User:Urashimataro/Uramse Pages/Archive01

Shrine architecture
Hi Urashimataro! I just noticed User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu and was wondering if you are planning to work on articles about Shinto architecture. Since I am collecting info here for the lead section of List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines) (and possibly for Shinto architecture as well), maybe we could join forces somehow. I am still learning, but got quite interested in the subject. bamse (talk) 23:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Bamse. How an earth did you notice User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu? I am indeed planning to write a section about architecture for the Shinto shrine article, which I (almost entirely) wrote and maintain, and rewrite the Shinto architecture article, which is pitiful now.

Having worked a bit with you in the past, I think collaborating would be a fine idea. Have you got any precise idea about what you want to do? I am going to start writing the articles next week. Feel free to steal, ask and add to my user pages. BTW, I have access to material in Japanese you may be interested about architecture and about the 12 Heavenly Warriors :-). I was planning to use it myself sometime. If need be, I can copy and send you material via email. By the way, I don't know much about Shinto, just what I learned writing these few articles. But I am also willing to learn. Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:54, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * When looking for sources, google send me to your userpage... At the moment I am preparing the lead section for the shrine list. It will be likely a historic introduction: ancient times (shrines in the shape of dwellings/storehouses) -> early Buddhist influences (new roof styles, paint, ornaments,...) -> addition of Ai-no-ma in Momoyama period -> combination of temple, shrine, mausoleum in Edo period (Tosho-gu). This intro could be useful as a starting point for Shinto architecture (which should eventually be more comprehensive) or the architecture section in Shinto shrine. Have a look here which will be updated regularly. There are also some references on that page. When done with the lead section, I'd be interested to write articles about some of the zukuri (nagare-zukuri, hachiman-zukuri,... no preference), or I could help you with Shinto architecture if you wish. Thanks for the offer to send material about architecture. (My Japanese is unfortunately rather limited, so I'd prefer English (German, Dutch) or Japanese sources in computer readable form.) As for the lead section, I think I have enough references. For more detailed articles, I might come back to your offer. bamse (talk) 10:11, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Please let me know if you have any suggestions for List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines). I wonder if it is possible to find the size for all of these buildings in meters (not bays/ken). What do you think? For the major shrines I have a source, but not for the less well known. Another question: by what property shall I order the "Remarks" column? Lastly if you have any pictures to upload for structures which don't have a picture yet, that would be great. There should be lots of pictures floating around of Tōshō-gū (but could not find Honden/Haiden without the fence...), Shimogamo and Kamigamo shrines (photography not allowed (?) close to the honden). Happy editing. bamse (talk) 10:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I completed the first version of the lead section and am looking for comments/suggestions. I am somewhat unsure about the timing of the early events. Do you know if there are commonly accepted dates for: (i) nature worship, (ii) fences/gates around sacred spots and portable shrines (iii) earliest permanent shrines (Ise and Izumo?) ? bamse (talk) 20:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Shrine architecture II
Hi, Bamse. Just a few notes. More later, after I finish work. Checked both files, made minor changes and left some comments. leave me your feedback.

About sources in German: do you know this? Bernhard is a world authority on Japan. I read German but, living in Japan, I don't use it at all, so my capability to speak it is limited.
 * Bernhard Scheid: ''Religion in Japan.

The new material you have written is useful and interesting, and complements nicely what I was planning to write about the various tsukuri (what you have seen). I will probably steal it for my own use :-). I wonder in fact if what such a long intro is really necessary in an article about shrines that are National Treasuries. A much shorter one with links to Shinto shrine and other relevant articles would be more than enough. In other words, the material in my opinion is better placed as an intro to the article about Shinto architecture, before details of the various tsukuri.

About sizes in meters, I will see in my books and at the public library, next time I go. Usually everyone uses bays, and bays vary in length.

by what property shall I order the "Remarks" column? I think the content of the remarks column is too heterogeneous to allow any sensible ordering.

