User talk:245CMR/Archive 2020

Regarding edits to Karna page
Hello sir. I just saw your message but couodn't locate it. You asked me to give secondary source for making edits. I have a doubt in that. What does secondary source mean sir? Primary means actual authentic text which I provided. I don't know how anything can be more authentic than the actual source itself. Please look into it and conduct the edits on Karna page. I am asking for nothing else. I just want that one page to be corrected. It's a request, please look into it. Dinesh2069 (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Dinesh2069 I was talking about Drupada war, Lakshmanā's swayamvar, etc. To know about primary and secondary sources, see this, WP:NOR 245CMR (talk) 13:08, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

I have seen it. I still don't understand why you need secondary source when there is original available. Dinesh2069 (talk) 06:21, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Dinesh2069, I want secondary sources as it is Wikipedia policy as well as I can't believe on one view, especially regarding controversial and complex topics. I will add about his fights with Chitrasena, Jarasandha and others in a few days but I will not change anything about Draupadi's humiliation. 245CMR (talk) 05:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC) The Swayamvar There are many versions of Draupadi's swayamvar - one in which he failed - another in which Draupadi rejected him. Most manuscripts state that Karna just simply failed or Krishna used his maya. The rejection of Karna is written in the article as note. The rejection of Karna is more popular as many serials showed the caste based rejection for dramatic effect. 245CMR (talk) 06:00, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Primary sources should be used when no secondary sources are there. 245CMR (talk) 07:39, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Do you know what primary source means? It means actual source or proof. The original source. Smh Dinesh2069 (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the information on Karna failing from most sources. I gave actual proof from world renowned Mahabharata translation by Kesari Mohan Ganguli. Neither original article nor your claim about serials making it famous has any proof yet it is taken whereas all my proofs are getting rejected by people who don't even know what primary and secondary source is. Dinesh2069 (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Lastly, why won't you change anything about humiliation? It wasn't sexual in nature. Karna neither did call Draupadi whore. It's blatant exaggeration made at various places in the article to purposely make him look bad. Adding to that Karna did DIGVIJAYA which is not mentioned and many of Karna's feats not mentioned. I tried my best to give actual proof about Draupadi Humiliation which you yourself read. Once again it is primary source which is actual proof. Just tell me if you dislike Karna and simply spreading a propaganda. Dinesh2069 (talk) 22:19, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

User:Dinesh2069 I just checked the policies again. When I used such translations as a citation, an administrator removed it, stating the translation as a primary source.

I don't hate Karna and I am not here to spread propaganda. You can't judge me like that.

Please re-send the topics that you want to add for convenience. I will add them as soon as possible except the game of dice (reason given in the article's talk page). For your further queries, you can contact an administrator. Regards, 👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 05:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC) Regarding your comment "I don't know where you got the information on Karna failing from most sources. I gave actual proof from world renowned Mahabharata translation by Kesari Mohan Ganguli. Neither original article nor your claim about serials making it famous has any proof yet it is taken whereas all my proofs are getting rejected by people who don't even know what primary and secondary source is."

Yes! I was confused but this doesn't mean that I rejected your request on this basis. The serial one was my view. The answer of my rejection is given below.

In the article, it is clearly written that there are different versions:

"This story appears in many versions in different manuscripts and later secondary literature. In some versions, such as one published by Ramesh Chandra Dutt, Draupadi openly rejects Karna because he is the son of a charioteer (suta), something that angers Karna. In another version, found in South Indian texts, Krishna takes the form of a rat and severs the string and thereby prevents Karna from equaling Arjuna's feat. However, all such versions are relatively modern, and according to McGrath who quotes Vishnu Suthankar, appear in "late and inferior or conflated manuscripts". The older critical edition version shows Karna simply failed, just like he and his army ultimately fails in other battles against the Pandavas. For another version of this story in a non-critical edition of the epic, see the summary by Moriz Winternitz."

"According to the Indologist and Mahabharata scholar Mehendale, the story that Draupadi rejected Karna for being a son of "Suta" "does not occur at all in the entire Southern recension, and among the versions of the Northern recension, it does not occur in the Kashmiri, Maithili and Bengali versions". Further, even in Nepali and Devanagari Northern manuscript versions where it is found, it occurs only in a minority of them. It has therefore not been included in the critical edition of the epic that is deemed to more accurately reflect the original."

👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 07:00, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello,

I sincerely apologize to and  for butting in here. Before any changes are made, I'd like to point out a few things.

