User:StreetballazCrunk/StoplightDiscussion

Discussion with Admin NawlinWiki
This article was deleted, but I was never really given a chance to prove his notability. The reason given for deletion was "Patent Nonsense". Despite the seemingly nonsensical nature of the article, I refer you to examples of Wikipedia articles describing professional wrestlers. It presents the material as fact, relying on the reader to understand that the achievements are not necessarily describing real life. (eg: After Jake Roberts lost a match... to Randy Savage,[9] Roberts planned on attacking Savage and his wife... with a steel chair). To someone unfamiliar with the world of professional wrestling, this would sound like patent nonsense. However, because the audience is assumed to understand that the world of professional wrestling is often farcical and not meant to be representative of reality, we know that this isn't the case.

The same applies with Stoplight. The world of streetball is similar to the world of professional wrestling. Much of it is theatrical bravado planned out in advance, with feuds being publicized and dealt with in equally dramatic fashions. The biographical details of Stoplight are entirely accurate. Please reconsider your deletion of the article.

StreetballazCrunk 01:23, 7 June 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk



We keep articles on professional wrestling when those articles cite reliable independent sources showing that the subjects of the articles are notable. Your article cited no sources at all showing the notability of either "Stoplight" or streetball in general. With sentences such as "He would later reach a peak height of 7'11"." and "the ashes of Stoplight floated away on the wind", it looks a whole lot more like this is something you and the guys made up at school one night. But, if you can come up with reliable independent sources, let me know. NawlinWiki 03:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)



1.) Regarding the notability of streetball in general... There is an article on Wikipedia extensively covering streetball. Ipso facto, I would say that streetball is notable.

2.) Regarding the notability of Stoplight, I'll get to that in a moment.

3.) Regarding the unrealistic aspects of Stoplight; the line between reality and fantasy is blurred. Again, I refer to the professional wrestling example. Proper context is required to fully understand the article. If one were to read an article about a wrestler without and understanding of wrestling culture, they might very well regard some of the more outlandish feats as facts (especially because they are described as such in the article). However, it is expected that, when reading the article, a modicum of context is required for it to make sense.

To further my point, we can look at examples describing characters from fictional universes. Their feats are described as if they are reality and based in fact; context is required to know that they are only reality and fact in their own fictional universe. Now, granted, with fictional characters, it is generally explicitly stated at the beginning of the article that "*Soandso* is a character in John Doe's "Book" series." However, again I refer back to the world of professional wrestling. By naming a character as a professional wrestler, it serves at a sort of disclaimer, explaining that the events are only presented as fact within the fictional universe of wrestling.

The same applies to Stoplight. Were one to be unfamiliar with the culture, one may believe that Stoplight truly did burst into flames and float away on the wind, or that he was close to 8 feet tall. However, (and this is a legitimate question and not just rhetoric) to what extent do we need to disclaim elements of fantasy? Streetball theatrics blend fantasy and reality; should we note each time they intersect so that we don't confuse potential newcomers? Or should we follow the lead of the articles on Wikipedia about professional wrestling and assume that an understanding of the "rules", so to speak, is implicit?

4.) The notability of Stoplight: I'm afraid you won't find sources online regarding Stoplight, or much of streetball in general for that matter. However, people, places and things were notable far before the advent of the internet. Just because something is not published on the internet does not imply a lack of notability. In fact, that assumption is inherently racist: the minority groups that generally engage in streetball are not the type of demographic who own/use computers. Thus, their sources of notability are not as easily accessible as others.

That's not to say there aren't sources available. The section "Stoplight's Presumed Death" is transcribed nearly directly from "A-TX Sreetball", a monthly publication that has been in print since 1992. Stoplight has a bio in "Courtz", a quarterly that documents rising streetball players and deals with current issues. The Courtz bio is where much of the biographical information was obtained. Granted, these are independent magazines and thus lack major mainstream exposure, but just because you can't research something comfortably from your computer desk, cup of coffee in hand, doesn't mean it's not notable.

Finally, this isn't an attempt at promotion. It's written from a neutral point of view, without a marketing or otherwise self-serving interest in mind. It's part of a collective effort to raise awareness of streetball culture.

That being said, I can rewrite the article to ground it in reality and make it sound a little bit less fantastic to the casual reader. Additionally, I can include documented sources that not only indicate Stoplight's notability, but back up the veracity of the article. Is this acceptable?



Thanks for your note. Wikipedia policy on writing about fictional events is stated at Manual of Style (writing about fiction). In short, "Wikipedia articles should describe fiction and fictional elements from the perspective of the real world, not from the perspective of the fiction itself." So, if Stoplight is a well-known legend among streetballers, and you can provide reliable sources establishing this, then you can write an article that begins something along the lines of "Stoplight is a legendary fictional streetball player... " and go from there. Thanks, NawlinWiki 14:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. The problem I am encountering while trying to rewrite the article is twofold. The first one is easily remedied, I think... I can't find the original source of the deleted article. I think it would probably be easier for both of us if I edited the original rather than doing a complete rewrite. Do you have access to the original, by any chance?