About the pictures, I can take them here in Kamakura, Yokohama and Tokyo if needed.

About the last few questions: I doubt if there is a firm date about nature worship: it is usually supposed to have already existed in the Yayoi period. Same for the second question. Almost certainly fences/gates around sacred spots are almost as old as nature worship. No precise dates can possibly be available.

I can't answer now the last two questions, I will read a book in Japanese I have about religious architecture in Japan and will let you know.

BTW, the perseverance and patience you show in your work are midboggling. Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:57, 13 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks, also for the link to Bernhard (which I did not know). Feel free to steal. I agree with your comment about the length, however I am planning to nominate the list at WP:FLC and the lead sections of featured lists seem to be rather descriptive... The present lead section in the article is going to be replaced (so no need to edit it) by the new one from my user page. If bay is the accepted standard of measurement, I guess it is ok to stay with bay (and maybe add a note in the "Usage" section what a bay is). BTW, what is best to use: "ken" or "ma" or "bay"? I'll leave the remarks column unsortable. As for pictures, unfortunately there are no shrine National Treasures in Tokyo, Yokohama or Kamakura. If you have pictures for non-shrine National Treasures to upload that would be great of course. Thanks for adding "Yayoi period". It is precise enough.bamse (talk) 09:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just a thought: all of the zukuri would profit from illustrations in addition to pictures. I am not good at drawing, are you? Shall we ask the graphics lab and/or the wikiproject architecture for help? Or shall we wait until there is an article (which might motivate potential graphists more)? bamse (talk) 16:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I just noticed the two comments you added to the lead section (thanks). As for the first: 祓殿 (purification hall) is written as "haraiden" here and as "haraidono" at JAANUS. Not sure which (if any) is correct. I have rewritten the incorrect sentence ("Later, in the Edo period, shrines were joined with temples and mausoleums in complexes called byō or jingū-ji. Tōshō-gū is an example of this style.") to read: "The Edo period Tōshō-gū is a complex assembly of richly adorned shrines, temples and a mausoleum. Such complexes are a result of syncretism of Buddhism and Shinto. They first appeared during the Heian period, Kitano Tenman-gū, built in 947 for the spirit of Sugawara no Michizane, being the first of these byō or jingū-ji." bamse (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Quick question: Do you know what "玉殿" are? There are 5基 of these at Sumiyoshi Shrine (住吉神社), Shimonoseki.bamse (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

bays and ken
Because the bays of temples and shrines are visibly different even within the same building and a ken can have several different values anyway, any measurement you get is bound to be inexact. The ken, also, was meant as a measure of proportion as well as a measure of size. I think therefore using measurements in ken is fine.

As a word, I would use ken. Ma is an equivalent, but has many other meanings, including, inconveniently, room, interval and space.

About bay, I think that if the reader has to learn a new word, it might as well be the real thing, and not a made up replacement in a foreign language.


 * Good point. So I stay with ken. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Photos and images
let's wait until there's an article. Then we can better see what's necessary and be more motivated. I use Photoshop mostly for photos, and my graphic skills are limited. I will take care of the "zukuri" part with schemes and maps, but you are better off asking someone who specializes in that kind of thing for the rest.
 * OK. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Haraidono
Both my dictionaries (the Kōjien and the Daijisen) give as a reading of those two characters haraedono. Here is the Kōjien's entry.

はらえ‐どの【祓殿】ハラヘ 神社で、祓を行う殿舎.

Since it's universally recognized as the best Japanese dictionary around (and the Daijisen agrees with it), I would use haraedono. If you need the data of the dictionary for referencing, they are on my user page.


