User talk:108.248.10.84

Hi! Could please stop editing the same section on "Ludwig von Mises". Please be a gadfly elsewhere. It is obvious you and the other user are not trying to build a wiki. Wikipedia wants to have a N-POV (Neutral Point of View).

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In your view, is a "Neutral Point of View" on a controversial person like Mises best served by allowing a user with the screenname "BasedMises" to constantly monitor the page non-stop & flag content they don't personally like and pretend as though they have no personal bias?

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I certainly have a personal bias, but I am not spreading it. If anyone writes on, say, Noam Chomsky's article that he has praised x leader and thus "does not necessarily oppose x", I would revert it. I understand it is a potential conflict of interest, but I am most certainly trying to be objective, which is why I am not praising or overly protecting him; if I was, I would've deleted the whole section. However, the consensus on the talk page has been that the section is needed, but does not need to be expanded with original research and non-factual opinions. Have a nice day. F. A. Hayek 15:30, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

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The information on the Mises article about fascism now isn't "original research", every single quote is linked to sources both from the Mises Institute & from published & credible historical information. You definitely are "overly protecting" him if you can't stand to see the facts written out as they are right now. As it stands right now, there are no "opinions", it's mostly just Mises' own writing as well as that of his proteges & fellow travelers.

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This is not just my opinion- those on the talk page have been on my side since the start- please be a gadfly elsewhere. The paragraph also contradicts itself and is not very well written. The entirety of the quote which I do believe merits the section does not say fascism is beneficial- merely that to view it as anything more than an emergency makeshift is a mistake. However, it is still important that the paragraph exists. F. A. Hayek 22:32, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

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Of course it's just your opinion. "Those on the talk page"? And who are they? We know you have a personal bias, you just admitted it. Sounds like you have a far right-wing bias & don't want actual facts about Mises' fascism to be widely distributed. Your snide & cynical "Happy May Day" yesterday was cute too, but I can tell that you are being disingenuous here simply from your insistence on deleting the published credible information over & over. The Mises Institute is also guilty of this, even criticizing Hulsmann's publishing of that information regarding Mises' membership cards of the Austrofascist party from the Grove City archives. Mises was a fascist, that fact alone (and it's a fact, not an opinion) undermines all other attempts before & after by Mises and his acolytes to downplay or obscure it.

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Excuse me. We were having an actual conversation that was going along quite well, until the ad hominems. Please refrain from using such poor language on such a formal place to discuss. I do not have this "far (not just right-wing) right-wing bias". Please explain why this change, which literally says "Mises was incorrect" on a political topic (ie completely subjective). I dislike the Mises Institute intently. I would ask that you rewrite your statement to the proper terms used in an encyclopedia. I understand you might get agitated, but outside of established facts (eg. Holocaust happened, the Great Leap Forward killed 55 million people, calling creationism pseudo-science, etc), Wikipedia cannot add subjective opinions. The section may even deserve more- but please, please, make it WP-NOR and WP-NPOV. Again, I understand you are agitated, but edit it so it is N-POV and WP-NOR, and please refrain from using ad hominem. Also enough with the blatant landphobia towards heckin' valid PoL. F. A. Hayek 23:44, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

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Now you're crying "ad hominem", rofl? Please try to actually hide or add nuance to your blatant biases & overly generous excuses made for Mises' fascism. I don't care if you "dislike the Mises Institute", it's literally Rothbard's continuation of Mises' cult of personality. I would ask that you please try to see the entire picture Mises' pro-fascist & anti-communist role as a pawn used by the reactionary right & the apologists of capitalism who need his "legitimacy" to try and academically justify anti-communism. Yes, the Holocaust happened and Soviet Ukrainian Jewish officers liberated Auschwitz. Soviets ended the Holocaust & destroyed the Nazis. Great Leap Forward succeeded at ending nearly annual famines in China that persisted for eons. Only after Great Leap Forward did famines in China cease. Then in the late 1970s & early 1980s, the "reform & opening" period completely revised history & demonized Mao in order to reverse the gains of collectivization. I advise you to please educate yourself on these matters. And again, you're the one who is agitated if you feel the need to constantly lurk on Mises' page just to prevent full disclosure of his fascist past.

