User talk:172/Talk block 10

Congo Free State
I went through and made some slight changes. Nothing drastic. I think the article is making progress, but still needs work. We should get some other opinions besides mine. I made specific comments on the talk page for Congo Free State. Sincerely, Kingturtle 10:50, 21 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Wik vs the German nationalists and the "Fox News crowd"
I don't know whether you want to add anything to Matter of Wik evidence - its very one sided as it stands. Anyone he's ever NPOVed is baying for his blood. Secretlondon 13:59, Feb 22, 2004 (UTC)

I noticed. But not for the lack of effort on your part, which was basically ignored as soon as the article was unprotected. I was impressed by your magnanimity and patience in trying to find a mutually acceptable solution and was sorry to see, but not entirely surprised, that it was in vain. Given that this has been going on for more than a year there can only be one word to describe this kind of behaviour: obsessive. I suppose we can give the votes a try, although I wonder how binding the first would be, given that there is no precedent for "freezing" an article, and without the second vote banning the current participants, it may not have much effect. I have to confess too that I would have difficulty voting to "ban" you from the article; you, IMO, are not the problem. But never mind, it is worth a try, given that the mediation process hasn't seem to come together yet, and it might set a useful precedent for dealing with other issues. I am concious of your warning against trying to centralize decision-making here too much, though I wonder at the wisdom of permitting users free rein here who appear congenitally incapable of adapting to collaborative editing conventions. Lack of hierarchy and minimal authority can only flourish with a measure of individual responsibility I would have thought. -- Viajero 12:39, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * PS: Never thought I'd live to see the day:

I'm not sure it will do any good. He seems to be trying to recuse himself from such things lately and will probably suggest you go through the dispute resolution process, but that could lead a lot more trouble than it's worth. Angela. 02:02, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Hello 172,

I noticed you asked GMan about my 'Ah, Fascism is Alive and Well!' paragraph. If you check the history of his talk page, you'll find my request that he revert some changes he made to the BNP article which were totally undemocratic. Democracy cuts both ways, so I believe everyone has the right to add content to articles, even if people (like GMan) disagree with them. That's freedom of speech; a freedom I wish all people would fundamentally agree with, although I doubt they ever will! You can see the changes GMan made to the BNP article by looking at the history page. The things he removed have been there for a long time. I believe that as the article in question doesn't get updated much anymore, GMan thought nobody was watching and he could just tailor some of it to his point of view. His comment - 'remove c++p' - clearly shows his attitude. GMan simply deleted my request to him with a 'remove rant' comment. That is very poor show and very immature in my opinion. I wait to see if he simply does the same in this case, which I'm sure he will. I would appreciate it if you, 172, would look at the changes GMan made to the BNP article and give a (hopefully) unbiased opinion. Please remember when doing so that there is a lot of other biased opinion in that article, from both sides of the left/right divide, but in general it balances itself out. If GMan starts removing things he doesn't like, then someone on the right will come along and do the same with things they don't like, and they will be fully justified in doing so as GMan has created a precedent. Thank you for your time and good night.


 * This person obviously objects to changes I made to the British National Party article. I removed some parts which read like a press releae rather than an encyclopedia article and made some parts more concise, I was not attmpting to bias the article, but this person obviously objects G-Man 13:39, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

So you know, I did find the precedent you were looking for. User:mydogategodshat was turned down for adminship with almost 2/3 of the voters supporting him, and nobody objected. I can say this honestly because I was one of his supporters: I'd forgotten he had that many votes when I entered the discussion earlier. Anyway, I'm looking forward to Jimmy's thoughts, of course, but we have a system in place, and it seems to be functioning. Thanks for your good work here. Jwrosenzweig 05:42, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)


 * I had been rather busy this past week with work and did not see BL's nomination. I would certainly vote for him if there was a recount. Danny 05:43, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I've sent you an email. I thought I'd better point it out as you said you were having trouble with your email recently. Angela. 14:04, Feb 29, 2004 (UTC)

