User talk:4d-don

Hi..

My name is Don, I am a retired 63 year old Acadian. I live on the West Coast of Canada with my Dog. I have 2 boys (both techies, one with his own business) and three grand-children. I use the Web to gather and put out information and try and respect other people's opinion and now insist that all our institutions adhere to a protocol of "truth and the whole truth"...That is why I enjoy Wikipedia. It is finallly the "equalization" of the flow of information and the empowerment of the last disempowered estate: the common person. Marshall Mcluhan would be proud....We don't have to "get fooled again"

Information will set us free! Let us do it in a civilized and respectful manner!

4d-don

A Late Welcome
Bien venue, Salut, Hello, welcome to Wikipedia.

You might find these links helpful in creating new pages or helping with the above tasks: How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Naming conventions, Manual of Style. You should read our policies at some point too.

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Again, welcome! --Jondel 03:01, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

French
Vous parlez francais?(Do you speak French?) 'Cajun' doesn't refer to all Canadians does it? How many humans does your dog own? Sorry about the last one. Did you reach the time when they used latin in Church? BTW if you know any Catholic who is heavy into Yoga, please let me know. --Jondel 07:43, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Salut John...

Oui, je suis Acadien (cajun)...English is my second language but I am fluently bilingual having worked in French in Quebec (that's sort of French. we call it jwal (a slur/slang of Cheval-horse) lol), and English with the Royal Bank of Canada for many years. I attended primary school in French, High School in English and University in French, then business in English. "Cajun" is a slang for "Acadian" which were french settlers who lived in Acadia (what is now Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and New-Brunswick) until 1755, when most were deported to Europe, Africa, and Louisianna (after King Louis of France) where they went to live in the swamps with runaway slaves and other "undesireables" and became the "cajuns". Our Family and many Acadians were running from france because of the "protestant" reformation in the Catholic Church. We were "huguenots" or protestants. We moved to Acadia in 1641. One generation later, we were catholics again. Catholic church controlled the birth, marriage, school, hospital, death and afterlife,  etc...  My forefathers hid in the hills of New brunswick and avoided the "deportation".

My dog, a Great Pyrenae, thinks she owns everyone. They were bred to guard sheep in the mountains of Europe and are called "guardian dogs". Gentle but smart. I live in the country on acreage and my dog will tree a bear if it comes too close. She will not kill it, just tree it or send it away. They are known to let a predator on the property but not let it leave by "attack and retreat" until the predator climbs a tree or just gives up. Very smart. She owns the whole neighbourhood with the neighbour's male, also a Great Pyrenae. They always expand their territory, so they demand that I establish the bounderies (urinating) constantly...LOL

Yes I was a seminarian for 2 years during the latin period of the Catholic Church. That was when Chrisianity "qui laetificat juventutem meam" (was the joy of my youth). I thought after the Christian abuses (sexual, physical, and financial), which I saw and experienced first hand as I became a Banker after leaving the seminary, that I was getting into Raja Yoga with Sahaj Marg. It was sort of that at first but Babuji's death caused me to leave after meeting Chari. Lalaji (a sufi) and Babuji were genuine seekers. Michael is also a practicing Catholic who got into Sahaj Marg for the same reason (the Raja Yoga), and is now again into Catholicism as a "cafeteria" catholic. ie. To do good deeds and not get into the "structure". So he helps out with "inner city" problems in Austin Texas with a catholic priest who does not like the Catholic structure also....

Since I moved to the country, I meet very few people into "spirituality" or "religion" except the Natives (aboriginals)and the New Agers, specially Raja Yoga (mostly loggers and fishermen and retirees who are not into anything) Do you mean Raja, Hatha or other ???....But if I do I will steer them your way....

P.S. see my translation of my "latin" and tell me if you agree with my grammar and choice of word...on the Sahaj Marg site...I sent you a comment with my translation....

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...

