User talk:24.132.187.209

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The Wikipedia tutorial is a good place to start learning about Wikipedia. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the village pump or ask me on my talk page. By the way, you can sign your name on Talk and discussion pages using four tildes, like this: &#126;&#126;&#126;&#126; (the software will replace them with your signature and the date). Again, welcome! Kautilya3 (talk) 11:37, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

April 2018
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like you to assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you. Kautilya3 (talk) 11:36, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If this is a shared IP address, and you did not make the edits, consider creating an account for yourself or logging in with an existing account so you can avoid further irrelevant notices.
 * Hello and I wanted to say thank you for the welcome... But then I see your strange 'reminder' on my page without any explanation, proof or reason why you put it here? Upon further research, I noticed you made this edit on my Talk page, falsely accusing me of vandalism? That is utterly impossible (I was not even here at that time, the 13th of April). While you have since removed that, instead of properly apologizing (an edit summary doesn't count) you left this unexplained, unsubstantiated 'reminder'. I triple checked everywhere, and I never seen you anywhere on the pages I occasionally edited, with what little spare time I got from my busy schedule. I have no idea what this is about. When leaving any kind of reminder, you need to explain why you did so, and provide proof to back it up - and you had plenty of opportunities to do so due to the many months I was away on business - yet you did neither. Ironically, on your own talk page I see this gem  where you violated The Assume Good Faith guideline, yourself. Unlike you, that editor immediately provided his proof (a link) and an explanation... Your reply to him with "I wasn't born yesterday" speaks volumes. You have much heavier warnings on your talk page as well. Seems like a case of Unwarranted/False reminder as per WP:HUSH aka "false or questionable" reminders/warnings. 24.132.187.209 (talk) 23:48, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Regarding edit conflicts
Hi 24.132.187.209. I'm sorry, I didn't see that you had a talk page and I didn't know it was even possible for an unregistered user to have a talk page. In any case, have you read what I mentioned on the talk pages of other people? If so, please could you address the points I brought up? If you wish, I can repeat them all here for you. I hope we can have a civilised discussion regarding the edit conflict on History of Wine. Cheers :) --KartvelianCelt (talk) 16:18, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh, and you complained about not receiving an invite. I don't know how else to invite you so here is a link to the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:History_of_wine --KartvelianCelt (talk) 16:29, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Incredible, I just discovered that you, KartverlianCelt/DewyBukiaPeters (hereafter Kart), made two replies to my last comment (where you were WP:FOLLOWING aka WP:WIKIHOUND ) to another Talk Page (pre-archived version) of this respected Editor Zanhe before I had to go abroad for my business projects for several months (I just returned)... but You evaded all my points. You literally answered none of the points I raised... In specific these two comments of yours (see 16:28, 22 April 2018) and (see 16:23, 22 April 2018) here  (they are not properly indented making them hard to spot and easy to miss). Yet, I see you are asking me to answer all your points while you evade all my points aka had no intention of answering mine.

What apology? what sorry? You mean your Denial of any wrong doing aka Gaslighting tactics on Sheriff's Talk Page ? Or on Zanhe's Talk Page where you never apologized either. In Fact you only made more Personal Attacks on Zanhe's talk page, and Never Apologized for them, ever! Stop Personal Attacks WP:NPA and Stop Gaslighting, I know for a fact that you never apologized for any of the Personal Attacks or other violations for that matter (Original Research + Synth, Blanking of quoted evidence of the exact two sources you kept Violating with Repeated Original Research / Synth WP:OR WP:SYNTH) see below for details. You know what happens when you combine WP:FOLLOWING + WP:NPA? It can lead to a ban or block! And yes Kart was tendentious and disruptive (continued slander, ad hominem, lying, respected veteran editor Zanhe stated that the sources were explicit of grapes in wine, stop lying Kart).

