User talk:Ɱ/Archive 6

Sleepy Hollow Country Club
Hello, M (What is that letter? How do I type it?) -- Earlier today I completed a copy-edit of Sleepy Hollow Country Club. I have several questions:

1) Within the larger "History" section, the short section Sleepy Hollow Country Club is confusing. I'll copy the entire paragraph here for easy reference, numbering the sentences for ease of discussion:


 * (1) Sleepy Hollow Country Club, founded in 1911, predates the 1996 renaming of the neighboring village of North Tarrytown to Sleepy Hollow. (2) The club is named after its location in the river valley of the Pocantico River, a river which was once called "Slapershaven" (Sleepers' Haven); the name later grew to apply to the valley. (3) Contemporarily, the name refers only to the village of Sleepy Hollow geographically, however.

The first sentence is fine. In the second sentence, in the phrase "the name later grew to apply to the valley", it's not completely clear to which name the phrase "the name" refers. I assume "the name" refers to the old name of the river, "Slapershaven". But you've also got an English translation there in parentheses. To be really clear, I would write, "that name – Slapershaven – later grew to apply to the valley in which the river flowed". However, there is nothing to explain how "Slapershaven", or even "Sleepers' Haven", became "Sleepy Hollow", and support the initial statement that "the club is named after its location in the river valley".

The third sentence is really not clear at all. "Contemporarily" is not clear, especially when paired with a present tense verb, "refers". I recommend using a more precise word or phrase. Also, again, it's not clear what is meant by "the name" – Slapershaven? Sleepers' Haven? "Sleepy Hollow"? The adverb "geographically" doesn't help much. After it is made clear what "the name" really means, you're saying that it refers only to a village (and one given that name only in 1996), so what does that have to do with the name of the country club, which you say got the name before the naming of the village? 2) In the larger section "Architecture", the first sentence in the third paragraph in Sleepy Hollow Country Club is:


 * The long axis of the house is the most ornate; it faces the Hudson River, with a view of the river from its terrace and west-facing windows.

This may be the language of architecture, but "the long axis" at the beginning of this sentence is not clear to the average reader. To me, an "axis" is an abstract term, referring to the hypothetical line running down the middle of the longest part of the house, and something abstract cannot be ornate. You'll see that I changed the related and similar sentence in the lead to avoid this phrase. Even if you stretch it and argue that it just means that the long sides of the house (presumably both long sides) are more ornate than the short sides of the house, you have a bit of a problem with the next clause: "it faces the Hudson River". What is "it"? It's ambiguous. It could mean "the long axis [of the house]" or it could mean "the house". If "it" is "the long axis of the house", then you're saying, "the long axis of the house faces the Hudson River. However, in truth, only one side of the house can face the river, and not the other long side. I don't know if you're satisfied with the way the sentence is now worded or if you want to change it. You can:


 * 1) Leave it as it is.


 * 2) Change "the long axis of the house is the most ornate" to "the long sides of the house are the most ornate"; in that case, you'd have to change "it faces the Hudson River" to "the long west side of the house faces the Hudson River". You could start a new sentence and say, "The house faces the Hudson River"; then, "its terrace and west-facing windows" would make sense.


 * 3) Revise the sentence so that it is similar to the way I revised the sentence in the lead.

Let me know what you want to do.

3) Just a comment: it seems that the section Sleepy Hollow Country Club is a mass of text. It's quite long and very detailed. I'm sure there are some readers who will enjoy reading that, but for most, I think it's too much. If you want to keep all of it, perhaps it would help to find a few images to show some of those details, like the mantel, up close.

4) In the third paragraph in the section Sleepy Hollow Country Club, there are some things that are not quite clear. I'm going to copy the entire paragraph here for easy reference, and number the sentences for ease of discussion:


 * (1) Original to the house, and occupying its northeast terrace against its service wing, was an Italian garden with vine-clad pergolas on each side, symmetrical gravel paths, marble benches, long stone balustrades, and a pool with a fountain in the middle. (2) The garden was to the house's north and below the river front. (3) It was built against the hillside and occupied a portion of a slope that falls far below it. (4) It had characteristics of a hanging garden. (5) The lower walls of the house were screened with a row of large cedars planted on the highest part of the garden. (6) The garden formed an immense rectangular space, and on the four sides of the terrace there were pergolas thickly overgrown with vines. (7) In the center was a pool and fountain. (8) Walks and beds of flowers and shrubbery occupied the rest, visible from the windows of the river front.