 * I'll change for haraedono. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Edo period Jinguji
I don't know what that sentence means, so I am not in the position to judge if it is correct or not, but it sounds contradictory. You say the jinguji first appeared during the Edo period, but also during the heian period. that important point must e clarified.
 * I corrected my mistake, no more claim that jingu-ji appeared first during the Edo period. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Italics
Do not forget italics and macrons for Japanese terms. If you nominate the article for Featured status, someone will surely point out if they are missing.
 * I will go through the article and try to fix all italics and macrons.bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the help. I replied above.bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Gyōkuden
According to the Kōjien and the Daijisen, a palace adorned with precious stones or, figuratively, simply a beautiful palace. ぎょく‐でん【玉殿】 玉で飾った宮殿. 美しい宮殿.


 * kotobank gave me also "《稲荷神社の狐の像が宝の玉を持っているところから》狐のこと" as a meaning for 玉殿, which I don't quite understand. Do you? As it relates to Inari shrines it might be relevant. bamse (talk) 10:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
 * PS: The counter is 基 (according to rikaichan: counter for gravestones, stone lanterns,...). 5基 玉殿 is likely not a "beautiful palace" then.bamse (talk) 12:48, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Bamse, the term apparently also means fox and the sentence means "a fox (from the fact that foxes of an Inari Jinja carry a precious stone" (takara no tama. The two characters are similar but different). In this case the word is read, according to the Kōjien, tamadono. I am not sure this is what it means in our case. Let me chew on this for a while.

BTW, I strongly recommend you buy the Kōjien DVD at Amazon. Not only as a dictionary it's WAY better than Rikaichan and the WWWJDIC, it's also an excellent encyclopedia with a great reputation (and which I use all the time for Wikipedia work). It would be of great help to you.

It's also better than the Shogakukan, which is what Kotobank and Yahoo use. Yahoo also has a good encyclopedia.Urashima Tarō (talk) 03:02, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Gyokuden II
They are miniature shrines: see here, and therefore the term is read gyokuden.


 * Thanks, also for the dictionary/encyclopedia recommendation. I'll look into it. I also have the Casio XD-Gw9600 (currently out of order due to a flat battery), which I believe has the Daijisen included. How does the Daijisen compare to the Kōjien in your opinion?bamse (talk) 10:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Daijisen, Daijirin and Kōjien
Hi, Bamse. First of all let me say that, when I recommended the Kōjien, I was under the impression that you were using only Rikaichan, but now I know you are using Shogakukan's Daijisen at Kotobank.com.

My opinion is that, if you want to use only one dictionary and you work with traditional Japanese culture as we do, that dictionary should be the Kōjien. I have sometimes found a term in the Kōjien and not in the Daijisen, but the contrary never happened. It costs 7800 yen at Amazon and is worth the money. The Daijirin and Daijisen are available online together here (even though having your own copy on your hard disk is more convenient). If you bought it you would have all major Japanese dictionaries at your disposal.

The downside is that the Kōjien is harder to understand, wordy and even archaic in its definitions, probably because it's much older in origin. Take a look at the relevant articles. They are well written.

One last thing: have you read this? Urashima Tarō (talk) 01:03, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hachiman-zukuri

 * Thanks for letting me know your view on the dictionaries. I noticed that the shrine architecture article is taking shape on your userpage. Can I be of any help with it?
 * PS: In the hachiman-zukuri seciton, the identification of the two sub-structures with "honden/haiden" could be confusing. At least at the Usa Shrine, the whole building (both sub-buildings plus ai-no-ma) is referred to as honden. Each of the sub-buildings has a place for a deity, so it is quite different from the typical haiden. It is rather like two connected honden. Not sure how the situation in other hachiman-zukuri shrines is.
 * PPS: I started the Haiden (Shinto) article. So far it is a stub, but I am going to expand it a little.bamse (talk) 11:50, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

//////////////////////

Hi, Bamse. I thought it would be better to create a page for our correspondence and keep everything together.

Thanks for pointing out that problem. JAANUS and the Encyclopedia of Shinto do not agree on that, I hadn't noticed and had used only JAANUS. I will see what the Kōjien says, and decide. About helping, it's too early: I am still gathering the material I have. After I am finished, you will be welcome to intervene. You can of course intervene already as you see fit, but the material still isn't in its final form.