I am willing to answer any of points after you answer mine first, because I raised the points long before your points. Which is only fair. In fact, I raised my points about your Misrepresentations of the sources aka Original Research and Synth, ever since the beginning; as well as points about your Blanking, Illegitimate aka Blatant Vandalism (see zanhe's talk page), and your many Personal Attacks in violation of WP:NPA - but you pretend to WP:IDHT and never answered them. Your latest replies of yours to my last comment on Zanhe's Talk page - evading every point I made therein - attests to that fact.

My very first reply to your first edit  on the wine history wikipage was absolutely respectful and civilized, thus you cannot imply that I wasn't discussing in a "civilised" manner to you, like you stated here. This, despite the fact that your edit and claims were blatant WP:OR / WP:SYNTH and failed WP:VERIFY and WP:DISRUPT (see "misrepresents reliable sources, or manufactures original research" on the Disrupt Policy wikipage) I didn't make it a problem as I did not mind it, as per Good Faith. I originally noticed you did not restore the 6000 BC to 8000 BC defacement, which makes other editors rather angry on the wine pages. That was what lead me to investigate your edit. But unlike other editors on the page I was still respectful. What was your response? WP:IDHT and Unilaterally Re-inserting Original Research and Synth based falsehoods, in your 2nd reply, and adding McGovern's already cited WP:PRIMARY source (see below - Secondary Sources take precedence over WP:PRIMARY Sources and are needed for any interpretation of a primary source) in your 3rd edit. That source, Mcgovern et al, was also written by McGovern himself, and most importantly added nothing he did not already cover for this matter (see details in No Original Research Section below) and thus not an independent source. And, he cited two of his own works, this is not the original source for that page, but part of the sources he used (both he cites on that page are also written by himself, he cites himself rather often, which is a bit unusual). Sadly Kart does exactly what wikipedia warns editors not to do, misinterpret WP:PRIMARY source, he even repeatedly and deliberately misinterpreted all the sources, ignoring my warning WP:IDHT for him to stop his violations on that wikipage (see the No Original Research section below). He then uses this to inflate sources, falsely claiming that the majority of sources support him, when they literally do not (as explain in the No Original Research Section). moreover, McGovern's source is much older than the more resent sources who never cited him on this specific issue, their new findings superseded McGovern's works WP:AGE MATTERS, this forms a current scholarly consensus WP:SOURCETYPES.

Your repeated violations by misinterpreting all the sources aka Original Research and Synth is against WP:OR / WP:SYNTH, against WP:DISRUPT, as well as directly inserting WP:OR/WP:SYNTH based nonsense, defacing the page content in breech of WP:VD. That was what prompted me to warn you, which is legitimate, and thus adding the two full quotes of the two sources (Castro-Sowinki 2016 as well as Hames 2010) as taken from the Chinese own wiki wine page. Your response? Again WP:IDHT and then the unimaginable, Blanking, Illegitimate aka Blatant Vandalism of those exact two sources you have been abusing with Original Research (see Below for details). This is a Manual Deletion, no undid revision in your edit summary anywhere, as intermittent edits prevented it. You even did not mention what you did in that edit, which you must do when you delete such important evidence!

Let me quote WP:VD / "Blanking, Illegitimate" aka Blatant Vandalism "Blanking, illegitimate" "Removing encyclopedic content without any reason, or replacing such content with nonsense."

You did not even mention that you Manually Deleted (not an accident as you deny/gaslight on Respected Editor Sheriff's Talk Page) two entire quotes

Before you imply I was not "civilised" in discussing it with you? Look at your malicious behavior. Stop trolling and Gaslighting denying your violations and launching personal attacks.

Sadly, I see you have violated WP:OR WP:SYNTH yet again, to make your preferred nation earliest... Kart, I suggest you go get a source that says Georgia is earliest in wine archeology, and put it on the wiki page, that would be great, but No Original Research and No Synth. What part of don't misrepresent the sources aka No OR and no WP:SYNTH, do you not understand? Misrepresenting sources is also against WP:DISRUPT, for any of these violations you can get banned, you violated them repeatedly and many more. Stop WP:IDHT.

