Hi ZeroOne, would you please enable your chessforum? I'd like to post answers there and contact you for ideas over the next few days. My idea (which I haven't unveiled yet) will actually list all the documents by their FEN.

That means two different paths can lead to the same position.

If you want to review a line, the appropriate document is named by its FEN. Therefore, avoiding transpositions can't be done. My data-tree system will automatically be more effecient by this one feature alone. All documents will be named their FEN Oct-12-07

delete   sentriclecub: Guess-the-move ______________

11...Bd7 kwSurge Artar1 Twinlark Sentriclecub Imag Aurora RandomVisitor TouchOfKnight kutztown46

11...Qe8 Zanshin OhioChessFan mWorld

11...Qd7 NotYetaPatzer

11...c5 Rook4Sale Waitaka Rinus cornflake Tensor ajile

11...cxd5 Opendefence whatthefat

11...e5 TechnicalDraw kwid

11...Ne4 MindCtrol9

________________

- Oct-12-07

delete   ZeroOne: sentricleclub: Certainly, I didn't realize I have to specifically enable it... It would be better if it was on by default, I think. Indexing by FEN was what I had in mind, too.

I discovered there is a ready set of of chess-related PHP functions at http://pear.php.net/package/Games_C... That, combined with some database, should be a good starting point.

Of course, PHP is just my preferred language, you may have thought of something completely different, perhaps Java, Ruby or Python... this all assuming that the data tree was made from scratch and not based on, say, the Chessgames.com Opening Explorer, which, given its proprietary nature, seems unlikely. zanshin:  You're a Gator? Well, why didn't you say so! Unlike most of my fellow Tallahasseeans, I'm partial to the Gators because my daughter goes there. If you had mentioned this earlier, I'd have been much more receptive to your ideas ;-)

OK, all joking aside ... and I were reacting mostly to your post on the main forum where it seems you were advocating replacement of the forum system with googleapps technology. Honestly, I can't see this happening, no matter how good it is .. we just don't know it well enough to adopt while we're in the middle of a highly contested game. Your current description of the data tree is more of what I had in mind: .

As long as you're planning to use the data tree to complement the forum system, you will not find much resistance. You might not find as much interest as you hope, but nobody will ask you to stop. I'll warn you though that I think there's a lot of work in what you describe. did an index of variations, later maintained by  (a potential Gator I might add). It took them many hours over many nights. But I don't want to dampen your obvious enthusiasm. The Team welcomes new ideas and appreciates efforts such as this. I wish you luck! Oct-12-07

delete   ZeroOne: sentricleclub: I look forward to testing your data tree. :) Just be careful what you promise though, copying all lines from CG into another system is a huge task.... Oct-12-07

delete   sentriclecub: not really that hard, just gotta cruise the forums twice a day. Put each line to its corresponding node, i can do it. Oct-13-07

delete   zanshin: Will you assign equal weights to the different lines? There should be some way to distinguish a 32-ply RV-Rybka line from a 15-ply Chessmaster (no offense to CM). Oct-13-07

delete   ZeroOne: I was thinking of a system where each line would be put into all the nodes that it crosses. The first node might have a comment like "Beginning of Rybka 25-ply analysis rated as +0.41", the second "Rybka 25-ply analysis, 2nd ply, rated as +0.41" and the last one "the final move of Rybka 25-ply analysis rated as +0.41" Oct-13-07

delete   sentriclecub: Higher priority nodes get more attention. But also popular moves will get more attention also, (no way to avoid this) The tracker-directory document, I'm debating how much "glance material" to give for each move.

Just as the opening-explorer tells you the following information next to each move "glance material" such as # of moves in database, white win/draw/loss %, and the order of the moves even tells you (can't remember which offhand) either the decending order of winning% or decending #of games in database.

What I hope others to think brilliant about the tracker-directory is that FEN's will be listed in decending order of hybrid human-computer eval!

The tracker-directory will show the best move for every depth in decending order, based on how our team feels is strongest. That way the attention will focus to disproving the "best move" or arguing for a lower move to be best.

Yeah, I would like to get suggestions from other people on this issue. I personally like Navy blue for "25 depth Rybka line"

I dont know how yet, but I'll also have a CUMULATIVE node count for an entire 1st-level move. For example, if it is 12. Rb1 against 12. dxc6, I'll add the cumulative node count for every position behind it as well, since it shows how much work is behind a line.

For example

12. Rb1 r2q1r1k/ppn1p1bp.doc (1300M nodes + 455M distal nodes)

-12...Qc8 2bp1np1/5pB1.doc (300M nodes + 7M subtree nodes)

--13. Bf4 5pB1/2P5/Q1N2NP1/PP2PPBP/R2R2K1.doc (0M nodes)

--13. Be3 ppn1p1bp/2bp1np1/5pB1/2P5.doc (7M nodes)

-12...Qe8 p1/5pB1/p3qk5.doc (60M nodes + 88M subtree nodes)

--13. Qb3 r2N2NP1/PP2PPBP/R2R2K1.doc (38M nodes)

--13. Be3 ppn1p1bp/2bp1/p2q.doc (50M nodes)

I'll pull from my course in economics to answer how to reflect differences between chessmaster vs rybka 2.3.2 vs etc...

You have to figure out a index which can set the two equal to each other. This answer is most creative. Make a match between chessmaster and Rybka.

Let the time controls be X seconds per move for Chessmaster.

Let Rybka have Y seconds per move.

Turn pondering off (that is they aren't allowed to think during opponent's move).

Adjust the values of X and Y until they are roughly drawn against each other (or equal amount wins to losses). Tweak X and Y for several games until you create a virtual tie.

Now you have to multiply X by chessmaster's node-speed.

Multiply Y by Rybka's nodespeed.

Now you divide both sides by the smaller side.

This is your index number. To interpret the index number, it is the conversion factor for converting any quantity of chessmaster nodes into the Equivalent number of Rybka nodes.

To make sure you understand it, if chessmaster gets 30 seconds per move and rybka gets 10 seconds per move and they repeatedly draw, occasionally win, and occasionally lose as often as they win. And if Rybka performs at 150 kN/S and chessmaster is 175 kN/s, then the index would equal 3.5 (in Rybka's favor) which can be interpreted that for uniformity in data (a mandate under my data-tree system) any Node-count posted would be adjusted up or down to its "rybka equivalent" that way people can compare information meaningfully. That's why scientists stick to SI units. Oct-13-07

delete   sentriclecub:  Glad you pointed that out, that means you see an important issue.

By ordering the moves in the tracker-directory in decending ordering. (good moves at top, decending thereafter) then a 27 ply 1st-level eval (RV's computing power surpasses mine by alot) should match the "top response" for at least the first 2-3 ply of the branch of the data-tree which corresponds to best ply by both sides. Also, the data-tree can potentially go deeper than RV's rybka! If RV's Rybka #1-machine is 27-ply deep for move 12. Rb1 then we could beat it by doing 25-ply analysis for EVERY possible (and likely) position starting at move 13... black-to-move. (which is 3 ply after the ply which RV's Rybka is at).

How do we know every possible 13.5'th move? It is LISTED ON THE TRACKER-DIRECTORY!!!

for a 1x4x4x4x4 tracker-directory, there are 64 positions which are 3-ply from the root-node.

Of these 64, 10% of them are transpositioned out. (since the tracker directory lists/links the FEN documents, people are ALWAYS rerouted to transpositions whether they know it or not) because FEN are unambiguous, and thats why I chose to name every node by a unique FEN that it represents.

As my guess-the-move forum has shown, GMT never picked the 5th-most-guessed-move!

9 out of 24-voters (our #1 pick) guessed move #11

5 out of 21 voters (our #2 pick behind h6 which had 7 votes) gussed his move #9

5 out of 13 voters (our #1 pick) guessed move #9 for GMT

Can you say that 50 people posting 25-ply analysis per day to a unique node? Talk about Horizon!!!

I am capable of reaching 25-ply for 4 lines on one computer in about 24 hours. I have 4 computers.

And remember, the data-tree is filled in where the priority is highest. That means that are data-tree is likely to be 1x4x4x4x4 with the top two nodes branching 4x4x4x4x4.

This is why I'm so enthusiastic about bringing a data-tree system to this team. All someone has to do is "call a node" on the main forum so other people know not to duplicate his analysis. He will announce his depth and his estimated completion time, but he can update his data every few hours in the wait-time to let other people make decisions about what branches they might wish to further explore.

That is what we do here anyways on CG but its not clear/effecient.

But yes, in a roundabout way I answered your question of a 1st-level Rybka line of N-depth, should match the (N-1)-depth of a 2nd-level FEN which branched off that move.

This is a built-in fail-safe against sabotage and manipulating data to politicize the move you favor.

What I hope to see, is for our data-tree to show better lines than RV (a thousand of us competing against him, I know) and RV to discover a move we already saw, after RV reaches a 40-hour 27th ply!

During the 72 hours between moves, we could sum all the Nodes for the ENTIRE data-tree and divide by 259,200 to calculate the kN/s of our data-tree! As long as we don't make mistakes and redundantly analyze the same node ever twice, our team can review positions that have exponentially more hours behind them.

On the main page, I see posts like "has anyone analyzed 13. f6?" for a move 3-ply away!

Our data-tree system will be so effecient, that the asker of the aforementioned question can simply lookup the FEN document, and if it is bare, he can contribute. If it has been 25-ply analyzed, he will think GREAT! and can pick a subvariation off that and focus his time where he wants! Oct-13-07

delete   sentriclecub: Finally, the hidden gem of the data-tree system, is that we have enough volunteers, we can ELIMINATE 1st-level and 2nd-level computer analysis, because 1st-level analysis is a simple computer algorithm. Max[eval of best 2nd-level FEN] which is a function of [eval of best 3rd-level FEN] In other words, once all 4 "second level" positions are sufficiently analyzed, it would be redundant to analyze a 1st-level position because it is simply an eval of the highest node which comes after it.

Rybka selects a best position among other candidate positions that occur at a fixed depth from the root-node. If we forbid Rybka from evaluating positions that aren't from our 4 second-level moves, we slide forward and get N-ply analysis for only the time it would take for (N-1)ply.

Example, if we know GMT will play one of 4 candidate moves, we can either do 25-ply analysis from the root-node or do 24-ply analysis four times on the 1st-level nodes.

Those who know, know that to reach 25-ply from 24-ply takes about the same amount of time as it did to reach 24-ply from 21-ply.

That is just one more minor (but potentially major) effeciency which the data-tree system can offer us. Especially when multiple minor improvements are considered, they can have a compounding effect. Oct-13-07

delete   zanshin: Taking a break from the data tree for a moment, I'll bet GMT plays 12...a5 because it's sort of the main line and he doesn't know how much we're analyzed it. Still, my prediction record leaves much to be desired, so chancho rights might be exercised. Oct-13-07

delete   RandomVisitor: Black will play 12...a5. Oct-13-07

delete   Tabanus: My guess is 12...Qe8 Oct-13-07

delete   Touch of Knight: 12...Qe8 Oct-13-07

delete   sentriclecub: Good voting so far guys.

If you sum the vote-totals for guess-the-move since its inception.

GMT has played the move with the most votes twice, and the other time he played the move with the second most votes.

We are playing at 2500+ strength and we are 2-0 against GM's. Oct-13-07

delete   ajile: What do I win if I guess right?

After all I'm putting some serious effort into typing a vote. Oct-13-07

delete   MindCtrol9: My opinions is the GMJT has a position which is ready to some exchanging of pieces.I guess that his next move is:12. ...cxd5 with the idea of eliminating one of the white Knights.Black's position looks good to me.White has to be more active and aggressive in order to win this game. Oct-13-07

delete   twinlark: 12...a5 Oct-13-07

delete   OhioChessFan: 12.......c5 Oct-13-07

delete   Artar1: 12...Qe8. Oct-13-07

delete   zanshin:  You will win the respect and admiration of your Teammates, which I'm sure you'll agree, is priceless ;-) Oct-13-07

delete   rinus: 12...a5 Oct-13-07

delete   sentriclecub:  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...

If this link is not broken will go to a winner for a contributor my my data-tree system.

CG might offer a free soft membership to promote their agenda but I'm going to hold a lottery for contributors to the data-tree system where 1 kN/contributing = 1 vote. Unlimited vote-earning potential.

I'll release details when the data-tree system is unveiled. Those who post data to the forum tree will earn chances to win a brand new Saitek digital chess clock (or $20 cash if you have no need for the item). I bought the item off ebay specifically to broadcast my level of encouraging participation. Oct-13-07

delete   ajile:  You will win the respect and admiration of your Teammates, which I'm sure you'll agree, is priceless ;-)> lol

OK you win. I'm gonna go with 12..Qe8.

Oct-13-07 delete   Kwesi: 12...cxd5 Oct-13-07

delete   weisyschwarz: 12...a5 Oct-13-07 delete   Aurora: 12...c5

Oct-14-07

delete   imag: 12...a5 Oct-14-07

delete   ZeroOne: 12...a5 appears to be the most logical option for Black here. Oct-14-07

delete   ZeroOne: By the way, why Google Apps for the data tree, why not some wiki system? Oct-14-07

delete   sentriclecub: <why not some wiki-system> explain some more please? I'm open to it if it is better. Oct-15-07

delete   chesstoplay: ---> copied from the GMT main thread just so you don't miss it. Yes, I understand your point.

The World Team, however, is a huge, highly active, international group of individuals that have under the leadership of several key players formed the most unique world chess community in history.

The Forum system that came into being was an amazing achievement in such a diverse and strong willed and free willed group.

Freedom and forums and a belief system in players that have proven themselves to the team over the last year or so is the current normal.

Your idea has merit, but I do not know if it could ever become the choice of the group at large - though the fundamental idea is sound.

The problem then is how to let all of the users stay completely free and independent when such a "branching" system requires "centralized" control.

Some might say that the current forums already do the job well enough.

I might trust RV or Artar1 as the spider at the center of the chess web.

And even they, with the respect they have, might not enjoy being sniped at by some of the folk here that go off on some less than nice tangents.

Neither one might even want to be the "administrator".

After that, I'm would not be sure about anything else.

Maybe your idea will come into its own over time.

Keep formulating your idea into compartmentalized "chunks" and, perhaps, pitch the progressive steps one at a time to everyone and see what you can build in a week, month or year.

Even our simple scholarship program needed time to set up and get going.

Try posting your ideas in RV's and Artar2's forums.