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I will concede, your little ironic spiel about how the USSR was the best thing ever. However, please refrain from the ironic pseudohistory that killed many of my parents (I'm Russian, you know). Unfortunately, I am not "crying" ad hominem. Again, I understand you are agitated because I am reverting your edits. However, please refrain from calling me a "far-righter" when I am not. I would recommend, in order to make your arguments significantly better, that you stop using personal attacks. F. A. Hayek 00:18, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

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You conceded, cool. Also, it's not ironic, but that's because USSR did defeat the Nazis & ended the Holocaust. So what if you're Russian? You know that Vlasov was Russian too right? Plenty of Russians collaborated with the Nazis. Again, I understand that you have nothing to add & only want to make Mises seem like he wasn't a fascist, but the facts completely undermine your position. Stop hiding your candle under a bushel too lol, there is no such thing as the "authoritarian vs. libertarian" axis. You're either for progress or against it, pretty simple. "Classical liberals" are against progress. So you're still unwilling to reveal your right-wing bias in so many words. That doesn't quite cut it though. It isn't an "attack" to call someone right-wing by the way.

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I am aware of the USSR's colossal role in determining the worst kind of collectivism: Nazism. In Russia (and most of Eastern Europe) we have a massive celebration of this called Victory Day (in western Europe they refer to it as "VE Day"). However, the amount of crimes committed by the Soviets is astounding, even if they were the "lesser of two evils". Links: http://ewjus.com/index.php/ewjus/article/view/Naimark https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953615002294?casa_token=WgorBEeuFgQAAAAA:dYoM_0AgyV5Q5vwNEtxyyglrYVKrb_Ri0LSIe7uNkYUafif9vtg3C124MmH833V8XDDlcNKcWA https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=86294 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0022009406058676 Also, enough with the blatant landphobia towards heckin' valid PoL or Landchads. Please note, my biases are on my user page. I am not a "far right winger", in the same way, that you are not understanding that yesterday was (as of MST, not universal time) victims of communism day.

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There's no such thing as "collectivism" apart from what already exists in society lol, it's merely determined by the extent to which the powerful minority of property owning interests are allowed to have dictatorship over the masses. In Russia, there should be a Victory celebration, not least because it was a victory over idiots like Mises who advocated for the other side, even tacitly, throughout their careers. Soviets were not "lesser of two evils", America literally co-opted & took on the Nazi project against the Soviets. America & Nazis had far more in common & private enterprise was protected by Nazis. Naimark is an idiot. Links: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/3223834/Stalin-planned-to-send-a-million-troops-to-stop-Hitler-if-Britain-and-France-agreed-pact.html https://www.jstor.org/stable/1945351 https://store.mises.org/Selected-Writings-of-LVM-vol-2-Between-the-Two-World-Wars-P163.aspx F. Kapelush, “‘Anti-Marxism’: Professor Mises as a Theorist of Fascism,” http://www.unkochmycampus.org/los-ch2-part-4-the-ideas-austrian-economics-aka-classical-liberalism-a-gateway-to-extremism Also, your blatant bias toward the dictatorship of private employment & private ownership definitely isn't lost on anyone familiar with the fascism & rabid anti-communism that flies under so many types of "sheep's clothing". Yes, you are a "right-winger" if you accept an idiotic false dichotomy of "libertarian vs. authoritarian" axis lol. You're right-wing, it's obvious. The only "victims of communism" were the Nazis. Obvious you support them if you cry crocodile tears over them

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Sorry I'm just looking through the book with various Soviet soldiers that got a specific medal oh wait. It says my grandpa! What else? Oh sorry, today is the anniversary in which my grandpa's relatives were killed by the nazis while they were above Germany. Please take your blatant pro-fascism and landphobia towards heckin' valid PoL elsewhere. Communists are fascists, but slightly less dangerous. I don't need to hear about this. Nazis were not "victims of communism". They are on the same level as communists. They even invaded Poland together (pls don't bring up appeasement; its one thing to invade a country another to try to avoid a war) because they were buddies. Anyways, please, grow up, become very nice teenager in Fort Worth Texas, and abandon the pseudo-history and BLATANT landphobia towards PoL. Also, Nazis, I don't like them. I've made that clear. Hey, at least I'm not a genocide denier.

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Oh cool, your grandpa fought fascism more than you've chosen to do, oh well. He might not be so proud knowing you spend your days defending a fascist like Mises lol. Yes, Nazis were victims of communism. Communists defeated the Nazis. And no, Nazis invaded Poland weeks before USSR moved to protected its ethnic majority populations of Ukrainians & Belarusian "Kresy" areas. You know that the parafascist Pilsudski stole those areas in 1920 right?

Also, your links about Katyn & Holodomor have been completely debunked lol. Even in 1945, the world knew that Nazis killed those Polish officers. https://www.nytimes.com/1945/06/29/archives/katyn-graves-story-declared-grim-fraud.html

"People of Land" are not valid & fascism is what people with property choose over allowing workers' uprising.