As per No Original Research, I will restore the content of that wine page prior to your OR/SYNTH Violations (Kart always uses OR/SYNTH based nonsense as an excuse, to removed a rival nation (China) from the earliest spot, to make the nation next-in-line (Georgia) the earliest in wine findings... Then he re-inserts a OR/SYNTH based nonsense part directly into the page about the Chinese wine findings, making it seem it is some kind of mixture, and even attributing that to the Professors, as if it was their own words and work. No Original Research and Synth, KartvelianCelt!

Kart you have Zero trouble communicating of IP editors on their Talk Pages Who are you trying to deceive that you could not contact me. Now that we are on the subject of you not being able to contact me, how the hell do you claim you send me an invitation, and then DARE to instantly condemn me for not showing up on Zanhe's Talk Page!? This is pure Malicious SLANDER!

It is incredible you write this above on my page: "I'm sorry, I didn't see that you had a talk page and I didn't know it was even possible for an unregistered user to have a talk page."

Look what you did on Zanhe's talk page when you violated WP:FOLLOWING aka WP:WIKIHOUND part of WP:HARASS and wrote blatant slander:

QUOTE "I invited 24.132.187.209 to talk about it on the talk page for history of wine but they did not do so; rather, they aggressively responded to my edits and accused me of vandalism and lies."

Link: @ (09:20, 12 April 2018). See also on Kart's editing history page

Then the very next comment of your on another talk page WP:FOLLOWING aka WP:WIKIHOUND part of WP:HARASS, here on Sheriff's Talk Page:

Quote "My good friend, 24.132.187.209. How am I to send you a notification when you are not even registered? What can I do? Again, I clearly stated that I did not intentionally try to destroy evidence: I may have erased one of your sources by accident in the past for which I am sorry but there is no way I intentionally tried to destroy your evidence."

Link: @ (06:11, 13 April 2018). See Also on Karts editing history page.

Incredible, literally your follow up comment on Sheriff's Talk Page denies you ever contacted me! This comes literally after your Slander attack comment which you posted on Zanhe's Talk Page, where you Maliciously stated you send me an invitation, and of course condemning me for not showing up!

Literally the next edit comment on your edit history here (09:20, 12 April 2018) on Zanhe's Talk page (06:11, Kart's very next comment at Sheriff's Talk page (13 April 2018), you shot yourself in the foot, destroys your own Slander with your follow up edit! Caught You Red Handed in the ACT of Slander What complaining? I stated a FACT, you were slandering and lying through your teeth about a fake invitation, and you used to that discredit me! Stop Trolling and Stop Slanderous Personal Attacks WP:NPA! In fact you are complaining that i am calling out your violations, wrongfully calling it intimidation, when at that same day (10th of april) you committed "Blanking, Illegitimate" aka Blatant Vandalism, re-inserted Original research and Synth several times (No Original Research!) AND Send me to go search for Empty Talk Page several times in one day!

What sorry? you were not sorry when you made those Malicious Slander aka Personal Attacks, you are only sorry you got caught! Caught on other Editors Talk Page, violating WP:FOLLOWING aka WP:WIKIHOUND as part of WP:HARASS! Combining the two would result in a ban or block see WP:FOLLOWING / WP:HARASS + WP:NPA!

Kart you accuse me of failing to show up for your non existent invitation, and the next comment revealing you LIED, you shot yourself in the foot, revealing you LIED aka SLANDER!

