User:Underbar dk/Slaying the Surnamed Beast

Disambiguating Chinese surnames:

Layers of disambiguation, only go to the next layer if needed:

0. If no disambigation needed, title the article as is.
 * eg. Gongsun, Zhuge

1. If the pinyin romanization of the surname clashes with a non-surname topic, disambiguate with "(surname)"
 * eg. Yuchi (surname)

2. If the pinyin romanization of the surname

Summary of the dilemma
Let's try to kill this surname beast once and for all. Since the notability of topics is established by potential reliable sources and not the current article state. We are going to end up with many Chinese surname articles and run into this issue again sooner or later. Why not deal with the issue now so we can get back to editing? If this issue is not solved satisfactorily, we will actually be hindering potential editors from contributing in this topic. So please, forgive me for writing all this:

We have several articles about different surnames that are transcribed the same way in Hanyu Pinyin, the official method to transcribe Chinese into Latin characters. The purpose of this reading supplement is to make sure that all interested parties are aware of the complexities of the issue, and to facilitate discussion without having everyone repeat things they've said ad infinitum. The present discussion concerns the surnames that are "Li" in pinyin, but the results of this discussion can easily affect how we handle all Chinese surname articles, both existing ones and future ones. Please keep the big picture in mind.

The Lis in question:

This is not all of the surnames that can be written as "Li" in English, merely those that are on Wikipedia at the moment.

1. Disambiguation by tone

 * Pros
 * Helpful as a pronunciation guide
 * Cons
 * Diacritics are not English, no established use in English documents even in China
 * Insufficient disambiguation by itself as there may be several surnames with the same romanization and tone (see example).
 * Merging all surnames by tone is illogical in Chinese and unhelpful in English due to the presence of the diacritic


 * Efforts needed if selected as primary disambiguation method:
 * Combine with another disambiguation method


 * Example
 * Lí (surname) (2nd tone) for 黎
 * Lǐ (surname) (3rd tone) for 李, 理
 * Lì (surname) (4th tone) for 厲, 栗, 利, 酈, 莉

2. Disambiguation by Hundred Family Surnames
The Hundred Family Surname (here abbreviated as HFS) is a document from the Song Dynasty (960-1279) that attempts to compile all the notable surnames of that time. Apart from the first few lines, the author was chiefly concerned with arranging the surnames in rhyming couplets, and thus the ranking is not significant. The HFS is well-known in the Chinese-speaking world, even though the exact ranks of the surnames are not common knowledge.


 * Pros
 * One-to-one relation for most notable surnames (504 of them)
 * Partial precedent for ranking Chinese characters on English Wikipedia is found in the treatment of Kangxi radicals, eg. Radical 1, Radical 15, etc.
 * Cons
 * Does not include all notable surnames, especially non-Han surnames after the Song dynasty. eg. Kuang (surname) is not included
 * Ranks are obscure to everyone except Chinese surname specialists


 * Efforts needed if selected as primary disambiguation method:
 * Put numbers in the Hundred Family Surnames article to ease navigation
 * Decide on alternate disambiguation for surnames not represented in the HFS


 * Example
 * Li (4th surname in the Hundred Family Surnames) for 李
 * Li (247th surname in the Hundred Family Surnames) for 厲
 * Li (249th surname in the Hundred Family Surnames) for 栗
 * Li (262nd surname in the Hundred Family Surnames) for 黎
 * Li (303rd surname in the Hundred Family Surnames) for 酈
 * Li (364th surname in the Hundred Family Surnames) for 利
 * Surnames 理 and 莉 will need alternative disambiguation methods

Variations on the disambiguation wording, such as Li (surname No. 4) for 李, can be considered

3. Disambiguation by character meaning
Translate the surnames' characters into English by their most common meaning.


 * Pros
 * Reasonably accessible to English and Chinese readers alike
 * Cons
 * Surnames are just surnames, they rarely mean anything in the context of names.
 * Some surnames may have modern meaning that are offensive outside the context of names. (eg. Jī (surname) 姬, meaning "concubine")
 * Some surnames are named after places, resulting in article names that are essentially tautologies (eg. 秦 would become Qin (surname named after the state of Qin)). The etymologies of such names may be too obscure, obsolete, or even unknown - making them unsuitable and impractical to be used as disambiguation.
 * Other translation issues stemming from original research in addition to the above.


 * Efforts needed if selected as primary disambiguation method:
 * Epic translator battles for every surname that needs disambiguation


 * Example
 * Li (surname meaning "plum") for 李
 * Li (surname meaning "whetstone") for 厲
 * Li (surname meaning "chestnut") for 栗
 * Li (surname meaning "dark") for 黎
 * Li (surname meaning "profit") for 利
 * Li (surname meaning "reason") for 理
 * Li (surname meaning "jasmine") for 莉
 * Surname 酈 cannot fit into this pattern as its original meaning is unknown.

4. Disambiguation by Chinese character
As the topic of the surname articles are essentially the characters themselves, it makes sense to use the characters themselves as disambiguation.


 * Pros
 * Exact one-to-one relation
 * De facto use since 2006, with Jimbo Wales's implicit approval
 * Cons
 * Violates English Wikipedia policy, guidelines, and manual of style.
 * Inaccessible to English Wikipedia's primary audience
 * Some Chinese characters are blacklisted as article titles
 * Further confusion in regards to traditional Chinese vs simplified Chinese


 * Efforts needed if selected as primary disambiguation method:
 * Invoke WP:IAR, brace for impact
 * Request admin assistance in moving pages to blacklisted titles, impact inevitable


 * Example
 * Li (李)
 * Li (厲)
 * Li (栗)
 * Li (黎)
 * Li (利)
 * Li (理)
 * Li (莉)
 * Li (酈)

5. No disambiguation

 * Pros
 * Simplest solution


 * Cons
 * article size issues arise from a page containing all surnames of the same romanization
 * One article containing separate topics, violating Disambiguation guideline.
 * interwiki unworkable
 * ignores different romanizations leading to the same Chinese surname


 * Efforts needed if selected as primary disambiguation method:
 * Merge everything and hope the issue never comes back


 * Example
 * Li (surname)

6. Other solutions
The above options are by no means the only options we have. Please bring up any alternative ideas for discussion if you think they are suitable.

Discuss
As the optimal solution will probably be a combination of the above instead of just one. It is better for people to rank their preferences of the above options and specify which ones you would rule out when discussing. This would make your position clear and we'd get a better sense on who's standing where. _dk (talk) 17:49, 3 July 2013 (UTC)