As a couple of the team leaders, maybe they will be interested and possibly have suggestions.

Oct-15-07

delete   ZeroOne: From Wikipedia: "A wiki is computer software that allows users to easily edit, create, and link web pages. Wikis are often used to create collaborative websites, power community websites, and are increasingly being installed by businesses to provide affordable and effective Intranets or for use in Knowledge Management." So what I had in mind was something like the Wikibook about chess opening theory here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Openin... Of course, that particular chess wiki is naming its pages move-by-move which is inferior to the FEN-notation, but you get the point there anyway and there's nothing to prevent you from using the FEN-naming scheme.

A site that enables you to establish your own wiki and hosts several wikis is called a wikifarm. Wikipedia has a comparison of those here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...

One particular wikifarm I can recommend is Wikidot. I've been using it for one university project lately, but please take your time getting to know the options. Oct-15-07

delete   melianis: I put 30 chessbucks on 12...a6, so why not announce it here also. Oct-15-07 delete   Judah: a5 is the sort of move the World might make as Black. From what I've seen of Timmerman this game, I think <Qe8> is more his style. Oct-15-07

delete   benjinathan: 12...Qe8 Oct-15-07

delete   rinus: ChessBookie:

12...Qe8 7000 12...a5 5000 Oct-15-07 delete   ChessNe1: i say 12...c5. Oct-15-07 delete   mworld: i think he will play a5 in anticipation that our queenside thrust would be premature. Oct-16-07 delete   Mac3: 12...Qe8 for me after taking a second time extension! Oct-16-07

delete   ZeroOne: <Sentricleclub> I could but it would be no use for you as it is protected, you can only view and edit it if you get a personal invitation. Another way of protecting wikis is a password. But here's the Wikidot introduction tour: http://www.wikidot.com/tour:what Oct-16-07

delete   ZeroOne: I'm 22 and studying computer science at the Helsinki University of Technology. The project I am doing using the wiki is a group exercise, a short case study of a company (http://www.digiumresearch.com/defau...) for the Software Business Lab. It's just one of those mandatory courses, I'm not planning to specialize in that area but in the software technology (http://www.cs.hut.fi/english.html). Oct-16-07

delete   twinlark: I'll exercise my first and switch to <12...Qe8>. Oct-16-07 delete   tensor: I guess 12...Qe8 Oct-16-07 delete   Elixir of Life: <12...Qe8> This move looks passive, but it prepares a kingside attack. The most difficult option for us. Oct-16-07 delete   isemeria: 12...a5 Oct-16-07 delete   pacorrum: 12...a5 he won´t run risks Oct-16-07

delete   sentriclecub: 12...Qe8 Tabanus TouchOfKnight Artar1 Ajile Judah Benjinathan Mac3 ElixerOfLife Twinlark 12...Qc8 Sentriclecub

12...a5 RandomVisitor Zanshin Rinus Weisyschwarz Imag ZeroOne mworld isemeria pacorrum

12...cxd5 MindCtrol9 kwesi

12...c5 OhioChessFan Aurora ChessNe1 Waitaka

12...a6 Melianis Oct-19-07

delete   twinlark: 13...bxc6.

May I ask where you're at with the data tree? Oct-19-07

delete   zanshin: He'll stick with the main line and go bxc6.

You want me to explain my thoughts to amateurs? But I'm an amateur too! ;-) Oct-19-07

delete   sentriclecub: Will be ready Nov 1st. I'm just trying to predict problems and predict solutions. The actual creation of all the pages will take me about 48 hours. Oct-19-07

delete   TheDestruktor: So far all my guesses were wrong.

But I bet he will play 13...bxc6.

Oct-19-07

delete   zanshin: <TheDestruktor: So far all my guesses were wrong.> Your chances have improved because this time is a 50/50 call ;-) Great job on the summaries, btw. Oct-19-07

delete   RandomVisitor: 13...bxc6 will be played. Oct-19-07 delete   lonepsycho: <RandomVisitor: 13...bxc6 will be played.> Agreed. Furthermore, I predict play will continue: 14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 Nxc3 17. bxc3 Nb5 18. Rxb5 cxb5 19. Bxd6 Oct-19-07

delete   imag: 13...bxc6 Oct-19-07

delete   Hugin: 13 - bxc6 Oct-19-07

delete   rinus: 13...bxc6

, if you are right then there are 2 possible Sunday puzzles:

move 19, Black to play (for a draw) and hopefully move 20, White to play

Oct-19-07 delete   pacorrum: 13... Bxc6 Oct-19-07

delete   whiteshark: If all analysts estimate the same it's time to leave (the stock market), 13...Bxc6 Oct-19-07

delete   Waitaka: 13...bxc6 Oct-19-07 delete   ChessNe1: 13...Bxc6 (just to be different) Oct-19-07 delete   krpvksprv: 13...bxc6 Oct-20-07

delete   melianis: ...bxc6, interesting to see how Chessbookie odds go, if this can be bet at all. Oct-20-07 delete   Aurora: Black will play 13...bxc6. Oct-20-07

delete   Tabanus: 13...Bxc6 Oct-20-07

delete   Touch of Knight: 13...Bxc6 Oct-20-07 delete   pagliacci19: 13...bxc6, i think that the pawn is better in the center than the bishop, the potential open <Rookfile> may come in handy later, and i'm supposing that the bishop is playing a sort of 'lying in wait' role for the moment, and kind of shielding the queen...but tbh i'm amateur, so...big grain of salt... :) Oct-20-07

delete   weisyschwarz: He may counter pose his B with ours. So I say 13...Bxc6. Oct-20-07

delete   benjinathan: Bishop Oct-20-07

delete   benjinathan: My amateur explanation: he turns bad B into a good B. And maintains the b pawn push possibility. Oct-21-07 delete   mworld: put me down for Bxc6 Oct-21-07

delete   nimh: The only thing I can see here is that an isolated pawn is a weakness, hence 13...Bxc6. Oct-21-07

delete   Open Defence: Bxc6 .. he will like to keep this unclear Oct-21-07

delete   sentriclecub: <BAG: If someone comes up with an intresting line they could add it to the data tree? That way they dont really have to say anything but can still share own thier ideas. I think we should have this as soon as possible. Thanks> Yes, you are correct

Also <Bag> if you read this, please activate your chessforum so others can leave you messages.

Oct-21-07

delete   benjinathan: I comend you, but I am not sure it will solve 's concerns. We are fortunatre to have him with us, but I do not think he will ever be effective at conveying his ideas (at least to the masses, espescially those masses who do not have a board with their computer) unless he changes his posting style. The contributors that are most effective, have short lines, include pictures and use plain explanations. I am not trying to be critical of him at all; it is just my opinion of why his ideas do not carry the weight that they perhaps deserve with people like me. I reply in your forum also. Oct-21-07

delete   sentriclecub: Thanks Benji,

I sorta empathize kwid's frustration.

Most people who come to this site and vote on a move spend less than 5 minutes. Kwid's only chance to influence a vote is to prove it to the leaders.

Just like Rookfile's advocacy campains of the GMAN game have shown, to be effective here, you usually have to play politics and get support from prominent teammtes; or you have to emotionally advocate your move by fear-tactics or fallacious arguments.

I hope that once the system is unveiled, it will benefit those like Kwid who can't make a difference all by themselves. Oct-21-07

delete   OhioChessFan: ........bxc6. Oct-21-07 delete   Judah: Bishop. Oct-21-07

delete   kwgurge: 13...bxc6, it's black's best. Oct-22-07 delete   tensor: 13...bxc6, for me Oct-22-07

delete   kutztown46: ...bxc6 Oct-22-07

delete   sentriclecub: *bxc6 wins* 13...bxc6 Sentriclecub Zanzhin Twinlark TheDestruktor RandomVisitor LonePsycho Imag Hugin Rinus Waitaka KrpvKsprv Melianis Aurora Paglica19 OhioChessFan kwgurge Kutztown46 Tensor 13...Bxc6 Paccorum WhiteShark ChessNe1 Tabanus TouchOfKnight weisyschwarz Benjinathan mworld Metopea Nimh OpenDefence Judah Oct-25-07

delete   ZeroOne: Hello, I don't mind hosting the TOC of the data-tree system. :) However, you should consider the format of the TOC. Is it really necessary to list _every_ FEN? I mean, that's probably like a few hundred FENs each move. Maybe list the game so far and the main variations into the depth of two plies or something like that? I trust the documents contain links to the other documents anyway, right? Oct-25-07

delete   weisyschwarz: After our 14.c5 I predict 14...d5. Oct-25-07

delete   zanshin: I think he'll play 14...Ne4 but rights definitely needed for this one. Oct-25-07

delete   Waitaka: 14...Ne4 Oct-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: <Zeroone>

I agree. Should we list only direct links to the most relevant 20 FEN? Correct, every FEN will link to every FEN that it precedes and follows. It will be on a wikisystem so hyperlinking and graphics will make navigation easy and useful. Oct-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: The purpose of having a "quick links" is to provide the most popular FENs that are of highest attention. This will serve to save people 10-15 seconds, and can direct people to the 2-3 FENs that they are only interested in without having to leave their chessgames browser, except for one page (or open in one new tab). Oct-25-07

delete   RandomVisitor: 14...Ne4 Oct-25-07

delete   YouRang: 14...Ne4 too (although I thought everyone else was going to predict d5). Oct-25-07 delete   Aurora: Black will play 14...Ne4. Oct-25-07

delete   OhioChessFan: 14.............extension Oct-25-07

delete   karnak64: I'm guessing d5. Oct-25-07 delete   ChessNe1: i will say 14. Ne4 as well, although i should wait for imag's prediction. Oct-25-07

delete   imag: This is a tough one. I predict 14...d5 (probably after an extension). Oct-25-07

delete   rinus: I've already said: 14...Ne4 Oct-25-07

delete   twinlark: 14...d5 Oct-25-07 delete   ChessNe1: 2nd extension before move 15? i think not. Oct-25-07

delete   whiteshark: I'm gonna take my 50:50 joker: 14...Ne4 or 14...d5 Oct-25-07

delete   hoodrobin: 14...d5 Oct-25-07

delete   ZeroOne: Yeah, I use IRC on IRCnet and freenode by this nickname. I'm also using ICQ, my UIN is 51958647.

Oct-25-07

delete   ZeroOne: In addition, I've got a Windows Live Messenger account and GMail, but I'd rather not post my email address into a public forum like this. Oct-25-07 delete   pacorrum: d5 for me Oct-25-07

delete   whatthefat: 14...d5 Oct-25-07

delete   weisyschwarz: <ChessNe1: 2nd extension before move 15? i think not.> I agree. 14.c5 was not exactly a "Eureka" move.

<Sentricle Club>! Time to update!!

Oct-25-07 delete   lonepsycho: 14. ... e4 is to be expected. Oct-25-07

delete   Hootey: Gonna go with 14...d5

...15. Ng5 Rg7?? 16. Nf7# :-) Oct-25-07

delete   melianis: 14...d5 Oct-26-07 delete   krpvksprv: 14...d5 for me. Oct-26-07 delete   krpvksprv: Hey BTW is GMT entitled to another extension? Oct-26-07

delete   ZeroOne: I thought GMT only has 2 extensions left? Oct-26-07 delete   ChessNe1: <14...other OhioChessFan WhiteShark> "other" my foot! what "other"? Oct-26-07

delete   zanshin: <ZeroOne: I thought GMT only has 2 extensions left?> <01> He asked for 5 extensions, so he has 4 left (it's in the "conditions" link at the top). Oct-27-07

delete   nimh: 14...Ne4 Oct-27-07 delete   pagliacci19: i make the guess 14...d5 Oct-27-07

delete   kwgurge: 14...Ne4 Oct-28-07

delete   kutztown46: 14...d5 Oct-28-07

delete   ZeroOne: Been busy with the data tree system, I suppose? I think one excellent use for the tree is that when the game progresses, we can look back and see when was the first time someone had the current position on their board and how was it evaluated. :) Oct-28-07

delete   sentriclecub: d5 for me Oct-28-07

delete   ronpaz1: 14..d5 Oct-28-07

delete   Red October: 14...d5 Oct-28-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: 14 ... <wait a couple more days, then Ne4 > Oct-28-07

delete   Touch of Knight: 14...d5 Oct-28-07 delete   tensor: 14...Ne4 Oct-28-07

delete   MarkThornton: 14...d5 for me! Oct-28-07

delete   sentriclecub: Section I Guess-the-move ______________

14...d5 Weisyschwarz Karnak64 Imag TwinLark HoodRobin Paccorum WhatTheFat Hootey melianis krpvksprv Pagliacci19 Kutztown46 Sentriclecub Ronpaz1 RedOctober TouchOfKnight MarkThornton

14...Ne4 Zanshin Waitaka RandomVisitor YouRang Aurora ChessNe1 Rinus LonePsycho NimH kwgurge MostlyAvgJoe Tensor

14...other OhioChessFan WhiteShark

Oct-28-07

delete   whiteshark: An early voting for: <15...exd6> Oct-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: Delay is going to occur for the data-tree.

As i've told others, it would take about 48 hours for me to create a working model so I started this afternoon to be ready on Nov 1st.

I ditched googleapps, and started the task of creating 512 documents, each a unique position likely to occur in our game.

As a quote from page 730 of the GMT game <Thanks. No criticism of the forum structure intended> I will still create a platform which better fascilitates sliding-analysis for our team. Also, I'll un-estrange my terminology and will try to rename all the terms into "sliding" language to help everything get adopted and used.