You were not sorry when you committed Nothing other than "Blanking, Illegitimate" aka Blatant Vandalism, without ever mentioning it or explaining what you deleted and why (see posted above, also mentioned in my last comment, on zanhe's talk page, which you evaded). A textbook case of Blatant Vandalism and destroying the evidence that exposed your repeated Original Research and Synth violations. Worse, it was not just one but two scholars works you kept misrepresenting with WP:SYNTH, and McGovern with OR/SYNTH (he was not certain it was grapes alone or mixed with other fruit, kart's version = 100% certain it was mixed! Instead, of leaving behind the required explanation in the edit summary of what you deleted, you left that Trolling Ad Hominem - again, sending me to an empty Talk page wild goose chase - and Taunt as well as Bait throwing a mocking cheers after committing those blatant violations. This after I put those quotes to stop your Misinterpretation aka Original Research of those exact two sources (Castro-Sowinksi as well as Hames)! That action of yours displayed utter contempt for the core Wikipedia policies!

Your next edit with a Empty Edit summary, re-inserts Original Research and Synth with which you deface the content again, as if its no one business... No Original Research KartvelianCelt!

I had to find out what he did by checking his edits (the blanking) and Again finding Nothing on Any Talk Pages! More on you kept sending me to Empty Talk Page Wild goose Chase! Which is malicious trolling and disruptive (see below wild goose chase on empty talk pages).

This is just one of the many Personal Attacks of yours. Many more to come. Such as blatant Blanking aka Blatant Vandalism (as mentioned on zanhe's talk page, but you evade)

Let me remind you, that combining Harassment at the other Talk Pages WP:WIKIHOUND + Personal Attacks WP:NPA has severe repercussions, it can lead to a ban or block.

Hell, even on Sheriff's Talk Page you just Deny all of it: "I'm not "harassing", "trolling" or "vandalising". As I've made clear in my most recent comments, I would prefer dialogue rather than agro ;)" Link:

Kart, read WP:FOLLOWING (see zanhe's page page aka WP:WIKIHOUND which are part of WP:HARASS.

Here check this quote from WP:IUC (as part of WP:CIVIL):

Quote from WP:IUC *(b) harassment, including Wikihounding, bullying, personal or legal threats, posting of personal information, repeated email or user space postings

Quote from WP:UNCIVIL "In cases of repeated harassment or egregious personal attacks, then the offender may be blocked." Yes what you did is harassment to all the people involved, including to the editors where you barge in uninvited! Stop Trolling.

Kart, what you did on Zanhe's Talk Page with mocking slander, with all kinds of falsehoods (fake invitation + instant condemnation for not showing up) is Malicious and Disruptive! Stop trolling!

The "Blanking, Illegitimate" aka Blatant Vandalism you committed (see above AND see my comment detailing it on zanhe's Talk Page, long ago, but Kart, Evades) is a textbook case of blatant vandalism (Manual Deletion, no "undid" revision, No mention of it not even an explanation). What you did write in your Edit summary was a pure Ad Hominem, mocking Taunt which is trolling, further more you send me to search empty talk page once again, which is also trolling (see the link and explanation above). You have sever contempt for wikipedia core policies. WP:OR, WP:SYNTH, WP:VERIFY (Kart's edit failed source verification many many times) WP:NPOV (he wants Georgia as earliest but uses OR/SYNTH and defacement of the content to achieve it, plus Kart admitted to "biases" going straight against WP:NPOV).

"None of the sources are explicit in mention of a beverage being made purely from grapes and Castro-Sowinski, the source that 24.132.187.209 so religiously clings to is not about that archaeological site but rather about micro-organisms and environmental biology. It briefly mentions grape wine in china but not in any real detail. In any case, I have since rephrased my sentence in a more compromising manner by explicitly stating that the beverage in China was a wine made from grapes among other fruits."

No, Kart, Legit Academic Secondary Sources cite other Academic Sources and thus able to keep their sentences short. You cannot dismiss Castro-Sowinski for that. When you WP:WIKIHOUND / WP:FOLLOWING all the way to another respected editor (Sheriff) Talk Page, you know that he already went over this, and stated it cannot be dismissed. Especially not by your demand for "analysing primary data". Why? because that would make them Primary Sources, as per WP:PRIMARY and WP:PST, Secondary Sources actually take precedence over Primary sources. Stop misrepresenting the rules of wikipedia( WP:GAMING the system! And, for every statement in a Primary source, you need a legit secondary source!

