User:Zouavman Le Zouave/Ibaranoff24

Progressive metal

 * Article by the Chicago Tribune. Abstract available, but actual content of the article unavailable. The words "progressive", "prog", or "metal" do not appear in the available content.
 * Article by the Long_Beach_Press-Telegram. Quoted as saying "the progressive-metal band System of a Down".
 * Article by The Washington Post. Quoted as saying "a prog-metal band like System of a Down".
 * Article by the Miami Herald. Title : "System of a Down carves a distinct path with prog-thrash sound". Refers to the sound of the band's music, not the genre, and does not make any reference to progressive metal.
 * Article by Rolling Stone. Quoted as calling the band "prog-metal radicals".
 * Article by The Boston Globe. Quoted as saying "the strong prog component seen in groups such as Tool and System of a Down". Does not label the band progressive metal, simply points out the progressive components of their music.
 * Total : three sources labeling the band explicitly as "progressive metal" and/or "prog metal".

Nu metal

 * Biography on MusicMight, website operated by Garry Sharpe-Young, a musicologist specialized in rock music and heavy metal music. While the band appears in several categories (not including progressive metal), the biography clearly states "Los Angeles Nu-Metal band".
 * Book titled "Nu Metal" by Tommasso Iannini. Cites the band among well verified nu metal bands, such as Korn, Limp Bizkit, and Slipknot, but excludes them from the lists of bands that have influenced the movement without being a part of it.
 * Book titled "Rough Guide to Heavy Metal" by Essi Berelian. Information is not available on the Internet on how the author words System of a Down's relationship with the genre.
 * Article by the Hartford Courant. The article is titled : "System of a Down : Nu Metal for the Thinking Man".
 * Book titled "Rock & roll : A Social History" by Paul Friedländer and Peter Miller. On page 305, the authors write : "System of a Down, nu-metallers from Los Angeles's Armenian exile community".
 * Book titled "Nu Metal: the next generation of rock & punk" by Joel McIver. The abstract of the book lists System of a Down as "leader of the [nu metal] scene".
 * Article by the Chicago Sun-Times. The article's title is "They're an Armenian band, but nu-metal System of a Down is rising to the top in U.S."
 * Article by The Independent. The article claims System of a Down is among the "nu metal gurus".
 * Article by Stylus Magazine. Positions System of a Down at the second place in its "Top Ten Nu-Metal bands".
 * Total : eight sources labeling the band explicitly as "nu metal".

System of a Down

 * 05:03, March 29th, 2009 - Edits genres in the infobox without consensus, despite the warnings on the article. While he uses "per sources" as his rationale, he omits nu metal from the genres, despite the numerous sources claiming the band as such.
 * 05:21, April 2nd, 2009 - Restores his preferred version of the infobox after the intervention of anonymous and new users. Again, he uses "sources" as his rationale, but omits nu metal from the genres.
 * 06:29, April 2nd, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave restores the genres backed up by consensus in the talk page.


 * 10:13, April 2nd, 2009 - Undoes User:Zouavman Le Zouave's edit, accusing him of making "edits based on [his] POV". User:Zouavman Le Zouave did not revert back to the previous version, in order not to cause an edit war, rather focusing on discussion on the talk page.
 * 17:22, April 4th, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave begins to add sources to back up the nu metal claim.
 * 18:45, April 4th, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave removes a link that does not explicitly describe System of a Down as a progressive metal band. The link was previously used to source this claim in the article.


 * 02:20, April 5th, 2009 - Removes legitimate, explicit sources, claiming : "way too many citations of an inconsistently-sourced genre".
 * 02:32, April 5th, 2009 - Restores the link removed by User:Zouavman Le Zouave the previous day, claiming that the link does support the progressive metal claim. However, the article only mentions System of a Down as having "prog components," which makes no inference about genre. Adds an unsourced statement in the article claiming that "The band has contested the use of the term "nu metal" to refer to its music".
 * 02:45, April 6th, 2009 - Removes nu metal from the infobox (after other users have edited the page), claiming "let's wait until an agreement is reached before adding any genres". While this is a good attitude, Ibaranoff24 does not wait until an agreement is reached before removing nu metal from the infobox.
 * 18:16, April 6th, 2009 - Anonymous user adds nu metal into the infobox.