@Dinesh ji,

There is a reason why Wikipedia does not allow primary sources but we'll come to that later, if the need be. For now, I'd just like to point out 2 things:

1. Kishori Mohan Ganguli's "world-renowned" translation has inconsistency regarding Swayamvar. It mentions both rejection and Karna/Radha's son failing to string the bow. Please feel free to go to sacred-text website again and find the references to Karna's failure. 2. The Sanskrit word Karna used against Draupadi was bandhanki which could mean both unchaste or courtesan. Different translators have translated it differently. Since KMG was a Victorian era man, he used the more polished word.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 07:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC))

First of all, all other pages like Arjuna even has fake folklore about him to glorify him. When it comes to Karna you are using 3-4 indologists and all to just show him in poor light. Secondly Bandhaki means unchaste or courtesan so why not use that word instead of 'whore'. Lastly the humiliation of Draupadi is called sexual time and again. Once again that is wrong. Also just like you said losing at Swayamvara is from secondary source. I also have secondary source from Oriental Research Institute Madrass to Annals of BORI that says vastraharan is fake. Will you remove the incident if I provide them? No offence but there is a huge bias against Karna on wikipedia. Dinesh2069 (talk) 06:46, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

1. Kindly google the meaning of courtesan. Another synonym for courtesan is "prostitute". So, the "whore" word is not off the mark.

2. Second, in one place, Karna tells Draupadi - "Sex with your master is not looked down upon for slaves. So select a master from Kauravas." If this is not clear indication of the "sexual" nature, then I am not sure what is.

3. Some BORI scholars may have argued Vastraharan (especially the magical extension of sari) is interpolation while other scholars have spoken in favour of it. Removing that magical element will not save Karna in anyway...bcoz all the things Karna spoke in the assembly can happen with or without the Vastraharan.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 07:32, 10 October 2020 (UTC))

Also, forgot to mention, failing to string in Swayamvara is not from secondary source. It is very much there in primary sources such as KMG, BORI and Sanskrit Kumbhakonam Edition of Mbh as well. (Panchalidraupadi (talk) 07:41, 10 October 2020 (UTC))

@User:Dinesh2069, I have added the topics that you wanted. Btw, you are not a scholar in Hindu Scriptures. Many scholars have researched and written their conclusions.

Some researchers can't change what has been a part of a culture for centuries. Nobody can tell what is written in the thousand year old text. Hope you have understood. Regards, .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:24, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@panchalidraupadi 1) If the translation uses the word courtsean then I don't know why you want to use whore. I guess just to incite the audience sentiments. 2) I am actually amazed how you analysed and exageratted every word spoken by Karna but left Pandava's scotsfree like Arjuna at the start of Bhagwad Geeta says how without men the women get corrupted and engage in inter caste relation leading everyone to hell. Like I said you have ignored every negative aspect of Pandavas but have focused on Karna. Mainly this second point as you pointed out still is an exageration. 3) It's not some BORI scholar, it's part of Annals of BORI and you yourself spoke of secondary sources and gave 2-3 secondary source, now as I spoke of secondary source you are twisting it as expected. 4) Karna failing in swayamvar is not present in KMG and even BORI doesn't say Karna failed, it just gives passing reference.

Dude, you said give me secondary source and then quoted what some scholars and researchers said about Karna and now as I mentioned the same you are denying and calling researchers wrong. Who are you to decide? You are also not an expert. What you are is some person who managed to become admin or friends with admin on Wikipedia and posting biased statements.

I am not saying change anything, I am just saying if you can keep fake folklore without even credential on Arjuna page then Atleast write about Karna with some dignity but I guess my request just gives sadist pleasure to deny. Dinesh2069 (talk) 10:57, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I am amused at how much you assumed about me, because I have never made any significant contributions to Arjuna/Karna wiki pages as such...nor am I a "fan" of Arjun. In fact I am glad that some of the nonsense folklore glorification has been removed from Arjun wiki page by Wiki admin recently. Anyway, I'd only address 2 points here factually. Whether you accept or not, is your choice. 1. Swayamvar: KMG contains both rejection and references to Karna's failure. The Sanskrit Kumbhakonam Edition of Mbh (a primary source) which is much older than KMG contains Karna's failure not just as passing reference but in detail (no rejection there at all). BORI has retained the reference. So mention of Karna's failure being "passing references" is not relevant here, as General editor, Vishnu Sukthankar and M.A. Mehendale have mentioned it clearly in their notes on the Critical Edition that Karna failed and why they retained the shloka. Regarding KMG, here's one of the two references to failure of Karna (Radha's son) stringing the bow. There's one more in KMG, but I'd leave that for you to find. And that bow which Rukma, Sunitha, Vakra, Radha's son, Duryodhana, Salya, and many other kings accomplished in the science and practice of arms, could not even with great exertion, string, Arjuna, the son of Indra, that foremost of all persons endued with energy and like unto the younger brother of Indra (Vishnu) in might, strung in the twinkling of an eye.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01191.htm

Vastraharan:

First, I personally don't care whether Wiki pages cite unchaste/courtesan or whore. But the reason why Karna wiki reflects "whore" is because it is quoting Indologist Kevin Mcgrath. Second, there is absolutely no exaggeration regarding Karna's words. Try reading other translations apart from KMG, such as Bibek Debroy, Gita Press, S.D. Sadwalekar, etc. The implication of Karna's words is clear. Third, but the MOST important thing. Annals of BORI is a journal published by BORI comprising essays from BORI scholars. BORI scholars were in disagreement regarding Vastraharan among themselves. If they had been 100% sure it is interpolation, they would have removed it from Critical Edition (like they removed Draupadi's rejection of Karna).