Could you at least try talking to User:200.84.43.124 before banning him for 1000 days? He's only made 4 edits... Evercat 13:12, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the issue top "watch over the page". But it's excessive to ban someone for so long for 4 edits, which do not look like real vandalism. At least point him towards NPOV... or if you must ban him, make it for a shorter length of time. :-) Evercat 13:24, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No worries. It isn't that important. I thought the opposers arguments were kinda lame, but whatever. :) BL 00:11, Mar 2, 2004 (UTC)

North Korea
Could you take a look at North Korea? A new user has POVed it a bit... --mav

The blocked user was someone using a series of proxy servers to bait us... I expect that problem users will be updated eventually. Durig the "fun" several admins also ended up getting blocked while confirming what was happening. Jamesday 01:33, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * I was just checking that it was indeed an open proxy, by accessing Wikipedia through it. But by the time I got it set up, Adam Bishop had already blocked it. -- Tim Starling 01:53, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

It wasn't the POV which got him blocked. It was the "bet you can't stop me" taunting in IRC as he switched IPs around baiting people. If you look at what I incorporated you'll find that I did remove the worst of the POV - and I agree that there's still more worth removing - Stalin was pretty nasty but he did a great deal of modernising in one generation. If you stop by in IRC I'll paste you the log so you can see what I mean. Meanwhile, how about leaving it for a while so I can do a more thorough rework when I have more time, likely tomorrow, since I do actually agree that it needs significant work. Jamesday 01:47, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have been compiling a List of United States firearms topics and noticed most of the articles have a very anti-gun control bias. Before I started the list, there was only one orphan article on groups that favored gun control. I was wondering if you knew of any user that would be willing to go over these articles to make sure they are NPOV. This is particulary important because gun control may become a major political issue in the US due to the sunsetting of the federal assault weapons ban. --Hcheney 16:26, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Replacing the photo on Adam's page was childish and in clear violation of our policies. If you want to be taken seriously you should behave in a dignified manner, even when your "opponent" does not.&mdash;Eloquence 16:03, Mar 6, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments and support. I;ve been mostly retreating to the quiet of Wikisource and Wikipedia. I suppose if my work there were counted my article total would be noticeably higher. For me being a Wikipedia sysop is one of theose thanks-but-no-thanks situations. Adam Carr's carryings on at Kim Il-jung seem to be as amateurish as what you see from official DPRK sources, and differs only in expressing the opposing POV. I had thought of responding to your (at least I think it was you) comments about "tyranny of the majority" on the mailing list. It's very difficult to explain to those people who equate democracy with voting. Eclecticology 04:47, 2004 Mar 7 (UTC)

Given the tone of your conflict with User:Adam_Carr, and as a neutral observer who has nothing to say about the article in question, may I suggest that you both seek mediation, rather than just slugging it out? Danny 13:39, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

A truly inane edit to Karl Marx: ...many have concluded the Soviet Union's numerous internal failings and subsequent collapse is a direct result of the pratical failings of Marx's policies. -- Viajero 16:01, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

While I don't agree at all with the views of the troublemaker on the problems of land distribution article, I don't see why the page needs to be protected. Protecting a talk page is a a pretty extreme measure, don't you think? Surely he has a right to make his views known on the talk page? Then again, maybe he's done something worse elsewhere that I don't know about. Everyking 19:28, 9 Mar 2004 (UTC)