 * 19:36, April 6th, 2009 - Reverts user without commenting on the edit, or sending a message on the user's talk page. Again, Ibaranoff24 does not wait for community agreement to remove genres from the infobox.
 * 16:01, April 12th, 2009 - Modifies Template:System of a Down to remove it from Category:Nu metal musical groups templates. This was done without any discussion or prior agreement with anyone, and contradicts the many sources labeling the band as such.
 * 19:13, April 12th, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave modifies sentence that implies that the dropped A tuning belong to nu metal, and removes unsourced claim that System of a Down denies the nu metal claim, added by Ibaranoff24 on April 5th, 2009.


 * 21:02, April 12th, 2009 - Reverts User:Zouavman Le Zouave, claiming that "the text is clearly sourced". However, neither the claim that System of a Down rejects the nu metal attribution nor the claim that the dropped A tuning belongs to the nu metal genre are mentioned in the source given.

Talk:System of a Down

 * 18:01, March 28th, 2009 - Denies existence of well-verified musical genre.
 * 05:21, April 2nd, 2009 - Edits infobox to include genres fitting his interpretation of the sources, not according to the consensus found on the talk page. In fact, no consensus was found on the talk page as of April 2nd (see archive).
 * 16:00, April 1st, 2009 - User:Skaterchild3 has "no problem" with adding nu metal to infobox.


 * 10:18, April 2nd, 2009 - Claims nu metal is "worst sourced" genre for System of a Down, and denies existence of consensus found in August/September 2007.
 * 12:32, April 2nd, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave lists additional sources to support the nu metal claim.
 * 13:17, April 2nd, 2009 - User:Skaterchild3 "completely agrees with Zouavman", and supports the claim that nu metal is one of the band's verified genres.


 * 13:27, April 2nd, 2009 - Dismisses numerous sources as non-neutral, and continues to deny existence of the nu metal genre.
 * 13:29, April 2nd, 2009 - Denies existence of consensus, regardless of the fact that he is the only one rejecting the genre.
 * 11:05, April 3rd, 2009 - Continues to deny existence of consensus, claims that User:Zouavman Le Zouave is "talking down to [him] as if [he was] inferior".
 * 12:37, April 3rd, 2009 - User:J04n inquires on where consensus was found.


 * 13:29, April 3rd, 2009 - Archives previous sections, including that where consensus was found in 2007.
 * 14:23, April 3rd, 2009 - Claims nu metal was "never widely reported in connection with System of a Down", while progressive metal was "well-sourced for both the band and multiple albums". With three sources labeling the band as progressive metal and countless describing the band as nu metal, this is simply untrue.
 * 14:55, April 3rd, 2009 - User:J04n launches a survey on whether the community believes nu metal should be included as an infobox genre.
 * 15:36, April 3rd, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave clarifies using Wikipedia recommendations that this survey should not be used as an alternative for discussion.
 * 15:38, April 3rd, 2009 - User:Bardin uses book sources to support the nu metal inclusion and dismisses progressive metal as significantly less verifiable. User:Bardin also clarifies that Wikipedia seeks verifiability, not truth.


 * 15:56, April 3rd, 2009 - Dismisses each source as unreliable, claiming that the band was only described as such because of "the bands it toured with". However, none of those sources give that rationale when attributing that genre to the band.
 * 16:00, April 3rd, 2009 - Suggests that the sources label the band as nu metal because of the bands it toured with. Again, those sources do not give that rationale when attributing that genre to the band.
 * 16:30, April 3rd, 2009 - User:Bardin reminds Ibaranoff24 that his personal opinions on the sources do not matter, and that Wikipedia seeks verifiability, not truth.
 * 18:50, April 3rd, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave reminds Ibaranoff24 that his claims represent a minority position in the musical journalism world, and that a source in the general press has less authority on the matter than sources specifically focused on music journalism.