The first sentence is fine. In the second sentence, what does "below the river front" mean? Normally, I would think a "river front" would mean what's just along the edge of the river, so how could a garden be below it? I think that phrase needs to be clarified or re-worded. The third sentence is all right. The fourth sentence is all right, although the reader must connect "it" with "the garden", which is now several sentences back. The rest is all right until the eighth sentence, where, again, we read "the river front". What does that mean, and does it mean the same thing as in the second sentence? Apparently this "river front" has windows. Needs some clarifying. Well, that's all. Corinne (talk) 02:07, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for being so thorough. Unfortunately I have been and still will be rather busy, but I'll fully reply over the weekend, if not earlier. My username, M with hook is used in IPA and APA, the article provides good detail for linguists, though apparently its usage is very minimal. You could copy and paste the character, or just use the letter M as you did, that works too. I'll address the comments relative to the article when I have more time soon. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 08:03, 7 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Okay, so I edited the second sentence of the name section per your advice, however you said "there is nothing to explain how "Slapershaven", or even "Sleepers' Haven", became "Sleepy Hollow", and support the initial statement that "the club is named after its location in the river valley". There is nothing to explain it because there's no explanation anywhere. It's all reliably sourced, however I have yet to find anything that explains why Slapershaven was changed to Sleepy Hollow or why the club was named after its location (though that's not uncommon).
 * In the third sentence, "contemporarily" should be clear. I'm not sure which form of English you use or studied, but I'm familiar with the predominant American usage to mean "in modern times" or "in the present". Regardless, I was trying to state that the name Sleepy Hollow, as a geographic term, only refers to the village, and no longer refers to any of the outlying area. I edited the sentence, see if that's clearer.
 * In the Architecture section, I fixed the sentence to hopefully make more sense.
 * The Interior section does have a lot of detail, but it's all text that I thought was important to really get a picture of the style, details, and elegance of the house. You said it would help to find pictures, and well, I have a lot of those. Look at the club's Commons category, I took many photos of the interior recently, plus I've found a great many old photographs of the house and added them to Commons. I wonder though where you'd think it would be good to include those photos, as there are really almost too many photos in this article, and not much space left without making it seem overloaded? One thing to consider - I could separate the article into one about the club and its history and various buildings, and a separate article on the historic house and its architecture and interior.
 * I edited the paragraph about the garden; that should now be clearer. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 18:09, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * M, your revisions all sound fine and are well written. Just two points:


 * 1) You removed "in" in a comparison, in, and think it is needed. Otherwise, you are comparing the servants wing in this house with other houses, instead of the service wing in this house and the servants wing in other houses.


 * 2) Regarding "contemporarily", first, I think you'll agree it is an uncommon word; it's not used very often. Second, if you look at contemporary, the first meaning is [something like] "occurring at the same time". That could mean occurring at the same time as something else in the past, the present, or the future. The second and third meanings are closer to your definition: "occurring in the present". Usually, the first definition of a word is the more common one, and that is the definition I was thinking of. So, if it can mean "occurring at the same time", even in the past, and you don't give an indication of the time, the sentence can be confusing. If you really want to convey "occurring in the present", then I would use something like "today".


 * Here is the sentence as it is now:


 * In the present day, "Sleepy Hollow" geographically refers only to the incorporated village of Sleepy Hollow, however.


