User:Zellfaze/Why I'm Leaving Gendergap-l

My thinking on this has evolved over the last five years. I want to apologize to anyone who may have been hurt at the time. I can now see how my actions were not constructive to solving the issues at hand and were, in fact, perpetuating the problem. I will leave this page here for historical reasons.

If you have had a similar experience to the one described below, please feel free to reach out to me. I would be more than happy to help explain why this behavior is problematic. Zell Faze (talk) 21:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Equality matters a great deal to me. Because of shitty parents, my bisexuality, being polyamorous, and being considered a "criminal", I've been oppressed much of my life. Hearing about and seeing other folks dealing with similar types of problems in their lives bothers me in a really deep way. It was that which originally got me interested in the gender gap in the technology industry and then eventually the gender gap within Wikimedia.

Upon the death of Adrianne Wadewitz I learned of and joined the gender gap mailing list. The list is described as "a communication tool to collectively address the realities of the gender gap within our projects. We are focused on discussing solutions and exploring opportunities that may serve as a starting point to improve gender equity, increase the participation of women and trans women, and reduce the impact of the gender gap". I would encourage others to join it. It seems like a good list to be on most of the time and there is some interesting discussion that goes on there.

It is not the list for me though, at least not right now. The gender gap list is one of only two Wikimedia mailing lists that have brought me to tears (the other being wikitech-l) and unlike on Wikitech-l where I at least had some supporters, it does not appear that I have any on the gender gap list. I'm not really sure what to think of the situation on that list. I would guess that my communication skills just aren't up to par, though friends I've spoken to about the situation on list have pretty much universally told me that they are just being assholes. Either way though its clear that I need to work on my communication skills until I am able to express myself in a way that will offend and upset nobody and leave the list alone until I accomplish that.

I understand that it can be hard to tell tone in written text, so I want to make sure that anyone reading this understands that they are to read this in a somber just finished crying sort of way. I am very frustrated and still quite upset. Maybe once I calm down I'll ask that this page be deleted, but at the moment, since I can't get any help on list, or continue to express my frustration there, this was the best way to get it out.

The entire discussion made me feel bewildered, hurt, and frustrated. I felt that my needs to be heard and be trusted were not being met. I feel as though many of the folks on the list did a poor job of assuming good faith.

Anyhow, with that out of the way, this is the conversation that was just had on the gender gap mailing list. I am listed as DA. I've changed names to initials for everyone, but if you really care enough to see everything that happened and who said what, the archives are here and you are looking for the threads "A cautionary tale" and "men on lists".

Discussion on list
CM:

*snip*

A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!

Can you hear a pin dropping?

NM:

*snip*

> A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email

> list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started

> hassling them about it.

> SURPRISE!!

By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women.

DA:

NM and CM both, I really don't like the direction that this discussion is going. Can we please steer it back on topic and remember why we are all here?

*snip description of mailing list from website*

MS:

Did this really just happen?

Did we really just read someone suggesting that women are not participating as much in the mailing list -- with the more-than-subtle suggestion of the cause being that they didn't feel this group is completely woman-friendly -- and your response was to "remind us" what the point of this group is about? Did I misunderstand your email?

*snip*

Here's my (shocking) suggestion, as a starting point, at least in this mailing list, to make things a tad better for women to participate in:

In a group about the gender gap, men should attempt to take a step back. That is *not* to say they shouldn't participate: they absolutely should. But they should understand that the dynamic between the genders is so unbalanced, that at least in a group dedicated to the issue, they should take extra care to listen, not be confrontational, and overall to not sound like they are overtaking the conversation, making assumptions or generalizations.

*snip*

And who knows, maybe we'll even have *one* space where women don't feel like they need to constantly defend the "reasons" for their experiences and feelings or be worried of the harassment that is otherwise a pretty usual experience.

RA:

I'm sorry DA, but I think the topic of this thread is the notion that many men, including those in administrator roles (e.g. list moderators) simply don't even recognize misogyny, and don't recognize the importance of providing systems by which women (and others, for that matter) can easily limit the ability of people who have caused them problems from continuing to communicate with them.

*snip*

NM, your "Hm, we've discussed that author before... oh well." is really unhelpful and dismissive - and is pretty much exactly the kind of statement that Violet Blue is talking about in her article. It comes across as "She wrote something I didn't agree with in the past, so there's no reason to ever pay attention to her again". I am really hoping you didn't intend that.

And CM has a point. There are now more men posting to this thread than there are women. And most of you have missed the point entirely. Heaven help us from those who see themselves as our saviours.

KM:

There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues that affect them so, yes, men on a list like this can undermine its purpose.

DA:

I meant no offense. My reason for posting that email was that I was feeling uncomfortable with the direction that the discussion was going. I intentionally left my email non-specific in an attempt to prevent offense to anyone. I think you may have misunderstood me.

