User talk:+JMJ+/Archives/2021/November

Vichy French Military Division order of battle moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, Vichy French Military Division order of battle, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of " " before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Mccapra (talk) 13:08, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Kołyszko
Can you just stop? Bolesław Kołyszko was called that way, stop changing his name. What's with you and your obsession about Lithuanising every single name? It's not a Lithuanian Wikipedia, you can write whatever you want. Marcelus (talk) 22:08, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I thought this was over and done with, but it seems not. As can be seen in the page history, it is you who comes along and renames articles according to your whim. No one said that this is Lithuanian Wikipedia and no one is behaving like this is. The case in point is literally everything. As I have repeated many times, according to WP:UE - If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). Are you just going to ignore Wiki policy because you can't Polonize names as you wish? All of this frustration would be better spent on actually improving the articles of the respective countries, i.e. Lithuania and Poland, because the articles on the various topics of the Uprising of 1863 in BOTH countries are seriously in need of expansion.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't Polonise anything, I use the actual names of the people we talk about. And Lithuanian is not an appropriate language for the persons of Polish culture and language. Marcelus (talk) 22:26, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You Polonise, because that's what you just did. If he was so very of Polish culture and language, then what was he doing in the heartland of Lithuania? He was there because he was Lithuanian. If he was so Polish, he would be in Malopolska or something. Lithuanian is the appropriate language for individuals of the Lithuanian history, just as Polish is for explicitly Polish history and not that of its neighbours, just as German is appropriate for the individuals of German history and not of its neighbours.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:32, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * What he was doing in Lithuania? He was living there. Maybe you didn't notice but there is still quite a few Poles in Lithuania Marcelus (talk) 23:05, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

This matter (Polish/Lithuanian thing) needs input from a wide range of editors. Perhaps you guys should work together on that? - GizzyCatBella  🍁  22:43, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Wide range of editors? As a whole, the general topic of Uprising of 1863/January Uprising is REALLY lacking and making a topic that is as lacking as this into something controversial is not the best course of action, so to speak. If it concerns what names should be used in general, then the answer would have been given a long time ago with WP:UE, but as Marcelus contradicts it, it seems as though not much can be done in this regard.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:49, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I proposed the simple solution on Kołyszko's talk page. I don't contradicts it, I am simply stating that this rule doesn't apply to Polish-Lithuanian figures.~It would be nice if you would acknowledge it Marcelus (talk) 22:52, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay folks, hold it till tomorrow or some random admin. will use the block hammer soon.
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 * -  GizzyCatBella  🍁  23:07, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Marcelus' "simple solution" is not at all correct and even distorts history, making the things that would remain in just WP:LITHUANIA in normal circumstances become part of WP:POLAND - a parallel would be that everything historical in WP:BELGIUM becomes part of WP:NL. I would add that mixing together people from the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania with those of the Kingdom of Poland under just "Polish-Lithuanian" is ahistorical and also problematic, because then the articles typically go like this - the individual from the Kingdom of Poland are just Polish (Mikołaj Firlej (died 1526), Dymitr Jerzy Wiśniowiecki and Piotr Ożarowski) while the one of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania is "Polish-Lithuanian" (Michał Kazimierz "Rybeńko" Radziwiłł, Grzegorz Antoni Ogiński and Jerzy Radziwiłł). The individuals concerned voted with their actions that they were more Lithuanian instead of Polish, and so they should be considered as Lithuanians. Of course, there was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but in it, the individuals always separated themselves from each other along the lines of those from the Crown (koroniarze) versus those from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Also, I left a response here.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 23:24, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * It only applies to people of mixed Polish-Lithuanian identity so it's rather natural these are figures from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, don't you think? Also we are talking here about personal names, you tries to apply Lithuanised forms of Polish-sounding names to people who were never using them Marcelus (talk) 23:30, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * A clear example of a double-standard - those from the Kingdom of Poland are pure-blooded Poles while people from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania can't even be called Lithuanian, regardless of the fact that their entire life revolved around it. Also, people being of mixed ethnicity does not preclude them from being labelled as just one thing on Wikipedia - think of all of the monarchs, whose parents were not one country (e.g. the Habsburgs and Bourbons). This is connected to names, because you started talking about "Polish-Lithuanian", implicitly leading to the name being Polish-language. Just stop with this renaming and just focus on the content, especially the explicitly Polish ones. Most articles are stubs and here we are arguing about the names of stubs. There is limited time as is and it would be better spent on expanding articles on this topic and not arguing over the names.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 23:43, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Wait @Cukrakalnis, but if renaming is unimportant then why you keep arguing about it instead spending time expanding articles? These must (Lord knows why) be important then, right :-) ? - GizzyCatBella  🍁  23:54, 23 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I argue over renaming now, because I don't want this to lead to a tsunami of Polonization in other articles, e.g. Antanas Mackevičius. From the way I see it, Marcelus' actions are an injustice, because do I come over to articles of WP:POLAND and start creating articles with Lithuanian names? No. What do I do? I go and happily create/expand articles of WP:LITHUANIA with Lithuanian names. I create articles, time goes on and I successfully contribute to Wikipedia, except Marcelus comes along and sidetracks energy and time from the content to arguing over the names - e.g. Romualdas Giedraitis and Boleslovas Kolyška.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 00:09, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * @Cukrakalnis that's your opinion. There is no such thing like this persons belongs to WP:Lithuania, this one to WP:Belarus and this one to WP:Poland, histories of countries are interlinked. I repeat myself again articles should be named with the actual names of the people their describes and it doesn't determine their ethnicity Marcelus (talk) 07:44, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * There is such a thing as different people belonging to the WP of just one country and that is self-evident: e.g. Mikalojus Akelaitis, Władysław I Herman or Roman Dmowski. Otherwise, the categorization and putting them into various Wikiprojects would be pointless and unnecessary, which it is not. Sure, the histories of countries are interlinked, but to pretend that this suddenly means that this somehow stops from ascribing certain individuals to a certain state is unfounded. The actual name does not mean much, because Wikipedia first uses the Anglicized name - Casimir Pulaski, and then the name as set out by WP:UE, which uses a Greek name for a Greek person (Ioannis Metaxas) and Turkish name for a Turkish person (İsmet İnönü). No provisions for "actual name", which is only complexified by the flexibility of back then (19th century) with regards to it (easily making 'Antoni' into 'Antoine' when writing in French, even if the person, without doubt, was Polish or making 'Antanas' into 'Antoni' when writing in Polish, even if the person was undoubtedly Lithuanian). According to Wikipedia policy, the "actual name" is not really taken into account and wisely so, because then many articles, e.g. Charlemagne or Stephen Báthory, and would have totally different titles, which most would not know.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cukrakalnis and @Marcelus - I’ll try to find a solution. Please describe the issue (take your time and without criticism of each other, just the reasons why please) on my talk page and I’ll take it from there. -  GizzyCatBella  🍁  23:56, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Request
Can you please put the sources in the bibliography sections and within text use only references with Template:sfn? It's very hard to read and edit articles after you. ALso if it is possible pls use "ill" instead of "interlanguge link" Cheers Marcelus (talk) 21:38, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Ok, I will change accordingly.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:43, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * User:Marcelus, thanks for telling me this, I will keep your suggestions in mind when editing in the future. As of now, I have fixed the Boleslovas Kolyška article accordingly. Others are in line too.--Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:59, 24 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Marcelus (talk) 22:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)