User:Urashimataro/Uramse Pages/Archive02

Hachiman-zukuri
I think the situation is a follows. All other styles, with the exception of owari-zukuri, involve just one building, but hachiman-zukuri consists in a very typical layout, and therefore the same thing can be of one style and still be part of a hachiman-zukuri complex. Since all sources I have, five in all, include it, I will too, perhaps with an explanation. Today I finally finished the big job I was working at and sshould be able to work more.

About Sumiyoshi, Jinja, you are right, it does have 1 ken on one side and two on the other.

I hope you don't mind this daily to-and-fro of messages. Let me know if you do, and I will cut it out. Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:25, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Good plan to include it with an explanation. Daily messages are perfectly fine with me. bamse (talk) 08:22, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Article
Hi. I decided to stop adding stuff. The page is ballooning, and I think it is best to clean it up, give it a final form and put it on line. then I can add to it when there is a need. Take a look and tell me what you think should be added. Be blunt. the photo I chose for Sumiyoshi style isn't perhaps perfect, but I think it's good enough.

I took a look at your shrine NT article and there's lots of good stuff in it. I opted however NOT to copy, but rather write from scratch for honesty. Tomorrow I will start finishing the article up. Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:08, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

I fixed the National Treasure list in Shinto shrine. Please revert if I did something stupid. Actually I am not sure it is necessary to have such a long (complete) list in the Shinto shrine article. I also had a look over at User:Urashimataro/Hayashi Eitetsu which looks very good and is definitely ready to be released. Just a couple of comments/questions/suggestions: Actually turned out to be quite some comments, but nothing serious. Good job! bamse (talk) 11:55, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) "The roof is always gabled, but the nagare-zukuri and the kasuga-zukuri types also have a hisashi'": the statement about the gabled roof is true for the honden only, correct? It is not clear how having gables is connected to having (or not having) a hisashi.
 * 2) "Ryōnagare-zukuri" is listed under "Most common shrine styles". Is it the third most common style?
 * 3) In "At Ōmiwa Shrine, which, as we have seen, has no honden...", I'd remove the phrase "as we have seen". Not sure what it is supposed to refer to anyway.
 * 4) In hachiman-zukuri: "This recent style..." Is there a date/period to make this statement more precise?
 * 5) What is the star at the section heading "Irimoya/Sumiyoshi/Taisha-zukuri"?
 * 6) "Irimoya-zukuri (入母屋造?) is a building..." -> "Irimoya-zukuri (入母屋造?) is a style..."?
 * 7) same section: "...a gabled roof with one or two hips..." shouldn't it be the other way around: "...a hipped roof with one or two gables..."?
 * 8) same section: I don't really like the picture. Sure enough the roof is irimoya-style, but the main gable above the entrance (behind the Chinese karahafu gable) is not the typical irimoya-style gable as far as I know. It is rather the gables on the left and right, which are hardly visible in the picture. How about something like File:Kamomioya-jinja hashidono.jpg, which has a simple irimoya-zukuri roof (without additional gables). There are probably also some pictures of honden with irimoya roofs on commons.
 * 9) "If the ai-no-ma is paved with stones it is called ai-no-ma,...". Shouldn't it be called ishi-no-ma in this case?
 * 10) "This layout and that of Hachiman-zukuri..." not clear what "This" refers to. It should refer to "ishi-no-ma-zukuri" I suppose.
 * 11) There is a picture and an article which could be used/linked to.
 * 12) "Ōyashiro-tsukuri" or "Ōyashiro-zukuri"?
 * 13) In the "Misedana-zukuri massha" gallery picture, in fact only the very right shrine does not have stairs. Are the other shrines in misedana-zukuri as well?
 * 14) The picture of the Taiyuin Mausoleum is doubled and could be removed from the gallery.
 * 15) In the gallery the picture of the Itsukushima Shrine purification hall could be confusing, since it appears to be open from all sides and the entrance might not be clearly visible.
 * 16) "This style seems to have the same origins as the ancient sumiyoshi- and taisha-zukuri styles, which it resembles, and the absence of a veranda may be due to the use in origin of an earthen floor, stil in use in some shrines." is a very loong sentence and should be split.