 * 05:06, April 4th, 2009 - Claims User:Zouavman Le Zouave dismisses sources that do not back up his viewpoint, and insists on the idea that the categorization as "nu metal is not as well verified as the other genres." However, the number and quality of the sources displayed so far in the discussion contradict his claim.
 * 12:49, April 4th, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave makes clear that he does not dismiss sources because his personal opinions differ from them, citing Rolling Stone as a source he finds legitimate. User:Zouavman Le Zouave reminds Ibaranoff24 that opinions do not matter, but that sources do.


 * 15:43, April 4th, 2009 - Claims that "several major newspapers and Rolling Stone" is a sufficient condition to consider a genre attribution well verified. In the progressive metal case, which he is referring to, there are two major newspapers and Rolling Stone. However, on the nu metal case, there are many more sources of equal or superior reliability. Yet, Ibaranoff24 dismisses the nu metal attribution as "not well verified".
 * 17:14, April 4th, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave makes distinction between a news source and a musical journalism source, stating his opinion that the latter is more reliable when it comes to musical genre debates.
 * 18:44, April 4th, 2009 - User:Zouavman Le Zouave announces removal of a source and explains his rationale on the talk page before his edit.


 * 02:07, April 5th, 2009 - Claims User:Zouavman Le Zouave holds a "personal bias" that he uses in the discussion. Also claims that coverage of progressive metal claim is more "consistent" than for nu metal. However, some of the sources used to support that claim are not very consistent on the genre, some using the termes "prog-thrash sound" or even only stating that the band had a "strong prog component", which does not make any inference about the genre itself.
 * 02:24, April 5th, 2009 - Claims User:Zouavman Le Zouave is "twisting the facts to fit [his] own opinion". However, the only sources used by User:Zouavman Le Zouave are sources that explicitly use the term "nu metal" rather than indirect or vague references to the word "progressive" that can be found in the sources used by Ibaranoff24.
 * 04:56, April 5th, 2009 - Claims that nu metal was "never consistently reported in connection to System of a Down".

Opinions of other users involved in the discussion

 * User:Prophaniti - Favors inclusion per number of sources rather than editor consensus. Also favors inclusion of experimental rock and progressive rock (not to be confused with progressive metal). Later favors the inclusion of nu metal and progressive metal. User:Prophaniti was blocked for a week because of edit warring, and did not contribute under that account again. However, an anonymous account, most likely operated by User:Prophaniti, left a hateful message to the Wikipedia community, calling the users "retards".
 * User:Zouavman Le Zouave - States his opposition to editing without first finding consensus, as well his openness to finding a new consensus. Supports the inclusion of nu metal and the exclusion of progressive metal from the infobox
 * User:Skaterthealmighty - Does not oppose the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox. Later supports the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox.
 * User:J04n - Supports the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox.
 * User:Bardin - Supports the claim that System of a Down is a nu metal band, and claims that he "could find not find any book that describes them as progressive metal".
 * User:Ibaranoff24 - Supports the inclusion of progressive metal and the exclusion of nu metal from the infobox.

Numbers

 * Number of users supporting the inclusion of nu metal in the infobox : 4/6, or 66.7 %
 * Number of users supporting the exclusion of nu metal from the infobox : 1/6, or 16.7 %
 * Number of users supporting the inclusion of progressive metal in the infobox : 2/6, or 33.3 %

While Wikipedia is not a democracy, those numbers reflect that, by repeatedly removing nu metal from the infobox, Ibaranoff24 has made edits supporting his point of view, ignoring the opinions of other Wikipedia users involved in the discussion.