Also, the second problem is that I can't really decide on which perspective to take in the article. Your suggestion of prefacing the article with "Stoplight is a legendary fictional character..." is helpful, but it's not 100% representative of Stoplight's status. Stoplight himself is a real person, but many of his accomplishments and feats are fictionalized. I keep referring back to the professional wrestling analogy because it seems to be what most closely mimics the status of Stoplight. Professional wrestlers are real people but they are more or less actors playing out a part on stage. The wrestling is real, as are the games of basketball that are played, but the theatrics, drama, and choreography are (for the most part) planned in advance.

What about establishing that Stoplight is a persona? Something to the effect of, "Stoplight is a legendary streetball persona who has gone on to perform numerous groundbreaking feats in the fictional culture of streetball?" What I want to establish is that the events take place in reality despite being rooted in fiction. Any suggestions on how to do that in such a way that is consistent with the rest of Wikipedia? StreetballazCrunk 15:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk



You wrote: <> With respect, I don't understand what you mean by this. If Stoplight is a real person, provide sources showing that. If it's a fictional person, provide those sources. If it's a real person who people make up fictional stories about, then make that clear -- and provide sources. Again, the point is that we are reporting on things, as they already exist, from a neutral point of view. We are not "adding to the legend." NawlinWiki 16:23, 8 June 2007 (UTC)



<> Precisely. He's a real person who really plays streetball who really had a mother named Serenity DeMichaels who really grew up in Round Rock who then moved to Austin etc. etc. etc. The more spectacular aspects are fictional, but much like a TV show, the "fans" (or, in this case, followers of streetball culture) are not the ones who invent the fiction. Thus, I would not be able to use Wikipedia to "add to the legend" any moreso than a fan of a TV show would be able to use Wikipedia to expand that TV show's universe. The fiction exists and is ongoing, but it is not fan-created. Either way, I have sufficient sources to document his notability. If there's a way I could get back the original article before it was deleted, I will edit the article to include documentation and clarify Stoplight's status. StreetballazCrunk 18:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk



As you requested, I've copied the text of the deleted article to your userspace at User:StreetballazCrunk/Stoplight (basketball). NawlinWiki 17:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Article for Deletion Debate
The result was delete. Wizardman 15:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Hoax. The talk page shows several attempts to verify this without success. I was unable to verify any of it myself. Hoax or not it fails WP:BIO since no reliable sources are given to establish notability. MartinDK 17:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete does make quite the enthralling story but it seems like a WP:HOAX to me. Plm 209 (talk • contribs) 17:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, agreed, it does seem like a hoax. Too bad actually. I'll give a shot at verifying it, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Most likely a hoax. Too bad. --HAL2008 talk 17:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as a hoax. Acalamari 18:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. Obviously a joke. Indef block the creator. --- RockMFR 18:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedier delete. Hoax, though a bit elaborate. Also move for block of author. Realkyhick 18:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Nonsense Corpx 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete Hoax, nonsense, and doesn't cite any references. — Wen li  (contribs) 20:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Unsure In the original discussion I had with NawlinWiki regarding the page, we had a lot of discussion about the context of the content of the article. As I was pointing out to him, Stoplight (and various other streetballers) are much like professional wrestlers. That is, they are real people about whom fictional stories are told. In Wikipedia articles regarding professional wrestlers, their stories are told from a primarily in-universe viewpoint, and so I followed that model when writing the article. I can go to greater lengths to emphasize the fictional nature of Stoplight's "accomplishments" because it seems the disclaimer at the beginning of the article was not sufficient. ("...the details regarding his accomplishments have largely been embellished... Even his supposed death was greatly exaggerated and most likely staged..." ) Of course, then there is the issue of notability. Which, short of scanning pages out of the various Austin, TX streetball magazines available, I don't really know how to prove the source's reliability. StreetballazCrunk 12:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk
 * Comment if articles on wrestlers are written from an in-universe perspective, that is the fault of those articles and not a model to be followed. Writing about fiction is the relevant guideline, which should be followed in all articles of this kind. JulesH 14:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment See Kayfabe. That is the closest explanation I can find. You can't deem Stoplight a hoax or nonsense by virtue of his accomplishments simply because the entire idea is that they have been staged, worked, or somehow otherwise choreographed. Thus, I think the entire premise of this AfD debate is faulty to begin with. I will certainly volunteer to rewrite this article in order to better fit the Wikipedia standard, but to delete it completely is showing ignorance and intolerance of other, less mainstream cultures. StreetballazCrunk 11:44, 28 June 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 16:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion with Admin Wizardman
I believe the article for Stoplight is legitimate and deserves a place in Wikipedia. The AfD debate was flawed to begin with, basing it on a premise that shouldn't apply to the article. I quote this passage of specific importance: "See Kayfabe. That is the closest explanation I can find. You can't deem Stoplight a hoax or nonsense by virtue of his accomplishments simply because the entire idea is that they have been staged, worked, or somehow otherwise choreographed. Thus, I think the entire premise of this AfD debate is faulty to begin with. I will certainly volunteer to rewrite this article in order to better fit the Wikipedia standard, but to delete it completely is showing ignorance and intolerance of other, less mainstream cultures."