4d-don

Petite
== Petite et accipietis;quaerite et invenietis;pulsate et aperietur vobis ==

Ask and you shall receive, Seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened! Salve! Laudatum tuam mihi amo. Thank you for your complimenht. (I love your praise, literrally). You should visit la.wikipeida.org. I wish (Velim) I had more time to study the language. I saw your reply on latin by the way at the S. M. discussion page. --Jondel 07:40, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Interlingua
Que pensa tu de iste lingua? Es multo facil leger, non? Specialmente si cognosce latin o lingua romantica como spaniol, frances, italiano. Io ama iste lingua et latin etiam. --Jondel 08:09, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Ave Johanes...

Amo latinum. Etiam est multo facile. Etiam. France est ligua romantica. Etiam. Non sum eloquens in latinum. vel...EGO sum non facundus tamen EGO mos perceptum.

salus....Ave...

--don 23:13, 5 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Non sum facundus either, I mean etiam . Neque eloquens. There a lot of amateur latin enthusiasts over at the latin wiki. But I like languages, French, Latin etc. --Jondel 00:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Serious Meditation
Sahaj really introduced me to serious meditation. I was planning to join TM. --Jondel 04:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Sahaj Marg was serious Meditation...NOT
Sahaj used to be serious meditation. It is now "obey" the guru and the Structure and empowers what you focus on. Where it was a 16 circles of the material to get to the Divine, it is now the Whispers from the Brighter World which is really "spiritualism" Where is Houdini? To debunk it? LOL I see the abhyasis disempowered, without dreams of their own and their goals become Chari's or the SRCM's  goals. That is not serious meditation. Serious meditation is contact with the Spirit, the divine, not Chari or SRCM, those are material things and egoistical people. Just my experience and my opinion.

Peace...Pace nobis Domine...

don.

Please Consider This
Hi Don,

Josh here. I have a question. Are there any more blogs other than the ones that you have listed as being "just a few?" I removed "just a few" from your post when I thought that I had added every single one that there is. If you know of any more, put them on. If you don't, perhaps remove the "just a few." Also, I wonder whether it belongs over the rest of the entries. It is basically a statement saying that this is not the place to discuss Sahaj Marg -- pro or con, and lists ways to discuss it through other avenues. But I find that although you wrote that, you still give opinions of Sahaj Marg on the discussion page. Also, if one were to write the mission to request permission to promote Sahaj Marg (as you have suggested), it would be denied, because it is quite clearly against the mission's constitution, written by Babuji, by which the mission is bound to abide, in order to qualify for its status with the government. So that suggestion is needless, due to these facts. Anyway, I don't think I will change that post again, but I do ask you to please consider these issues. I used to get very upset with your postings, and I still am uncomfortable with some of them, but they do not disturb me so much any more, and I see your perspective more clearly, though I am not any less loyal of an abhyasi. I do think that we are all learning from one another, which is valuable. Peace -- Josh

Considered and changed
Hi Josh..

Thanks for the input...I will change "a few" to "some". It is unfortunate that once someone start "proselytizing" the reaction is to "give opinions" to counter. I will refrain if all refrain....That is the reason for the post in the "Notice Section" of the page...I will keep my opinions in my and other blogs on line...Here I will remain "encyclopedic" and not get into the value of Sahaj Marg as a spiritual discipline. But I will give my opinion on the encyclopedic value, accuracy, verifiability of the information. Hope we don't get more "proselytizers" on this page..

Thanks for your civility this time...(no more "frog" jokes or other racial slurs)...Having been a "minority" (Acadian) in my country, I am used to it and I can take it (and would let it exist) but it does not reflect well on Sahaj Marg as a Spiritual discipline and "offends" some (other) French people. (especially the French from France as they still are in an "empire" mind set, having been one of Europes colonial empires of the past centuries.