The haiden article is useful, even as a stub. We should add more stubs of important shrine parts like sessha and massha.

For the time being, I have written a heiden (Shinto) stub. Linking it to existent articles was a pain. As a German, you know how common the name Heiden is. Among hundreds of links, just a handful concerned Shinto. BTW, do you actually live in Germany? Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:10, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea to move everything here. As for hachiman-zukuri, even JAANUS says: "...shrine halls of this type are not open for use even to ordinary priests as both are occupied only by the deity, kami." Maybe it is just a question of names and JAANUS called it honden/haiden by comparison with ishinoma-zukuri. What does the Kōjien say? Maybe this or the sequel can shed some light on the hachiman-zukuri. Thanks for expanding "haiden" and "heiden" and all the links to them. It also made me realize an incorrect picture I had for the Isonokami Shrine in List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines). Apparently there are two haiden national treasures at that shrine. Interestingly one of them is listed in the temple category. PS: I live here and there. Presently I am in Poland, though I also spend a couple of months in Japan and Germany this year.

--- Here comes the Kojien: 神社本殿の一形式. 切妻造・平入の社殿を二つ前後に並べ、つないだもの. 宇佐八幡宮本殿の形式. A shrine structure with two interconnected shaden, one tsumairi style (door on the gable side) and one hirairi style (the opposite). The style used at Usa Shrine for the honden.

Too bad there are no photos, but I can copy an illustration from the Kōjien. I want to do a good job with this, something truly useful. I can't write today, but will tomorrow. Keep checking what I do. BTW, which are the articles you would like to have proofread? I am not a native speaker, but I can do something, little by little.

What do you think of this image? Is it good enough? I just traced an image with Illustrator. Unfortunately, I made a serious mistake which I immediately corrected, but now both previews show the error, and not the corrected version. I hope the problem will be fixed by the server.Urashima Tarō (talk) 03:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)


 * So the Kojien calls the whole structure (at Usa Shrine) honden (not honden + haiden). Strangely it does not mention the ai-no-ma. The tsumairi door appears to lead to the ai-no-ma in the pictures I saw. Not sure if this is generic for all hachiman-zukuri shrines though.
 * The picture you uploaded looks more than good. I don't know much about licensing, but is it ok to trace an image? The text which is presently in the picture should be removed and go to the image description and image caption (when used in an article) in my opinion. It would also be good to have a picture of the floor plan in addition to the views from the front and side. Something like here and here.bamse (talk) 10:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll keep checking what you write. Yesterday I was learning a bit about shoin-zukuri and sukiya-zukuri for the residences national treasure list. As for proofreading, there is the List of National Treasures of Japan (shrines), which you already had a look at I guess, and there is List of National Treasures of Japan (residences) which will soon get a new lead section. I'd be more interested in help with checking for factual errors and general suggestions for content/style improvement than language proofreading. bamse (talk) 10:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Residential architecture
Only if you have time and interest... I completed the draft for List of National Treasures of Japan (residences). Would be great if you could have a quick look at it and let me know of any mistakes I made. BTW, do you happen to know why the Katsura Imperial Villa is not a national treasure? Is it because it is part of the imperial household? I suppose the Ise Shrine is not a NT since it is being rebuilt, but the villa is reasonably old, isn't it? bamse (talk) 18:07, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

______

About the checking, will do, but I will need some time. The file has been drastically changed during the tracing. It's isn't recognizable as the same thing. I wouldn't have uploaded it otherwise. The original was almost identical to the drawing the Encyclopedia of Shinto has. Will modify as suggested.