Unfortunately, my defense came far after the swift hammer of Wikipedia mob justice came crashing down. It seems that nobody paid any attention to my argument regarding the legitimacy of the Stoplight article. While I appreciate the efforts to keep Wikipedia clean, at the same time, we shouldn't be so blinded by our pursuit that we ignore valuable articles just because they don't conform with our narrow vision of world culture.

As for Stoplight not being notable, how exactly do I go about proving this? I had this discussion once before with another admin. I provided sufficient sources, and yet people are still crying foul simply because they don't like the premise of the article. What more am I supposed to do? Scan the pages of the articles and upload them? Because I certainly can do that.

Please get back to me so we can discuss what steps need to be taken to see Stoplight return to Wikipedia. StreetballazCrunk 22:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk


 * Well, that's the thing. It didn't fail based on notability, it failed based on WP:Hoax. Here's the relevant section:


 * Delete does make quite the enthralling story but it seems like a WP:HOAX to me. Plm 209 <font color="lime" face="arial bold">(talk • contribs) 17:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, agreed, it does seem like a hoax. Too bad actually. I'll give a shot at verifying it, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. Most likely a hoax. Too bad. --HAL2008 talk 17:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as a hoax. Acalamari 18:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. Obviously a joke. Indef block the creator. --- RockMFR 18:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedier delete. Hoax, though a bit elaborate. Also move for block of author. Realkyhick 18:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Nonsense Corpx 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong delete Hoax, nonsense, and doesn't cite any references. — <font color="#009900">Wen <font color="#992222">li  (contribs) 20:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)</Blockquote>


 * So I'm not really 100% sure what I'm supposed to do at this point. It wasn't deleted by virtue of not being notable, it was deleted because everyone thought it was a hoax, despite my defense explaining why all of his "accomplishments" seemed outlandish. Again, I think the biggest problem is that the entire premise of the AfD was flawed, because it forced everyone to look at it from a hoax/not hoax standpoint.StreetballazCrunk 22:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk

<HR>

If you really think it's notable, then you have to cite reliable sources. Like if a newspaper wrote something on him, or a reliable website. Sources need to be cited especially if the article has hard to believe sections in it. Wizardman 22:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see you actually had sources. I'm not sure what else to tell you. If it fails based on lack of notability, then there's not much you can do. Wizardman  22:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

<HR> Can I have the text of the deleted article uploaded to my UserSpace so that I can edit it to make it even clearer that Stoplight is a real person who is involved in choreographed or "worked" stunts and events pertaining to the Streetball scene in Austin and beyond?

Discussion with Admin Rebecca
Please explain why the article was deleted without so much as a discussion or, from the looks of it, a second glance? I was given permission to recreate the page so long as it fit within the manual of style for Wikipedia. I don't understand how this article does not fall within the acceptable criteria for Wikipedia. I have used verifiable, reliable sources to establish notability, and I have made numerous edits to it in order to make sure the line between fiction and reality is well established.

I understand that not many people know about the culture of streetball. But, when you delete completely acceptable articles about their major figures without so much as a second thought, it keeps it underground and away from the public eye. Wikipedia is not just a resource for the majority classes. Just because streetball culture may be obscure and appreciated by a small minority does not mean it should be discriminated against. StreetballazCrunk 15:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk <HR>

It's fairly simple - if you want the article on Wikipedia, make sure any dubious claims are referenced to reliable sources, and cut the nonsense out of the article so we can tell the difference. There are no "semi-fictional" articles on Wikipedia. Rebecca 01:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

<HR>

Ugh. I think I've been through this same discussion three times before. Each time, we make a little headway, but then the discussion has to take place with another admin. Not your fault, it's just the problem with the nature of Wikipedia. I will, again, make the analogy to professional wrestling and kayfabe. Stoplight is a real person, who has actually performed the actions stated in the article. Many of the actions, however, were staged, choreographed, or otherwise "worked". However, the streetball community at large refers to these actions as if they were not previously choreographed, hence the reference to kayfabe. The issue here is that Stoplight's notability relies primarily in these choreographed or "worked" events. To excise them would be to remove the entire reason for Stoplight's presence on Wikipedia. However, these events are not "made up" or "nonsense". They actually occurred. The fact that they were staged in advance does not decrease their notability. If this were the case, the entire sport of professional wrestling would have no place on Wikipedia. But, as I have said multiple times, I am more than willing to rewrite the article to conform to Wikipedia's standards. If you would be willing to repost the deleted article to my Userspace, I can go ahead and rewrite it. Also, and tips ahead of time so that I don't have to go through this process again would be greatly appreciated. Stoplight fits all the criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia, it's just a matter of presenting the article itself in such a way that it makes this fact clear. StreetballazCrunk 18:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)StreetballazCrunk