http://www.geocities.com/progressivepix/wikiwatch Venceremos 10:06, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The user in question WAS inconvenienced by a 24 hour range block I enacted the first week of March; I cancelled the block after he/she complained to me. There aren't even any active range block BY me, and haven't been since at least sunday or monday. I really don't know what's going on, but I'd be very surprised if my range block is still impacting ANYONE. Pakaran. 17:18, 14 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hi, yeah, I did actually poke around the Reagan years section, but got sidetracked by Isenberg's in-depth study of the post-WWII US Navy - a colossus bestriding the world but unsure what to do with itself, book is an interesting prism on the official ship histories that we've have been adding here... Anyway, I got two high-order bits of interest. First, I looked at Tyndall and Shi's two-volume US history text, and it only had a couple pages on Reagan years, didn't do much more than recite the bare facts and was not nearly as in-depth as what we have here. Encyclopedia articles really shouldn't be longer than textbooks, so somehow or another things need to be pruned and partitioned. Second, I noticed in the Reagan shelves proper that all the books were either contemporaneous polemics, by partisans or their opponents, or of more recent date, conference proceedings where the historians argue for various interpretations, and the post-presentation Q&A often includes Reagan people justifying themselves. So my takeaway is that for details of policy there is not yet a consensus that can be distilled into a neutral article. So what I would suggest is to move the detailed economics and policy material into dedicated articles, and start (informally) budgeting by word count. WP is not paper, but we still need to watch how we're consuming the reader's attention span. It wouldn't hurt to do a little word count exercise on Britannica's articles, use that as a general target. Stan 19:17, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your effusive support on RFA! It is much appreciated. –Hajor 16:37, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I sincerely thank you for your vote and kind words on Request for Adminship. --Hcheney 23:04, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Featured articles
172, I'd like to point out that I'm not supporting the removal of the article from FA, but that the policies regarding that page are specific - an article is delisted until the objections are resolved. I also feel compelled to inform you that you have reverted said page 4 times in the last 24 hours, a violation of [[Wikipedia:How to revert a page to an earlier version
 * 1) Revert wars considered harmful (the three revert guideline)|the three revert guideline]]. Is the listing or nonlisting of one article on Featured articles while it's merrits are discussed really worth a possible 24 hour ban? Gentgeen

testimony needed
We are having a debate on my page on whether rickk uses Junta and mcCarthyist tactics please participate.GrazingshipIV 02:57, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

reverted Fascism
Would you believe I actually reverted your NPOV edits? I'd better explain.

I think we can always edit for NPOV later. Right now I think it might be interesting to see if we can actually subvert Wheeler to the Wikipedia side. ;-) Lets let the wise wikipedians try to work out a consensus for Facism with Wheeler. If they fail (let's hope not!), then hmm, say a week from now I'll put the NPOV edits back in again myself, or you can do it if you like.

Kim Bruning 11:59, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and while you're at it, a head's up on some of the recent Nazism edits by Sam Spade. I reverted twice yesterday, but it is getting frustrating. Danny

Requests for page protection. Done. ant

Please check Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_adminship so you can make an informed decision on my vote --Hcheney 17:37, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

re: grazingship
Hcheney has come clean with some truths regarding GrazingshipIV. You may want to reconsider your Quickpoll vote. Kingturtle 23:59, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ah it seems we are both engaged in the seemingly endless task of keeping the WP safe from loopy right-wing conspiricy theories. If its going to be kept then I think that the Nazism and socialism article should be re-written from scratch, although I'd much prefer it was deleted.

Actually I created the page to remove the "Nazism is Socialism" dross from the main Socialism article, in the hope that it would sit in a dusty corner where no-one would notice it. But that doesnt seem to have worked.

BTW the dissapearance of User:jtdirl is rather alarming. I hope nothing bad has happened to him, have you tried e-mailing him? G-Man 23:56, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I've rewritten Nazism and socialism, to attempt to make it, you know, an actual article, as opposed to a list of nonsense. My version was probably fairly POV, but I tried to trace the contemporary thoughts on the relations of Nazism and socialism (by Nazis, by Socialists, and by supporters of the center-right parties), and then to discuss Nazism in practice, and finally arguments after the war about this question. As I said, it was pretty unsympathetic to the notion that Nazism is socialism, but I think it was infinitely better than the article before. I was, of course, immediately reverted by User:Sam Spade (so you'll have to check in the history), but I'd like the opinions of others about this. Obviously, any weaknesses in my version could be improved upon by further editing, which cannot be said for the current article... john 07:16, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No worries. I think this is the sort of subject that we have to work really hard on to make sure that we simply report the bare facts. "Critics claim XYZ." Bang. Next topic. Otherwise it gets really messy. But I rarely do political subjects anymore. Cheers - Tannin

Origins
Could you respond at Talk:Origins of the American Civil War/categorization so that we can work on getting out of this nasty situation? --mav 20:51, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
 * I put a sample division of the page here; please take a look and tell me what you think (on the categorization talk page). Note that right now no other parts of WP link to this set of 4 pages; passing users will still see the current single article. +sj+ 08:19, 2004 Mar 27 (UTC)
 * Glad you like it. One last change made: I renamed "OotACW (1/4)" to "OotACW", what all external links point to; it has a full TOC for the entire article (by hand, not auto-generated).  Please see what you think.  (Since we don't have tranclusion working yet, there's no way to present a long- and short- version of an article without duplicating information, in which case the two versions might get out of synch; once we have transclusion, these presentation issues will be moot points!)  +sj+ 21:44, 2004 Mar 27 (UTC)