About the Katsura, I know next to nothing about it. It probably burned down and was rebuilt, so it isn't an original. That's why Kamakura has no NT but one. I worked on the Architecture article. Hope to finish in a day or two. Urashima Tarō (talk) 07:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Take your time with the checking. No need to rush. As for the license, I only have some experience with maps. The agreement of the German wikipedia map lab (aka Kartenwerkstatt) is that it is ok to make maps based on several (two or more) copyrighted maps if the final map looks reasonably different (different font, icons,...) from the source maps. Maybe a similar reasoning holds here!? Will have a look at the architecture article now and investigate the Katsura.bamse (talk) 09:47, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * While collecting information for improving the National Treasures of Japan article, I found an answer to the question that I posed (Why Katsura is not a National Treasure?). On page 13, middle column of this book it says, that the Imperial Household Agency points out that their properties are sufficiently protected, so they don't need additional protection under the national treasure law. Another point mentioned in the same reference is that a nomination as national treasure would mean that they had to allow public access, thereby ceding certain rights. Indeed from the properties owned by the royal family only the Shōsōin is a national treasure. bamse (talk) 16:15, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

IMAGE
I had the image deleted. Better be safe than sorry, but now I have no photo to rely upon, and no image to trace of something which is hard to visualize and to draw freehand. What do you think? Urashima Tarō (talk) 23:22, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * How about putting a request at the graphic lab and/or the architecture wikiproject? If restricted to the main features (roof shape, dimensions in ken,..., no detailed ornamentation,...) it should not be difficult for a graphic artist to create something.bamse (talk) 23:46, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I may have something that will do the job. Drastically simplified, B/W picture, as you suggested. Would it be possible I show it to you sending it via email? I'd like to have your feedback. If this works, we can use again the technique in the future. You can reach me via email through my user page. Urashima Tarō (talk) 04:26, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Mail is on the way.bamse (talk) 09:06, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Checked file
Hi, Bamse. I checked both files and corrected minor points. Didn't find any serious mistake, but I am not an expert in this kind of thing. I also hesitate to change style points, because I am not a native. In any case, if you want I will check again later, when you will have written more. Urashima Tarō (talk) 08:09, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking. I copied the lead section to the article. PS: I was not going to write more about residences. Next might be User:Bamse/List_of_National_Treasures_(castles) but it is not there yet. bamse (talk) 11:22, 21 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Just created Moya (architecture) and Hisashi (architecture). From what I understand, these terms are mainly used in the context of temples but apparently also for shrines.bamse (talk) 17:28, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

______

Well done. That's something I wanted to do myself, one day. I will see if I can make an illustration for both (but I will be busy until Thursday, and I won't have much free time). There are no photos for moya and mokoshi (but I can go and take one soon at a Zen temple). BTW, you have plenty of material for the article Shoin, which is presently miserable. I was also thinking we could create a category for this stuff, perhaps Japanese religious architecture as a subcategory of Japanese art. Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:50, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

Mokoshi and Hisashi

 * Probably you meant hisashi. There are lots of pictures for mokoshi. Today I started to write the intro for the castle NT list here. When I am done with that, I'll have a look at the shoin article and maybe create a stub or two on an architectural topic. Not sure (but not against either) about a religious architecture category as many terms are not restricted to religious buildings. bamse (talk) 22:43, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Pretty picture in the Hachiman-zukuri section ;-) Thanks also for expanding hisashi (architecture). Could it be that "Open corridors or verandas under extended or additional roofs are also sometimes referred to as hisashi" (currently in the second meaning) is the same as the first meaning? bamse (talk) 08:47, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds to me like those corridors and verandas are hisashi in the second sense, but without a wall. I added that introduction after seeing that the Japanese article is dedicated ONLY to roof eaves and does not even mention temples or shrines. Take a look at the pics. The Kōjien and Daijisen both carry both definitions. My Japanese wife says that the first thing she thinks of when hearing the word is the eaves of a home roof. I thought that introduction may avoid confusion. What do you think?