 * I would substitute "today" for "in the present day", which I think is a little stilted, or stuffy. Second, I would change "geographically" to "as a geographic term" (to distinguish it from a name of a club, for example), and I don't think "however" is needed. I think the contrast in time is enough. Finally, I don't think you have to repeat "Sleepy Hollow" since you already mentioned the village. So it would read:


 * Today, as a geographic term, "Sleepy Hollow" refers only to the incorporated village. Corinne (talk) 20:18, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you. I made your changes to that sentence. As for removing "in", please see paragraph 2, page 359, here link. That was the source I cited. As you can see, "larger than most houses" is what is supported by the article. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 20:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see. The writer was making the point that the service wing in this house is larger than most houses, i.e., very large. I hadn't understood that before. I'm wondering whether we ought not to make it a little clearer by adding a few words:


 * At the north end of the house, situated farthest from the main entrance, and of a size larger than most houses, is the service wing, which contains the servant quarters.


 * I'm also wondering whether we couldn't make the information about where the service wing is in relation to the rest of the house a little more concise:


 * Situated at the opposite end of the house from the main entrance,...


 * or (since you have already said that the main entrance is on the south side of the house):


 * Situated farthest from the main entrance,...


 * – Corinne (talk) 20:54, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The more concise options have the reader doing work to figure out if by farthest from the main entrance that I mean on the north side. Otherwise I could omit the part about the main entrance, though it's something I do want to note, as the house's design speaks to the time by having the main entrance as far away from the servant quarters as possible. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 00:01, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

I understand. I see you made the change. Upon looking at it, I'm now wondering whether it should be "in size" rather than "of a size". Both are grammatically correct; it's a stylistic choice. I've posted a question on my talk page at User talk:Corinne (so my fellow copy-editors will see it) if you want to see any responses, and of course your opinion is welcome, too. What do you think? (I wrote that comment before I read your comment just above.) Corinne (talk) 04:17, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I prefer the wording of "of a size", I think it flows better. Anyway, thanks for your help with this article, much appreciated. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 04:48, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day 15th Birthday Bash NYC
I'm sure you got the invite, but in case not, we've got a big Saturday ahead of us! Hope to see you there. Best &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  03:18, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Also I hope you don't mind me adjusting the CSS on your userpage :) The text was cut-off, so I just used padding and removed the absolute positioning on the right element. Cheers &mdash; MusikAnimal  talk  03:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Conyers Farm
Thanks for your fixes on this article. It's sort of a weird situation, but I got a "thanks" notification for an edit on the article. When I looked at the edit that I was being thanked for, I noticed a grammar error ("fell into the disrepair" rather than "fell into disrepair"). I must have been editing an old version of the page without realizing it, so when I took out the word "the", I also undid the subsequent edits that had all of those refs and conversion templates. I couldn't figure out how the article had gotten so messy when I just intended to remove one extra word, but at any rate, I appreciate you paying attention and correcting my issue. EricEnfermero (Talk) 09:07, 1 February 2016 (UTC)

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Perth Theatre page
Hello,

I hope I'm replying in the correct way to the message you sent about the information you have removed from the Perth Theatre page - I'm new to wiki, so not quite sure how it all works yet!

You mentioned in your message that the information posted was promotional in content. Perth Theatre is currently closed and as such no commercial gain will be made from the information posted - you will also note that with the exception of some information about Perth Youth Theatre the information posted is predominantly historic in nature. We are a team of community volunteers researching the history of Perth Theatre and were pointed in the direction of Wikipedia as a good way to share information about the history and heritage of Perth Theatre. We based the content on some other theatre's Wikipedia pages e.g. the Citizen's Theatre, Glasgow, who again we believe are trying to share their heritage rather than promote their current programme.

We would appreciate any guidance that you can give on referencing/citation and would ask that you reinstate the information we posted.