Does anyone know a wiki-platform that would host chess positions as wikipedia will not. They deleted 4 hours of my work today and I don't disagree with them. Maybe google-apps is still a candidate platform? I'm readily taking suggestions. Oct-31-07

delete   whatthefat: 15...exd6. I have to get this one right... Oct-31-07

delete   zanshin: He will move exd6. Oct-31-07

delete   Hootey: 15...exd6. Oct-31-07

delete   melianis: I don't know why i guess. He will move exd6. Oct-31-07

delete   nimh: 15... exd6 Never tolerate isolated pawns. Nov-01-07

delete   twinlark: 15...exd6 Nov-01-07

delete   rinus: 15...exd6 ; you'd better have a 'guess the move' on White's move 16 this time. Nov-01-07

delete   imag: 15...exd6 Nov-01-07

delete   ZeroOne: I sent you an email, did you get it? Nov-01-07

delete   YouRang: 15...exd6 (Seems less original when 10 others have posted it ahead of me...) Nov-02-07 delete   Judah: Nxd6 Nov-03-07

delete   sentriclecub: Section I Guess-the-move ______________

15...exd6 *whiteshark* *weisyschwarz* *Sentriclecub* *WhatTheFat* *Zanshin* *Hootey* *melianis* *Nimh* *Rinus* *Imag* *ZeroOne* *YouRang*

15...Nxd6 Judah

Nov-03-07

delete   twinlark:

Message for you on my forum Nov-03-07

delete   sentriclecub: Message received and awaiting rebuttal Nov-04-07

delete   sentriclecub: Early voting for Guess-The-Move now open. Nov-04-07 delete   Elixir of Life: put me down for 16...d5 Nov-04-07

delete   zanshin: GMT will move 16...d5. Nov-04-07

delete   whatthefat: 16...Nxc3 Nov-05-07

delete   nimh: 16...d5 Nov-05-07

delete   kwgurge: 16...Nxc3 Nov-05-07

delete   RandomVisitor: 16...Nxc3. Timmerman will need to show that he does not fear this move and it will give him an opportunity to showcase his analysis skills. Nov-05-07

delete   Artar1: <sentriclecub:>

I have read your post in my forum, and I am giving your recommendation some thought. Let me respond in greater detail later, maybe tonight or tomorrow. Thanks. Nov-05-07

delete   rinus: 16...Nxc3

It's his best move, why should he fear it?

Nov-05-07

delete   Waitaka: 16....Nxc3 Nov-06-07

delete   Touch of Knight: 16...d5 Nov-06-07

delete   hoodrobin: 16...d5 Nov-06-07 delete   lonepsycho: 16. ... Nxc3

As I said earlier:

<Furthermore, I predict play will continue:

14. c5 Ne4 15. cxd6 exd6 16. Bf4 Nxc3 17. bxc3 Nb5 18. Rxb5 cxb5 19. Bxd6>

Past that, it will be:

19. ... Be6 20. Ne5 Rc8 21. ? Nov-06-07 delete   ChessNe1: cast my lot with the 16...d5 crew!! Nov-06-07

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: Can someone slide this line please 1. = (0.15): 23.Bd2 Kf7 24.Bc3 Rg8 25.Qe3 Qe7 26.Qh6 Ke8 27.f3 Bf5 28.Bd4 Rc8 29.g4 Be6>

I'll do it. But first, what exactly do you mean? Do you want me to start analyzing from 29...Be6?

I'll wait for the updated forum page. Nov-06-07 delete   mworld: put me down for Nxc3. I think GMT will want to equalize a bit while he has an opportunity to trade knights and weaken our queenside pawn structure. Nov-06-07 delete   pacorrum: 16. ... Nxc3 he is bloodthirsty Nov-06-07 delete   isemeria: 16...d5 Nov-06-07

delete   YouRang: 16...d5 Nov-06-07 delete   LuizPauloAraujo: d5 to me Nov-06-07

delete   OhioChessFan: 16.........d5 Nov-06-07

delete   sentriclecub: <I'll do it. But first, what exactly do you mean? Do you want me to start analyzing from 29...Be6?> I guess I really don't know, I mainly meant for someone to spend some time on it and provide me any type of feedback. When i wake up, I'll be able to read what others think of this variation which I've done a lot of coverage on, because I could easily be overlooking something. Also, are there winning chances? Nov-06-07 delete   Elixir of Life: Change my vote to <16...Nxc3> please. I believe that as <14...d5> was better than <16...d5>, and as GMT discarded <14...d5>, he must've discarded <16...d5> too. Nov-06-07

delete   Boomie: Add my handle to the distinguished list of Nxc3 supporters. Nov-07-07

delete   twinlark: 16...Nxc3 Nov-07-07

delete   zanshin: I will pull a and switch from d5 to Nxc3. Nov-07-07

delete   Hugin: 16 - d5 Nov-07-07

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: Can someone slide this line please 1. = (0.15): 23.Bd2 Kf7 24.Bc3 Rg8 25.Qe3 Qe7 26.Qh6 Ke8 27.f3 Bf5 28.Bd4 Rc8 29.g4 Be6> I can't replicate this line. I must be doing something wrong because I can't play 24.Bc3 as there is a Knight on c3. Nov-07-07

delete   weisyschwarz: 16...Nxc3 Nov-07-07

delete   weisyschwarz:, Hey man, you need copyright your name! You get the blame whenever people change their minds! :-) Nov-07-07

delete   kutztown46: 16...Nxc3 Nov-08-07 delete   Aurora: Black will play 16...Nxc3. Nov-08-07 delete   krpvksprv: 16.d5 I think. Nov-08-07

delete   whiteshark: I would be surprised if he's not playing <16...Nxc3>. <It takes you by surprise at first, but keeps you warm for a long time.> Guess, what it is. Nov-08-07 delete   lopium: I feel 16...Nxc3. Nov-08-07

delete   Artar1: I vote for 16...d5. It's positionally more difficult for us to make progress against. Nov-08-07 delete   ChessNe1: <<It takes you by surprise at first, but keeps you warm for a long time.> Guess, what it is.> Hell.

Nov-08-07 delete   tensor: 16...Nxc3 for me. Nov-08-07

delete   weisyschwarz: <whiteshark: I would be surprised if he's not playing <16...Nxc3>. <It takes you by surprise at first, but keeps you warm for a long time.> Guess, what it is.> Wasabi!

Nov-08-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: 16...Nxc3 Nov-09-07 delete   stukkenjager: I think he will play 16...d5 Nov-09-07 delete   Elixir of Life: May I also add myself to the list of people who thinks he will take an extension. I'll be surprised if he doesn't. Nov-09-07

delete   imag: I'm going with 16...d5 Nov-09-07

delete   zanshin: Darn it! I should have not pulled a ! I'll be updating my forum in a few minutes. Since GMT played d5, revisions should not be too extensive. I'll start running some analyses, but will use as starting points those given by you and <RV> earlier. I'll wait for you to email the complete forum header when you're ready. Nov-09-07

delete   YouRang: Woo hoo! 3 for 3 for me! :-) Nov-09-07

delete   whiteshark: <ChessNe1>, LOL, great! Nov-09-07

delete   sentriclecub: Section I Guess-the-move ______________

16...d5 *Sentriclecub* *nimH* *MarmotPFL* *TouchOfKnight* *hoodrobin* *ChessNe1* *isemeria* *YouRang* *LuizPauloAraujo* *OhioChessFan* *Hugin* *krpvksprv* *stukkenjager* *Artar1* *Imag*

16...Nxc3 WhatTheFat kwgurge RandomVisitor Rinus Waitaka lonepsycho mworld Pacorrum ElixerOfLife Boomie TwinLark Zanshin Weisyschwarz Kutztown46 Aurora WhiteShark lopium Tensor MostlyAvgJoe Nov-12-07

delete   whatthefat: 17...Re8 Nov-12-07

delete   melianis: I say 17...Bf6, just to annoy us. Nov-12-07

delete   Hugin: I say 17 - Bf6 because that's the best black has. Nov-12-07

delete   RandomVisitor: 17...Re8 Nov-12-07

delete   YouRang: 17...Re8 Nov-12-07

delete   sentriclecub: My page will be down for 30 minutes to help design a temp forum, please be patient. Nov-12-07 delete   Kwesi: 17...Bf6 Nov-12-07

delete   twinlark: 17...Re8 Nov-12-07

delete   kwgurge: 17...Re8 Nov-12-07

delete   kwgurge: BTW, I think your forum header means to say 17.Be5 (not Bg5) Nov-12-07

delete   sentriclecub: thanks Nov-12-07

delete   zanshin: GMT will play 17...Re8. No this time. I've updated the data-tree demo on my forum and will try to add some more lines. They won't be as good as your's though.

Nov-12-07 delete   Aurora: Black will play 17...Bf6. Nov-12-07

delete   rinus: 17...Bf6; it makes voting on our move 19 easier. Nov-12-07

delete   Waitaka: My vote is 17...Bf6 Nov-12-07 delete   tensor: My vote is 17...Bf6 too Nov-13-07 delete   Elixir of Life: GMT will play <17...Nf6> this time, because as an old school grandmaster who likes to play on positional intuition, he would not find the trade of Bishops very pleasant. Nov-13-07

delete   Artar1: 17...Re8. Nov-13-07

delete   nimh: 17...Re8 Nov-13-07

delete   weisyschwarz: I believe he will play 17...Re8. Nov-13-07 delete   Judah: I'll go for Nf6. Nov-13-07

delete   imag: 17...Re8 gives us the most problems so this is what I expect from GMT Nov-14-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: 17...Bf6 Nov-14-07 delete   truefriends: 17...Re8 Nov-14-07 delete   lonepsycho: 17. ... Re8 is best here. I still cannot believe he played 16. ... d5!? Nov-15-07

delete   kutztown46: Here's a last minute vote for ...Re8 but ...Bf6 would not surprise me. Nov-15-07

delete   zanshin: Do you want to try using googledocs to exchange text for my forum header? I assume there's an equivalent to Notepad. Nov-16-07

delete   sentriclecub: <Z> yes, give me a few hours, Nov-16-07

delete   sentriclecub: Section I Guess-the-move ______________

17...Re8 *WhatTheFat* *RandomVisitor* *YouRang* *Sentriclecub* *Twinlark* *kwgurge* *Zanshin* *Artar1* *nimh* *weisyschwarz* *Imag* *TrueFriends* *Lonepsycho* *Kutztown46*

17...Bf6 melianis Hugin Kwesi Aurora Rinus Waitaka tensor MostlyAvgJoe

17...Nf6 ElixerOfLife Judah

Nov-16-07

delete   sentriclecub: Guess the move is closed for 3 days. Nov-16-07

delete   sentriclecub: 22ply 2434mNodes after 20. e3

2: World Team,a - GM Timmerman, Correspondence

click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit :

1. ² (0.29): 20...Ne6 21.Na4 Red8 22.Nd4 Nxd4 23.Rxd4 Rdb8 24.Nc5 Nxc5 25.Rxc5 a4 26.Bf3 Rb6 27.Kg2

2. ² (0.29): 20...Rec8 21.Nd4 Ne6 22.Na4 Nxd4 23.Rxd4 Rcb8 24.Nc5 Nxc5 25.Rxc5 a4 26.Bf3 Rb6 27.Kg2

3. ² (0.35): 20...Rf8 21.Nd4 Ne6 22.Nxe6+ Qxe6 23.Na4 Rfb8 24.f3 Nf6 25.Nc5 Qd6 26.Qc3 Re8 27.Rd4

4. ² (0.36): 20...Reb8 21.Nd4 Rb7 22.Rc2 Nd6 23.b3 Ncb5 24.Ncxb5 Nxb5 25.Nxb5 Rxb5 26.Rc5 Rxc5 27.Qxc5

5. ² (0.37): 20...Ra7 21.Nd4 Rc8 22.f3 Nxc3 23.Rxc3 Ne6 24.Nxe6+ Bxe6 25.b4 Rca8 26.Rxc6 axb4 27.Qxb4 Nov-17-07

delete   sentriclecub: Section I <20. Nd4...Reb8> - - - 22 ply - - 2702 mNodes - - -

click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit :

1. ² (0.36): 21.e3 Rb7 22.Rc2 Nd6 23.b3 Ne4 24.Nxe4 fxe4 25.Bf1 a4 26.b4 Rab8 27.Rb1 Ra8

2. = (0.25): 21.Bf1 a4 22.e3 Rb7 23.f4 Nd6 24.Rd2 Qf8 25.Be2 Kg8 26.Kg2 Na6 27.Nf3 Nb4

3. = (0.22): 21.Rc2 Na6 22.Qxa5 Nxc3 23.Rxc3 Rxb2 24.e3 Rb7 25.Rb3 Rxb3 26.axb3 Qd6 27.Rc1 c5

4. = (0.22): 21.f3 Nxc3 22.bxc3 Qf8 23.Qxf8+ Kxf8 24.c4 Rb2 25.e4 fxe4 26.fxe4 dxe4 27.Bxe4 Rxa2

Nov-18-07

delete   sentriclecub: 23 ply 5172 mNodes 20. e3...Rec8

click for larger view

1. ² (0.42): 21.Nd4 a4 22.f4

2. = (0.25): 21.Na4 Nb5 22.Qd3 Rcb8 23.b3 g5 24.Ne1 g4 25.Bxe4 fxe4 26.Qd2 Ra7 27.Nc5 Bf5

3. = (0.23): 21.Ne1 Nd6 22.Bf1 Ra7 23.Nf3 Ne4 24.Nd4 Ne6 25.b4 Nxd4 26.Rxd4 Nxc3 27.Rxc3 Rca8

4. = (0.19): 21.Bf1 Ne6 22.Nd4 Nxd4 23.Rxd4 Re8 24.Nxe4 fxe4 25.Ra4 Reb8 26.b3 Rf8 27.Rc2 Qd8

5. = (0.18): 21.h4 Ra7 22.Nd4 Ne6 23.Nxe6+ Bxe6 24.Ne2 Bd7 25.Bxe4 fxe4 26.Nd4 Rb7 27.Rd2 a4 Nov-18-07

delete   sentriclecub: 24 ply 4321 mNodes 20. e3...Ne6

click for larger view 1. = (0.25): 21.Na4 Reb8 22.b3 Ra7 23.Nd4 Nxd4 24.Rxd4 Qd6 25.Nc5 Rb5 26.Qb2 Qf6 27.Nd3 Kg8

2. = (0.23): 21.Rc2 Kg8 22.Na4 Rab8 23.Ne1 Qe7 24.Qxe7 Rxe7 25.Nd3 Nd8 26.Nac5 Kg7 27.h4 Nxc5

3. = (0.19): 21.Nd4 Nxd4 22.Rxd4 Qe7 23.Qxe7+ Rxe7 24.b3 Be8 25.Ne2 Kf6 26.Rd3 Ra6 27.Bxe4 fxe4

4. = (0.17): 21.Ne1 Qe7 22.Qxe7+ Rxe7 23.Nd3 a4 24.Ne5 Nf6 25.f4 Be8 26.Rd2 Ra6 27.Kf2 Ng4+

5. = (0.16): 21.Ne2 Nd8 22.Nf4 Nf7 23.b3 Nc3 24.Rd2 Ne4 25.Rdc2 Kg8 26.Rd1 Kg7 27.Rdc1 Kg8

Nov-21-07

delete   ZeroOne: Hey sentriclecub, Sorry for a little late answer, I didn't notice your message before. I can host a data tree forum, but I'm quite busy with my studies so I won't be able to contribute much, let alone do any summaries or such. But if you mail me the forum headers, I can add them and let others use my forum. And yes, I resolved the issue with the power supply by buying and installing a new fan. :) Nov-22-07

delete   sentriclecub: Excellent quote I'm pulling from the main page...