Additionally, The "Holodomor" is literally Nazi propaganda

https://www.jta.org/1941/06/29/archive/40000-ukrainians-plan-to-enter-ukraine-to-fight-jews-and-communists

Ukrainians collaborated with the SS & helped perpetrate the Holocaust

Literally, the "Holodomor" lies about "famine-genocide" emerge in Nazi propaganda in 1933

https://books.google.com/books?id=5wkJi1jvL3UC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA42#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false

Those photos printed in the 1933 edition of "Volkischer Beobachter" Nazi party propaganda organ were literally taken in early 1920s in Russia during the imperialist invasion, not in the 1930s in Ukraine... then the same misattributed & falsified photos were recycled by Ukrainian ultranationalist diaspora groups in Canada& elsewhere in the 1980s

There was a famine, but the reality of its circumstances and causes have been completely revised by the Ukrainian ultranationalist memorial & historiographical project.

Ukrainian national memory projects ever since have been geared toward denying their own distinct Ukrainian role in the Holocaust. In this way, "Holodomor" narrative is Holocaust denial for Ukrainians today

https://books.google.com/books?id=3OrVDAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA132&amp;lpg=PA132&amp;dq=%22in+contrast+to+its+silence+about+and+failure+to+remember+the+holocaust%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=fLN1mUiDsA&amp;sig=ACfU3U3Jp0vx8SHf633RinLFOen0SGIHOA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwi4xunkrrLtAhUB1qwKHdHyAf4Q6AEwAHoECAEQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=%22in%20contrast%20to%20its%20silence%20about%20and%20failure%20to%20remember%20the%20holocaust%22&amp;f=false

this is typical of the rabid anti-communism & reaction of the West ever since the early 20th century & late 19th century

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lmao "moved to protect their ethnic minority populations" I can't. I'm sorry. I understand that you really really want to be a slav (like really). However, please, get out, get some fresh air, do some reading of authors who aren't blatant fascists like Grover Furr. Anyways, LANDLORD LIVES MATTER. Also, "far right wing" is not neoliberalism. You are more right wing than I am because you accept the Fascist government of the USSR.

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Yes, those "Kresy" areas were majority Ukrainian & Belarusian ethnic populations https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Poland1937linguistic.jpg

Pilsudski had "lebensraum" aims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheism

And Poles were doing ethnic cleansing there because they never had functional control over those regions in the modern era https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

So if there are obviously non-Pole majorities in those areas, and Ukrainian fascists are committing assassinations all through the 1930s in those Eastern Second Polish Republic areas, then yes, they aren't Polish areas in any historic or functional sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Bronis%C5%82aw_Pieracki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Ho%C5%82%C3%B3wko

Lol, so hilarious that you're afraid of someone like Grover Furr. But again, I didn't cite Furr once. You have nothing by the way

USSR government was anti-Fascist always. Hence why USSR defeated the fascists

Yes, far-right wing is neoliberalism. Those right-wingers in the Austrian School & Mont Pelerin cult were the ones advocating for this retrenchment of big capital against socialism.

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Based Mont Perelin society and Austrian school. Showing those landphobic fascists whose boss.

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Austrian school dumbasses & Mont Pelerin idiots. No such thing as "landphobia", and Mao proved that landlords weren't necessary HAHHA

Landlords & capitalists are fascists always

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Fully agreed. Everyone is a fascist (capitalist, socialist, fascist, nazi, libertarian, conservative, communist). Exactly! Landlords aren't necessary in the same way that intelligence is not needed to be a communist

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No, only anti-communists & hypercapitalists are fascists. That's literally the only requirement. Communists are anti-fascist

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Guess that makes sense. Hypercapitalists as we know are the ones who are campaigning for authoritarianism, regimentation of the economy, suppression of minority groups, and ethnic cleansing. Anti-communists are fascists because they oppose the system of communism, which is not authoritarian at all (definitely not, didn't even inspire 1984!), was for free markets (ie not the regimentation of the economy), and is 100% pro ethnic cleansing (because they support the notion of soviet genocides). Thank you for your excellent talk on this. Really, quite sad for a communist when 65mn of your own died under fascist dictators like Stalin.

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Hypercapitalists are authoritarian, which is to say that "classical liberals" are the fascists you seek. You do know that Nazis coined the term "privatization" and were the first to implement the policy of turning formerly state-owned industries over to private profit-making? Anti-communists are fascists because fascism is the formalizing & mobilization of anti-communist sentiment from the middle classes. Communism doesn't ethnic cleanse anyone, and there are no Soviet genocide. Soviets ended genocide. Thanks for the fact that there's no proof that communists killed 65 million, but there is proof that capitalism killed at least 100 million in the 20th century.

