User talk:Χ/Archive 2013

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Standardisation of Tunisian Arabic
Hello Abjiklam,

I am contacting you concerning the deletion of the Standardisation subsection in Tunisian Arabic. The mentioned reference could be as a matter of fact considered original research, however the whole concept of the Tunisian language / dialect could be considered as such as well. No official recognition exists for the language as most political efforts simply regard the language as Arabic, and the Standardisation attempts are within the same vein of the Egyptian ones, no official recognition of Egyptian as a language per se, yet it managed to get a language section on Wikipedia. The text of the subsection was not assertive but suggestive about the nature of the issue. Furthermore, you have deleted the part where Tamazight is added next to Berber. I believe it is important to write the word Amazigh instead of or at least next to, Berber when describing persons, and Tamazight when describing the language, as many ethnic Imazighen consider the word to be offensive. Most references I'm aware of on this issue are in French, here's a link in English if you may be interested.

Best regards

E3 (talk) 11:51, 6 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi E3,
 * There's an established consensus on Wikipedia (though I could not tell you where it comes from) that the different varieties of Arabic should not be considered neither dialects nor separate languages until reliable sources assert so. However there have been publications on Tunisian Arabic and that is why it can have an article without it being considered original research. On the other hand, the standardization you introduced to the article seems to be the work of an individual or a group of people that has not yet achieved sufficient recognition to have its place in an encyclopedia. I understand you did not add this information in a authoritative manner, but it still counts as OR until various sources mention that it is in fact used significantly.
 * As for the Egyptian Arabic, I think the reason it was accepted is because there are enough books that have been published in it. So no OR there.
 * Now on the issue of Berber / Tamazight, that will have to be taken to its designated article Berber languages. As it is now, I consider Tamazight to be the name of Berber in the Berber languages. We wouldn't write "French / Français" for example. Maybe you can push for a move of Berber language to Tamazight? If that reaches consensus then I will no longer object to writing Tamazight instead of Berber on the Tunisian Arabic article. And do know that I don't wish to offend anyone by having Berber written instead of Tamazight. I just think this issue should be dealt with on a larger scale if it is to addressed.
 * Best,
 * Abjiklɐm (tɐlk) 11:43, 7 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Abjiklam,
 * Thank you for your concise reply, I have taken your points into account. I would just like to add a small point concerning the Tamazight issue. It is naturally understood that writing "French / Français" or "German / Deutsch" would not make any sense, but the issue is somehow closer to writing "German / Heinie" or "German / Kraut". The term "Berber" was allegedly coined by Romans after the Third Punic War either because inhabitants of North Africa were assimilated to Barbarians or because the speech patterns of Tamazight sounded for some reason similar to "Br br br br", and was later picked up by the different political factions dominating the region. It may still be used as a derogatory term by Arabs as well until today,here's one example if you may be interested. I will try to bring these facts to the talk page of Berber languages and see the outcome.
 * Best regards
 * E3 (talk) 12:29, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Tunisian presidents
Hello Abjiklam,

please see Talk:List of Presidents of Tunisia for reasoning of my edit/revert. Thank you.

Kind regards. --RJFF (talk) 16:43, 23 May 2013 (UTC)