"The important thing to remember about <RV's> Rybka analysis is that it is infinity analysis and not designed to be definitive, but to provide a baseline for further examination by humans and engines. For instance, the reason Rybka may choose one move over another may be based on only hundredths of a point difference 25 plies down the line. Unless we explore each branching option to find places where the opponent may go wrong, Rybka will inexorably lead to a draw in close positions" Nov-22-07

delete   twinlark: <19...Qe7>

Nov-22-07 delete   Elixir of Life: <19...Qe7> Nov-22-07

delete   rinus: Guess: 19...Qf6 Nov-22-07

delete   imag: My guess is <19...Qf6> Nov-22-07

delete   zanshin: GMT will play 19...Qe7. Nov-22-07

delete   YouRang: 19...Qe7 Nov-22-07

delete   whiteshark: I'm exspecting <19...Qf6> Nov-23-07

delete   kwgurge: 19...Qe7 Nov-23-07

delete   hoodrobin: 19...Qe7 Nov-23-07

delete   melianis: If he doesnt take the extension 19...Qe7 Nov-23-07 delete   isemeria: 19...Qf6 Nov-23-07

delete   Hugin: 19 - Qf6 Nov-23-07 delete   Sequoia: 19...Qf6 Nov-23-07

delete   weisyschwarz: 19...Qf6 Nov-23-07 delete   Kwesi: 19...Qf6 Nov-23-07 delete   stukkenjager: 19...e7 Nov-24-07 delete   zsoydd: Hi sentriclecub,

how can I predict a move here?

I'd like to vote for 19. .. Qf6.

Though I believe that Qe7 is objectively stronger. Black will probably avoid it, as it leads to a very negative endgame.

Best regards zsoyd

Nov-24-07 delete   truefriends: 19... Qe7 Nov-24-07

delete   sentriclecub: Thanks Zsoydd, glad to welcome your participation. Nov-24-07 delete   ChessNe1: if GM Timmerman can mitigate our + quotient with 19...Qe7, well than that's a no-brainer. 19.e7 Nov-24-07

delete   Red October: 19..Qf6 Nov-24-07 delete   tensor: 19...Qf6 for me Nov-24-07 delete   pacorrum: 19... Qe7 for me Nov-24-07

delete   Tabanus: 19...Qf6 Nov-24-07

delete   kwid: "Qf6" saves him tempos to defend a5 pawn which needs two defenders. Nov-24-07

delete   karnak64: Put me down for Qe7. I think Qf6 is sharper, but GMT seems to be playing it close to the chest.

Nov-24-07

delete   Artar1: I vote for Qe7. Nov-24-07 delete   Toastman: 19... Qf6 Nov-25-07

delete   Kings Indian: 19...Qe7 Nov-25-07

delete   zanshin: <Red October: <Zanshin> informed me you would like a forum for the data tree ? If so forum Open Defence could help in this regard, please let me know what you want done :)> <RO> Thanks for agreeing to participate. Actually, it's more 's project than mine. I'll cross-post to his forum so he knows. Thanks again! Nov-25-07

delete   nimh: 19...Qe7 Nov-25-07

delete   Hugin: Changing my vote too 19 - Qe7 since that seems to draw. Nov-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: Guess the move Nov 25th

19...Qf6 rinus Imag Whiteshark Sentriclecub Thorsson isemeria isemeria Hugin Sequoia weisyschwarz Kwesi zsoydd RedOctober tensor Tabanus kwid Toastman

19...Qe7 *twinlark* *ElixerOfLife* *Zanshin* *Yourang* *kwgurge* *HoodRobin* *melianis* *stukkenjager* *truefriends* *ChessNe1* *pacorrum* *karnak64* *Artar1* *KingsIndian* *nimh* *Hugin* Nov-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: Guess the move Nov 25th

19...Qf6 *rinus* *Imag* *Whiteshark* *Sentriclecub* *Thorsson* *isemeria* *Hugin* *isemeria* *Sequoia* *weisyschwarz* *Kwesi* *zsoydd* *RedOctober* *tensor* *Tabanus* *kwid* *Toastman*

19...Qe7 twinlark ElixerOfLife Zanshin Yourang kwgurge HoodRobin melianis stukkenjager truefriends ChessNe1 pacorrum karnak64 Artar1 KingsIndian nimh Hugin Nov-25-07

delete   Red October: mail sent ... awaiting orders ... Nov-25-07

delete   Red October: Ok created a new line as a test edit and saved it.. so how will I know that the shared google doc is updated and ready for upload do i check it at a specific time each day ? or say once in 4 hours ? Nov-25-07

delete   Red October: alternatively do I make a note of the revision history ? Nov-25-07

delete   zanshin: <Red October: alternatively do I make a note of the revision history ?> <RO> There will be a line at the top of the document indicating the version. He asks that you delete it before posting. The version number is not known to anyone else. That's just 's preference and I have gone along with it. Nov-25-07

delete   Red October: Ok let me know when the document is uploaded, I will do the needful thanks Nov-25-07

delete   zanshin: I added one of <RV>'s evals. It was the only one that was sliding forward from the needed positions. All others are behind so I did not include them. Nov-25-07

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: Jim K> I thought your name was Robert? Nov-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: "Robert Shakey" is just an alias

I share the name of that popular football player of the buffalo-bills.

I once got scammed on ebay/paypal by a phishing site (because I wasn't careful) and since then, I don't like using my real first or last name. Nov-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: Ok

I can notify you by email, or here on chessgames.

Some people get popup alerts when they receive new emails, and if you are this way, then I'll email you every time after I update.

We still gotta wait for GMT's next move before you get a data-tree forum.

For the first few days, we'll keep it simple and just practice on working together. It took Zanshin and myself, about 5 days to become effecient. Soon, if we can work effecient and not make errors, then I'll ask from Kutztown46 for another forum to convert to a data-tree system, from a blank-system.

Anyways, Zanshin can vouch for my efforts and commitment, and I look forward to working with you <Red October>. Nov-25-07

delete   sentriclecub: Also, when you sign in to google-docs, and view our shared document, I will always upgrade the version number.

So if the version number is the same, then no changes have been made. Nov-26-07

delete   Artar1: :

Thank you for taking the time to answer my post.

I am still working on this game, but I am not putting in the same number of hours as I did in our game with Yury. In that game I went too far.

Before I go further, congratulations on your entry into medical school. Have you started your studies, or will you begin next year? (Do I have that right by the way. I don't want to congratulate you on a non-existent event.)

Yes, it's difficult for one person to summarize all that's been posted. And I am not going to try.

I, too, have been working on 19...Qf6, but I have been getting positions that give White a small advantage. Now, if these positions were played to their logical conclusions, I expect that they would end in draws. The only way for us to win in this situation would be if GMT were to make a mistake. However, I just don't think he is going to make one.

I will take a look at <zanshin's> forum to see what he has posted there. In a day or two, I will post the work I have done on 19...Qf6.

Cheers!

Nov-26-07

delete   sentriclecub: I won't start med-school until August 2009, having to start preperations and take pre-requisite classes to score very high on the placement exam. Nov-26-07

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: "Robert Shakey" is just an alias> Oooops! I'll stop calling you Robert in personal emails ... btw, is also a Jim which added to my confusion.

<We still gotta wait for GMT's next move before you get a data-tree forum.>

Do we? What about all the 20.e3 analyses that split off from my forum?

<Anyways, Zanshin can vouch for my efforts and commitment, and I look forward to working with you <Red October>.>

That I can do <RO>! Nov-26-07

delete   sentriclecub: Another great post that I 100% agree with from the main page: <I'm sorry, but this is total garbage. If we can't form an assessment of a position without playing it down to the last pawn, and even then playing it out (and to heck with the tablebases!) then there's a real problem. Of course sliding forward analysis is important - both in getting a deeper feel for the position, and in finding potential themes and dangers - but to say it has to be taken to such extremes is completely ridiculous.

The fact is, it simply isn't possible to go 100 ply deep have explored all reasonable sidelines to a comparable depth; if it were, chess would be solved. So everytime I see a 100 ply line, I cringe at how totally unlikely and unrepresentative it is. What is needed is a reasonable balance, where we explore all reasonable lines to a reasonable depth, and form assessments of these lines based on standard chess principles and engine assessments (which use standard chess principles after all). There will be the occasional long forcing line, or an illustrative endgame, but that's it as far as these uber-lines go. This is standard analysis technique, and frankly I'm surprised I even need to make the point.> Nov-26-07

delete   zanshin: I'm not sure we can afford to wait the six days before we update my forum header. Note that <Tabanus> already pointed out on the main page that there was no coverage of e3. Nov-26-07

delete   ZeroOne: I'm still waiting. Has there been some change in the plans? Nov-26-07

delete   sentriclecub: Zerone, just in time, I'll email you. Nov-26-07

delete   zanshin: Before I upload the latest version, please read 's comments on the main page. I don't want to add to the confusion. Nov-27-07

delete   sentriclecub: Note to everyone, I'll be out of town until tomorrow. Have a lot of slid-forward data down the 20.Nd4...Reb8 21. e3...a4 lines. Nov-27-07

delete   sentriclecub: 22 ply 2769 mNodes

<after 19...Qf6 20. Nd4...Reb8 21. e3...a4 22. Bf1...Rb7

23. Be2...h5>

Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit - Rosbif,J, 1440'/40+60'/20+30'

click for larger view

1. = (0.25): 24.f3 Ng5 25.Rd2 Nf7 26.h4 Ne6 27.Kf2 Rba7 28.Nxe6+ Qxe6 29.Rd4 Qd6 30.Qxd6 Nxd6

2. = (0.24): 24.Rc2 Nd6 25.Bf1 Na6 26.Rcc1 Nc7 27.Bd3 Ne4 28.f3 Ng5 29.f4 Nf7 30.Rd2 Qd6

3. = (0.17): 24.f4 Rab8 25.Rc2 Nxc3 26.Qxc3 Rb6 27.Rdd2 Ne6 28.Nxe6+ Bxe6 29.Rd4 Bd7 30.Rcd2 Re8

4. = (0.16): 24.h4 Rb6 25.Rc2 Qf8 26.Nxe4 fxe4 27.Qc3 Kg8 28.Rdc1 Qe7 29.Qa3 Qf6 30.Rb1 Na6

5. = (0.13): 24.Re1 h4 25.Rc2 Nd6 26.gxh4 Na6 27.Rcc1 Ne4 28.Bxa6 Rxa6 29.f4 Qxh4 30.Nxe4 fxe4

Nov-27-07

delete   sentriclecub: -

-

23ply 3544 mNodes

<after 19...Qf6 20. Nd4...Reb8 21. e3...a4 22. Nce2...Rb6>

2: World Team,a - GM Timmerman, Correspondence

click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit :

1. = (0.15): 23.Nf4 Qd6 24.Nd3 Qxa3 25.bxa3 Ne6 26.Ne5 Nxd4 27.Rxd4 Be8 28.Rb4 Rab8 29.f3 Rxb4

2. = (0.01): 23.Rc2 Na6 24.Nf4 Nb4 25.Rcc1 Qe5 26.h4 Qd6 27.Nde2 Na6 28.Qxd6 Nxd6 29.Nd4 Ne4

3. = (0.00): 23.g4 Kh8 24.gxf5 gxf5 25.f3 Nd6 26.Qc3 Ne6 27.Rc2 Nxd4 28.Nxd4 Nc4 29.Bf1 Qg5+

4. = (0.00): 23.Bxe4 fxe4 24.Rd2 g5 25.Qc3 Rf8 26.Qc5 Rfb8 27.Qa5 Nb5 28.Rcc2 Nd6 29.Qa7 R6b7

5. = (0.00): 23.Nc3 Qf8 24.Qxf8+ Kxf8 25.Rc2 Ke7 26.Nxe4 fxe4 27.f3 exf3 28.Bxf3 Rab8 29.e4 dxe4 Nov-28-07

delete   sentriclecub: <Tabanus>: I will not impose my ego on anyone any more. I've had enough, and no wooly diplomacy can change this. Have a nice win.>

Hey can you email me at s e n t r i c l e c u b # y a h o o. c o m for a last minute proposal? Nov-28-07

delete   sentriclecub: 22PLY 22PLY 22PLY 22PLY 2PLY

<after 19...Qf6 20. Rc2...Nxc3 21.bxc3 Nb5 22.Qc1>

2: World Team,a - GM Timmerman, Correspondence

click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit :

1. = (0.21): 22...Qe7 23.Nd2 f4 24.Qb2 Bf5 25.c4+ Qf6 26.cxb5 Bxc2 27.Qxc2 fxg3 28.hxg3 Rxe2 29.Qc5

2. ² (0.41): 22...Be6 23.Nd4 Nxd4 24.cxd4 Bd7 25.Qd2 Reb8 26.Rb2 Rxb2 27.Qxb2 Re8 28.e3 g5 29.Bh3

3. ² (0.42): 22...Rad8 23.c4 dxc4 24.Rxc4 Rxe2 25.a4 Nd6 26.Rcd4 Be8 27.Qc5 Nf7 28.Qxa5 Rb8 29.Bf1

4. ² (0.49): 22...Red8 23.c4 dxc4 24.Rxc4 Be8 25.Re1 Nd6 26.Rh4 h5 27.Ng5 Ra7 28.Rd4 Re7 29.Qf4

5. ² (0.67): 22...Nd6 23.c4 c5 24.Rxd5 Ba4 25.Rb2 Bc6 26.Rd3 Ra6 27.Ng5 h6 28.Nh3 g5 29.f4

(, Hewlett-Packard 28.11.2007)

Nov-28-07

delete   sentriclecub: *N*O*T*E* This is <IN PROGRESS> and I'll update the ply daily. 22PLY 22PLY 22PLY 22PLY 22PLY

<after 19...Qf6 20. Rc2...Nxc3 21.bxc3 Nb5 22.Qc1...Qe7>

2: World Team,a - GM Timmerman, Correspondence

click for larger view

Analysis by Rybka 2.3.2a mp 32-bit :