Fascism
The article is now protected thanks to TDC's imbecilic insistence on putting the Soviet Union on the list of fascist countries. Sigh...any ideas for how to proceed? john 23:58, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Also, could you help out with talking to AndyL about why we don't need a lengthy discussion of how conservatives helped the Nazis into power in the Nazism and socialism article? As Wikipedia's fiery stalinist (or whatever), perhaps he'd listen to you. john 00:13, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

(Just to note that I don't think you're actually a stalinist. That was a joke.) john 00:15, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

New Imperalism
Hey hows it going just wondering if New Imperalism is going to come out of page protection soon I think I have info to contribute, I don't want to get involved if it's going to be a real hassle what was the reason for protecting? GrazingshipIV 06:53, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

Intervention in TheBam
A user known as thebam is attempting to discredit and smear me on wikipedia this user was created after my exchange with rickk which MAY be a coincidence eitherway I do beleive he is a sockpuppet created by someone who wants to discredit me as he has no other contributions other than trying to pretend I "struck" a deal to get at rickk to make myself an admin. Please intervene in this matter. GrazingshipIV 17:20, Mar 28, 2004 (UTC)

Patience
Patience, indeed, seems to be necessary for dealing with contentious issues on talk pages. But repeated bludgeonings with actual knowledge don't seem to be enough to hold back the likes of Sam Spade, who has, I think, rather revealed his true colors at Talk:Nazism and socialism with his proclamation that any form of government intervention in the economy qualifies as socialism. I'm kind of at a loss as to how to deal with such issues. Spade seems to mostly go about adding extreme libertarian POV to articles, and I have no particular ethical problem with just reverting his nonsensical "NPOVing" attempts. But just reverting nonsense from someone who's seemingly perfectly willing to continue spouting nonsense for all eternity (and is, in fact, quite patient and clever about it - he didn't intervene while AndyL and I were disputing over how much should be said about conservative support for Hitler, waiting until we'd pretty much finished arguing before he started on his obnoxious editing) doesn't seem especially effective. And Spade's not really done anything that ought to merit him being banned, either. I'm trying to see if there's any way to incorporate his views, but a statement like "Some libertarians feel that any government intervention in the economy is socialist, which would make the Nazi regime, like most other governments throughout history, [Spade has himself said that he thinks Eisenhower republicanism, feudalism, and mercantilism are all forms of socialism] socialist" would simply be completely ridiculous, and embarrassing for wikipedia. At the same time, Spade is constantly demanding that we provide sources for completely uncontroversial statements about the Nazi regime, and citing undergraduate history papers online as sources for his arguments. What the hell is to be done about stuff like this? john 08:38, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't get anything from you, although I'm not sure where I would get it. john 18:50, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

New user?
Not sure where you got the idea I am a "new user" from, unless you count everyone here under six months as one. I've made my first logged-in edit at Katzenelnbogen on 22:04, 17 Dec 2003, and have since become quite aware of Wik's love for revert and edit wars. I won't be drawn into one again. &mdash; Jor (Talk) 19:15, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Lir
Would you be more or less agreeable to mediating with Lir instead of Sam? Tuf-Kat 20:39, Mar 29, 2004 (UTC)

Origins, Resource lists
Looks like it will be featured again soon. Great! Thanks for raising the bar around here. Thanks also for the lovely resource list on your user page; I've snagged a copy and am trying to integrate it into my own... Let me know if you successfully carry that template over to any other long articles. +sj+ 05:17, 2004 Mar 30 (UTC)

It looks like in your last (or second to last?) edit of Talk:Fascism you deleted a comment of mine. If this was on purpose, why did you do it? It is poor etiquette and you shouldn't delete what others write. If this was an acceident -- don't worry about it, but please restore what I wrote. Slrubenstein
 * Thanks for the response, I'll sort it out, SLR

QUICKPOL
I add new QUCIKPOLL for JOR POV Pusher. Please vote!!

