User:UlsterWatch/KoU

Ok, after some thought I've decided to cut down what I was originally going to provide for this discussion so I can avoid instances of WP:TLDR, yet it may still be quite long.

Opening statement
Firstly though to put it simply, if you ignore all the copy-edit, irrelevant information, contradicting information, manual of style issues, the vast amount of inaccuracies, and the misused sources within this article, the main reasons why it should be redirected to Ulaid are simple:
 * 1) Article titles states "article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject.", and in this instance that is as "Ulaid" not the "kingdom of Ulidia".
 * 2) Mergism, which will be expanded upon after I deal with the main reason.

In the RfC, of the two editors to give a view point (ignoring the dubious one edit IP), Brianann MacAmhlaidh, who has knowledge in the area of medieval Ireland, agreed with me flat out. After initial confusion over the issue and admitting they knew little, the other editor Caeciliusinhorto came to this conclusion after I provided evidence and they took the extra effort of seeking out sources for themselves to make up their own mind. Their conclusion backs up my view on the matter that "Ulaid" is the common name not "Ulidia".

Albiet has made quite a few—sometimes conflicting—arguments as to how Ulaid and Ulidia are not the same and must be treated differently. Yes I agree that Ulaid is the name a population-group however it is a population-group that is based on medieval literature. It is however the name of a territory. Both are heavily interrelated and can be easily dealt with in one article, which Albiet objects too.

The short version
A simple look at the following sources makes it abundantly clear that Ulaid is the academically used name for the kingdom as well as the population-group. Just to note Albiet has several times noted the unquestionable authority of F.J. Byrne in regards to Irish history.


 * Page 17 of A New History of Ireland, II Medieval Ireland 1169-1534, a chapter written by F. J. Byrne. Also check out the footnote.
 * These scans from Duffy, Seán (2014). Brian Boru and the Battle of Clontarf. Gill & Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-7171-6207-9.: and
 * This scan from Connolly, S.J. (2007). Oxford Companion to Irish History. Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-923483-7. Also read the Earldom of Ulster part.
 * A collection of maps from Duffy, Seán (2005). The Concise History of Ireland. Gill & Macmillan. ISBN 0-7171-3810-0. and make sure you take a close look at the legends as well: 5th-8th century Ireland, 10th-early 11th century Ireland, and circa 1100AD Ireland.
 * This map by F.J. Byrne from his "Irish Kings and High-Kings" book, reprinted in Duffy, Seán (2014). Brian Boru and the Battle of Clontarf. Gill & Macmillan. ISBN 978-0-7171-6207-9.
 * Page 493 of ''Duffy, Seán; Medieval Ireland An Encyclopedia, 2005. ISBN 0-415-94052-4.
 * These results for Ulaid from ''Kings, Chronologies, and Genealogies: Studies in the Political History of Early Medieval Ireland and Wales.
 * Page 184 of The Early Cultures of North-West Europe.
 * This scan helps shed light on the relationship between the names of territories and peoples.

Terminology
For your own benefit Oshwah, as well as for that of anyone else, it would be pertinent to explain the terminology used in sources as there is quite a few that all mean the same thing but to people with little knowledge in the topic area would look like entirely different entities. To try to help avoid as much confusion as possible, I will use the term over-kingdom in regards to Ulaid. Like many historians I will use Ulster to refer to the modern province, a common practice that helps readers locate places mentioned, for example: Ulaid is in east Ulster; Ailech in west Ulster; and Airgialla in central Ulster.
 * Ulaid is a plural, whereas Ulad is the singular. Both come from Old Irish.
 * Ulaidh is a plural, whereas Uladh is the singular. Both are the modern Irish forms of Ulaid and Ulad.
 * Ulster is the name of a province on the island of Ireland. It is an English name that derives from Ulaid plus either the Norse ending "ster", which literally means "place of the Ulaid", or the Norse genitive s followed by the Irish tir, which literally means "land/territory of the Ulaid". Ulaidh is the modern Irish name for Ulster, though Uladh is also used.
 * Cúige is a modern Irish word that means province and derives from cóiced. Hence the modern Irish name Cúige Uladh which means "province of the Ulaid".
 * Cóiced is the Old Irish word that means province. It also means "fifth", in which according to Irish legend the island of Ireland was divided into five provinces, of which Ulaid was one. Hence a province will commonly be called a "fifth" as well.
 * Ultonia and Ulidia are the Latin forms of Ulaid.
 * Over-kingdom and province are English synonyms for the Irish cúige/cóiced.

Overview of Irish land division

 * The smallest unit of territory was a tuath (commonly referred to in English as a district). A territory that contained multiple tuath was called a tuatha, which equate to a petty-kingdom. A territory that contained several tuatha formed an over-kingdom, also commonly called a cóiced.
 * Whilst the modern-day Ireland province of Ulster spans the north of the island, in the medieval era it consisted of three separate over-kingdoms: Ulaid, Airgíalla, and Ailech.
 * The over-kingdom of Ulaid consisted of several tuatha, the most notable of which where: Dál nAraidi, Dál Fiatach and Uí Echach Cobo. Minor tuatha included Conaille Muirtheimne and Dál Riata. To give the example of a division of a tuatha: Dál Fiatach contained amongst others at different times the tuath of Uí Blathmaic, Uí Echacha Arda (also known as Uí Echacha Ulad and Aird Ulad), Leath Cathail, Dál mBuinne, and Clan Dermod.