So, for the sake of argument, if you plan to cite "secondary sources" from Annals of BORI to prove Vastraharan is interpolation, then please also cite the counter arguments and explain why BORI still retained Vastraharan in the Critical Edition. (Panchalidraupadi (talk) 12:07, 11 October 2020 (UTC))

I havent visited Arjun page lately, but I agree with Dinesh, that folk materials should not be added without credible sources. Could you please look into this?

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 12:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC))

@User:Panchalidraupadi, which section?

@User:Dinesh2069, I am just adding what is written by scholars.

"Biased statements", Really? Just check the articles that I have edited. (I have clearly written that Drona and Bhishma were partial towards the Pandavas.)

Regarding Karna part, I have clearly stated that he was a very powerful warrior who was able to defeat Jarasandha.

"Vastraharan" is now part of Mahabharata as most scholars agree with the event.

Its time to end this as I have added the battles. (Btw, you have only suggested his defeats, so I added his victory too!)

I am also working on Pandavas article to add their plus and negative points. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 14:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Dinesh, you first need to be polite as I am not only the one whom you are having arguments. I have made friends because I try to be polite with them and wanted the same with you. Sorry if you felt bad during the conversations. Regards, .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 14:10, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

My apologies. I just checked Arjuna page now. Things look ok. Last year, there used to be a lot of promotional text in Arjuna page, but now things are more balanced. Only some temples are mentioned.

Maybe Dinesh wants to add similar stuff in Karna's page too. Could you pls look into that?

Only thing is, we should be careful with adding credible sources while adding things outside the Sanskrit primary source. Same with all pages on Mbh.

Thanks (Panchalidraupadi (talk) 14:24, 11 October 2020 (UTC))

Ok, User:Panchalidraupadi .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 14:26, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

All I want changed is atleast one thing, the sexual humiliation part since it isn't true. Does Arjun page contain information saying 'Pandavas sold their wife and let get get sexually humiliated'. No this exagerration is only part of Karna page. I am impolite because I have been asking someone to look into this for almost an year and like I said there seems to be some kind of sadistic pleasure in denying that.

Ps: Vastraharan is retained because it has become popular part of culture. The BORI and all the scholars who created the critical edition still maintain that it is an interpolation. It's clearly given in Annals of BORI. Dinesh2069 (talk) 07:46, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

User:Dinesh2069, We can't do nothing even if Vastraharan is interpolation as it has been a part of culture for centuries. So it is better to leave this topic. Nobody directly knows what is written in the original epic and what is interpolation. Anything can be interpolation, which are not able to trace back. Vastraharan is now part of Mahabharata of various sources, KMG, etc. So, no can't say that the event is fake like 'Andhe ka beta Andha'. Please closed the conversation about the vastraharan.

Coming to the real topic, I didn't find anything like 'Pandavas sold...... humiliated' in the article. May be it is removed earlier. Please guide me where it is written. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:14, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Being part of popular culture for centuries is NOT a criterion for authenticity. When it comes to Mahabharata in academic viewpoint, what matters the most is manuscript evidence. Interpolation or not, Vastraharan appears in all Editions of Mbh, including Critical Edition, and that is the reason why BORI could not do away with it, despite their views, when they boldly removed many other stories from Critical Edition which are also famous in popular culture. We cannot do away with Vastraharan from Wiki pages for the same reason.

And I think you misunderstood Dinesh's words about "Pandavas sold…" Read his words again pls. :)

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 09:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC))

Oh, ok, is he saying that the article doesn't state that Yudhishthira gambled his wife and got her sexually humiliated? Sorry that I misunderstood. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:42, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes. :) Panchalidraupadi (talk) 10:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok, Arjuna article lacks details and I am working on it. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:58, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok. :) Panchalidraupadi (talk) 11:00, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Hello
Hi there,

I have been noticing your edits to Mahabharata related pages. Thanks for your valuable contribution. I have been keeping busy off-late, so cannot take care of the vandalism always as I did before. Thanks for keeping things in check. :)

If you need anything, please lemme know.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 18:46, 20 September 2020 (UTC))

Welcome 😀 245CMR (talk) 02:47, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello,

I needed to discuss about some sources that you added in some pages. We needed to have a second look, if you dont mind. :)

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 07:36, 3 October 2020 (UTC))