1. ² (0.29): 23.Nd2 Rad8 24.a4 Nd6 25.c4 Qf6 26.cxd5 cxd5 27.Nb3 Bxa4 28.Bxd5 Nb5 29.e3 Rd6

2. = (0.16): 23.Rb2 Nd6 24.Nd4 Qf6 25.e3 Red8 26.Qb1 Nc4 27.Rb7 Nd6 28.Rb6 Nc4 29.Rb3 Ra7

3. = (0.14): 23.Bf1 Na3 24.Rb2 Nc4 25.Rb1 c5 26.e4 fxe4 27.Bxc4 dxc4 28.Rb7 Rad8 29.Ng5 h6

4. = (0.10): 23.a4 Na3 24.Ra2 Nc4 25.Nd2 Qc5 26.Nxc4 Qxc4 27.Rb2 Rab8 28.e3 Be6 29.Bf3 Rxb2

5. = (0.01): 23.e3 Na3 24.Rb2 Nc4 25.Rb1 Bc8 26.Nd4 Qc7 27.Bf1 Ba6 28.a4 Kg8 29.Bg2 Rad8

(, Hewlett-Packard 28.11.2007)

Nov-29-07

delete   zanshin: I see you've been doing some analysis on Qf6-Rc2 too. I posted the results of my overnight run on my forum. If you have time, I'd prefer that you update the googledoc or create a new one. You're better at it than me and I don't know if you plan to do any more analysis on Rc2. Note that in the main forum, someone noted that this line needed more analysis. Nov-29-07

delete   sentriclecub: Am going to do the googledoc right now. Nov-29-07

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: CG has 1 font size, and only 2 black and highlight.> I decided to move out of 's forum. You can use the sticky to point to a post which contains the external link. Nov-29-07

delete   sentriclecub: this is the one that was previously labeled from 4 posts above depth 25

1. ² (0.33): 23.Nd2 Qxe2 24.a4 Nc7 25.c4 Qe7 26.cxd5 Nxd5 27.Nb3 Kg8 28.Nc5 Bc8 29.Rcd2 Nb4

2. = (0.21): 23.e3 Na3 24.Rb2 Nc4 25.Rb1 Rab8 26.Nd2 Rxb1 27.Qxb1 Ne5 28.Nf3 Ng4 29.Qc1 Be6

3. = (0.15): 23.Rb2 Nd6 24.Nd4 Qf6 25.e3 Red8 26.Qc2 Kh6 27.Rb6 Nc4 28.Rb3 Ra7 29.Qb1

4. = (0.14): 23.Bf1 Na3 24.Rb2 Nc4 25.Rb7 Nd6 26.Rb1 Qe4 27.Nd4 Qe7 28.Bg2 Qf6 29.Qa3 Nc4

5. = (0.09): 23.c4 Na3 24.Rcd2 Nxc4 25.Qxc4 dxc4 26.Rxd7 Rab8 27.Rxe7+ Rxe7 28.Bf1 Rb2 29.a4 c3 Nov-29-07

delete   zanshin: Just to make things more interesting, <MarkThornton> on the main GMT page has requested we add <20.Ne1> to our list. I can run an 18-19 ply analysis, but do we have space? Nov-29-07

delete   zanshin: I'm not going to analyze Ne1 any more since did so on my forum. Since you say we're over-extended, I suggest we omit Rc2 and Ne1 from further inclusion in the demo. <Boomie> pointed out that they are already analyzing Rc2 in 's forum. We can consolidate later if GMT plays Qf6. What do you think? Nov-29-07

delete   sentriclecub: I'll add 20. Ne1

I saw he asked RV to supply the analysis.

If RV covers the analysis and posts on his forum-header, I'll remove 20. Ne1 from our forum header.

The more that forums overlap, the less need for people to visit both. Nov-29-07

delete   sentriclecub: It looks like they are covering

20. Rc2

and not 21. Rc2

I'll work on the forum all day tomorrow. Nov-29-07

delete   zanshin: <It looks like they are covering 20. Rc2 and not 21. Rc2> I'm confused. Aren't we also covering 20.Rc2?

Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: Oh, duh, what was I thinking.

You're right, I am not thinking straight. That extension made me not keep current with the forum assignment.

I'll update the forum to include it. Nov-30-07

delete   zanshin: You said you were an editor for Wikipedia. Please look at the CG request on the chessgames forum and you might be able to help. Thanks. PS I know you're swamped right now ... sorry. Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach... This is google's archived version of the wikipedia article, before it got deleted.

Here's the copy/paste

ChessGames.com is a web-based chess database and community. It contains over 400,000 searchable chess games and offers daily features, such as a "Game of the Day" and a "Puzzle of the Day", taken from games in the database. Among its members are several notable chess players as Gert Jan Timmerman, Susan Polgar, Yury Shulman, Maxim Dlugy, Lawrence Day, Eric Schiller, Raymond Keene, Arno Nickel, Nigel Short and Yelena Dembo.

Registration is free and enables users to discuss games, openings, tournaments, etc. by leaving a comment in the "Kibitzer's Corner" found on almost every page of the site. Registered users can also create game collections and write a personal profile.

Posters can post a chess diagram by typing the position in Forsyth-Edwards Notation.

In early 2006, the site launched a multiplayer online game called "ChessBookie." This is a gambling simulation in which players compete by wagering playmoney (called "chessbucks") on real-world chess events.

Users can also pay for Premium Membership, which provides the following items, among others:

Guess-the-Move. A chess-training tool where the player receives points by correctly guessing the move that a grandmaster played in a chess game.

Opening Explorer. From the initial position, a user can click on the moves that lead to openings of interest, in order to select and review games from that particular opening.

Endgame Explorer. A user can select a given collection of material — for example, king and two pawns versus king and one pawn — and review games in which this endgame occurred.

Sacrifice Explorer. A user can select games with sacrifices of a given piece, for example, a queen, or search for sacrifices of their favorite player or opening. Most chess enthusiasts consider sacrifices to be among the most interesting chess moves; learning the reason for a sacrifice also increases tactical skill. Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: The site offers two forms of team games. In one, premium members who sign up are randomly assigned to "Team White" or "Team Black," and the two sides play a game, with moves being determined by simple majority vote. Though team membership is redistributed between games, Team White currently holds a 1.5 - 0.5 lead in the series. In October, the two sides began a third game under a randomly-determined Chess 960 starting position.[1] The site has also hosted a series of "Chessgame Challenges" in which the membership is teamed as "The World" and challenged to play a game against a resident grandmaster and/or correspondence champion. The World currently has a 2.0 - 0.0 record in this series.

The World vs Arno Nickel (August, 2006 - January, 2007), 1-0 [2]

Yury Shulman vs The World (January, 2007 - July, 2007), 0-1 [3]

The World vs Gert Jan Timmerman (August, 2007 - ), Currently underway [4] According to ChessGames.com, about 80,000 users have registered altogether, and 17% are currently active. A 2005 online survey indicated that of about 1,000 respondents, more than 97% were men. The median rating is in the 1600-1799 range, as measured by the ELO rating system.

Like many online chess game collections, ChessGames.com contains flaws in its database. In some rare cases the moves are incorrect, but the most common problem is that one player is listed under two different names, such as "Bernd Stein" and "Stein Bernd". Errors, when reported, are usually fixed promptly.

[edit] External links ChessGames.com Chess Statistics ChessBookie Game Chess Opening Explorer Utility Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChessG..." Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: <Users can also pay for Premium Membership, which provides the following items, among others:> This is probably the poison pill.

The whole article was written as if it was begging for a deletion. It was written like an advertisement and it didn't have the tone like it was written by amateurs.

I'm neutral in the deletion of the article, after reading the edits and comments left by the admins, it was a fair call, although I hate to see it go. Nov-30-07

delete   zanshin: <I'm neutral in the deletion of the article, after reading the edits and comments left by the admins, it was a fair call, although I hate to see it go.> I hate to agree with you but after reading the article myself, I'm not surprised. I think that CG would appreciate it if we re-wrote the article most likely with their assistance, and resubmitted to Wikipedia. Are you familiar with this at all? Although we're pretty busy with the GMT game (and I'm also playing in the 960 version), CG does a lot for us and maybe this is something we can do in return. Maybe we can ask the others for help. What do you think? Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: Well, I'd wait a little while for wikipedia's guard to come down. Like maybe sneak it in over christmas new-year's. Also, throw in a smoke-screen, which is when you try to distract those same admin's who were involved in deletion of CG by vandalizing lots of other pages per day that those admins also watch or also have vested interest in.

Wikipedia admins are stubborn and believe themselves to be zealous protectors of the popular website.

That's how I was able to make some much-needed edits in wikipeda on pages that were highly policed. Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: Hey Zanshin,

I recommend taking down your forum header, and putting a note "undergoing major overhaul--will be ready again Dec 02"

One reason I've been holding back on update, is that I don't want Qf6 to be up-to-date whenever the summary is published. I have about 7 more data-sets ready to put in, and I don't want to seem oppositional by telling the summarizer not to summarize Qf6. Instead, i'll let him summarize it with insufficient/old/bad data, that way I can come over the top of him, and do better coverage of Qf6 and my summary will be based on more + better data. Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: To be honest, I'm worried that 20. Rc2 can be killed, and also 20. Nd4...Reb8 21. Rc2 can be killed by an incompetent or biased summary. I have analyzed 20. Nd4...Reb8 21. e3 to go nowhere, and also 20. e3 to go nowhere, and if the summarizer bashes all my work on the early Rc2 lines, (not to mention RV's 28 ply line touting an early Rc2), then I'd feel like I was cheated somehow.

Hard to explain, just protecting Rc2 like its my child or something I guess. I am an obsessed winner, and maybe its my killer-insticts that want me to deviate to help ensure the group's success.

I just feel that since the Qf6 forums are so easy to read, to not summarize them, but let people read your forum header, and ZeroOne's forum header (all of a 10 minute investment) and let people make a decision for themselves. < Earlier Kibitzing · PAGE 16 OF 23 ·  Later Kibitzing > Nov-30-07

delete   zanshin: <I recommend taking down your forum header, and putting a note "undergoing major overhaul--will be ready again Dec 02"> I don't see why I need to take down the forum. Remember that the main purpose is to demo the data-tree concept, not to outdo someone else's analysis. It's not going to be very convincing to the Team if they visit the demo forums and see a sign saying "Under Construction".

As long as your definitive analysis is presented before any decision has to be made, then we should be ok. Nov-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: That sounds fine. I'm going to try to learn how to do the summary on youtube, and show my screenshots. Dec-01-07

delete   tpstar: One statement which clearly rings false is "Errors, when reported, are usually fixed promptly" where even the most devoted cg.com member would politely label that as a misrepresentation. =) The flip side is how the Administrators keep tight control over this database which prevents foul play or else making errors worse. I volunteer to prepare a revision (more biography and less salesmanship) based on the original deleted version plus this site's response. With your permission, I'll post it here so others could add comments and make suggestions. How about we work on this in the week between Christmas and New Year's, and then resubmit it to our Wikipedia friends. Or at least, your Wikipedia friends. ;>D Dec-02-07

delete   zanshin: The other reason I did not want to take down my forum header was because of the possibility GMT would not play Qf6 which renders our analysis moot. As you can see from your forum, I was in the camp that predicted he would in fact play Qe7. To me, GMT has been quite predictable recently. He goes with the safe engine lines. To me, there was no safer engine line than Qe7. The only reason I'm almost break-even with the Chess Bookie is because of the $400 I just netted betting on Qe7. Time to start analysis on my new line. I've fired up Fritz and will post the possible lines in a few hours. Dec-02-07

delete   zanshin: <tpstar: I volunteer to prepare a revision (more biography and less salesmanship) based on the original deleted version plus this site's response. With your permission, I'll post it here so others could add comments and make suggestions.> Why don't we do this on your forum instead? 's and mine are quite busy, and yours isn't even open! I've been in touch with CG regarding revising the wikipedia article. Please open your forum and we can discuss further over there. Dec-04-07

delete   sentriclecub: Sounds good, I'll check his forum header, but allow him to use my forum for the next 10 days as Rxe7 is forced. Dec-04-07

delete   sentriclecub: Recent Chessforum Activity Dec-04-07

delete   zanshin: I'm glad opened his forum for the wikipedia revision. I'll post there shortly. I'm re-running the first line in my forum. Hopefully I will be able to let the computer run uninterrupted long enough to get a 20+ ply level and 6 lines. I noticed a typo though, you placed Na6 instead of Ne6 throughout. I'll correct in the header if you'll do so in the googledoc. Dec-04-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: <sentriclecub: Recent Chessforum Activity By the way MAJ, the above link is very useful, for if 2 ppl are trying to talk to each other, on different forums.> I am not sure why you thought I needed that reminder. This is one of my bookmarked pages for CG. I configured a CG-related menu with a number of internal links to CG, and with one click, my browser opens all of them in separate tabs). Dec-05-07

delete   sentriclecub: GUESS-THE-MOVE

19...Qf6 rinus Imag Whiteshark Sentriclecub Thorsson isemeria isemeria Sequoia weisyschwarz Kwesi zsoydd RedOctober tensor Tabanus kwid Toastman

19...Qe7 *twinlark* *ElixerOfLife* *Zanshin* *Yourang* *kwgurge* *HoodRobin* *melianis* *stukkenjager* *truefriends* *ChessNe1* *pacorrum* *karnak64* *Artar1* *KingsIndian* *nimh* *Hugin* Dec-05-07 delete   Judah: 20...RxQ Dec-11-07 delete   truefriends: 21... Rb8 Dec-11-07

delete   imag: 21...Rb8 but I'll be very happy if I'm wrong :) . Dec-11-07

delete   melianis: 21...Na6 Dec-11-07

delete   YouRang: 21...Rb8 Dec-11-07

delete   rinus: 21...Rb8 and I'll be very happy if I'm right.