Peace on Earth to all of Goodwill

Hadn't considered that
Don

Oh man! That was most DEFINITELY not a racial slur!! It just rhymed with blog! Sheer ridiculousness due to a mood of absurdity. Hope everybody doesn't think that it was like that. I can see how it might have been interpreted that way now, due to the fct that most of the blogs are French, and frogs legs are a delicacy in France! Not my intention whatsoever!! Josh

Prayer and Humility heals all
It does not offend me personally, having used it myself to "desensitise" situations in my "mediation and arbitration" roles in the past, but it does still offend some. But controlling the Mind, which is what Raja Yoga is about with it's Octave (eight-fold) path, maybe does not work if the tapas (austerities, sacrifice, service etc..) are removed from the system as with Sahaj Marg. It removes the sensitivity and the compassion and the love for the neighbour and specially for the "enemy" and makes one, in one's moment of anger, lash out with uncontolled words from the unfettered mind. Maybe the tapas was the "compassion-giving" mechanism of the Raja Yoga system.

Some of Chariji's comments on Christianity (confession) and Christ (wisdom in being crucified) also offends Christians but he also does not know, not being aware of the implications of the historical "righteousness" of the Christian mindset. Questionning Christ's wisdom in being crucified is akin to questionning Martin Luther King widsom in being shot. It just happened and should be respected as such and not "used" to further the goal of "stealing the sheep" of the Catholic or the Christians "Shepherds". The same for the "ability of Priests to "fogive sins", it should just be accepted as such, specially from a person who claims to be able to "create 10 Vivekenandas" at one sitting and to "remove Samskaras" from the Abhyasis. His statements, in my opinion, will creates "samskaras" and will be part of the "denseness" hat Chari transmits to the rest of you.  And you will become like him as you "wish".  Carefull what you wish, is the wisdom I was taught.  Unless you think, like Chari, that his statements come from God, being the representative of God, and that he is "right" as he likes to claim.

The Jews are saying the same thing to the Christians who are trying to get Jews to convert to Christianity and I agree with them there also. It shows a great amount of ego and Machievialinism that is not what the claims of the group reflects. Love and respect should be what the Master encourages and "displays" also, and maybe that is the danger of becoming a "clone" of an imperfect Master. All the Imperfections also enter in. I am sure that you, in your own heart would be sensitive to "racism" and racist slurs. But Power corrupts. And that is what those who have left Sahaj Marg are saying. We did not like what we became with Sahaj Marg...See Chari's Denmark speech in Nopvmber 2003....

But I am sure that all this also shall pass....and I won't preach at you but I have the right to question and judge the system, if not the individuals in the system. How else can we use the "claim" and the "quote" approach of the Journalist in writing an encyclopedia, if we do not know what to attribute to a claim and what is a concensual "truth" because we all can see it. By their fruit, you shall know them, is a quote attributed to Christ but I'm sure it is not "original".....It is just a "Truism" and should be a benchmark for all spiritual disciplines and certainly for the Masters of these disciplines...

AMEN....(Just a Joke, I am not religious) "So be it" is the meaning of Amen in Latin...

PS. Thanks again for your "spirit" and your understanding of my intent here. If you are left with a bad taste, let me know...My intent is to reach a "brotherhood" with you and not an "enemy". Although if we do, I will still attempt to love you as an enemy and not ignore and reject you but to respect you as a "part of the ONE God". Don...

Unfortunate Circumstances
Don

I can assure you that I didn't get my insensitivity from Chariji. I was not even aware that "frog" was a racial slur. Of course, if Chariji had told me that it was, I would not have used it, but other than that, I cannot find a way to blame him for my ignorance. I feel badly that world situations have led to such a general feeling of mistrust that the mere mention of an amphibian is enough to hurt someone's feelings. However, this is not my doing or responsibility, though I will take more care in the future.

Josh PS -- Thanks for making the change!

PPS -- Just noticed your recent blog entries. Thank you for your trust. By the way, the allegation that I am involved in computer science is absolutely false. I am, in fact, pursuing a career as a classical violinist.

Josh

I stand corrected
Sorry...It must have been another with the same name. Good luck in your music career. I have corrected on Poxy SRCM in my latest post...

