User talk:31.20.246.61

Sacrifice
I'm not an expert in Christian doctrine, and your position may be widely held, but do you have a published source for this interpretation of what "sacrifice" refers to? 67.180.143.89 (talk) 00:38, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I'd say it isn't an interpretation, since the letter of Hebrews quite literally explains this analogy, citing the old Testament while doing so. Of course I understand that, when it comes to the Bible, there are many interpretations which places any encyclopedic definition always in a bit of a grey area. But yes, I'd say the Bible itself is the source, that's why I clearly mentioned 'In the Bible', as opposed to Christian denominations and their theological interpretations.
 * In case you need more thorough proof of this source:
 * - Hebrews 8
 * For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices
 * It requires one to be a high priest to offer and sacrifice
 * - Hebrews 8
 * For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
 * Jesus was no priest when on earth, so his earthly crucifixion could not have been the sacrifice.
 * - Hebrews 8
 * But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
 * Now, referring to his current position after the resurrection, he obtained a ministry: now he is a high priest.
 * - Hebrews 6
 * Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
 * Indeed: the resurrected Jesus is high priest after the order of Melchisedec. So He can make a sacrifice in that position.
 * - Hebrews 7
 * ''But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
 * Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
 * For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
 * Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.''
 * And finally here it says that this high priest offered up himself.
 * As you can see, it's not an interpretation, but rather a literal reading of the text. 31.20.246.61 (talk) 12:33, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

I removed the passage that you objected to from the Crucifixion article, first because the source that the article already cited didn't check out, and second because the subject of atonement is treated in more detail later in the article. There is a variety of theological opinion about when exactly the "sacrifice" occurred, and I appreciate you pointing out the oversimplification. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 01:16, 3 April 2023 (UTC)


 * That seems like a fair solution. Still, we have to be careful to distinguish what the Bible says and what theologians say. That's why I pointed out in a separate segment how the sacrifice is described in the Bible (as I here thoroughly cited from Hebrews). That's just as clear as any book making any description of a particular act or ritual. So I believe we really need to add the Bible's description of "sacrifice", and we can place that along theologians descriptions of "sacrifice". 31.20.246.61 (talk) 08:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)