, we want the best counterplay! Dec-11-07

delete   weisyschwarz: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   lonepsycho: 21. ... Rb8 of course Dec-12-07

delete   MarkThornton: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   ChessNe1: hey, i forsee 21...Na6. Dec-12-07

delete   zanshin: GMT will undoubtedly play 21...Rb8. Dec-12-07

delete   dalbertz: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07

delete   kwgurge: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   zsoydd: 21. .. Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   lopium: I follow the computers : 21...Rb8. Dec-12-07

delete   Hugin: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   krpvksprv: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   Sequoia: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07 delete   John Doe PE: 21...Rb8 Dec-12-07

delete   OhioChessFan: <........Rb8> Dec-12-07

delete   Thorsson: ...Rb8 Dec-12-07

delete   Artar1: 21...Rb8 Dec-13-07

delete   RandomVisitor: 21...Rb8 Dec-13-07

delete   nimh: 21...Rb8 Dec-13-07

delete   zanshin: Forum header has been updated with v3. Dec-13-07

delete   zanshin: The top fen was still wrong in the update so I corrected it in the forum but not in the googledoc. Dec-13-07

delete   whiteshark: I would be surprised if it's not <21...Rb8> Dec-14-07

delete   sentriclecub: GUESS THE MOVE

21...Rb8 truefriends Imag YouRang Rinus Weisyschwarz Sentriclecub lonepsycho MarkThornton Zanshin dalbertz kwgurge zsoydd lopium Hugin krpvksprv Sequoia JohnDoepe OhioChessFan Thorsson Artar1 RandomVisitor nimh whiteshark

21...Na6 melianis ChessNe1

Dec-14-07

delete   sentriclecub: last minute votes still welcome

its 4 hours until changeover Dec-14-07 delete   Aurora: Black will play 21...Rb8. Dec-14-07

delete   Waitaka: I vote 21...Rae8 Dec-14-07

delete   YouRang: There goes my correct-prediction streak. :-( Dec-14-07

delete   zanshin: <YouRang: There goes my correct-prediction streak. :-(> Worse, there go my chessbucks :-( Dec-14-07

delete   rinus: It's 0% on move 21!! Dec-15-07

delete   sentriclecub: lol, I planned wrong

I'll go back and re-edit everything. Dec-17-07

delete   ZeroOne: Hey, what do you think I should do with my forum header now that it's not really needed for the data tree anymore (at least for a while)? Can I just delete it or should I change it to something more compact? Dec-17-07

delete   whiteshark: <22....Ra6> and a 100% voting prediction, too Dec-24-07

delete   zanshin: I'm back .. a little earlier than planned. If Ne5 wins, will not assign me a move for a couple of turns. Dec-26-07

delete   zanshin: It looks like you're taking a break from CG. That's cool. I just posted a quick data tree demo for the move assigned. I pasted the contents directly into my header, no intermediate googledoc but I can create one for you if you want. Dec-29-07

delete   rinus: Guess: 25...Ng5

Dec-29-07

delete   weisyschwarz: 25...Ng5 Dec-30-07

delete   nimh: 25...Ng5 Dec-30-07

delete   sentriclecub: Guess-the-move is kinda impossible with his 1-day-moves. Dec-30-07

delete   rinus:

Just this move it's such a nice game to play! Dec-30-07

delete   whiteshark: 25...Nf6 Dec-30-07 delete   lonepsycho: Put me down for 25. ... Nf6. Dec-30-07

delete   zanshin: Hey, I was wondering where you were. Thanks for the update. I'll keep plugging away at the data-tree demo for now. As for google stock, you had to be connected or already rich to be able to get in at $100. Dec-31-07 delete   Boerboel Guy: 25...Nf6 Dec-31-07 delete   isemeria: 25...Nf6 Dec-31-07

delete   zanshin: 25...Nf6 Dec-31-07

delete   YouRang: 25...Ng5 Dec-31-07

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: First, he'll take an extension, then 25...Ng5 Dec-31-07 delete   Danpev: I think he will play Ng5 Dec-31-07 delete   Bob726: He will play NF6 Dec-31-07

delete   imag: 25...Nf6 Dec-31-07

delete   kwgurge: 25...Nf6 Dec-31-07

delete   hms123: 25....Nf6 Jan-01-08 delete   Aurora: Black will play 25...Nf6. Jan-01-08

delete   melianis: I'm going for 25...Nf6, since GMT has surprised me many times this might be one as well. Jan-01-08

delete   Hugin: 25....Nf6 Jan-01-08

delete   hoodrobin: <25...Ng5> Jan-01-08 delete   Elixir of Life: <25...Ng5>

After 25...Nf6 26. Rc5, the position is very messy and we have lots of potential winning lines. It would be a miracle if he survives, and he definitely won't like the line. Therefore, he will move <25...Ng5>

He will NOT make an extention. Jan-01-08

delete   zanshin: Hi, Happy New Year to you too! Jan-02-08

delete   ZeroOne: Sounds OK, although even a 3-deep tree with five new nodes coming from each node would take 125 nodes. But it's certainly doable. Jan-04-08

delete   sentriclecub: GUESS THE MOVE

25...Ng5 Sentriclecubn Rinus weisyschwarz nimh YouRang Mostly_Average_Joe hoodrobin Elixer_of_life

25...Nf6 *whiteshark* *Lonepsycho* *Boerboel_guy* *isemeria* *Zanshin* *imag* *kwgurge* *hms123* *Aurora* *melianis* *Hugin*

Jan-04-08

delete   YouRang: 26...Nc7 Jan-04-08

delete   dalbertz: I'm gonna guess Na7. Jan-04-08 delete   ontocaustic: Nc7 Jan-04-08

delete   dalbertz: P.S. I think you're first choice was supposed to be Nc7. Ne7 is not possible. Jan-04-08

delete   rinus: Guess: 26...Nc7 Jan-04-08

delete   dalbertz: I've gotta chancho my vote, if possible. Na7 looks bad - I expect Nc7 now. Jan-04-08

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: Nc7, and he'll blitz it tomorrow. Jan-04-08

delete   kwgurge: 26...Nc7 Jan-04-08

delete   zanshin: This move is forced ... Nc7. We don't even have a forum for Na7! Jan-04-08

delete   RandomVisitor: Nc7 is forced, I agree. The move will be played tomorrow. Jan-04-08

delete   hcbsb: 26...Nc7 Jan-04-08

delete   whiteshark: 26...Nc7 - no surprise! Jan-05-08 delete   lonepsycho: ...Nc7 Jan-05-08 delete   Elixir of Life: <Nc7> and blitz. Jan-05-08 delete   Aurora: Black will play 26...Nc7. Jan-05-08

delete   zanshin: I had a look at the googledoc and read your post in <RV>'s forum. Do you want me to put the demo on hold for now? The Team probably gets the idea by now. What do you think? Jan-05-08

delete   nimh: ...Nc7 Jan-05-08 delete   cheski: <Hello there sentriclub.> I had a look at your proposal to set out all the possibilities for the GMT game from hereon in. Very scientific!

Do you mean to have people select a line they fancy and then work on it?

Just in case that is your intention, I named the blocks, so that one could choose say <//Block 12// line 1>, which would prevent duplication as well as facilitate comparison.

The line mentioned would be my choice. I have started looking at it:

<<27.Bf1 Re6 28.f4 Ng4 29.Nxg4 fxg4 30.Rc5 Kf8 <31.Rd2 (deviating from RV's line here)> Rd6 32.e4 Ne6 33.Rc1 >>

Jan-05-08

delete   sentriclecub: Hi cheski,

I'm a math-science guy and my quantitative-analytical thinking style will hopefully influence the team's organization in a beneficial way.

I called it "featureless" purely to have no assumptions of what its limited to.

I see several different types of benefits, but I am soliciting feedback. If you would like to work on it with me, if the idea develops, drop your email address and we can discuss ideas. I could be missing some obvious creativities. Jan-05-08

delete   sentriclecub: To

The idea we are talking about is here...

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=d...

It is "featureless" so that no one will see its limitations, only its possibilities.

Suggestions encouraged. Jan-06-08

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: < sentriclecub: Hey MAJ What do you think of the overall idea behind my suggestion posted on RV's forum > Some questions:

What was exactly the process by which you obtained these 160 lines?

Why do all of them start with 27. Bf1 and no other white moves are considered? This seems to imply that the amount of work needed to accelerate the analysis is much lower than it really is.

Are you sure you have eliminated lines that transpose into each other?

I am assuming that this would eventually evolve into some kind of collaborative whiteboard, where evals could be added by team members, right? It will also likely get split into multiple pages.

Some general musings:

The format of the google doc http://docs.google.com/View?docid=d... is too flat to be readable. To most people, it will be a bit overwhelming. It needs to be hierarchized, e.g. instead of:

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. b4 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. exf5 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. exd5

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 29. Nd3 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 29. f4 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 29. e3

you might want to use:

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. b4  .. .  . 29. exf5 .  .   .   . 29. exd5

.  . 28. Rd2 Re6 29. Nd3 .  .   .   . 29. f4   .. .  . 29. e3

There is one feature that needs to be added there to make the idea more clear for the team: it really needs some valuations after consecutive moves (those would be the initial values used to select the lines, and subject to change after enhanced analysis). The lines that need to get most attention would be those that have most favorable valuations (when it is our move) or least valuable (when it is opponent's move).

There needs to be some way for team members to mark a line as "being analyzed".

If the original list of lines is computer-generated, there needs to be some way to insert human ideas, too (once the project reaches implementation stage allowing for collaboration).

BTW, I don't know whether you caught a glimpse of one of my backslide reports, e.g., Deep Breath chessforum -- I tried to show there the valuations of the possible alternate moves, including highlights of variants that need more analysis. This is the kind of information that I would consider helpful to choose the place to contribute -- but am not sure whether many people found them readable.

Gotta sleep now. Cheers & Happy New Year. Jan-06-08

delete   imag: 26...Nc7 Jan-06-08

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: I have my computer back, I'll create the next forum assignment that Kutz gives you.> That would be great! As you can see from the pitiful ply-levels I posted, I didn't get much computer time for this move. Good thing it's of zero interest to the Team. Jan-06-08

delete   hcbsb: Only to speculate, I changed my vote to Na7. It is a difficult line, despite White holds an advantage and probably wins. Jan-06-08

delete   hcbsb: I come back to 26...Nc7, I found a good sequence for White in this line.

Jan-06-08

delete   weisyschwarz: 26...Nc7. Jan-07-08

delete   zanshin: OK, has assigned the forums and no surprises here. "Mi casa, su casa." ;-) Jan-07-08

delete   dalbertz: I'm going to go with the following sequence, just for fun: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ne4 29. Bg2 Rd6 30. Bxe4 Jan-07-08

delete   sentriclecub: Again,

all the variations are listed here.

http://docs.google.com/View?docid=d... Jan-07-08

delete   zanshin: <sentriclecub: Hey, seeing as Rc2 is a dead-move and (dead forum), lets wait until you get a new forum assignment.> It's not going to change with the next forum assignment. I'm sorry that you got discouraged when you put in all that time for a low priority move, but I thought you were aware that per my request, always assigns me low priority moves. When I took on the role of "Quality Control Manager" (updating stickies and copying posts to relevant forums), I asked for low priority moves because I did not want to be saddled with also having to maintain a high priority forum. If you want this situation to change, we'll need to discuss it with him. Jan-07-08

delete   zanshin: I vote: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Rb6 29. Rc5 Rxb2 30. Rxa5 If I counted right, this is Block 11 line 2 Jan-07-08

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ng4 29. Nxg4 fxg4 30. Rc5

Block 12, line 1 Jan-08-08

delete   Hugin: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ng4 29. Nxg4 fxg4 30. Rd2 Jan-08-08

delete   rinus: For this one: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ng4 29. Nxg4 fxg4 30. Rc5. Jan-08-08

delete   imag: 27. Bf1 Nd7 28. Nc4 Re6 29. e4 fxe4 30. fxe4

Block 2, line 1

Jan-08-08

delete   melianis: block 15, line 2 Jan-08-08

delete   nimh: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Rb6 29. Rc5 Rxb2 30. Rdc1 Jan-08-08

delete   sentriclecub: Thank you to everyone for the great participation so far. I'll work on the design to make it easier to read. Thanks teammates! Jan-08-08

delete   hms123: 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rc2 Rb6 29. Rdc1 block 30 line 1 Jan-08-08

delete   kutztown46: block 12, line 1 Jan-09-08 delete   truefriends: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Rb6 29. Rc5 Rxb2 30. Rdc1

Block 11 line 1 Jan-09-08

delete   zanshin: <Now every time I churn analysis for the team, it reminds me of feeling like an idiot ;)> Well, you shouldn't. I know you place value on the analysis itself .. and I'm not saying this is wrong, but remember that the main reason for the demo was to show to the Team the merits of a systematic data-tree approach. The fact that <CG> is considering a proposal from based on your idea is noteworthy. If <CG> implements anything resembling the proposal, then you will have made a permanent contribution to the <CG> community and future World Teams, regardless of what happens to the moves being analyzed, or the entire GMT game for that matter.

If I were you, I would be proud to join a future World Team and mention that the data/analysis-tree in use was derived from my original concept. Jan-09-08 delete   cheski: Hello again I put the BLOCK coordinates on my bio.

You decide if you want to take it over.

I wouldn't like to leave it in my bio too long, as I am not a Premium member at the minute and I don't want to take advantage of CG.com's good nature.

Jan-09-08

delete   Waitaka: <sentriclecub: I saw your post on CG's forum. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...;

Sorry, I dont know what post you are refeering to, neither the goal of the link you provided.

Maybe you are talking about the PGN viewer? The animated game you posted was generated by a PGN viewer? Jan-09-08

delete   sentriclecub: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immort...

The PGN viewer at the top right.

It is a GIF

It would not be all that difficult for chessgames.com to allow us to insert a GIF image into our message using the above-code, for example.

Jan-09-08

delete   sentriclecub: Hey Cheski,

Could you go one step further and utilize MostlyAvgJoe's suggestion about 20 posts above (it might be one page back).

Either. . . . spaceholders

or have the repeated moves in a different color.

<MostlyAvgJoe: It needs to be hierarchized, e.g. instead of:

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. b4 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. exf5 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. exd5

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 29. Nd3 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 29. f4 27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 29. e3

you might want to use:

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. b4 .. . . 29. exf5 . . . . 29. exd5

. . 28. Rd2 Re6 29. Nd3 . . . . 29. f4 .. . . 29. e3>

Or

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. b4

<27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6> 29. exf5

<27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6> 29. exd5

<27. Bf1 Nce8> 28. Rd2 Re6 29. Nd3

<27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6> 29. f4

<27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6> 29. e3

or

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 29. b4

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 <29. exf5 >

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. e4 Rb6 <29. exd5 >

27. Bf1 Nce8 <28. Rd2 Re6 29. Nd3 >

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 <29. f4 >

27. Bf1 Nce8 28. Rd2 Re6 <29. e3 >

As for your statement <I wouldn't like to leave it in my bio too long, as I am not a Premium member at the minute and I don't want to take advantage of CG.com's good nature.> The owner's of CG Alberto A Artidiello and Daniel Freeman have said many times, that they operate this site because of all the appreciation of its users.