Don

Thank You
Thanks, Don. I appreciate that.

Josh

Sahaj Marg
Hi Don, unfortunately I had to remove some of the links you posted to articles in French, according to Wikipedia guidelines. Do you know if there are translations of the aforementioned articles? They would be a welcome addition to the article (for balance).

Sfacets 06:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Sahaj Marg NPOV
Hi! Hope this finds you well. I'm interested in collaborating on an updated version of the Sahaj Marg article. I've posted some comments on the discussion page for Sahaj Marg... I've also read your blog, and it seems we've shared some experiences. I'm fairly well versed in SM literature and philosophy, as well as being an avid wikipedia reader, so I bet between yourself, me, Sfacets and CP-Sakha we can come up with something even better than what's there now.

MatheoDJ 2006-10-16 10:37 (UTC)

Hi Matheodj
Thanks for the input...and this message....I will write a comment on the Sahaj Marg Discussion page..

This is for you and me....CP-Sakha is now in India with Chari (in the Lion's den as Chari calls it), trying to "get back in" and although the idea of changing the text of the article and leaving the majority of the "quotes" in on my blog, sounds like a good idea, this is where the majority of the "searchers" come so this is the place to leave a "stand-alone" and "paraphrased" article and not rely on the "individual" blogs that are rumoured to be soon "legally challenged" by the Mission. So this is the only place for "controversial" information that might survive the "legal" challenges (being "paraphrased").

In a perfect world, I would agree with you. But this is a group that, being businessmen, and the "kings of Industry" and Indian "nationalists", use the courts all the time even against one another. If you read KC Narayana (Dr Varadachari's son, ex-member of the "working committee" and leader of the breakaway, ISRC (Institute for Ram Chandra Consciousness) which Christian and a bunch of preceptors and abhyasis have "defected" to, on Christian's blog, and also the comments on Michael's blog, you will notice that this is a "business" that uses Sprituality as a "product". So they are protecting their "investment" and their product.

See you later..We can discuss the Sahaj Marg material on the "discussion Page" there.....

Sfacets is the one who made me aware of the "Homosexuality" issue...

--don 20:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Don..

From SMSF-Srcm
Since removed by SMSF srcm...See History Nov 21 for content

Reply to SMSF srcm
Hi SMSF...

Thanks for you message...I placed it at the end of the page...

So you have any proof of what you say.

1. Can you tell me a little about yourself... a. Abhyasi? Still part of SRCM? b. Preceptor? c. Which part of the world (India, Europe, USA, Canada ...) d. Why speak out now? 2. Baster's son, Krisha, owns the SRSF? Is there documentation or statements to this effect? 3. Barry Day is let go for speaking out? Does Barry Day speak out now, or is he still in SRCM?

4. Do you intend to "go public" as many of have done? Are you willing to "testify" (stand up and be counted) or give "your testimonial" anonymously. (compilation is in progress in Europe).

5. Do you have any evidence that the "inner circle" is travelling free of charge or at the expense of the Mission? (You mentionned one name and "son" of the Master)

6. Words written anonymously have no weigth and are just "hearsay" or gossip. Will you furnish a name (your first name and city) with the understanding that I can print it, and/or proof or evidence if that is possible?

Thanks for your contribution to the Wealth of Material being sent to me daily...If you want to communicate more "anonymously" that this, you can send it to "don-4d-don@hotmail.com"

Don--don 20:33, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

From SMSF srcm
Since removed by SMSF srcm...(See History Nov 21 for content)

Hi SMSF srcm...
Thanks for the Info....I guess you know the "ins" and "outs" of the Mission so you must still be "in" and do not want to "expose" yourself.

I will wait for your next instalment...and sorry that you are caught in such a "terrible" situation, if things are as you describe them...It must be terrible. Is this the "path to the ONE God" for you? Do you think that the ONE God favours such "goings ons" with "blessings"?

don

From SMSF srcm
Hi don...