 * On a different note, I have been reading (while taking a rest from work) about mokoshi and I am not sure I know what they are. No definition is clear, and some contradict each other. Urashima Tarō (talk) 13:05, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * OK. Agreed after reading more carefully what you wrote. (I thought the first definition meant the area underneath the eaves.) I only know mokoshi as a pent roof which goes all around a building sometimes giving the impression of an extra level from the outside which is not present inside. What other definition did you read?bamse (talk) 16:26, 23 November 2009 (UTC)


 * JAANUS's definition was confusing and confused. I finally found a clear one in my Iwanami Nihonshi Jiten.

裳階【もこし】 仏堂や塔などの軒下壁面から延びた差し掛け. 裳階があると外観が二重屋根となり際だつが,内部は柱が上まで通り,二階構造ではない.

It confirms what you say.


 * Good picture you made of moya, hisashi and mokoshi! Much easier to understand than any text. I'll likely not be very active on wikipedia for one week but will try to answer questions/comments on talk pages. bamse (talk) 22:04, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

OK. Take care, and TTU soon.Urashima Tarō (talk) 23:03, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Mokoshi
Hi, Bamse. I more or less finished Mokoshi and wouldn't mind if you checked it when you have time. Also, if you notice some omission, please add to it. Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:31, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Very good and informative article. I only specified that the national treasure pagoda at Yakushi-ji is the "east pagoda". There is also a "west pagoda" just a couple of meters from the east pagoda. The west pagoda is in the same style with 3 mokoshi but much younger than the east pagoda. Maybe it could be stated that the mokoshi can use the same or different (example Hōryū-ji's kon-dō) roofing material as the main roof. Other than this I have nothing to add at the moment. In my opinion it is not a stub anymore and should be upgraded to "start-class". PS: I wonder if mokoshi on upper stories always cover railed verandas. bamse (talk) 11:36, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Architecture feedback
Also had a look at User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu. Some suggestions: bamse (talk) 12:22, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) in hiyoshi-zukuri: mention the strange roof shape at the back (see File:Hiyoshi-taisha nishihongu2.jpg)
 * 2) in irimoya-zukuri: wikilink to irimoya, picture of Kitano tenman-gū possibly shows the haiden, not honden (which is directly behind the haiden)
 * 3) in sumiyoshi-zukuri: it is 4x2 (not 4x1) ?!
 * 4) examples for owari and misedana-zukuri

One more thing I am not very sure of is if Ishi-no-ma-zukuri (gongen-zukuri) really fit into this list or should be treated separately. bamse (talk) 12:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Bamse, and thanks for the checks. I hadn't asked you to check Hayashi Eitetsu because the article isn't finished. I am now going to add the info I find in other sources.


 * 1) Will add that sentence about mokoshi (or you can add it yourself, and get the credit due to you).
 * It is fine with me if you add it.
 * 1) About the verandas, I don't know if they are always present. I suspect not, but have no evidence. I know that at Yakushi-ji they are there.
 * 2) About sumiyoshi-zukuri: found those sizes in the reference, and thought them very odd. Will fix.

(talk) 23:05, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Hm, just saw File:Sumiyoshi shrine Honden.jpg. From the front (entrance side) it appears like 1 ken wide, but from the back like 2 ken...
 * 1) examples for owari and misedana-zukuri: Will see if I can find any.Urashima Tarō
 * 2) Why do you think Gongen-zukuri should be treated separately? This is a genuine question. Because it's particularly important? I don't know enough on the subject to have an opinion myself. It should be in any case at least mentioned here, I think.
 * When generating the shrine nt list, the parts of ishi-no-ma-zukuri (honden, haiden, ishi-no-ma) were often specified in references as irimoya-zukuri, kirizuma-zukuri and so on. Therefore one could view an ishi-no-ma-zukuri structure as a combination of other styles (irimoya and kirizuma for instance) and not as a genuine style like nagare-zukuri. It's probably just a matter of opinion if ishi-no-ma-zukuri should be treated separately. PS: I don't know more about the subject than I wrote here.