WP:PST Quotes "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources."

"Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[d] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. " "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so."

Kart, no "agro"? then who is that guy leaving unwarranted and substantiated reminders (his first was a warning against vandalism, which was utterly false and he had to retract it) on my page? Also, I've never sent anyone to your talk page to leave unsubstantiated reminders/warnings, ever. Worse you've seem to have instantly forgotten your Blanking, Illegitimate + personal attack (ad hominem, taunt, you wont listen to me because i've got no registered name, and sending me to empty talk pages wild goose chase AGAIN aka malicious disruptive behavior, all combined-in--one) which total contempt for Wikipedia Core Policy Rules WP:OR/[[WP:SYNTH, WP:VERIFY, WP:NPOV and WP:DISRUPT,WP:NPA, WP:UNCIVIL, WP:GAMING the system, WP:ESDONTS. Why? because I am not registered aka you would Never listen aka WP:IDHT!

Disruptive wild goose chase to empty talk pages

Misrepresenting wikipedia rules

"Added original source. Please go to discussion page before reverting edits." Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_wine&diff=prev&oldid=833407123

No, you cannot send people to EMPTY talk pages before restoring your Original research and defacement of the page! this is WP:GAMING the system by wrongfully misrepresenting wikipedia policy rules!

Wild goose chase - sending me to hunt for Empty Talk Pages Before restoring his WP:OR WP:SYNTH WP:DISRUPT WP:VER] [[WP:NPOV violations he comitted on the content of that page. In case it was not clear, kart has a habit of deliberate sending me to empty talk pages spanning weeks, and misrepresenting the policies as well, all to protect his OR/SYNTH and many other violations on that page.

Quote "Added original source. Please go to discussion page before reverting edits." Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_wine&diff=prev&oldid=833407123

- Talk page is EMPTY. Yes I checked all Talk Pages back then! (His first talk page edit comes a month later).

Quote "Make an account and engage in discussion page before you lecture others on how to follow Wikipedia rules. Cheers.)" Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_wine&diff=835722282&oldid=834390477

- Talk Pages are all EMPTY Again! - Notice Kart committed straight up "Blanking, Illegitimate" aka Blatant Vandalism of those two sources. He Never explained what he did, this is a textbook case of Blanking, illegitimate aka blatant Vandalism. - Instead he left behind that comment sending me to hunt for an EMPTY Talk Page, before i can restore his violation!? - Manual Deletions, are no Accident. Sadly, Kart Deny all of it, via WP:GASLIGHT tactics here on Sheriff's Talk Page, where he WP:FOLLOWING / WP:WIKIHOUND and spectacularly exposed his own slander (see false invitation and instant condemnation from Kart, Malicious and WP:DISRUPTIVE). - No Kart, not "maybe", not accidental, like you try to lie your way out on Sheriff's Talk Page, you absolutely did vandalism KartvelianCelt! (see Sheriff's Talk Page).

Quote "As per rules of Wikipedia; if there is a dispute regarding edits, go to the talk page. You have not gone to the talk page." Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=History_of_wine&diff=prev&oldid=835787129

- Time Stamp (19:29, 10 April 2018) - '''I have been to the talk page at half past the hour! there was Nothing'''. (Kart is lying he only started a talk page Later see below (at 19:36), and he added Nothing when he made this statement! As people can see he did this many, many times before! This is malicious trolling. He keeps demanding I go seek out empty talk/discussion pages, on a wild goose chase before restoring his WP:OR WP:SYNTH violations. This to protect his OR/SYNTH version of the page. he uses this as an obstruction, directly harms wikipedia as per WP:VD) - When I refreshed the page it was just half past the hour, and I saw Nothing any Talk pages yet again! I checked all talk pages! My Talk Page, Kart's Talk page, the Wine History's Wiki Talk page, all of them were again EMPTY. This while he did the same ting that same day (see above)! - Moreover, Kart keeps on misrepresenting the policies, as per WP:GAMING the system, sending me to talk page before I can revert his OR/SYNTH falsehoods he uses to deface the page as per WP:VD. The person making the claim has the burden of proof! Worse Original research and Synth can not ever be used as a justification to alter the content and then ask for consensus and now compromise based on Original research! You also tried passing your unilateral OR/Synth edits as consensus! What? Unilateral imposing anything on the contennt of the page is not consensus seeking behavior! Read consensus Policy page show me where WP:OR / WP:SYNTH, Failed Verification as per WP:VERIFY and your "biases"  in violation of WP:NPOV can ever be passed as consensus seeking or used as compromise?