Ok 👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 08:03, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Also,, please do check my comments I made in the other conversation about Karna edits regarding Swayamvara. :)

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 09:22, 3 October 2020 (UTC))

Panchalidraupadi, I am not sure which one are you talking about. Are you referring to this -Talk:Draupadi/Archive 1. If no, then please clarify. Regards :), 👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

No, I am referring to the discussion you are having with user Dinesh about Karna page edits in your own talk page. I have made some comments there about Karna failing to string the bow.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 09:40, 3 October 2020 (UTC))

Oh ok! Yes Panchalidraupadi, I have read them. 👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:45, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I am confused regarding the Humiliation, however I think that Karna verbally attacked Draupadi and different words are used in different translations. 👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:48, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Karna's participation in Draupadi's Swayamvara can be a little confusing for new readers. Let me explain to you in short. Actually, Sanskrit Mahabharata has 2 branches:

Northern Recension (NR) and Southern Recension (SR). NR is basically the collection of manuscripts of the Sanskrit epic found in North Indian alphabet system of Sanskrit such as Devanagari, Bengali, etc. Whereas SR are manuscripts from South in Telugu, Malayalam, etc. It is to be understood that Sanskrit language does not have its own "script" and thus can be written in Bengali, Devanagari, Tamil, Telugu, etc letters. That is how the Recensions are categorized.

Now, in some Northern manuscripts, both rejection and failure of Karna are mentioned. Whereas in other Northern manuscripts as well as in South, only his failure is mentioned in detail.

Now, Kishori Mohan Ganguli which user Dinesh cited belongs to Northern Recension (and thus mentions both rejection and failure). He seems to be mistaken that KM Ganguli's translation is the only and ultimate primary source for Mahabharata, but it is not. It is the most famous because it is the only complete translation available for free in public domain right now. This is why this version has been used extensively TV serials, modern novelists, etc.

The note given in Karna wiki page is correct, and addresses the inconsistency regarding Swayamvara. But for someone who is accustomed to only one version, I understand, it can be a bit confusing.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 10:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC))

Regarding the Vastraharan sequence, yes Karna did verbally attack Draupadi...and said many other things as well, apart from unchaste/courtesan. Translators might use different words but the implication of his expression is clear.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 10:16, 3 October 2020 (UTC))

Panchalidraupadi, thank you very much for clearing my doubts and your efforts. Now I understand what the root cause is. I think Dinesh needs to see this. 👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:23, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I have a question whether Karna studied under Drona with the princes or not? Or are there many versions. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 11:00, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Karna studied under Drona and Kripa with the princes in all primary sources of Mahabharata in the initial years. But when Karna asked for knowledge of Brahmastra to defeat Arjun (which Drona had provided to Arjun and Ashwathama only), Drona refused. Only after that, Karna left and joined Parshuram's ashram.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 11:07, 12 October 2020 (UTC))

Thank you very much 😄 .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 11:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

No problem. :) Ping me on my talkpage if you need anything else.

(Panchalidraupadi (talk) 11:11, 12 October 2020 (UTC))

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July 2020
Please do not add or change content, as you did at Bhūmi, without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. - Arjayay (talk) 10:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing. If you continue to remove maintenance templates without resolving the problem that the template refers to, as you did at Bhūmi, you may be blocked from editing. - Arjayay (talk) 12:53, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Ok, Thank you Arajay for your guidance. From now, I will cite a reliable source while editing. Thank you very much. 245CMR (talk) 06:34, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

September 2020
Your edit to Jambavan has been removed in whole or in part, as it appears to have added copyrighted material to Wikipedia without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. If you are the copyright holder, please read Donating copyrighted materials for more information on uploading your material to Wikipedia. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted material, including text or images from print publications or from other websites, without an appropriate and verifiable license. All such contributions will be deleted. You may use external websites or publications as a source of information, but not as a source of content, such as sentences or images&mdash;you must write using your own words. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously, and persistent violators of our copyright policy will be blocked from editing. See Copying text from other sources for more information. — Diannaa (talk) 12:23, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Diannaa, sorry for that, but I just restored the content from the history of the article. The content was was removed as it was unsourced. I didn't know that it was copied from other sources and added back. 245CMR (talk) 12:38, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I have undone the revision deletion, since I can't tell which website had it first - Wikipedia or the other website. Please don't re-add unsourced content you find in old revisions. Wikipedia is well past the point where we are accepting unsourced material. Thanks.— Diannaa (talk) 12:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Diannaa, hello ma'am. I want to tell that many articles have been left stubs as the unsourced info was removed. I have found sources but can't bring back them from the history. Could you suggest alternative ways. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 12:00, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand the question. If you have sourced content you wish to add to an article, please go ahead and do so.— Diannaa (talk) 13:07, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Ma'am, articles like Dasharatha and Kaikeyi used to have large content, but with no reference. A user removed the info as it was unsourced, but I want to add the content back with ref. In the previous situation, I added content in the article Jambavan from its history but you gave me a warning regarding copyright. I am afraid that I might be blocked from editing if similar situation occurs. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 16:20, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