Stalin was anti-fascist

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"No Proof" lmao. Instead of taking the actual good position, which would be to use the decades of CIA coverups etc to argue that the US is making all of the atrocities up, you just say "no proof" I guess its hard to have proof when you are a historical Denialist/negationist.

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Which atrocities? You still don't have any evidence lol. Though we do know of the atrocities committed by the CIA & their Nazi founders & fascist "WACL" & "ABN" agents

Katyn Massacre (pls don't cite Grover Furr, who is literally NOT a historian because he didn't take history) Holodomor Soviet Rape of Berlin (which is often exaggerated, and is in some ways justifiable, based on the horrors fellow Russians faced, but still fairly inexcusable) Decossackization Great Leap Forward Great Purge 5 year plan Gulag work camps

"Though communism has killed huge numbers of people intentionally, even more of its victims have died from starvation as a result of its cruel projects of social engineering." https://sites.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/asreview.htm Now, to be fair, the Black Book of Communism did exaggerate the kill count, what you are doing is blatantly lying to my face about fallen persons.

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I know you don't engage with evidence, but we have all the evidence we need to disprove each and every one of your assumptions on these matters, even if you don't accept the facts of history.

Katyn was known even in 1945 to be a lie made up by the Nazis at a time when they were losing after the failure of Barbarossa. We know that the Polish officers were murdered by Nazis & buried at Katyn as a "false flag" to blame the Soviets erroneously.

https://www.nytimes.com/1945/06/29/archives/katyn-graves-story-declared-grim-fraud.html

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4202897?seq=1

Here is the anti-USSR Ukrainian ultranationalist Isaak Mazepa writing in a respected Western Journal in 1933-34

"The opposition of the Ukrainian population caused the failure of the grain-storing plan of 1931, and still more so, that of 1932.” He boasts of the success of the “passive resistance which aimed at a systematic frustration of the Bolshevik plans for the sowing and gathering of the harvest... Whole tracts were left unsown,” and “in addition, when the crop was being gathered last year [1932], it happened that, in many areas, especially in the south, 20, 40 and even 50% was left in the fields, and was either not collected at all or was ruined in the threshing.”

Mazepa is literally cheering the efforts of the Kulaks to destroy food & infiltrate collectives & destabilize USSR... he was a respected Ukrainian nationalist politician & published academic & agronomist and definitely has more perspective & expertise on this subject than either of us

it wasn't Stalin, because Stalin actually sent aid to these regions immediately

"On April 6, Sholokhov, who lived in Veshenskii district, wrote at length to Stalin describing the famine conditions and urging him to provide grain. Stalin received the letter on April 15, and on April 16 the Politburo granted 700 tons of grain to the district. Stalin sent a telegram to Sholokhov ‘We will do everything required. Inform size of necessary help. State a figure.’ Sholokhov replied on the same day, and on April 22, the day on which Stalin received the second letter, the Politburo agreed his claim in full. Stalin wrote to him, ‘You should have sent answer not by letter but by telegram. Time was wasted.’ In a further letter to Sholokhov, Stalin chided him for his one-sided failure to realise that ‘the respected grain-growers of your district (and not only your district) have carried out a “go-slow” (sabotage!), and would have been willing to leave the workers and the Red Army without bread’." (Years of Hunger, pg. 217, Wheatcroft & Davies)

1930 was just two years after collectivization started for instance, and in just those short 2 years collectives produced 3x as much grains as kulaks had in 1928. And almost double the pre-WWI amount.

Collectivization also increased the number of tractors and overall productive volume of all kinds of produce and grains.

Stalin actually reduced the grain quotas and requistions and immediately sent grain aid & food outreach & mobilized healthcare in an attempt to stem the worst effects of the shortages

The "Holodomor" is literally Nazi propaganda

https://www.jta.org/1941/06/29/archive/40000-ukrainians-plan-to-enter-ukraine-to-fight-jews-and-communists

Ukrainians collaborated with the SS & helped perpetrate the Holocaust

Literally, the "Holodomor" lies about "famine-genocide" emerge in Nazi propaganda in 1933

https://books.google.com/books?id=5wkJi1jvL3UC&amp;lpg=PP1&amp;pg=PA42#v=onepage&amp;q&amp;f=false

Those photos printed in the 1933 edition of "Volkischer Beobachter" Nazi party propaganda organ were literally taken in early 1920s in Russia during the imperialist invasion, not in the 1930s in Ukraine... then the same misattributed & falsified photos were recycled by Ukrainian ultranationalist diaspora groups in Canada& elsewhere in the 1980s

There was a famine, but the reality of its circumstances and causes have been completely revised by the Ukrainian ultranationalist memorial & historiographical project.