Kart Stop WP:IDHT, No Original research and No Synth. Unilaterally inserting OR/SYNTH to vandalize the page content to make your preferred nation, the earliest against what thew source state is utterly forbidden. I have never seen anyone abuse Original Research and Synth for as many time and for a long as Kart has done. Most get banned within 2-3 OR/SYNTH edits... Yet he keeps sending me to Empty Talk page Before storing his WP:OR / WP:SYNTH violations on that page for such a long time.

Details of the wild goose chase trolling by Kart. He keeps sending me to empty Talk pages!

Quote None - Time Stamp (19:36, 10 April 2018‎) - This is the first time Kart write something on the Talk page (check his posting history)! I had to find out when I returned briefly on the 12 of April. Even by that time he still send me no invitation! But dared throw Slander accusations at me, on Zanhe's Talk Page where he WP:WIKIHOUND! This combination can result in a ban or block. Admins should really take note.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:History_of_wine&diff=prev&oldid=835787980

After blanking, illegitimate aka blatant vandalism, where he did not explain what he did (I had to find out myself) which is a requirement as per WP:VD, he left behind that Ad Hominem (he had no case so he evaded my points about his repeated misrepresentation of sources and repeated defacement of the content) taunting troll comment instead. where he send me to an EMPTY Talk page Wild Goose Chase!

Quote "Stop trying to intimidate me. I did contribute to the talk page: you still haven't said anything, nor have any intention to. Given your history, it seems all you do is pick fights with others."

Slander, I never intimidated Kart, pointing out his violations is Legit. Kart has Never shown any proof that all if do i pick fights! this is more slander! When I refreshed the page, checked the page at half past the hour (19:30 wikipedia time) there was Nothing on any Talk Pages! I triple checked and finally checked Kart's own edit history to discover he wrote Nothing on any talk pages, he added nothing, this malicious trolling. I got a call at 32 min past the house, and left before I could finished my reply. I later came back and posted my reply. This combined with Kart's blatant Vandalism and Ad hominem troll comment, also sending me to an empty page that exact same day (see explained in detail above), prompted me to seek out the advice of other respected veteran Editors, Zanhe and SheriffisinTown.

Kart in his infinite wisdom then WP:FOLLOWING aka WP:WIKIHOUND aka WP:HARASS to not just one but both editors Talk Pages! Worse, he kept Slandering me (see his false accusations that I did not accept his invitation, which he never send until much later after i called him out!! and furher slandering me that I am somehow religiously clinging on the sources) in diresct violation of WP:NPA as well as WP:UNCIVIL, WP:IUC, WP:ESDONTS. Kart, any kind of slanderous disparaging remark with religion can result in a ban (see WP:NPA! I merely pointed out your repeated WP:OR / WP:SYNTH violations, how is that religiously clinging on the sources??? How is that aggressive? Notice how Kart denies his vandalism violations which he committed via OR/SYNTH as well as that BLATANT act of Blanking. illegitimate (see Zanhe's talk page, links already posted above).

Kart you took weeks and sometimes months between replies, not once have I WP:Hounded you on other talk pages! If you can take time to reply, so can I.

Kart committed so many personal attacks and violations it takes ages to list them all (will add a lot more). Now we move on to the core of his violations WP:OR WP:SYNTH No Original Research and No Synth!


