User talk:+JMJ+/Archives/2023/December

WP:ANI
There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.

I have sent you a note about a page you started
Hello, Cukrakalnis. Thank you for your work on Lithuanian Front. User:Kline, while examining this page as a part of our page curation process, had the following comments:

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Kline • talk to me! • contribs 18:25, 5 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your very kind words and encouragement :) Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Garsden massacre
Isn't there an article about this?

FYI on the prime minister, someone put the text you removed back, that was discouraging and probably an invitation to an edit war, so I didn't take it out again and suggest you don't either. I did however tag it dubious with an explanation that the content was not only unsourced but not in the body at all. I did add a section about LAF/Provisional Government. I found a quote that said he was a collaborator, but I still don't think "war criminal" is supported.

Oh and on sources, you saw that list I posted right? I also found some info on Bubnys, and you are right, relying on him that much may well be justified.Adding others anyway, hth Elinruby (talk) 21:09, 10 December 2023 (UTC)


 * There is no article about it, neither on the English nor Lithuanian wikipedias. The location is actually Gargždai and there are a few sentences about the massacre in that article, but nothing much.
 * Yeah, I realized that reverting in the prime minister article would probably only make the situation more incendiary, so I withheld myself.
 * I did see the list you posted at Talk:Juozas Ambrazevičius. I'm glad to see that you contributed significantly to many articles, but I'm not sure if I should do so myself at the moment (for maybe a few days? a week? a few weeks? I don't know, we'll see, it really depends), because I want to avoid possibly even more unnecessary drama in such a highly sensitive topic. Cukrakalnis (talk) 15:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I would hold off right now. I was hoping it would auto archive but they keep doubling down on the bullshit and it needs to get to 72 hours, I am told, for that to happen. Whatever you do don't get mad. I think that is why they are picking on me; they think I will blow up. At this oint I have been insulted by better though.

This should never have been brought to ANI, but clearly Marcelua thinks he is correct here, which makes me sad. I think Ostralia is right that nobody wants to touch the thread now but I can't feel guilty about that. Post a long bullshit list of reasons I am supposedly evil, and I am going to respond to it. I already made the mistake once of assuming the admins would actually look at the page. I am imho showing a lot of AGF to ignore some of the the bullshit, but anyway. My best suggestion to you is to start producing some really nice work on some other topic. While you are still theoretically accused of distortion I advise picking a topic that doesn't involve Lithuania or the Holocaust for a little while. I have suggestions depending on your interests. I just backspaced some out, too easy to criticise. I know someone who could use some help with Rote Kappelle, that's maybe safe. if they haven't deleted it yet, Latino punk, or hmm civil wars in the Congo or Commedia dell'Arte masks or Gayant or Welsh legends or Corruption in X articles, or Geology of North America or Barbary pirates or Hanseatic League. Or Camel archer or hey, I keep trying to come back to Tres Fronteras; I would appreciate anything you do there and yes there are English sources. These others are just brainstorming. But just to prove that you aren't stuck on the Holocaust in Lithuania at least until it ages off (72 hours since last post) or they close the thread because the people there just will not shut up. I actually suck at noticeboards but I am pretty sure that is good advice. Harbin Russians needs sourcing but might be too close to Lithuania]] for tonight. Or check out what happens at the Reference Desk or the Village Pump. hth, feel free to ask me any questions. Elinruby (talk) 11:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I posted it there and Provisional Government and Lithuanian Activist Front. I still can't find any good sources that the 258th actually existed but I haven't tried as hard there yet. However if we are are going wilh sources about "Lithuanians" in general yes there are sources that they killed people and sources that they had a habit of signing up and disappearing with their weapons and that they produced recruits for the SS unit who all had to be medically discharged by the Nazis. Also something about not wearing the uniform, so "Lithuanians" in general may not even meet the reductionist "if you wore the uniform you collaborated" criterion that some people apply elsewhere.


 * I read all that yesterday, probably from sources on that list. I will double check that before I close these tabs I have open. All of these are things you have said though, and which Marcelus has scoffed at, is my point. Some of them I read about the LDF, but they are the people saying that "Lithuanians" is close enough when it comes to sourcing.


 * I really am quite limited in my time today and I am worried that someone will try to close the thread because the people there just will not shut up, then, gathering that you are accused of repeatedly whitewashing something, sanction you as an example. It sounds paranoid but this is how I got sanctioned for disrupting Collaboration with Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy by recklessly discussing what the sources say vs what the article still says, which the complaining editor objected to. If it comes to that please feel free to point people at this comment if that helps. I need to make a bunch of phone calls today though and while on hold as I am right now likely can edit some version of the above into the discussion there pretty soon Elinruby (talk) 16:51, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I fully understand what you mean, and its unfortunate that the situation has developed in the manner it has. I thank you for your suggestions about what to do, and from what you recommended, civil wars in the Congo and the Hanseatic League pique my interest, so I'll try to look into them soon. However, considering I will be offline this week-end, I will be unable to respond to anyone, so don't worry if you don't see any activity the next few days, it was already planned a long time before all of this. I had seen your previous message from December 12 already, but I hadn't answered it because I didn't really have anything to add and agreed with what you said. I'm very understanding about RL issues imposing themselves, so it's totally fine that you can't spend all day or even just a few hours on Wikipedia. In fact, I think you're going above and beyond of what is expected of you in Wikipedia in terms of active contribution - I wasn't expecting that much attention by you to be put into a niche topic like WW2 Lithuania! Cukrakalnis (talk) 18:49, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Well it's been going on for two years now, Somebody needs to do something and for a while there Marcelus was soundinof kind of convincing as he always does until someone tries to check his facts.The problem is that nobody has done this really. It is no longer the case that I just haven't had the time to look into it, and now I have taken a look at the history of Vilinus/Wilno and realized that this is was the capital of the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth that occasioned the secret land swap, and all of theselocations we are talking about are in disputed borderlands, well. it's just more complicated than that. But the utterly fundamentally bedrock stupid thing is that the article was way way out of compliance, based, as far as I can tell, on nothing you did. And Marcelus claims there are no ethnic narractives in this story. It boggles the mind. Look at the recent history of LAF sometime for a laugh. Elinruby (talk) 22:20, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
 * 258th did not participate in the Holocaust according to Bubnys A statement compiled historian Arūnas Bubnys for the Lithuanian Holocaust commission specifically lists the 258th, along with most others created that late in the war, as one of the 14 police battalions that had no involvement in the Holocaust. (Bubnys p.33)
 * Bubnys, Arūnas. “Lithuanian Police Battalions and the Holocaust [tel:19411943 (1941-1943]).” The
 * International Commission, 2001. https://www.komisija.lt/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Research
 * by-A.Bubnys-english.pdf. Elinruby (talk) 19:06, 18 December 2023 (UTC)