Many thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by PTRRRP1517 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for writing back! I'll be glad to help you out here. I'm sorry for commercial assumptions, it's just that it's clear Perth Theatre is reopening very soon, and thus this content, and published at this time, raised my suspicions. I'm glad you all want to improve the history content of the article; I am as much a historian as I am a Wikipedian. I'll soon reply further with comments on what you have written, and how to revise it to match Wikipedia's style of writing. Thanks again, ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 01:08, 6 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Okay, regarding your edits:
 * For starters, if you want to change dates in an article, it would help to add a reference to be clear. Some of the dates you changed already have citations, making the content contradict the citations used.
 * The history section should consist of facts, and if necessary, small quotes (one or two sentences). Any large quotes can be incorporated, if necessary, in quote boxes to the side of the page. The history section also makes use of promotional words, like "terrific", "beyond", "brilliant", and "countless"; these do not convey the neutral point of view that the/a encyclopedia tries to achieve. As well, unclear terms like "it was decided" and the use of exclamation points isn't very encyclopedic.
 * Virtually none of the history section has citations/references. These are very important for people to trace where you found your information. Most history articles have a citation after every sentence or factoid, but if one source is thorough and accurate enough, that one reference can be used for a larger body of text, e.g. a paragraph or section.
 * The alumni list should not be exhaustive. As well, the list should briefly describe their role (e.g. "director Quentin Tarantino") and include links to the people's Wikipedia articles.
 * The references you do list are very incomplete, making it difficult for others to find those references, i.e. in a library or online. Please try to include as much information as you can about a reference. For example, if citing a news article, list the article title, author, newspaper, editor, publisher, city of publication, date printed, and date accessed, as well as an online link if available. If citing a book, it's helpful to give the author, title, publisher, city, date printed, edition, ISBN, OCLC, and perhaps also the Google Books page for the book.
 * I hope this helps, but let me also direct you to the Teahouse, where trained people will be very friendly and helpful in helping you edit here. Thanks for your help so far! ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 04:57, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Temperatures Rising
Thanks for the congrats on Temperatures Rising. Now if I could only convince the bigwigs at Sony Entertainment to release the series on DVD.

Trivia note for you: Of the newspaper articles I cited several state that actress Nancy Fox was discovered when William Asher, the show's producer, spotted her in a toothpaste commercial. However, Nancy told me in a telephone conversation that it was Asher's wife, Elizabeth Montgomery, who spotted her in the commercial and then informed Asher about her. Jimknut (talk) 23:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

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Quid pro quo on FA
Sounds like a good deal to me. I will review your article tonight or tomorrow. Thanks  MPJ  -US 01:44, 11 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I just want to let you know that I have not forgotten the FAC review I started as part of our Quid Pro Quo exchange, hopefully you will have time to review CMLL World Heavyweight Championship too? MPJ  -US 00:30, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Category:French words and phrases
The title of this category is somewhat misleading as to its actual purpose - I originally misunderstood its purpose as well. The category is actually "for articles about the words themselves", for example Militant (word) or Craic. See the box at the top of. Alcherin (talk) 22:17, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

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Hudson River
Nice to hear from you again. I decided to do some work on the history section of the article. Due to schoolwork, I was only able to get through the canal era subsection. I have no problem with you making edits to the article in the slightest. You are right that the history section still needs expansion. I do have a basic format in mind, as well as some ideas for the history section (ex: West Point chain link during the Revolutionary War, as well as the river's importance for the British strategy of cutting off New England from the rest of the colonies). I am not sure how much I will be able to work on this article, but definitely during my Spring Break in a few weeks I will be able to do a good amount of work. For now, edits here and there work just fine. Again, glad to hear from you. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 04:31, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I really appreciate it. I had seen that there's a lot that can be written about the river's history, probably enough for a separate article. It may be too much information to sort through, and I'm glad you're starting this endeavor. I've been caught up between school, work, and GA/FA reviews but I look forward to more writing here soon. Good to hear from you too! ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 04:52, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Tons of work with me too. History of the Hudson River could be a large article, although we already have History of the Hudson Valley (though that does not cover the whole length of the river). My thinking is that we write the history section to the best of our ability, pretty much putting in all relevant information. Afterwards, we can decide if we want to create a subarticle and consolidate the history section in the main article. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that History of the Hudson Valley does not exist. I don't know why I thought that it did. I may take some text from the current Hudson Valley article history section and plop it into the river article. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:11, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of overlap between the Valley and River, especially their histories. However, let's please try to keep them on separate articles, and really have as little crossover as possible (only what's necessary) and we can link to the other article as needed. I think history articles can and should be made for both entities; there's more than enough available content. Also, sometimes I forget the river transverses the Capital District and NYC, neither of which are in the Hudson Valley. That important distinction really makes me want to separate facts between the river and valley articles. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 05:18, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * That is true that the river is not just the valley. It is really only the colonial and art sections that would have similar content, such as the Hudson River Art movement. That would be included in the article, but not be the whole subsection, only a part. Discussion of the Port of NY could warrant some discussion, as well as battles such as the Battle of Saratoga and the retreat from the Battle of Long Island. Discussions of infrastructure using the river could also be discussed. In short, there is really a lot of work to include. I will write my own text on the Hudson River Art movement and colonization (the colonization section is relatively small anyway). I guess we will see how large the History section gets. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:33, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
 * As a sidenote, there is a move proposal for New NY Bridge that I added. It refers to the New Tappan Zee Bridge. I thought you may be interested in checking it out. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 06:04, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