I'm sure that if either co-founder won the lottery, or married a super-model, they would give everyone free premi memberships. They only charge the $25 to pay the bills, by the users who are most able + willing. They don't use "recurring billing" or fill up your inbox with spam, like ruthless capitalists. Rather, they are benevolent liberals who see users as welcomed guests in their online house.

They won't mind if you use your bio, to help the world-team.

Also, keep checking this forum, for I'll be seeking volunteers for hierarchal and other improvements, especially ideas. Jan-09-08

delete   sentriclecub: That particular GIF image is 900 kilobytes Jan-09-08

delete   Waitaka: </diagram start position

rnbqkbnr/pppppppp\8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1

moves:

e4 e5 f4 exf4 Bc4 Qh4+ Kf1 b5 Bxb5 Nf6 Nf3 Qh6 d3 Nh5 Nh4 Qg5 Nf5 c6 g4 Nf6 Rg1 cxb5 h4 Qg6 h5 Qg5 Qf3 Ng8 Bxf4 Qf6 Nc3 Bc5 Nd5 Qxb2 Bd6 Bxg1 e5 Qxa1+ Ke2 Na6 Nxg7+ Kd8 Qf6+ Nxf6 Be7

end/

>

This is really a good suggestion.

Why dont you post that on CG.com forum? Jan-09-08

delete   sentriclecub: I think I annoy them, I'm too creative for my own good! Jan-09-08 delete   truefriends: Like to change my vote to:

27. Bf1 Nd7 28. Nc4 Re6 29. e4 Ra7 30. Bh3

Block 1 line 1

Jan-09-08

delete   sentriclecub: Block 1 Line 1

Excellent choice. It'll be updated tomorrow. Jan-09-08

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: <sentriclecub, [on another forum] ... MAJ you have been a great help with advancing data-tree influence, and your a nice person, and I consider you a friend here on chessgames.com. I would not want to lose that, and I feel that if we continued this discussion on a public forum, it would be only for selfish reasons...> Thanks for the nice words, and be assured that the respect is mutual.

I hate to leave unresolved disagreements, particularly when I am convinced that my opinion was correct, but I have been known to change my mind in presence of good arguments, so why don't you go ahead and email me at my gmail.com account to keep the discussion private. Just prepend mostlyaveragejoe@ in front of the aforementioned domain name.

Don't worry about hurting my feelings; if I am mistaken in my opinions, I will welcome a correction -- it is never too late to learn anything new. Jan-10-08

delete   dalbertz: dalbertz: Switching my selection for the line to come: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ne4 29. Bg2 g5 30. e3

Block 16 line 1 Jan-10-08

delete   sentriclecub: <continued this discussion on a > well paid attention to detail. I'd love to continue this discussion privately. Give me some time to brush up on my statistics. probably 2-3 days. Jan-10-08

delete   sentriclecub: Alrighty, switches are heavily encouraged for Guess-The-Variation, because naturally people will make better decisions when they review more analysis and have more time. Jan-10-08

delete   sentriclecub: I'll update the variations list within 4 hours. Jan-10-08

delete   zanshin: I sent you the link to the googledoc. Remember, don't burn yourself out over the move ;-) Jan-11-08

delete   JoeWms: Just curious. Those punctuation marks at the front of your profile: Random or purposeful? Jan-11-08

delete   hoodrobin: Vote for Block 14 Line 1. Jan-12-08

delete   ZeroOne: My guess for now: Block 9, line 1 (the only line...). Jan-13-08

delete   Tabanus: 27.Bf1 Nd7 28.Nc4 Re6 29.e4 fxe4 30.fxe4

= Block 2 (line 1) Jan-14-08

delete   nimh: I have completed collecting data on 1500 positions of la Bourdonnais' games. And so if you want to exploit your thorough knowledge in statistics on it, give me you e-mail address and I'll send you the .ods file. Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: @yahoo.com Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: Updates complete Jan-14-08

delete   rinus:, No

<MostlyAverageJoe: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ng4 29. Nxg4 fxg4 30. Rc5

Block 12, line 1> Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: thanks rinus Jan-14-08

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: <sentriclecub: Hey, to keep it crystal clear, what is the one main nicely-worded description of what we are on opposite sides?> Authors position: they measured the quality of the moves.

My position: they measured similarity of the moves to those played by the modified Crafty, a very different thing. Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: Well, not the most comfortable starting point for me to try to work from. To begin with, I'll open up with a couple conservative thoughts. Why do you think you received this insight that the authors lacked? If they ever did see or think what you said, shouldn't they abandon their work at that moment and find a new interest? To the author: are they denying that they measured the similarity of the moves to those played by Crafty, a very different thing? Would they assert that they are measuring the similarity of those moves to those played by crafty, a very different thing? To you: are you denying that they measured the quality of the moves? Would you assert that they are measuring the quality of the moves? All 4 questions taken alone and by themselves independently. Will await your response, and I probably will be asleep by the time I finish this last set of analysis that I'm doing for the 960 team. But will answer back tomorrow. Jan-14-08

delete   whiteshark: (27. Bf1 Nd7 28. Nc4 Re6 29. e4 fxe4 30. fxe4 - it's the only line given there) :D Jan-14-08

delete   JoeWms: The lines of <> and = in front of your profile page: Are they random or are they a purposeful code? Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: btw <MostlyAverageJoe> Handing me the debate arranged the way you presented it, and the clever wording that if I try to question the implied conclusion already buried in the nuanced "facts" so neatly laid out. and the word "position" itself altering only ever so slightly the meaning and direction of our ensuing debate, just begging my early stumble.

click for larger view

You must at least admit we disagree on the article, and your summary of where we disagree is slightly tilted in to your favor of pre-winning, as shown hypothetically in the picture. Jan-14-08

delete   MostlyAverageJoe: <sentriclecub: Try to recreate this but delete the doublespacing between the below images....> =       ==       ===

Is the above what you wanted?

Regarding our debate, I am not sure what is your objection to my initial statement and where did I change the meaning. If the word "position" is not appropriate there, replace it with "claim".

Quote from the authors: "The idea was to determine the chess players' quality of play (regardless of the game score), which was evaluated with the help of computer analyses of individual moves made by each player." It seems to me that my brief restatement of that claim did not change the meaning.

In response to your request for clarification:

<Why do you think you received this insight that the authors lacked?> No idea, and it does not matter anyway.

<If they ever did see or think what you said, shouldn't they abandon their work at that moment and find a new interest?> No, just correct the approach they took. In fact, they seem to have thought about the same things I did (e.g., comparing 12-ply with lower-ply analysis), and wrote another paper where this is discussed. I think they already figured out some of their initial misinterpretations - the second paper that does not use the word "loss" at all when talking about the difference between Crafty's moves and players' moves.

<To you: are you denying that they measured the quality of the moves?> Yes.

<Would you assert that they are measuring the quality of the moves?> Yes.

Note that by implication of using Crafty as gold standard, their ordering of the most accurate players is:

1) Crafty 2) Capablanca 3) Kramnik, etc.

except they skipped listing Crafty as the most accurate one. This allows claims that the resulting ordering of players is reasonable. Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: = == ===

close enough for me Jan-14-08

delete   sentriclecub: <where did I change the meaning> You didn't change the meaning but by .01%

A very good temporary anecdote is here

http://tartarus.org/martin/essays/b...

It is one statement with dozens of super-tiny variants, each changing the meaning between .001% to 100%

Those 4 answers you gave me, leave me with something to work with. I'll leave my next followup within 36 hours (but at least a brief followup within 18 hours).

The word position could have been switched with other candidate words, kind of like the subtleties between "essential", "required" and "necessary" in that website.

Paragraphs have 4 levels of structure, the first 3 are super-imposed.

The words a person uses to construct a sentence for a debate affect the entire paragraph and even up to the tone of the overall article. Also, different parts of the article influence perception of any particular cconstructed sentence.

Well, I was very hesitant because it left me with no good responses. I feel slight, minor misrepresentation when you said "Authors position: they measured the quality of the moves."

This statement is a lot less developed than the statement right below it. Its like you were sending me an pretty invitation to welcome my discourse onto the more stable of two catwalks with the discussing of your conclusion when rather I need to spend time exploring the perimeter of your foundation, to know your reticulum of thoughts for this intellectual endeavor before us, so that I can ever hope to make progress for either of us to find truth.

A famous author, and great lecturer Stephen Covey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephe... would sometimes open with an audience participation game, where everyone closes there eyes, and he asks them to point north, and keeping their arms outreached, he'd then tell them to open their eyes.

He would then pull out a compass and show them where North is. The point being that true north is not debatable, its not a majority vote, its not let 4 different people make their case and wait until the best case is made. True north is 100% what it is, no sidestepping that its a fact and there can be made no refutation. It is what it is.

I hope all is still pleasant. I think the 4 day rest was sufficient time allowed, and I prefer to keep the debate here, as it is useful for others to read, since it is directly related to Nimh, and is also valuable to our teammates that have interest in computer chess. Jan-15-08

delete   JoeWms: I'm a persistent bastred. What is the significance of the dozen or so lines of punctuation marks that (used to) precede your profile statement? Jan-15-08

delete   sentriclecub: The message 5 posts above, beginning with

Well, since ...

That message was for you.

I for one honor persistence. Quitters never amount to anything in life. Jan-16-08

delete   sentriclecub: That's true Joe,

without having my exact display settings, I don't know what it looks like.

The string of characters, were meaningless. Jan-16-08 delete   Elixir of Life: B12 L1: 27. Bf1 Re6 28. f4 Ng4 29. Nxg4 fxg4 30. Rc5 Jan-17-08

delete   nimh: Did you find anything interesting? Was the quality of play correlated with results? Jan-18-08

delete   sentriclecub: I'll get back to u nimh, want to re-analyze the Crafty paper alongside yours. Jan-19-08

delete   benjinathan: No prob. I am glad to be on the team with you. Apr-15-08

delete   zanshin: I read your note in my forum. I've started analysis on this position:

click for larger view

I do have a Quad and it is analyzing at about 330 kN/s. Hope that helps. Apr-15-08

delete   zanshin: PS I will let know that you are available for the temp forum rotation. I don't want to work you in while he is away because I don't want to make any real changes while he is gone. But as you know, he's a very accomodating guy. Apr-17-08

delete   sentriclecub: sounds good, we'll see what gmt plays today Apr-17-08

delete   zanshin: Not quite -- it's our move ;-) May-30-08

delete   hms123: Thanks for your comments on the <Advice>. I have replied in my forum so that others could benefit from the exchange. You have raised a very legitimate issue. I will re-post in the main forum. thanks. May-30-08

delete   hms123: You've made the masthead--I added the link to wikipedia with credit to you. thanks again. May-30-08

delete   sentriclecub: - -


 * hms123** SAYS: It also occured to me that the team does have "rules"--sociologists call them "norms"--whether we like it or not. Helping others navigate those rules seemed like a good idea.

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 * hoodrobin*** SAYS: It is a good idea. In most cases however people must learn this sort of how-to by themselves, or so it seems to me.

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 * zanshin*** SAYS: You really need to be more specific and point out the problems with these guidelines. I don't see how any of them can be viewed as problematic or elitist. They are based on common courtesies that should be practiced in real life.

As points out, they are guidelines. People don't need to follow them, but will benefit from knowing what is expected behavior on the main forum.

In case you don't know, he's an intelligent young man who likes to rock the boat in search of improvement. He sometimes writes provocative posts to try to get people to think. For example, he has advocated scrapping the forum system and vandalizing wikipedia pages (sentriclecub chessforum) in order to reinstate the CG entry. (I won't even get into that allegedly anti-semitic thread CG had to delete ;-))

I understand how academics think (I used to be one). I know you are receptive to new ideas and welcome constructive criticism, even when its anonymous. Just take what says with a grain of salt. It may lead to a better FAQ, but I wouldn't scrap everything yet ;-)

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 * chesstoplay*** SAYS: Howard,

I stand with 's post below.

Your effort is thoughtful and kind.

It is clear that you are looking out for everyone involved, new or established player, at this most amazing chess community.

Thank you!

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 * achieve*** SAYS: And I'd like to second that, for same reason.

Howard, if I may call you that here, you're one of the most constructive kibitzers I've met at CG. Just be careful that someone may read the rules and feel awkward about them and refrain from being as productive.

And you're in good company as well.

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- May-30-08

delete   sentriclecub: -
 * YouRang*** SAYS: LOL! It's deja vu all over again.

Before the GMAN game, I was trying to do something similar to what has done: come up with some guidelines to facilitate the coordination and communications between members.

I did this because I foresaw the potential problems with having a large number of people with widely various skill-levels and personalities and communication skills attempting to work together on a very difficult task.

And I received some reactions very similar to 's (although not always as polite).

I understand and appreciate 's comments and general reluctance to impose "rules" (or whatever you want to call them) on others. They can (in the absence of good reason) yield the kinds of problems he describes.

So, is there good reason in this case? I think we must consider some realities:

This is a team. Think of any team sport (basketball, soccer, baseball, whatever). Any of us who follow sports know that for any team to succeed, the members must agree to coordinate their efforts toward the common goal. If each individual player just does whatever he wants (even if he plays well!), the team will be falter.

More realities: The more players that you have, the more difficult it becomes to coordinate. Also, the more complicated the task, the more we need to communicate effectively. So, given that we have MANY players and that making good moves is complex, I would conclude that some effort to implement cooperation is certainly called for on our chess team.

The main difference between our team and other sports teams is that we really have no official 'enforcement'. We can't kick anyone off the team or "bench" a player. In fact, we have no 'coach' figure who imposes any authority over other players.

However, 'enforcment' of another, more natural kind does occur. If someone completely disregards the team's cooperation methods, they are free to do so. Usually what happens is that (1) they end up feeling frustrated that their work isn't getting the attention that they think they deserve, (2) they become an annoyance to the other members, leading to a bunch of detrimental posts revolving around petty disputes.

<Bottom line>: Look at the *intention* of the advice being offered. It is not to be elitist or oppressive or hostile. It's there for the benefit of anyone who WANTS to know how to make their work more effective in the context of a team effort.

If more can be said to make this intention clear to a prospective team member, then I'm all for it.

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- May-30-08

delete   sentriclecub: - -


 * sentriclecub*** SAYS: Well, my shortest reply can make two great points without being weakened by a long length. Zanshin is right about me-my message itself is just my creation. Might not necessarily reflect what I truely think, but its what I wish others to feel after they read it.