Fascism and Communism
The page is Ed Poor's creation. I was going to put it up for deletion as redundant but I ended up trying to rewrite it instead. AndyL 06:28, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Quickpoll and Red Scare
Hey, I see that a quick poll has been started about you for your reverts to Red Scare. While I would agree that you were basically right in your changes, I don't think you necessarily went about it in the best way. The appearance, at least, of cordiality and desire for consensus, can help tremendously. That said, I think this is an example of why the three revert rule is problematic, and an example of procedural fetishism on Wikipedia - it matters not who is right about a content dispute, but rather who is more impolite in pushing their views. john 07:35, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

172, I think you misunderstand me on Talk: Fascism. First, I know what Sam Spade is trying to do. He said that you need mediation and my comment did two things. First, in the summary I pointed out that mediation is not about one person but between two people (i.e., him); in my comment I pointed out that mediation involving him and you is up to him and you. If you look at the mediation page, you will see that they rather not have only one person request mediation -- they prefer all involved parties to agree to it. The point is, Sam Spade shouldn't have requested mediation without your agreement. If you don't agree (as seems to be the case) then it's unlikely there will be any mediation between the two of you. I was implicitly criticizing Sam for not getting your permission. I didn't do this explicitly, because I think that is for you to decide (all you need to say is, "I don't agree, and the mediation committee prefers requests where both parties agree").

Second, I was asking about mediation between us and WHEELER/TDC -- my request (or rather question, to you, John, and Adylehrer, as to whether you want to request mediation) doesn't concern Sam Spade at all, and certainly isn't suggesting that you are a problem -- only WHEELER and TDC are problems. But Iwon't make the mistake Sam Spade made, and unilaterally put in a request on the mediation page. All of us have to agree first.

If you think mediation is a bad idea, what do you suggest? If the main page is unblocked, you know WHEELER and TDC won't quit with their garbage. If we revert them three times in one day (which I bet would happen), we can be temproarily banned! We need to bring other people into this. Besides, even if this doesn't happen on the main page, they are consuming far too much time and energy on the talk page. A couple of days ago I suggested we all just ignore them, but some people can't resist responding to them. Such responses are thoughtful, detailed, and informed, but only feed the trolls. I really think something more is needed. Slrubenstein

Bolshevik
Could you please take a look at the Bolshevik article. It's awful as it stands and desperately needs work. AndyL 05:58, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Origins of the American Civil War
Those changes to part one are good- it's much clearer to me now! I still have questions on parts 2,3 and 4 though. ;) Markalexander100 07:06, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Two and three are good now too. Four? Markalexander100 10:37, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

I'm not really qualified to comment on the Marx article, esp. since that looks more like it's a move of text rather than phrasing changes. I'll keep an eye on Fidel Castro, though. Meelar 21:53, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

PS You might want to watch out--that last revert was your fourth in 24 hours, violating the policy. Don't get yourself tempbanned. Yours, Meelar 21:54, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Did you reply to my last e-mail I sent a while ago, cause if you did I didn't get it. G-Man 18:53, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

re: back me up
You wrote:


 * Things would go a lot more smoothly if another admin backed me up next time, instead of dragging me on this page...

I reckon things might go more smoothly if you didn't revert TDC quite so hard, allowing another editor to back you up by reverting TDC with you. In a way, by reverting so hard, you're kinda preventing people from backing you up in the most obvious way possible - by editing the page in question.

Just something to think about. Also, I guess you might want to vote in opposition to the stuff on wikipedia talk:revert, if you find the time. I can do it for you, if you'd like. Martin

172, do you need other people to help you fight your fights? TDC 00:07, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yo, number boy, I gotcher back. Don't be wasting yore 3 reverts a day on trash, but gimme a holler! --Uncle Ed 20:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Message
172, I need help with white seperatism I tried reasoning with people on the talk page that white seperatism is racist but they refused to budge. I added that it was to the page but I doubt it will stand for long. Please review the talk page to see the debate but I would like some sort of process if the page continues to be distorted by white supremacists trying to hide from their beliefs. thanks. GrazingshipIV 19:22, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