ײSince Removed by SMSF srcm...(See History Nov 21 for content) HY AM JONING TO INDAN ROW EJENCY DAPLAWMENTÕצFAAN

Reply to SMSF srcm
Hi SMSF srcm...

What do you wish to accomplish with these messages to me on my "User Page"? Do you wish to give me a "heads up" or alert me to the "corruption" in the Mission? This information will be part of the "public debate" on Sahaj Marg and the SRCM and will not be "hidden"...

You probably realize that I don't have to be convinced about SRCM as I have been an abhyasis myself. I was there when Chari took over and left after meeting him and looking into his "soul" through the windows of the soul, the eyes.

I appreciate you information...If you want something more from me, please say so...I think your info should be out in the "public" as that is the place where it would have the most "impact"...It can be done without "exposing" yourself too much. Others have done it and you could do the same or add your comments to other people's sites where it would be seen by more people than on my "user page"

Just a thought...I will be here for you if you need me...and you don't "bother me"...You just confirm my and other's feelings and "suspicions"...

Thank you for your courage...

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...and...Forgive them for they know not what they do!!!

Don...

Hi Don
You claim to be mostly impartial. But you are an ex-abhyasi. So you must have either got disillusioned or had a negative experience(any other possibility?). Can you tell me something that will make me feel that your true intention is to bring out information and not just rant against the organization *you* hate.

Is it not a bit unfair that a person who has a strong opinion about a topic somehow monopolizes the right to edit an article. I am not asking for that privilege myself. I would prefer to stick to the logic and will keep my hands dry until I fully know what the hell is going on. But how would I expect you to allow anybody to contribute anything to that article if you would first filter that to confirm it somehow proves that the institution is a fraud.

All your recent edits somehow focus on exposing SRCM and therefore I feel uncomfortable to a certain extent as it is very tiresome to deal with a frustrated guy with a lot of passion. I sometimes wonder why I have entered into this editwar where I am highly unlikely to encounter anyone who has little connection with SRCM either as an ex-member or a current member who is a strong believer.

I am not saying what u r doing is wrong. But just make me feel comfortable that I am dealing with someone who is interested in true knowledge much more than your mission to expose SRCM. 59.92.199.189 15:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to 59.92.199.189
Hi 59.92.199.189

Unfortunately, most of the editors who get involved here have a "POV", me, your "friend", and you included. No one is "un-biased"...we all have a bias of some sort. What we want to do is to reach a concensus on an article so that all the POV are reflected and leave the reader chose the "knowledge" and truth he/she wants. Not all the information will be agreed upon but we can represent a "broad" picture of the topic and not just a "one-dimensional" view of the organization in question.

The adherents to SRCM want only what is the "Party line" and understandably so, as that is what they have to believe to belong to a group that demands "obedience" so as to reach the "Ultimate". But the truth is never "one-dimensional" as we live in a n...dimension reality. The truth is not "black and white" but various shades of grey. That is what the article should be so as to reflect the REALITY that this group claims to want to reach. They want to be the good guys in "WHITE" and anyone who questions or opposes their view as the bad guys, frustrated or "biased" etc..and paint them in "BLACK".

Now the INTERNET or Information revolution has changed all that and is giving those who have an experience of a product such as "spirituality" that is sold for "donations", cost of books, and cost of seminars, can now share that experience with others and that in itself is a "ROAD SIGN", either of danger or of "approval"...

We have the technology...Make it so...

Don--don 19:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)--don 19:56, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Don
I am fully aware that we all have a bias (including myself). But an article on wikipedia ought to be more "useful" than (infinity-infinity). The hard question is not whether the article should reflect a shade of grey. The real question is whether the guy who is determined to show that something it BLACK or WHITE should some how get any extra privileges. I am not accusing you of anything so don't bother to clarify. This is just logic, so don't think too much about "me" or "my motives".