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October
Hello, I'm MRRaja001. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions&#32;to Lakshmi have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use your sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse. Thanks. MRRaja001 (talk) 10:02, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Hi MRRaja001. Sorry, I don't know which experiment are you talking about. Are you talking about removal of Durga and Bhagavati .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:07, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

MRRaja001 please reply .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes - MRRaja001 (talk) 10:32, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

This is not experiment .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

But a fact, Durga and Lakshmi can be related in some culture, but this doesn't mean that Durga is an alias of Lakshmi. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)
 * In many culture Lakshmi Vahana is Lion. You can check the references which i added to it. - MRRaja001 (talk) 12:27, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Ok, but the reference state that it is regional. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 12:47, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The first book 'Rituals, Folk Beliefs, and Magical Arts of Sri Lanka, is based on folk legends of Sri Lanka.
 * The book may be about Folk Legends, but the quote is not about Sri Lanka Folk Legend. They first gave overview saying that Lion is Vahana of both Lakshmi and Parvati. - MRRaja001 (talk) 13:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The second book 'Sakti Iconography', "In some places Gazalakshmi also has been given Lion as her Vahana. In South India Vara Lakshmi, one of the forms of eight Lakshmis is having Lion as her Vahana. In Rameshwaram also for Veera Lakshmi Lion is Vahana.", states that it is south indian
 * Isn't South India part of India? - MRRaja001 (talk) 13:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

The third ref 'Journal, Volumes 6-7' "From the occurrence of cornucopiae, lotus flower and lion mount the goddess has been described as Lakshmi - Ambikā — a composite icon combining the concepts of Śrī or Lakshmi , the goddess of prosperity , and Ambikā , the mother aspect of Durga., states that it is attributed to combination. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 12:55, 19 October 2020 (UTC)


 * May be but it's saying Lion is Vahana of Lakshmi. - MRRaja001 (talk) 13:06, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes South India is part of India, but this is not the reason. I am saying this because the source clearly says Veera Lakshmi, who is one of Ashta Lakshmi. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 13:14, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Please consider to move "lion as her mount" in the body the article instead of infobox. We can't add every single info about her in the Infobox. It should be brief.

Horse, eagle, lion, etc. are considered mounts of different Ashtalakshmi. .👨🏻‍🎨 💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 14:01, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

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Regarding Durga page
Hi 245CMR, i've added you to WP:DRN - Here's the link for it. Please participate there let's resolve the issue. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 13:39, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I will but tomorrow as I am busy right now. Sorry for inconvenience. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 15:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Please add your opinion on WP:DRN. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 14:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 15:50, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

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Page moves
Thank you for your help with page moves. When you move a page per a Requested move discussion, as you did at Talk:Yajnaseni (novel), please close the request by following the instructions at WP:RMCI. Thanks again!  P.I. Ellsworth   ed.  put'r there 06:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for your guidance. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy Diwali!
Thank you .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy Deepawali !
Thank you .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 10:41, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy Divali!
Thank you .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 15:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Happy Diwali 2020
Thank you and same to you :-) .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

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Ravana
Can you let me edit the Ravana's page? If not, I'll Tell you the information and edit it yourself. Rana Asuthosh (talk) 15:37, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Sure! You can edit it yourself or feel free to ask me. But please remember to give proper reference. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 16:32, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to tell that Ravana article is semi protected.

For more info, see WP:PP .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 05:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Don't worry about it! I'll tell you more information about Ravana later. Rana Asuthosh (talk) 03:06, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Also Ravan is avatar of kali (demon) the opposite of vishnu Rana Asuthosh (talk) 03:07, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Pls provide sources and there are multiple stories regarding his previous birth including Jaya Vijaya, etc. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 04:57, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Actually it's said in Kalki Purana. My sister told me about it! Kali (demon) is the nemesis of Vishnu and he opposed him every way he possibly can. In satya yuga He was incarnated as a demon who Stole Brahma's knowledge that should be given to humanity and he was slain by Vishnu in matsya avatar, and he incarnated again as Rahu in samudra manthan and he was slain lord Vishnu, after that he was incarnated as Hiranyaksha and he slain by varaha. (I don't know about this but My sister and few other people said that Hiranyakashipu is an avatar of Kali as well.) It doesn't make that much sense but he didn't incarnate but he possessed Hiranyakashipu and made him evil. After that he incarnated as a Gandharva and created war which was stopped by Parushu Rama. In Gandharva Avatar he wanted to marry a Gandharva princess named Varuthini but she rejected him, so he took the form of Varuthini's Crush Pravara. He married varuthini and they had a child but kali already had 2 other wives. In Treta Yuga Kali was incarnated as Dashanan also known as Ravana and he was slain by Rama and after abducting His wife Sati. In Dvapara he was incarnated as Duryodhana. He was killed not by krishna but because of Krishna. Because kali prayed to Brahma and he obtained a boon not to be killed by Vishnu's avatars in Dvapara Yuga. After that it was Parikshit and in the beginning of Kali Yuga he was incarnated as a Winged Serpent (The great red dragon). In Kali Yuga the mleccha dharma (Western Religions) was born and this time Kali was defeated by Krishna's cursed son (I'm not sure what the curse was). He Was also hated by other demons and even by Brahma himself. Rana Asuthosh (talk) 09:21, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

