User talk:2603:7080:A5F0:8C50:4825:A424:2B82:11F0

Naoto Shirogane
You seem to have a misunderstanding of how this works. The fact that a majority of people believe one thing, and even the fact that the game does not treat her as a trans man, is not a justification to declare that a minority viewpoint not be represented. The fact that there's a paragraph about it is due to the fact that multiple reliable sources had significant coverage of Naoto under a trans lens. If you think that this content should be removed, I invite you to open a discussion on the talk page and/or the video game characters task force. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Reliable in what way? They're random blogs with no notability. The viewpoint is represented in the way it should be and the person who added all those 'sources' to begin with had an agenda. You come off as you want to leave your mark on the article rather than reflecting the actual consensus with due weight. 2603:7080:A5F0:8C50:4825:A424:2B82:11F0 (talk) 18:28, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The only one that's a "random blog" is Mattie Brice, someone who's frequently featured among the staff of reliable sources and a subject matter expert. The others are GameSpot, Vice, and a published book. I strongly suggest that you be more mindful of the content you are adding or deleting, as this seems a little hasty on your part. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:32, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * How are any of them reliable? The most reliable sources are the people who made the game. Anyone could give their own two cents, no matter how widely disagreed with or ridiculous it is. Why should a few opinion pieces misinterpreting the character dominate the reception section? A few sentences is plenty. She is not widely seen as 'trans' even amongst tumblr users. Giving it that much weight is not an accurate representation. At the very least we could feature a few counter-criticisms? Like how Naoto's story is more adjacent to Mulan's, or how the game says nothing about her wanting to transition? 2603:7080:A5F0:8C50:4825:A424:2B82:11F0 (talk) 18:45, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The people who made the game are not the people who are cited in this section. Please refer to WP:RS. Also, none of the Reception section is people claiming that Naoto is a trans man, merely their interpretation of Naoto and disappointment in the way her story was handled. As far as counterpoints, I'm all for those, but they need to exist in reliable sources. The link to the sources page has a list of sites considered reliable, as well as custom Google search engines. I couldn't find much if any content that interpreted her character in that way. But hey, I wrote this a while ago, so maybe something like that has surfaced, and I encourage you to find them. I'll even add them to the article if you find anything. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:49, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * You're obviously editing the article to suit your narrative. The "she isn't a trans man" article goes away when you add the LGBT character to a character who isn't even ambigously one.
 * I am not against transgender characters. I am against repurposing a few criticisms to support a false notion if a character as if it has some weight 2603:7080:A5F0:8C50:C554:4FD5:5872:7BFA (talk) 18:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Now, the fact that you had to preface that you're not anti-trans is weird, since all I've done is explain how reliable sourcing works is weird. Anyway, I have no idea what the first line is meant to be saying. She is under the category of women in video games, the article uses she/her pronouns to refer to her, and outside of reception, she is never described as transgender, because that's interpreted subtext, not text. I don't know what you want me to do aside from remove reliable secondary sources discussing Naoto under this lens, which I will not do. I encourage you to find citations for the notion of Naoto being a Mulan-type character, I've given you the tools. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:03, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Okay. Can we at least compromise and remove her from the LGBT category? She is the sole exception I've seen for characters on this website and you just recently added that. 2603:7080:A5F0:8C50:C554:4FD5:5872:7BFA (talk) 19:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The category only has one character because this is a very specific edge case. She's not an LGBT character, but unlike Chie and Yukiko who maybe one reliable source (if any) talk about them in that way, Naoto's notability is largely because of the interpretation of her as a trans man. Thus, Naoto as a character may be of interest to someone interested in LGBT and video games. Otherwise, there's very little in the way of characters who received significant discussion of them as an LGBT character without canonically being LGBT, so there's not really a subcategory that could be made. Tell you what though - I'll make a discussion on the talk page for you, and I'll post a notice to WT:VG/VGC about it. If there's consensus to remove the category, I'll gladly nix it. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 19:11, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Also, articles specifically about Naoto will be more likely to be strong content for inclusion, so search "intitle:"Naoto" "Persona 4"" (without the outer quotation marks) first. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 18:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)