WikiProject Wales/Awaken the Dragon
Hi, can I interest you and page stalkers in participating in April? Up to £200 in Amazon vouchers and books up for grabs.♦ Dr. Blofeld  13:16, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

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Custom sig
Hi, I was replying to your post at WT:WCAG, and I noticed your custom sig might be missing some quotation marks. What I see is:  Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 05:27, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see that, but where would I add quotation marks to fix the markup? ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 01:14, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
 * might give better results? Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 14:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

CSC?
Saw it, but can't see anything that might support this. Everything I read suggests the opposite. Is there a specific part you're seeing that I'm not? InedibleHulk (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * "Red-linked entries are acceptable if the entry is verifiably a member of the listed group, and it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future." ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 20:17, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, getting closer. Can you verify he's a resident, and reasonably expect an article about him to ever exist? Even his entire band is headed for deletion, and nothing they've made has an article either. Doesn't look hopeful. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)


 * If you have a problem with New Radiant Storm King's notability, you should first submit an AfD (which I might support), not remove links to it. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 20:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The link removal was only incidental to removing the non-notable frontman, who will never have an article. It wouldn't make sense to leave the band link. But yeah, I might nominate it for deletion soon enough. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:25, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

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FAC
Hey, I "stalk" PM67's talk page (since we edit the same area of WP) and noticed you needed a hand with your FAC. I'd be more than willing to provide input quid pro quo since I know how difficult it can be to get one's article noticed let alone get the required supports. I have an article titled Ivo Andrić up for GA and its been up for many, many months. Would you mind? 23 editor (talk) 21:35, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Totally understandable, thanks so much. No problem. I'll start on it tomorrow or the next day, feel free to review as soon as you can. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 23:38, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I'll get it to it tomorrow. Best, 23 editor (talk) 00:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

Car numbers
Where does the article mention the specific car numbers that Ferguson was on? I didn't see it. Daniel Case (talk) 06:17, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Here. ɱ  (talk · vbm  · coi) 16:56, 6 May 2016 (UTC)
 * While I think it's encyclopedic that the cars were renumbered afterwards, I think the actual numbers themselves are too trivial for an article (as with their possible retirement date). Likewise with this case ... if Metro-North decides to reuse the cars and renumber them, it should be noted, but the numbers aren't a notable aspect of the accident. Consider that for a long time we had a List of Shoreliner cars devoted to the named cars in use along Metro-North lines east of the Hudson. If you can look at the AfD for that, you'll see that consensus was that it did not meet notability standards. If the names of cars aren't in and of themselves notable, I don't think the numbers are. Daniel Case (talk) 17:16, 6 May 2016 (UTC)

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Library
The article is currently 1720 words; I think you need to trim it by about a third to make it readable and interesting to non local human beings. I would be more than happy to help you with that task, and I think you then might have a shot at FAC. Ceoil (talk) 22:52, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Perth Theatre
In late January you warned a user about promo editing. Up to April they made more edits which also seem promotional. Would a restoration of the page to a cleaner version be in order? &mdash;George8211 / T 18:19, 23 May 2016 (UTC)

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