Ok
Thanks for the clearifcation 172 (im a little intoxicated so a cant spell) Comrade Nick

True or false??
True or false: you are someone who is trying to take the word "American" out of the English language. 66.32.157.53 01:34, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)
 * False. I'm trying ensure that we match the meaning of the word "American" with its definition(s) as precisely as possible. When the meaning of another adjective fits more precisely than "American" in a given context, we ought to use it and recognize an encyclopedia's goal of clarity, precise usage of the word "American," and the English language. BTW, I say this with humility. For the sake of full disclosure, I have a little egg in my face saying this now. The day after I'd made those changes to United States, I logged onto Wikipedia and found that my article Origins of the American Civil War was the featured article on the main page. So, as I try to encourage users to use "U.S." as an adjective when it fits better than "American," everyone who logs into WP now sees how I've made that mistake in an article title! Talk about unfortunate situational irony! 172 21:27, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Interesting - I assumed "American Civil War" was a proper noun, and the "official" name of the war. Similarly, the Battle of Britain is not the only battle to have taken place in the UK. :)

Btw, ik is in arbitration again. You supported him last time (IIRC), so if you have comments or evidence, Requests for arbitration/Wik2. Martin 21:52, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No problems. Danny 00:26, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hi, I've unblocked Wik. I would like your support on this. Danny 14:15, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Wasn't the "official" name "the war between the states"? AndyL 17:32, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Left-Right Politics
Hey, could you check out Left-Right Politics? TDC's been, IMO, making mush of it, but I'd like other opinions. Thanks. john 01:51, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

An old friend...
I think someone "new" is really someone old... if you catch my drift. If you have similar suspicions, let me know. If I sound like some sort of raving lunatic, ignore me. ;) --Dante Alighieri | Talk 19:41, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

And would that be me Dante Alighieri? TDC 21:15, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What on earth would make you think that? --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:14, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)


 * Ah, just realized what it probably was. The last edit I made before the one to 172's talk page was an unprotection of TDC's user page. I had accidently clicked protect instead of discuss and immediately undid the protection (check the logs). While we're at it, those two buttons should REALLY not be right next to each other. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 23:22, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)

Oil for food allegations
I put it on vote for deletion: Get-back-world-respect 00:05, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Be still my beating heart! You put in a VFD? TDC 21:03, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Origins of the American Civil War
Thank you for pointing out the more stable edit. The page has been reverted to the edit you mentioned and remains protected. --Flockmeal 03:45, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)

If it were only about the American Civil War article, I'd certainly vote in your favor. But those other two edit wars are utterly bewildering to me, and I'm not sure I really want to get involved. And you really shouldn't revert a page 12 times...I hope you don't get banned, but I'm not really sure I'd be acting in good faith in voting no. john 04:14, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Quickpoll
I know getting banned would be a bitter pill to swallow, but please consider staying even if the worst should happen. Though we are not ideological soul mates, Wikipedia needs a balance, and users like you to be neutral. --Hcheney 04:29, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

172, please don't threaten to leave. These people are stupid, but that doesn't mean it's worth leaving the project over. It's also a bit unfair to kind of blackmail people into voting against the temp ban by threatening to leave forever. I don't think what you've done warrants a temp ban, but it certainly seems to be a violation of the current rules, and you certainly knew that at the time. So why not just sit out the temp ban (if that's what occurs), cool down a bit, and think about where you are? In terms of dealing with these people, yeah, it's extremely frustrating. But going off and reverting twelve times doesn't actually get things any closer to where you want them to be, does it? A bit of patience, and decent periods of time either away from Wikipedia or ignoring the various conflicts you are involved in, can do wonders, I think. At any rate, if you feel you have to leave, I for one will think that Wikipedia has lost one of its best contributors. john 04:32, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Statement on my involvement
Here is a copy of what I've written on VV's talk page and how I feel about the whole issue:

Well Beard, of course, is now used by right wing racists who want to argue the Civil War wasn't about slavery, so that's not all that crazy. john 05:03, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, I've voted for you on the Quickpoll now. Since RickK has voted against you, admittedly not on the basis of the actual question at hand, but because he wants you to leave, I figure I may as well balance that out. And now to bed. john 05:18, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry to see this happen to you, I too know what it is like to be unfairly quickpolled. Very Verily's record speaks for itself as does yours. You have made real contributions to wikipedia and this attempt to subvert the process of quickpolling is outrageous. I hope you pull through. I am not eligable to vote yet, but if I were I would in your favor. Thanks, keep up the good work, and please do not leave. GrazingshipIV 05:37, Apr 17, 2004 (UTC)

Wiki-Politics
I don't think I would do well on the conflict resolution committees because I am morally opposed to the byzantine wiki pseudo-judiciary. I think there is a general crisis in wiki-governance. I hope that wikipedia will transition to governance by a representative democracy with an common-law style independent judiciary for enforcement. --Hcheney 06:33, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Don't go
Well, just that. Let them block you or not, but do not let it block your contributing.Pfortuny 08:00, 17 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Zimbabwe
I don't disagree with you. I was originally going to redirect your redirect to the History of Zimbabwe article but I found the material insufficient. That's probably the best place to integrate the Rhodesia material IMHOAndyL 04:34, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

History of Chile
I hope we can reach a mutually acceptable compromise on how to describe the involvement of the United States in the 1973 coup in Chile. After this weekend's discussion, I see there are 2 distinct points:
 * 1) Was the coup justified, or not? (a matter of values)
 * 2) To what degree was the CIA involved? (a matter of fact)

I think that the fact-value distinction will help us clarify things. What do you think? --Uncle Ed 14:00, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Red Terror
User:172, I note you have removed the link to the Red Terror from the article History of Russia and the Soviet Union (1917-1927), This was one of Lenin's most important policies for which there is good historical evidence. Please replace this link. Fred Bauder 15:49, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

A quote from Gulag: A History, 'The Red Terror was crucial to Lenin's struggle for power. Concentration camps, the so-called "special camps," were crucial to the Red Terror. They are mentioned in the very first decree on Red Terror...' She footnotes that decree as being titled, "On Red Terror" and as being published in Sbornik, September 5, 1918, page 11.


 * Not sure what words the Bolsheviks used for Red Terror, but I think they did use that term, in Russian of course. I haven't written an article yet, but have enough info. Please see if you can fit it in. Fred Bauder 22:14, Apr 19, 2004 (UTC)

References for the Red Terror

 * Page 9, Anne Applebaum, Gulag: A History, Doubleday, 2003, hardcover, 677 pages, ISBN 0767900561
 * Chapter 3, "The Red Terror", pages 71-80, Courttois, et al, The Black Book of Communism Crimes Terror Repression, Harvard University Press, 1999, hardcover, 858 pages, ISBN 0674076087
 * Articles in Encarta, One entitled Red Terror

Quickpoll notice
You and VeryVerily are the subjects of a new quickpoll for your reverts on Saddam Hussein. --Michael Snow 22:43, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For a user who has supposedly left us, you certainly have been doing a lot of editing recently. - Fennec 13:47, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thankyou, Abe - both for the heads up and for the contribution that you yourself made to the article. The illustrations in particular gave it a lift and made it, I think, much more readable. Best -- Tannin 14:09, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Don't let the bastards grind you down. Just because some wikipedians are on your back doesn't mean you aren't appreciated by others. Last time I checked a majority voted against banning you for a day so please stay. AndyL 18:19, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Speaking of bastards I've started a quickpoll on banning Vogel. AndyL 18:46, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I undeleted: see User page, which I'm guessing you haven't seen, though it's vaguelly inferrable from deletion policy. You're supposed to go through VfD, just like a non-admin. Part of the whole business of admin powers not being special priviledges - if Joe Bloggs can't delete and undelete his user page on a whim, then neither should we. I'm not going to list it on VfD, because as you are in the process of leaving, I'm not sure whether you'll want to go through that hassle. Martin 21:48, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

172, I thought over recent events and realized I am way too harsh. I'm not sufficiently courteous or cooperative to point a finger at anyone else. (Watching The Greatest Story Ever Told this weekend may have sparked this realization :-)

Anyway, you might want to take a look at this plea for more courtesy on a talk page you recently visited. --Uncle Ed 13:11, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)