But you can't add this without any citation. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:30, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

See Citing sources .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:31, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

And also names should be added in the etymology section. Reference should be reliable too .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:32, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

See WP:Reliable sources .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:33, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Okay Rana Asuthosh (talk) 09:34, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

.💠245CMR💠. I know and I already read it but jaya Vijaya took places of Kali's avatars so it's confusing to write. Rana Asuthosh (talk) 09:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I'll juts leave it as it is then... Rana Asuthosh (talk) 09:37, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

I think Jaya Vijaya one is more popular than Kali. But these theories are hardly mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:38, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Well I'm not arguing but that's what it said in Kalki Purana. Kali has 10 Avatars just like Vishnu. A ghoul-like-demon who was born to One of daksha's Daughters, Rahu And Ketu, Hiranyaksha And Hiranyakashipu, Vishatha (Gandharava), Ravana and finally Duryodhana. The other avatars are currently unknown because they're not clearly mentioned but one of them is a winged serpent (Dragon). Rana Asuthosh (talk) 09:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

May be you should mention this Kali (demon) article, .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 09:57, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Kali already has an article. Check this Kali (Demon) Rana Asuthosh (talk) 10:08, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

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User:Sphilbrick May be the website has copied the info from Wikipedia. This is the proof, the blog was published in 2011 whereas these information were on Wikipedia from 2008. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 14:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

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Regarding Durga page 2
Why are you removing the note on Durga page and correcting according to your wish. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 15:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I think a note about the consort should be in the consort section. It is not necessary that she is unmarried in Vaishnava only. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 15:51, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Durga being an avatar of Lakshmi is already mentioned in the lead. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 15:53, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Besides this topic, do you know a copy editor who can help me. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 15:54, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Why is it necessary. Not only in Vaishnavism even in some Shaivism traditions Durga is considered as a celibate goddess. It's better to add back note. You're always supporting Shaivism views. Better be neutral. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 17:08, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

That's what I am trying to explain .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:13, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

That's what I wanted to tell that she is considered a celibate goddess not only in Vaishnavism but in some other groups too. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:14, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

BTW, I haven't removed the note .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:15, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Just rm extra repeating info .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Add it back and along with that add some more note, saying ...Not only in Vaishnavism but even in some other traditions she is considered as a Celibate goddess.. Removing sentence doesn't make sense. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 17:19, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Mentioned already that some other also regard her!!!!!!!!!!!! .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:21, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Then what is the majority you're talking about in the note. Majority of Indians are Vaishnavas not Shaktas or Shaivas. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 17:33, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I am taking about sects not population. Durga is not only veiwed in Shakta and Shaivas, but also in some group of Vaishnavism .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Even some Shaivas consider Durga as Celibate. This doesn't make any sense. see this for Hindu traditions percentage -  MRRaja001  (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I know that. I have not Said that only one believes her to be celibate. I have clearly stated it .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

What's the problem There are multiple sects (denominations) of Hinduism which regard her as Shiva's consort. On the other there are Sects which doesn't. It is balanced  .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:46, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Almost 70-75% of Hindus are Vaishnavas. Even many Shaivas in South India consider her as Celibate goddess. It doesn't make any sense to write like that. Please add back the sentence which we wrote first along with additional sentence. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 17:47, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

It is not about being the largest, it's about no. of denominations which regard her as Shiva's consort .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:56, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

, that's what I am trying to explain .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:57, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Now it's time for us to sleep, will continue tom .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:03, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Can you please show me citations saying Vaishnavism also consider Durga as consert of Shiva. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 18:04, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I didn't say that all Vaishnavism regards Durga as Shiva's wife. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:06, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

the Majority is referring to two sects in front of one. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:07, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I didn't get you. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 18:16, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

See this diagram
 * S1 = Shaivas
 * S2 = Shaktas
 * S3 = other minor groups
 * H1 = Vaishnavism
 * H2 = other groups

Compare them
 * S1 + S2 + S3 > H1 + H2
 * (Majority as per no. of denominations)

.💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:23, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Please revert back the note. Why are you simply nagging the things. Or do one thing add two notes. Change it like this Shiva or Celibate on Shiva add note as note 1:Shaivism and Shaktism consider Durga as Consert of Shiva and add Vaishnavism note to Celibate. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 18:27, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

This not about population .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:27, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

fine! .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

then other gods should not be exceptions especially Kartikeya .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:30, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Better to leave like this .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:31, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

If this case is followed in each article, then only Devasena should be added. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Let's discuss about it too tomorrow. Good Night -  MRRaja001  (talk) 18:37, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I have added what you wanted, I think discussion is over now. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Good Night 😴 .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:40, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

December 2020
Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, articles should not be moved, as you did to Gandhari, without good reason. They should have a name that is both accurate and intuitive. Wikipedia has some guidelines in place to help with this. Generally, a page should only be moved to a new title if the current name doesn't follow these guidelines. Also, if a page move is being discussed, consensus needs to be reached before anybody moves the page. If you would like to experiment with page titles and moving, please use the test Wikipedia. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. ''I've reverted the move you made per a request made at the RMT. If you want to move any article to this title, please use the appropriate mode by initiating a requested move.'' ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:17, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I moved the page to Gandhari (disambiguation) so that I can move Gandhari (Mahabharata) to Gandhari. The reason is simple that the word Gandhari is widely used for the character. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 18:42, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , If you initiate a RM and gain a consensus in establishing the fact that Gandhari (Mahabharata) deserves the primary slot, I would be happy to help. If the case is otherwise then default location is for the dab page. Regards, ─ The Aafī   (talk)|undefined  18:46, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

ok .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 04:54, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Recent edit reversion 2
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ok, sorry for my inconvenience. .💠 245CMR💠 . •👥📜 17:44, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!
Thank you very much, this is my first Barnstar and I can't express how happy I am. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 12:53, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

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Lakshmi
Please state the issues on article talk so an discussion about the same can be done. -- Redtigerxyz Talk 15:54, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok, but there are a lot of things to point out, so I will add this tom. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 16:29, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Regarding Lakshmi page
Hi 245CMR, why did you remove Adi Shakti from the infobox in the Lakshmi page. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 04:54, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

The Adi Shakti can be used for so many goddesses (or even all), and it will be very confusing for users to understand the term, so it is better to remove the term. Even many encyclopaedia doesn't include the term at all.

Note: Don't accuse me that I supporting one sect, as I have removed that from Parvati too. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 06:13, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Oh, Okay. I have rearranged Adi Parashakti page to make it neutral. Did you see it. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 06:26, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok, thanks but you were not 100% correct, so I did minor cleanups. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 07:22, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about Lakshmi and Radha
Hey 245CMR, Is Radha avatar of Lakshmi? -  MRRaja001  (talk) 06:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Both yes and no. It depends on sects: .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 07:14, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Reasons for Yes
 * Many sects of Vaishnavism consider Radha as an avatar of Lakshmi as Krishna is an avatar of Vishnu.
 * These include Nimbarka Sampradaya
 * Reasons for No
 * The Chaitanya sects of Vaishnavism consider Lakshmi as an avatar of Radha rather than Radha being an avatar of Lakshmi.
 * They also consider Radha as the feminine half of Krishna.


 * I am curious to know which Sampradaya do you belong to Vallabha or Nimbarka. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 07:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

I am just a Vaishnava, that's what I can disclose. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 08:06, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * I am not asking to talk against you. I just wanted to collaborate with others to fill the gaps in our Hinduism. Because see Nimbarkacharya doesn't have article, why shouldn't you write article on him. You are from North India right. Which Vaishnava Philosopher is most popular there. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 08:32, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, it would be inconvenient for me, because :
 * I try to stay away from historical figures and have very less info about saints and philosophers.
 * I mainly focus on Mahabharata, Ramayana and deities. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 08:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Okay, fine. If you are so much interested in Mahabharata and Ramayana, i would suggest you to read Mahabharata Tatparya Nirnaya, a full commentary on Mahabharata written by Madhvacharya. It will help you understand crux or Mahabharata. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 08:44, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you very much .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 08:47, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Can you please tell me whether Nimbarkacharya and Vallabhacharya write their commentaries on Prasthanatrayi. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 09:06, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * No idea 😔 .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 09:08, 19 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Okay. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 09:42, 19 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about Goddess Lakshmi
Hi 245CMR, I found a book of Lakshmi Tantra. Please read this, Go through the pages 19 to 24. Here Goddess Lakshmi is clearly saying that she is Durga, She is Mahakali, She is MahaLakshmi and She is Mahasaraswati and so on. If you want to know only about this go directly to page 23. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 14:32, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Ok,  .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 14:51, 20 December 2020 (UTC)