 * An over-kingdom was ruled by the most powerful dynastic group from amongst the tuatha, and this was achieved either through dynastic agreement or usurpation. This title was ri Ulad meaning "king of Ulaid", though "king of the Ulaid" is also commonly used. For the last century or so of Ulaid's existence before the Norman invasion, the most powerful dynastic group amongst the Ulaid was the Mac Duinn Sléibe sept of the Dál Fiatach tuatha.

Naming of land divisions
Albiet argues that Ulaid refers to only a nation of people and not to a territorial unit, and such must be detailed on separate articles. This is inherently wrong:

The names of many Irish territorial divisions such as tuath, tuatha, cóiced, and indeed other units of land such as trícha cét, baile biataigh, and baile bó, derive from the names of people, families or population groupings. Over time they became the name of geographical areas regardless of the lineage of the ruling dynasty or the population living there.

The main example for the point of this discussion is Ulaid, which was the name of a population-grouping but also a province. Other notable examples include Osraige and Dartraighe. Those two articles deal with both the population-grouping and the territory. The modern and medieval province of Connacht gets its names from the Connachta, the "descendants of Conn". Another example is the modern province of Leinster, which like Ulster derives its name from a province plus a suffix, this province was known as Laigin. The Laigin is also the name of a population-grouping.

At a tuatha and tuath level, the petty-kingdoms of Ulaid are likewise commonly named after population-groupings or an apical ancestor: Dál nAraidi - Aradia's portion; Dál Fiatach - Fiatach's portion; Uí Echach Cobo - descendants of Echu of Cobo; Conaille Muirtheimne - descendants of Conall (the origin of Muirtheimne is disputed); Dál Riata - portion of Riada; Uí Blathmaic - descendants of Blathmac; Uí Echacha Arda - the descendants of Echu of Ards; Leath Cathail - Cathal's half; Dál mBuinne - Buinne's portion.

There is very little historical information on these actual population-groupings, and certainly not enough to merit a separate article for each and every one. The same for Ulaid. Thus historians focus on the kingdoms, their rulers, and events that happened to them. The origins of the people of these medieval kingdoms are shrouded in mystery and the only sources are the surviving Irish legends and fabricated pedigrees and histories made by medieval and middle-ages pseudo-historians. Culturally, all these population groups as far as academia is concerned spoke Irish and had the same culture. These are detailed elsewhere on Wikipedia Irish language, Old Irish, Culture of Ireland, Christianity in Ireland, Irish mythology, Early Irish literature etc. etc. There is certainly not enough to merit a whole article to them.

No-one is disagreeing that the Ulaid were a population-grouping, but as shown their name came to represent a province, and that province has a right to the namespace of Ulaid per Article titles, and as there is far more historical information on the province as opposed to the population-grouping, which is based on legends, the Ulaid article can easily fit in the information on both, and at present does (I have expanded it a bit since this issue first arose to take into account Albiet's concerns).

Specifics in regards to Albiet's arguments

 * 1) There is no discernible distinction between Ulaid and Ulidia. Ulidia is an attested Latinised name for Ulaid.
 * 2) Albiet states that Ulaid isn't the name of a territory but rather refers to a nation of people.
 * 3) According to Albiet as the Ulaid article states (the same statement is found at Laigin), then it definitely can't. This statement is attributed to Byrne and it says "indicating", referring to its origin, however it doesn't state anywhere that it doesn't and didn't come to apply to a geographic term as well.
 * 4) Albiet places a large amount of faith in Byrne's suppossed undisputed authority and in Byrne clearly states "...we turn to Ulster proper (Ulaid, latinised as Ulidia and Ultonia) and that Ulaid is also referred to at times as In Cóiced, meaning "the province", which also means a "fifth", and Irish legends claim that Ireland was divided into five fifths, one of which was called Ulaid. The use of In Cóiced is important as the kingdom of Ulidia Albiet is on about appears to be the territory that is called Dál Fiatach, which was not a province/over-kingdom, but a tribe/minor-kingdom that was part of the province of Ulaid. And if Ulaid was simply a ethnonym and only applied to a people then how can it be called In Cóiced, which refers to a territorial division? The same for the term Ulster which has never meant anything other than a territorial unit.
 * 5) Albiet argues that there is a distinction between the medieval kingdom of Ulidia, or the "lesser Ulster", and the ancient province of legend, yet Byrne expliclty makes it clear in the footnote of that there is no distinction between the two. The only time modern sources would make mention of a greater/larger or lesser/reduced Ulster is when comparing the territorial size of the medieval and the legendary extents of Ulaid.
 * 6) Albiet argues that mixing an article on a people and a kingdom is wrong and that they should be kept separate, however what about Osraige and Dartraighe, which like Ulaid are the names of a people and a kingdom? Those articles make mention of both.