I think the team's intentions are good, but what if someone actually reads it and takes it the wrong way (afterall, see point #4).

To Avg-joe's Q <what point do you disagree with the most> -- 5a

What about point #7 <to quote somebody, use "<" and ">" around the quoted material, and preferabbly the person's name, so it stands out better.>

<sociologists call them "norms"> yes, I have a psyhological condition which makes me understand them all too well.

<The question is how do they learn it by themselves? By accidentally insulting others? By getting beaten up when they don't know what they have done wrong?> by emulating, and or replying to a specific comment on the main forum. For example, I sat out on the sidelines for like 2 months before I entered this game back in the middlegame. If I had read these rules, I would have sat out even longer, afraid to hurt the team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipe...

This is of the three links I posted, the most important one to read.

I'll reply to every point later, as I just woke up, and by adherence to my own rules, I gotta study for the next 10 hours, and then "playtime" later.

Thanks,

Sentriclecub/coke

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 * hms123*** SAYS: The wikipedia page is terrific--thanks for pointing me to it. I think I will add the pointer to the Advice page so others can find it easily later on.

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 * rinus*** SAYS: I feel some itching too, it's in that first sentence:

<How to be a good member of the Chessgames Challenge Team>

It's a bit patronizing, what to think of:

"Some ideas and tips for your membership of the Chessgames Challenge Team"

I don't think for instance, that will confirm to your 'good member' ideas, but for me he's a very valuable team member; not because I do agree with his ideas or ways of putting them, but he's a tasteful spice in the common soup.

And point 6.b again:

<Ask more questions than you give answers. Many team members are happy to explain and teach when asked. You should approach this game as a chance to learn more about chess, and not just as a chance to show how smart you think you are;>

<Ask more questions than you give answers> - If all team members were 'good team members' this would lead to an unstable system. (a chain reaction)

The part about the chances has been mentioned earlier.

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- May-30-08

delete   sentriclecub: - -


 * galumph*** SAYS: Although sentriclecub expresses himself well, his arguments are predominantly tautological. If new teammates aren't interested in following reasonable and well articulated advice about how to conduct themselves on this site, they won't. That is no reason not to provide the advice.

There is one substantive section in sentriclesub's argument with which I take great issue, and that is the suggestion that some team member's votes ought to count for more than others or that certain team members ought to have their votes discounted altogether. This truly smacks of elitism. Shall we require IQ testing before allowing new members onto the team? How about excluding anyone under the age of 18? Perhaps we could implement a policy whereby any prospective member who cannot solve a particular chess problem within a given length of time doesn't get to participate.

I love the game but I am a rank amateur, having never played in a tournament. Borris Spasky came to town once in the 1980's and I stuffed the ballot box to ensure I got a seat at the table in a simultaneous exhibition. He beat me in 30 something moves and on one move I got a "bravo" from him. I still tell that story 30 years later.

So, I have no rating and no experience in competitive chess. Yet I feel that I have been perfectly able to follow the analysis throughout this game. I felt I had good reason to vote for 25. f4 rather than f3 (along with half of the team). It is insulting for sentliclecub to suggest that my vote should count for less than his or kwid's or RV's.

As YouRang points out with his usual good humour, this is a team game. Those who have long chess histories and strong chess skills produce analysis, with or without the help of computers, then try to persuade the team to adopt their preferred course of action. The moves are debated and analysed and each team member casts a vote. We live or die on the strength of our collective analysis and the ability of our captains to influence the team to choose the best course.

I would go so far as to say that it is BECAUSE the team leaders have to influence the majority of the team members to their viewpoint that our team reaches such astonishingly deep levels of analysis. If the captains were to attempt to play the GMs alone, without the need to persude a majority of teammates to follow them, I suspect that the level of analysis would be shallower and the potential for acrimony greater.

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 * hms123*** SAYS: thanks for chiming in, but where does anyone suggest that some votes ought to count more than others? Here's what said <I agree more with chessgames.com's official member advice (Chessgames Challenge Help) that this team game is open for all, and that democracy is one person = one vote, no matter if you are an IM who has spent 30 hours analyzing this move, or if you are a beginner, who picks a move because you likes it and no other reason.> I think everyone agrees with that sentiment--it is not inconsistent with wishing that we all educate ourselves (to the extent possible given time, work, etc.) as well as possible before voting.

- May-30-08

delete sentriclecub


 * zanshin*** SAYS: Unless I have completely misunderstood 's post, he is not advocating that some members' votes count more than others. In fact, I read the opposite and he wants more free access to people just joining the Team.

In fact, it seems that one of your main objections is asking newcomers read the past few pages. This has always been part of netiquette, at least as it was taught to me. Just as in real life, you should not jump into a conversation with strangers at a party. You should listen first to get an understanding of the topic before offering your own input. If you feel this is outdated etiquette, that is your right - but don't be surprised when others are annoyed.

I may be old fashioned, but I am always irritated by newcomers asking questions like "Does he know you are using engines? Isn't that cheating?" Obviously, the newcomer has not bothered to familiarize him/herself with the basics of the forum, instead accusing the Team of cheating. To me is inappropriate and impolite behavior.

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 * hms123*** SAYS: great suggestions--done.

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 * galumph*** SAYS: You're right. I misread what sentriclecub wrote. Please let me apologize for attributing to you just the opposite sentiment to the one you intended.

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 * hms123*** SAYS: No problem. By the way, I have been outvoted on a few occasions--as have most on the Team. I still think I was right, but that's water over the dam, or under the bridge, or wherever water goes. Your willingness to follow the discussion is the important issue.

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 * YouRang*** SAYS: <I may be old fashioned...>

I agree with your points, so I suppose that I'm a member of the "old fashioned club" too. :-)

However, I would regret the notion that basic virtues, such as common courtesy and respect for others might ever become dated.

IMO, such virtues are timeless because eons of evolution have demonstrated that those who possess these virtues succeed better than those that don't.

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 * YouRang*** SAYS: Although you misinterpreted 's meaning, it doesn't diminish the validity of the points you make.

I liked this:

<I would go so far as to say that it is BECAUSE the team leaders have to influence the majority of the team members to their viewpoint that our team reaches such astonishingly deep levels of analysis. If the captains were to attempt to play the GMs alone, without the need to persude a majority of teammates to follow them, I suspect that the level of analysis would be shallower and the potential for acrimony greater.>

That the chief analysts must articulate their work for the benefit of the team in order to be effective is what makes these games valuable and enjoyable for all.

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May-30-08

delete   sentriclecub: -

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 * zanshin*** SAYS: <I agree with your points, so I suppose that I'm a member of the "old fashioned club" too. :-)>

You might be! I remember you pointing to those Concert for George links on youtube over in <OD>'s forum.

About and etiquette these youngsters: I think I'm beginning to sound like my Mom :-O

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 * sentriclecub*** SAYS: me too!

I am a 1300 on yahoo and 1150 on FICS blitz.

I too was heavily upset (more than any other move in this game or GMYS) that 25. f4 didn't win due to the unfair advertising campaign for f3.

Also, I think even amateurs can make good decisions about a chess move, if two complete/fair arguments are provided.

If the great players on our team, didn't have to prove their case, we wouldn't learn and get better!

I think enjoyment + learning + spreading chess are the benchmarks we should measure ourselves as performance objectives.

Well, I disagree that my arguements are tautological, but I would say I make "wordy" points so that I expose myself to contradictions which I can learn from. I'm open-minded and from experience, my style welcomes feedback and encourages responses. I don't make the same point twice using similar languages, but rather make one point extra slow, or go way off course only to leave subtle hints and let reader infer my conclusions.

I don't like preciseness. If a statement is what you wish to make, why not let others learn about you by delivering it in a less usual manner, or weave in some subtleties that help resolve an argument down the road.

In my support, I score well on Verbal comprehension testing(vrmcat, rclsat), so there is some merit in how I over analyze every choice of sentence, to investigate its contributions to the whole. Part:whole relations, and I'm also good at analogies--(http://www.eskimo.com/~miyaguch/tit...). So tautological? I make a point against it's strictest definition. But if someone reads fast (as perhaps indicated) then it is a fair assertion.

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 * galumph*** SAYS: Point taken. That last sentance almost made me LaughOutLoud.

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- ***sentriclecub*** SAYS: I'm glad the subtle joke made it through. I think this is a fun page. I also got a great laugh out of <hoodrobin: Besides, as sentriclecub/coke pointed out..>

Thanks, if anyone reads the advice and clicks the link, they'll understand the goal that all members want this to be a positive, constructive community for everyone.

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- May-31-08

delete   achieve: I have 2 questions for you re: the quote of me you used in one of your posts. 1) Why did you insert an entire sentence that I didn't say?

2) Why did you change the word "some", which I wrote, to "same"?

If you just had copy/pasted my post at 's forum these things could not have happened, could they?

This is what YOU wrote, presenting it as a quote of mine/someting I said:

< ***achieve*** SAYS: And I'd like to second that, for same reason.

Howard, if I may call you that here, you're one of the most constructive kibitzers I've met at CG. Just be careful that someone may read the rules and feel awkward about them and refrain from being as productive.

And you're in good company as well.>

May-31-08

delete   achieve: So this is what I wrote, directly following < peter / chesstoplay >'s post at the forum: "And I'd like to second that, for some reason.

Howard, if I may call you that here, you're one of the most constructive kibitzers I've met at CG.

And you're in good company as well."

May-31-08

delete   achieve: Sorry for triple posting, but I want to take away the impression that I may have given- that I would not applaud you re-posting the deleted posts. I do, and think it was a very good idea. ;-) May-31-08

delete   hms123: Fabulous! How did you do that? May-31-08

delete   sentriclecub: Sorry achieve, I was digging through my internet cache because hms actually deleted some relevant posts. I think maybe the post below yours was that, or two posts ran together or at the same time and didn't know who to attribute it to. What I did, was I had to "search" my browser cache, and open the internet-explorer's coded saved versions of the page.

The code was like this...

ÐÏ�à¡ ±� áÐÏ� à ¡ ± �á Ð Ï� à¡±�á � EMBED Equation.3 ��� Forces � EMBED Equation.3 ���

� EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 �� ���� EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ����� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ���

� EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ���

� EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ���� EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� sentriclecubs ��aJ� ÐÏ�à¡±�á

So I was attributing what people said by memory (using context clues). I definitely remembered Zanshin's, hms123's, and gaulumphs posts, but the rest I had to guess on.

hopefully, you can see yourself. Try deleting posts from your chessforum, and tell someone who has visited your chessforum in the last day, to figure out every post that you had deleted, by taking the fact that firefox and internet explorer have a browser cache. (these are the only tools I had, and had to pull a mcgeyver and be extra creative). I have zero technical knowledge of what I attempted, and only speculated that it was possible. May-31-08

delete   sentriclecub: Also, how do you have a copy of hms's deleted forum? Do you have the page 6 of his forum? I can't retrieve my very first post on his former page 6. May-31-08

delete   achieve: Thanks for your answer. I understand now. ;-) In a way of speaking of course.

I relied on memory too, and you did a fine job in any case!

I have less than zero technical knowledge on this! ;-) I work from memory only most of the time.

Jun-02-08

delete   hoodrobin: Hi sentriclecub/coke!



Are you a superdelegate?

Jun-02-08

delete   sentriclecub: No, but if I was one, I'd vote hillary.

Operation chaos! Jun-02-08

delete   hoodrobin: To the win!

(no politics, obviously). Jun-02-08

delete   Tabanus: <3 ���� EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� � EMBED Equation.3 ��� sentriclecubs> Jeez, I hope you're not able to predict what I'm going to post :) Jun-05-08

delete   Ed Trice: Tabanus,I knew you were going to say that.



Jun-06-08

delete   Ed Trice: To celebrate the Gothic Chess server finally being stabilized, the first person to beat me in Game in 15 + 5 seconds per move will be given $100. Three tries per customer. Website is http://www.Gothic-Chess.com hope to see you there! Jun-11-08

delete   sentriclecub: Another quick analogy is the opening-explorer. Lets remember that the opening explorer contains every game in the CG database. Lets change this just for a second. There are 466,536 games in the database. 255,550 games begin with 1.e4

Lets now say that white has a 54.77% chance of playing 1.e4

Lets interpret this as a prediction tool and ignore everything else.

Now 1...c5 is the most probable reply. It occurs 34.46% more frequently than the next most likely reply. In fact, it is played 36.32% of the time, every time that 1.e4 is played. 1...e5 in comparison is only played 27.01% of the time, every time 1. e4 is played. All other replies to 1. e4 are cumulatively represented with a 36.67% probability.

The probability of the 1.e4...c5 being played given the fact that 1. e4 has been played is 36.32% However, the odds that 1. e4 is played is only 54.77% of the time.

Now the prediction that both 1.e4 and 1...c5 are played, is the "probability of B given A" times the "probability of A"

54.77% X 36.32% = 19.89%

This can be verified by the fact that CG's database of 466,536 games that only 92,820 of them are 1.e4...c5

The result is very interesting as the majority of games do begin 1. e4...c5 but yet only 19.89% actually really truely do. Jun-11-08

delete   zanshin: Thanks for the comments on my forum. The idea of a probability-based analysis tree is interesting, but I don't get how you calculate the probabilities. It can't be based only on the number of possible moves, it also needs to include some evaluation of the strength of the move. The engines are the most unbiased estimators because they use deterministic algorithms. Since they don't always agree, I don't see how you can estimate a move probability given the 'distributed' nature of the Team's evaluations. Jun-11-08

delete   sentriclecub: Well, when I let 20 teammates guess the variation, as a whole it was pretty reasonable. Only 1 person out of the 20 chose a variation outside the list of ones which I thought were "95% or more likely" and several people got the first 3 right, and one person picked every move correctly, i think hoodrobin. The method of computing the probabilities isn't really that important, as long as equally likely moves have the same probability, and moves which are half as likely, have only half the probability, and as long as everythign sums to 1.

Just reading each forum and reading what people write, would be sufficient. Mainly the benefit would be for someone who wants to know the overall direction of a variation. Long forced lines clearly are the best point, a less-active contributor can jump in right away at the end of the forced sequence, instead of wasting his computer time learning what is already known, and can get to the sweet spot.

The details would be for a technical audience, and I don't want to include them in my posts (I did originally but deleted them as I didn't want the post to be about method itself) and so many other people read my post and I don't want to alienate other people from my ideas.