But the situation is this. Do you really think the current state of the article is RGB=(0.5,0.5,0.5) or (127,127,127) (Exact grey in whatever definition) Now the problem is this: If some one wants to make it whiter... consensus is needed and if some one wants to make it blacker consensus is needed. So there is a bias towards the current state of the article. Do you disgree??

Again I do not argue that exact grey is the right color either. Having an exact grey article about the WTC bombings or the world wars is not an acceptable state even if 50% of the editors want to make it that way. So the question is how do you choose the state of grey. I do appreciate the fact that you seem to want produce "output" at the end of the day.

I used the word "colleague". "friend" is a word I reserve for a much smaller subset of people. The organization that I work for does not seem to have much of an effect on either our religious beliefs or practices. And don't worry, I became a Pastafarian very early in life. The reason for mentioning the reason for my arrival on that page is that. I wanted to avoid a huge controversy about why N.N.N.N is over here. Or maybe slip of the fingers ;-). Or maybe full disclosure ;-). Or maybe pretention of full disclosure ;-) or so on...

Ok let us start the discussion assuming that I have a bias anywhere b/w -infinity to +infinity.

Ignoring all that let us "slowly" yet "systematically" proceed towards "output".

All I want to say is that it is illogical to assume that the current version has "acceptance" merely because no one is consistently flipping the state of the article. And expecting consensus for all further alterations to use the current state of the article as a baseline. I am not demanding a rewrite from scratch. But I definitely demand a "rethought" from scratch. What i am saying by this is that the article is in state x. You moved it up by delta y therefore it needs to now be moved down by delta y. The focus should be on references and not on achieving perfect grey.

Your response shows that you believe in argument and not cursing and yelling and screaming. I hope neither of us will resort to cursing and screaming if we are proved "less correct" than the other party.

What I am saying is that it is stupid to have a prolonged lawsuit involving a guy who would after being proved wrong shoot you and the judge in cold blood and run away from the scene. I am not accusing you of being like that. But I want a gentleman's assurance from you that you do not believe that "Intelligent debate is 'one of the options'". I promise back the same.

59.92.199.74 15:17, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply to 59.92.199.74
Hi 59.92.199.74

Yes...an encyclopedia article will be biased towards the "status quo" which is the a conglomeration of the biases of the participants and/or contributors to date. Such is the state of "information" and the world in general. The status quo is the the status quo because someone took the time and the effort to make it so. But it is not one POV that is the Status quo, not mine or anyone else's.

I still get e-mails asking me to correct "inaccuracies" by others who for reason of their own (as yourself), chose to remain anonymous and "in the background" (University profs, businessmen, public servants (politicians, military, police, judicial, etc.).  This issue has surfaced around this group in Europe and became a Media event as a judge and a politician were questionned in the media on their ability to remain "impartial", and be a follower of an SRCM with it's principle of "obedience" to a Master (a "foreigner"-media quote) to the point of "killing one's mother"....In Sahaj Marg, the Master becomes the father, mother, brother, friend, doctor etc...and there is no role that the Master does not undertake.

I don't have any problems with any of your arguments and have no counter, and as I have worked in "concensus" building, sometimes "when the issues do not matter", silence is the best way to reach concensus...So I will be silent on the rest of your comments.

I don't know if I can promise you "intelligence" but I can promise you an attempt at it!! But that will be my POV and it is not "neutral". ;-)) lol

Keep on the Sunny Side of Life...

4d-don

Hi Don
I notice a time warp ;-). Whazzup? I think the infalliable FSM has screwed up the fabric of time!!! If you are also involved, I shall move out without collecting the light-saber from you. But I hope you realize by now that you lose more than SRCM by this!!! 59.92.187.104 18:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi 59.92.187.104
Yes I had to revert rather that check everything that was "changed" by n...dimensional "myths". If you go up one dimension, you will notice that the fabric of "motion" has not been warped or "screwed up", but that a mythic geometry expressed up one dimension is seen as a "motion or event" when looking down across the dimensions.