 * EDIT Despite KartvelianCelt not answering my points raised on wikipedia edit summary, Zanhe talk page and Sheriff's talk pages, as well as repeatedly WP:IDHT, I shall answer Kartveliancelt's points. [placeholder, gathering his points and answering them].

No Original Research and No Synth
Quotes From Professor Castro-Sowinski (2016) and Professor Hames (2010)

Quote Professor Castro-Sowinksi: “There is also evidence for various types of alcoholic beverage production, including rice and grape wine, beer, and various liquors including baijiu in China, ca. 7000 B.C.”

Source: see wiki wine page


 * Note: Castro-Sowinki cited professor Professor Legras et al, NOT McGovern et al (2004), nor McGovern's page. Kart stated here that the first two sources (1st source is Castro-Sowinski and the 2nd source is Hames on that version of the page) are inaccurate representations of the original (McGovern's source aka the third sources on that version of the page). This is plain False. Neither of them Cited McGovern for this particular issue, therefore Kart's claim is impossible and falls apart. It is too easy to see that Kart is wrong, and I told him that fact, many, many times after that edit, but Kart WP:IDHT abd continues to re-insert that WP:OR / WP:SYNTH to achive his preferred content version... This is highly  Disruptive. Even my preceding response to that edit of Kart clearly showed that was not true, because checking the sources of Castro-Sowinski as well as Hames, clearly showed they were mentioning wine from grapes, and not the mixed beverage like he claimed, that all sources (yes all three of them) stated what he quoted in his edit summary; that it's some mixture and not really legitimate wine from grapes. . He did the same Original Research and Synth misrepresentation for Professor Hames (see below Hames direct quotes, I took both Castro-Sowinski as well as Hames' quotes from the Chinese own wiki wine page, verbatim, word for word unaltered).

Quote Professor Gina Hames: “The earliest wine, or fermented liquor, came from China, predating Middle Eastern alcohol by a few thousand years. Archeologists have found pottery shards showing remnants of rice and grape wine dating back to 7000 BCE in Jiahu village in Henan province.”

Source: See the wiki wine page


 * Where is there any mention of anything here being mixed?
 * Where is there any mention of other fruits? or Hawthorne?

That is right, nowhere. No Original Research/Synth is ever allowed, KartvelianCelt. Stop WP:OR / WP:SYNTH to deface the content of the page to suit your agenda and preferred version. Also as mentioned earlier, you evaded all of my points on my last comment on Zanhe's Talk Page, replying TWICE but never ever answering points.

And yes, They were explicit, the respected editor Zanhe saw it as well.


 * Both sources (Castro-Sowinski as well as Hames), Never cited McGovern for this specific issue aka their findings on Grape wine of the Chinese at 7000 BC, it's simply not there. This is WP:SYNTH (part of Original Research) abuse. Stop pretending to WP:IDHT. No Original research!

Quotes From McGovern

Quote "The earliest chemically confirmed alcoholic beverage in the world was discovered at Jiahu in the Yellow River Valley of China (Henan province), ca. 7000-6600 B.C. (Early Neolithic Period). It was an extreme fermented beverage made of wild grapes (the earliest attested use), hawthorn, rice, and honey."

Quote "The Jiahu discovery illustrates how you should never give up hope in finding chemical evidence for a fermented beverage from the Palaeolithic period. Research very often has big surprises in store. You might think, as I did too, that the grape wines of Hajji Firuz, the Caucasus, and eastern Anatolia would prove to be the earliest alcoholic beverages in the world, coming from the so-called “Cradle of Civilization” in the Near East as they do. But then I was invited to go to China on the other side of Asia, and came back with samples that proved to be even earlier–from around 7000 BC. " Source: See the wiki wine page

The source Kart added in his 3rd edit here aka McGovern et al 2004, asian perspectives (oddly shown as 2005 on Mcgovern's website). Also note he send me to an EMPTY talk page, which he will repeatedly do. even his last here

Primary source - The first McGovern source on the wikipage shows it already cited the source (McGovern et al 2004, aka asianperspectives.pdf oddly stated to be 2005, you were wrong with the date) that you added in your 3rd edit
 * Note This source of McGovern is a Primary source, that did primary analysis.