Reply
Thanks for the really thorough check. The NT list's length is fine, I think, it isn't overly long.

I won't have time today to rewrite the article, but will tomorrow. I am planning to cut it up for the Shinto shrines article (including only the two most common styles, plus the three ancient ones (Taisha, Sumiyoshi and Ise), important for historical reasons. I will paste the whole thing in the Shinto Shrine artchitecture article. Urashima Tarō (talk) 00:06, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Tamagaki
Just created Tamagaki. Would be great if you could have a look over it.bamse (talk) 19:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Done. Good job, as always. I modified the definition after consulting the EoS and the Kōjien. JAANUS's was too restrictive. Just one thing:

Changed unbarked to barked lumber fence (黒木の玉垣, kuroki no tamagaki?) made of unpeeled or unstripped boards or logs. I hope I am right.
 * Thanks for the edits to the definition and adding the picture. I think it is indeed "unbarked". My German-English dictionary tells me that "to bark" means "to remove the bark". So "unbarked" logs are logs which still have their bark, i.e. unpeeled. Please correct if I am wrong.bamse (talk) 11:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I was afraid of that ... :-( Urashima Tarō (talk) 13:55, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Photo
Today I looked for a replacement for the picture of the Itsukushima Shrine purification hall in the gallery, and found none. Have you one to propose?

I should be through perhaps by tomorrow night. BTW, I moved the list of stubs to make to the top, where they are not in the way.

Also, what should we do of all those red links (Hiyoshi-zukuri, Hachiman-zukuri, and so on? Use redirects to the appropriate section of the Shinto Architecture article by means of anchors? Or paste the relative sections in independent articles, expanding them little by little? Urashima Tarō (talk) 09:05, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * How about this picture as example of a tsumairi? I would not mind having dedicated articles on all of the "zukuri" but am not sure how much more we will be able to add. When you are don I'll have another look over the article if you wish.bamse (talk) 11:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Created Sandō
Created Sandō during a break of work on the styles. Found lots of errors, I haven't finished yet. Please take a look at Sandō, if you have time.Urashima Tarō (talk) 06:36, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good, but two questions which I cannot verify due to lack of sources: 1. Where are "stone lanterns and other decorations" located? At the start of the sandō or along the sandō or something else? 2. Is Omotesandō, the street, a Sandō (or former Sandō)? Presently it only says that the entrance to Meiji shrine is located close by.bamse (talk) 11:39, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

1. Tsurugaoka Hachiman-gū's sandō in Kamakura has lanterns at regular intervals over its entire length.
 * That's what I expected, from seeing a couple of shrines and temples. Just did not know if it was generic. Good you added the information to the article.

2. Omote-sandō was originally just the shrine's sandō's name, then it became the name of the community around it, then the name of the main street, Omotesandō Dōri. Is this what you wanted to know?
 * Actually I was wondering if Omotesandō Dōri was once a sandō. Nowadays I suppose the sandō starts from across the rails at Harajuku station, correct? (=from the big torii at the entrance to the woodes)

About Omotesandō Dōri, I don't think so, but I don't know. Omotesandō Dōri and the actual sandō make an angle, they are not on a line. Still, it could be. If find out, I will let you know.

About the question, correct (I think). The torii marks the beginning of today's sandō. Urashima Tarō (talk) 22:40, 4 December 2009 (UTC)


 * On the other hand also today's sandō makes two 90 degree turns. Do sandō always have to be straight? bamse (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Dunno. At this point, I don't think so.

Today, again beating around the bush, I created the article Sessha, Massha and relative redirects. It turned out longer than I thought.Urashima Tarō (talk) 07:13, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Big problem
Take a look at the Shinto architecture article. Urashima Tarō. That article is terrible. I pasted in my article as it is in the Shinto shrine article as a section (here), so at least it is in a more visible position. I will expand it and fix it there. Take a look at it, and see if it's OK. Tomorrow, if you agree, after finishing it I will proceed creating redirects from each style name to the relative section of the article. Urashima Tarō (talk) 07:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The Shinto architecture article is terrible. Actually I thought you were going to paste your article in there instead of into a section in Shinto shrine where it might be a bit too detailed for the general reader. For the time being it is very fine, but as Shinto shrine grows, it might be necessary to move content out to Shinto architecture. At that point it would be enough to mention just the parts (torii, lanterns, honden, haiden) and styles (zukuri) in the Shinto shrine article and have the details in Shinto architecture. Feel free to object.