 * ping me once completed reading. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 14:58, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

read it and added info related to it in the article. It is possible that I may not be able to reply as my phone's battery is dead. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 15:09, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Okay. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi, i found full book of Lakshmi Tantra please go directly to page 69 and go on reading you'll come to know that Durga, Mahakali, Mahalakshmi, Mahavidya and all the forms that came out as energies from all devatas is Lakshmi herself in Devi Mahatmya. Atleast now start adding Vaishnava perspective based on this pancharatra text in articles related to Adi Parashakti and all devi articles. I am telling you all these because you're active on all these articles. Thank You. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 04:07, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Lakshmi and Durga forms

Ok I will try to add in the bodies of the articles. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 05:17, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Why did you correct the sentence on the Lakshmi page. What is this you are completely changing the meaning of what i am writing. Lakshmi in her Durga form manifested as Mahalakshmi, Mahakali and Mahasaraswati. Do you know the story of Durga devi in Devimahatmya. If you know you won't write like this. This Mahalakshmi is not the main Mahalakshmi of Lakshmi. It is a form that came from Durga a form of Lakshmi. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 15:14, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

LET ME RECHECK THE SOURCE AGAIN (TOMORROW). .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 18:07, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Hi
Yo I Think You're The Only Guy In Wikipedia That Knows About Hinduism Lol You Provide Actual Info From The Actual Scripture You're Awesome Man Unlike Those Arrogant Westerners That Doesn't Know A Bit About Hinduism Weeabo-kun2198 (talk) 19:55, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, but I am not alone. Many other users know about Hinduism better than me. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 03:08, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

I tried to edit shree Hari Narayan page by providing the Orginal source then a another named woug SaId WE DonT USe REliGoUs Sources Only Secondaries Sources And I Was Like What? We're talking about a religious figure here not on politics and war and i realized that guy was American and didn't knew a bit about Hinduism what a arrogant fool he is Weeabo-kun2198 (talk) 09:20, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Then a another guy named Woug SaId* Weeabo-kun2198 (talk) 09:21, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

@Doug Weller See Dude? This what an guy who is educated in Hinduism looks like and doesn't accuse anyone Weeabo-kun2198 (talk) 20:54, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

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Discussion about Krishna being omnipotent
Hmm So Some People In Powerlisting Wikipedia Are Saying Krishna Is Not All Powerful And He Isn't ParaBrahman And Is An Tiny Part Of Brahman All Of These Claims Are Made By Westerners What Do You Think? All Though This Topic Itself Is Kind Of Stupid Since Krishna Himself Said That That He Is All Powerful And Parabrahman But Who Can Tell These Arrogant Westerners Who Thinks That Krishna Isn't All Powerful https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence?commentId=4400000000000300211 here's the theard they will not listen if i provide them Orginal sources from the scriptures or secondary primary sources Weeabo-kun2198 (talk) 20:26, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

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Happy Merry Christmas!
Happy merry Christmas Man Good wishes to your family love ones Weeabo-kun2198 (talk) 19:35, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas! .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 10:41, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Merry Christmas!
 Merry Christmas! Joyeux Noël! ~ Buon Natale! ~ Vrolijk Kerstfeest! ~ Frohe Weihnachten! ¡Feliz Navidad! ~ Feliz Natal! ~ Καλά Χριστούγεννα! ~ Hyvää Joulua! God Jul! ~ Glædelig Jul! ~ Linksmų Kalėdų! ~ Priecīgus Ziemassvētkus! Häid Jõule! ~ Wesołych Świąt! ~ Boldog Karácsonyt! ~ Veselé Vánoce! Veselé Vianoce! ~ Crăciun Fericit! ~ Sretan Božić! ~ С Рождеством! শুভ বড়দিন! ~ 圣诞节快乐！~ メリークリスマス！~ 메리 크리스마스! สุขสันต์วันคริสต์มาส! ~ Selamat Hari Natal! ~ Giáng sinh an lành! Hello, 245CMR! Thank you for your work to maintain and improve Wikipedia! Wishing you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 15:30, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Spread the WikiLove and leave other users this message by adding {{subst:Multi-language Season's Greetings}}

A barnstar for you!
Thank you very much, this is the best x mas gift. :) .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 17:47, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!
Thank you very much and I am very grateful for your support.☺️ I will surely live up to your expectations.

But, right now, I don't deserve this barnstar for Vaishno Devi Temple, as I have made insignificant contributions to the article. From tommorow, I will start the re construction of the article. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 14:12, 27 December 2020 (UTC)

Once again, thank you very much.

Regarding Durga page
Hi 245CMR, Please reply on Redtigerxyz talk page. -  MRRaja001  (talk) 16:56, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your efforts to improve Vaishno Devi Temple. .💠 245CMR 💠. •👥📜 17:19, 28 December 2020 (UTC)