"A lot of women used to be outspoken about all this here when this email list started, but that stopped after a bunch of guys joined and started hassling them about it. SURPRISE!!"

This comment to me comes off as exactly the opposite of the sort of thing that I would want to see on this list. We are here to cooperate on reducing the gender-gap and this means that we should all work civilly together to do so. This comment to me sounds very similar to some of the common things that I see men say towards or around women.

*snip*

"By looking at this directory, I can tell that I mostly stopped reading this list in January 2012, one week after a fight between two vocal women."

This comment also creates a hostile environment that I don’t think is conducive to unsurprisingly is not conducive to resolving the hostile environment problem. This reply reminded me of how shouting matches begin. The thread is not an argument about which gender on-list makes the place the most hostile. This comment made me just as uncomfortable as the one made before it.

*snip*

My email was an attempt to bring us back to that topic and diffuse what I, at least in my head, had expected to turn into a situation that I felt uncomfortable with, and that I felt others on the list (men and women both) would.

Again, I'm really sorry if I offended anyone. I was genuinely trying to make sure that we didn't have a situation crop up that I thought would really make everyone uncomfortable. Instead I seem to have just buggered things up more.

RA:

DA, if I may suggest - the best way to get a mailing list back on topic is to write to the topic, not to remind people of the rules.

NM:

> Derric, if I may suggest - the best way to get a mailing list back on

> topic is to write to the topic,

Sure, and of course the topic is throwing judgements on who missed the point:

> There are now more men posting to this thread than there are women. And

> most of you have missed the point entirely. Heaven help us from those

> who see themselves as our saviours.

Agreed. You for instance. Time for me to unsubscribe and delete 35 MB of hatred from my hard disk.

KC:

Derric, you say you hope your email didn't come across as shouting over the women or generalizing about them, but to me it did (and I say this not just to make you feel bad - I see you've already apologized in another thread - but to make a larger point). This is something women online In general, and women on this list especially, in my experience, face very often: a discussion about how we feel unwelcome and talked over is responded to by a man saying, "now, now, let's not be mean and hurt men's feelings" or "well that's not what I intended!" or all this argument won't fix anything!" When was the last time someone stepped into a conversation among men and said "Oh now boys, stop being so mean" or "you're hurting my feelings by talking about something that needs to be fixed, I insist you stop"? It's a condescending approach that is pretty much only deployed against women, this sense that fighting, or even disagreeing in a way that makes men feel like imperfect allies, is somehow unseemly and should be stopped. And again, I don't think you intended condescension, but the world condescends using those same terms/arguments.

Though the words may be the same, "i stopped posting because men started shouting over me" and "i stopped posting because women started shouting over me" come from very different places and mean very different thing to the people involved in those sentences. Similarly, to respond to something someone else said, is NOT an equivalent experience for two women to be "vocal" in disagreement and a man to find it unattractive/annoying and thus tune it out, and for women to stop speaking because they feel that whenever they share their experiences, men jump in to say "yes but" and derail the conversation. One results in a man rolling his eyes; the other results in women literally feeling unsafe and unwelcome in a discussion space.

Part of being a productive ally is a willingness to listen to and believe experiences people tell you about, even when hearing them feels like you're being confronted about something you didn't personally do.

MS:

That's why I opted to being only slightly sarcastic and not come at you with a 10-tonne brick. I assumed you didn't mean offense, but that's why I wrote the paragraph about men having to take a step back; sometimes it's hard (especially in these types of lists) to notice how some comments come out, especially to a group that is already used to being marginalized, attacked and generalized just for speaking up.

*snip*

CM:

> There is a tendency of men to disregard women's discussion of issues

> that affect them so, yes, men on a list like this can undermine its

> purpose.

>

> --KM

FYI, for those who want to read the early archives, they are linked from the bottom link - they start here: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2011-February/date.html

DA:

Would anybody object to me hijacking this thread to use as a sort of meta thread for what just happened? I have further questions and things to explain and get feedback on. I can start another thread if wanted.

This whole situation sort of reminds me of when I tried suggesting on Wikitech-l that people make use of NVC and people were really offended. Like there my intention was never to come off as condescending, but apparently I am just really awful at not coming off that way via email. I'd like to work on that and also find out what sort of things men on this list can do to make the environment better are and in specific myself. I think a polite discussion of what just happened would help advance all of those goals.

VA:

This list is not for the purpose of improving people's communication skills. If you would like to help women in Wikimedia projects and you know that you have difficulty communicating without offending people, working on your communication skills in another venue is a good first step. A good second step is to search the internet for resources on ally skills.

To be crystal clear: you will not be helping women in Wikipedia by continuing to ask for help from anyone on this list or centering yourself in the discussion.