Ukrainian national memory projects ever since have been geared toward denying their own distinct Ukrainian role in the Holocaust. In this way, "Holodomor" narrative is Holocaust denial for Ukrainians today

https://books.google.com/books?id=3OrVDAAAQBAJ&amp;pg=PA132&amp;lpg=PA132&amp;dq=%22in+contrast+to+its+silence+about+and+failure+to+remember+the+holocaust%22&amp;source=bl&amp;ots=fLN1mUiDsA&amp;sig=ACfU3U3Jp0vx8SHf633RinLFOen0SGIHOA&amp;hl=en&amp;sa=X&amp;ved=2ahUKEwi4xunkrrLtAhUB1qwKHdHyAf4Q6AEwAHoECAEQAg#v=onepage&amp;q=%22in%20contrast%20to%20its%20silence%20about%20and%20failure%20to%20remember%20the%20holocaust%22&amp;f=false

this is typical of the rabid anti-communism & reaction of the West ever since the early 20th century & late 19th century

There was nothing about the Soviet actions in the movement Westward toward Berlin that was out of step from most other armies throughout time. Do we want to account for the rapes committed by Nazis & Einsatzgruppen during the Barbarossa invasion?

Do you want to account for the allies raping hundreds of thousands? Americans & Canadians & British all raped many women during the war.

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/allied-soldiers-including-canadians-raped-thousands-of-german-women-after-second-world-war-research

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/germany-shines-light-rape-allied-troops-who-defeated-nazis-n363136

“I have to inform you, sir, that I have received formal orders to hand over the Cossack Division in its entirety to the Soviet authorities. I regret having to tell you that, but it is an order. Good day!”

You knew that Cossacks collaborated extensively with Nazis right?

Decossackization was needed in order to advance productive forces & end those feudalistic social relations

There is not a mountain of evidence of Great Leap Forward doing anything other than ending famine in PRC

No famines or food shortages have occurred since Great Leap Forward advanced the agriculture & productive capacity in China

If China was losing more people to PRC than they lost in Civil War & WWII combined, then there would be mass revolt and instability. You didn't even get the number of dead correct, you literally said 40+ million, and Deng said not even half that died, and even Deng's numbers are grossly exaggerated

So what's the truth if believe 10s of millions died but Deng said not even 20 million died? I know the truth is not larger than Deng's gross overexaggeration, so I already know that you're wrong

And no, there was no "archived information" made public, these numbers were invented & "deduced" by problematic and incorrect "estimates" based on records that were never kept

https://web.archive.org/web/20180726184927/https://monthlyreview.org/commentary/did-mao-really-kill-millions-in-the-great-leap-forward/

If you're talking about people like Trotsky & Bukharin, they literally betrayed USSR & sought helped against the Soviet people from Nazi Germany & fascist Japan

They were not communists who were purged in the 1930s, they were anti-communist wreckers & opportunists & deviationists

5 year plans worked, so that's not really an atrocity.

Gulags paid minimum wage and allowed care packages & conjugal visits & prisoners were released back into society with their full rights. America's prisons today by comparison to USSR are racist concentration camps

USSR is not to be equated at all with the Nazis. USSR defeated the Nazis

No one was worked or starved to death except by the Nazis.

No, what was going on where your family lived is that fascists rounded up Jews & Romani & communists and executed them or sent them to concentration camps run by far-right Nazis

Stalin saved 100s of millions from the ruination of fascism. Stalin was known for his great impact & positive legacy

Even the CIA said that gulags paid minimum wage & had guaranteed rations and that conditions improved over time

https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf

Anything else?

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First of all, please give me actual sources. Secondly, provide me any justification for why Rokkosovsky, or Tukhachevsky deserved to either be tortured or murdered. Oh sorry, forgot. They deserved it because they dare question the mighty emperor Stalin.

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I gave you plenty of sources. Can you not read? Tukhachevsky admitted to his guilt, and Rokossovsky wasn't killed, he lived a long life. Tukhachevsky was guilty though, remember these were crimes that were being committed. Treason is a crime punishable by death in most countries lol, I don't know why this is news to you.

Stalin also wasn't an "emperor", and he was re-elected multiple times even after trying to step down. But the people loved Stalin too much & still do in many former Soviet areas.

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Firstly: you can't critique boomers being nostalgic for the 50s Secondly: he confessed while being tortured. I shouldn't have to respond to this point.

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I am not critiquing them, they're right. Stalin was a hero, and was correct in saying that garbage would be heaped on his grave & lies spread about him, but in time the world would see how right Stalin was.

Tukhachevsky wasn't tortured.

April 2021
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