Mouse-over this sentence "Chemical Identification and Cultural Implications of a Mixed Fermented Beverage from Late Prehistoric China." and you will see a link to a paper McGovern et al, http://www.penn.museum/sites/biomoleculararchaeology/wp-content/uploads/asianperspectives.pdf

This asianperspectives.pdf aka what you call McGovern et al 2004 (actually 2005?) is a primary source, and will be tagged as such. You need secondary sources for any interpretation made by it.

WP:PST "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[d] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source."

"Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so."

Kart, you misrepresented McGovern, who doesn't even know if it was mixed or Grapes alone! You misrepresented his word via OR/SYNTH, twisting it into a doctored versio of McGovern's work where it becomes 100% certain that it a mixture, as if from McGovern's own words! This is in direct violation of WP:OR WP:SYNTH. Kart did this many many times, despite me informing him his edit was incorrect (see my first response as posted above, earlier), and later ignored my warnings as well.

He then take that doctored, illegitimate, Original Research Twisted false version of McGovern's works, and WP:SYNTH it with Castro-Sowinki as well as Hames, falsely claiming both were inaccurate versions of McGovern's work, while the never cited him on this specific issue and finding - to make it seem that all 3 scholars somehow stated that the Chinese folks had no Legit Grape wine, but a mixture! Thus trying to justify removing a rival nation (the Chinese) which automatically made the Nation next-in-line (Georgia) the earliest in wine, and the seal the deal, he re-inserted a OR/SYNTH misrepresented version directly into the content of the page, attributing it to the professors/authors, as if it were their words!

You did this in as your first edit all the way to your latest edits  misrepresenting sources, in gross violation of Original Research and Synth!

Also not McGovern Uses "biomolcular" as a critical part of his research. Again, you cannot dismiss Castro-Sowinski on such a groundless basis. Again, if you don't agree take it to the Reliable Sources Noticeboard WP:RSN. do not Neglect to mention it is a Legit Academic source, written by a professor, publisher by a Academic publisher. Then again you already know from Sheriff's Talk Page, you cannot dismiss these sources, as the good Sheriff already went over this, and stated one cannot do that.

Sadly it is clear in Kart's latest edit on the wine page, that he has no qualms with the sources, as long as he can abuse them with WP:ORWP:SYNTH misrepresentation to achieve his agenda and POV version of the content (georgia is earliest against what the sources actually stated). Like I mentioned before, get a source and make your preferred nation earliest the legit way, but No Original Research and No Synth.

Furthermore, this was the 2nd part I wanted to show Editor Zanhe, but had no time to get around to write.

This source was from March 2018, Peer-Reviewed, ending the nonsense once and for all.

Title: "Smart Winery: A Real-Time Monitoring System for Structural Health and Ullage in Fino Style Wine Casks" Auhors: Professor Cañete et al 2018, March. University of Spain. Type: Peer-Reviewed (vetted and accepted). Quote: "According to the earliest archaeological evidence, the first grape wine dates back to 7000 BCE in China [6], and the first wine production dates back to 4100 BCE in Armenia [7]." | (On Page 2) Link: https://helvia.uco.es/bitstream/handle/10396/17421/sensors-18-00803.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

It's clear the Chinese absolutely had grape wine. this one source is enough, as it supersedes the older ones with the latest findings.

A quick drive through Google Scholar shows many more sources.

Actually I found several sources from 2017 and 2018.

I only put up 3 of the 2018 sources from professors and peer reviewed journals that explicitly stated the Chinese had wine from grapes at 7000BC and even older...

24.132.187.209 (talk) 08:42, 4 January 2019 (UTC)