Only a few commnents/suggestions (on the section in Shinto shrine) since it reads very nicely: bamse (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * the schematic picture shows the honden bigger than the haiden while the text states the opposite; Is it always true that the haiden is bigger?
 * 'torii...have become the'' symbol of Japan", maybe change to "a symbol"?
 * mention rōmon and sessha/massha in prose not as a list; (rōmon is technically just single-storied)
 * decide between writing "kasuga-zukuri (tsumairi)" or "tsumairi shinmei-zukuri", i.e., either with or without paranteheses
 * in nagare-zukuri, mention that honden size means the length of the side parallel to the roof ridge
 * in irimoya-zukuri, "Middle Ages" refers to the Japanese Middle Ages? (which as I just learned from History of Japan covers the time from the Kamakura period to the Meiji restoration). Just writing "Middle Ages" could be confusing at least for European readers
 * in ishi-no-ma zukuri: "The Ishi-no-ma-zukuri and Hachiman-zukuri styles are to a certain extent similar, both having a honden and a haiden connected by an ai-no-ma.", hachiman-zukuri consists of honden and haiden or only of a honden? (I remember we discussed this a while ago, but don't remember what the result was. In any case it should be consistent within the article, and the hachiman-zukuri section says that it is only a honden.)
 * add a note at the top (maybe close to the ishi-no-ma/gongen note) saying that structures can be of more than one zukuri, as it says in the misedana-zukuri section: "Most such shrines are in the kasuga- or nagare-zukuri styles." (meaning there are structures that are at the same time misedana and kasuga zukuri or misedana and nagare zukuri). bamse (talk) 10:14, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Made the changes.

About Shinto architecture, I agree 100% with you. The problem is that the article was written few hours ago. I cannot replace it without causing an edit war. He would surely complain loudly. But is a new user and may well get bored and abandon the article. In that case, we can hopefully move in. We will see.Urashima Tarō (talk) 12:46, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Good plan. Let's see how it develops. Did you leave a note on his talk page (is the ip, the same as Ayronadas?)?bamse (talk) 18:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Haibutsu Kishaku and Sessha/Massha
Fixed the references (got rid of those segments) and replaced them with betterstuff. That article I wrote a long time ago. I haven't left a message for Ayronadas, but based on what he wrote and when he wrote it I think he is the author of the rest as well. The article is so bad I wouldn't know what to say. The writer spells torii as Torri.

His timing was incredible: the article had been abandoned for ages, then two people prepare long expansions at the same time ...

Tomorrow I will make redirects for the various -zukuri to sections of the article. I haven't decided what to do then. Did you see the article Sessha, Massha I wrote? I would like to write an article about Important Cultural Properties, which is sorely needed. Have you got ideas? We could write it together, if you have time and interest. A little each, or a sectio each. I don't know how, but we could try. Urashima Tarō (talk) 09:26, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed quite a "coincidence". Maybe we could politely ask if he was/is aware of the expansion that you prepared!?


 * I noticed Sessha, Massha but did not have time yesterday for a closer look. Comments follow:


 * "For this reason, this kind of shrine is now sometimes called setsumassha", maybe add a note saying that it is a combination of the two terms (or kanji) as for somebody not familiar with Japanese the correspondence せっ /　せつ is not obvious ("ses" does not appear much like "setsu").
 * Wikilink "middle ages" or write "Japanese middle ages" - might be my ignorance, but I am always thinking of knights, Holy Roman Emperors and the inquisition,
 * "was were" does not read good. Maybe a comma could help, or shuffling around the sentence,
 * Interesting article, I learned a lot from it. Thanks.