I am involved in trying to make the world a better place so that we can turn our attention and our "time and money" to expanding to the rest of the solar system and then the galaxy. (That means watching for "meteors" or other Civilization-busting events (environmental, disease, droughts, etc...

Money or wealth is the realm of PLUTO (the god of the underworld) in greek mythology and it's acolytes are called "plutocrats", the wealthy. When Plutocrats want power, they get involved in money and then the "religions" at their "crony" age. They are easy to spot as their theology is flawed (i.e. "God is Male",in most religions today), philosophies are flawed (women can't be Masters because they are not "destructive " enough and institutions are pyramidal with all the as power centralized into one Physical form or person. The natives and earth religions use the circle as their structural underpinning with the fire at the centre of the circle.  Spirituality should be at least the "spiral".

Time is part of the the myth of the destroyer Siva or Shiva and in Greek myth Chronos, in Roman Myth Saturn (the planet), and represented that Father Time who destroys all...

I do not have a light saber to hand over, but ideas and I think that it's the technology that is "man of the year"!! and the blogger is just a user who "publishes" in virtual space.

Money, being abstract, a counting system, belongs in virual space. The math is already there with negative numbers or "Debt". The economist, the bean counter, should not lead or be the Master of society with his "saber", his adding machine (1d), creating an economy (2d), to buy and sell goods and services (3d). Pluto and the Plutocrats try to "sell" the 4d of rewards on the "other side", in the "brighter world" and takes the "time and money" of the "do gooders" who would be doing the "social work" that our planet so direly need. An it's a gift that they can't give as they don't own it. It belongs to the ALL or the ONE!!

The leader (at this time) should be the "technocracy....See the seven archtypes of the Kabbalah (Jewish) http://www.kheper.net/topics/Kabbalah/SeferZohar.htm and the seven principles of the Kybalion (Egypt) www.thenazareneway.com/kybalion.htm

I hope that none of us lose but that all gain, even me, you and SRCM and the "plutocrats". If I read and encyclopedia article, I would like it to look like this one in the future with all sides free to have an expression...and it does!! The .com, .org, .net are all available to SRCMtm and will reamain for a long time. We, the common folks now have Wiki and the Blogs.....If there is a bit of info that you see and that would reflect your view, I welcome it... with references of course... If ever I meet another Pastafarian, I will talk about you in kindness...I will say that I like your spirit and will mention that pasta bullets should bring "sauce" and not blood...like you mentionned last TIME!! ;-))

Saturn (TIME) the planet is in Leo and is just rising here!!

Pluto is not a planet any more and is to be returned to the Underworld with His (male) gifts of Plutonium and oil.

Saturn as the god of TIME will be taken out of the n...dimensional model of the physical Universe that is in vogue today thanks to Minkowski (1908), teacher of Einstein. Instead of SPACETIME, we will start to see the 4th dimension of space and then look to MOTION for the other further dimensions (measurements) (an octave (8) of dimensions, I think, for a galactic consciousness. We see the seven nodes in music scale (sound), in light (the rainbow), transitions from crystal (matter) back to energy and if we look at string theory, back to SPACE! So from Space to Space!)

Phase transitions:


 * 1 Take ice, add heat and you get water, a liquid
 * 2 Take a liquid and add heat and you get steam, a gas
 * 3 Take a gas and add heat and you get plasma, an ionized gas (electrons seperated for the nucleus (protons and neutrons)
 * 4. Take a plasma and add heat and you get a "no-name yet # 1" but is a rarified gas with only protons and neutrons and their gluons (carriers of the forces) in isolation or not bound
 * 5. Take a sea of "proton/neutron/gluons rarified gas" and add heat and you get a "no-name yet # 2" but is a more rarified gas with only gluons (force carriers) not bound in the proton and the neutron.
 * 6. Take a sea of gluons and add heat and your get a "no-name yet # 3" but is a sea of "quarks" arranged in 3's to make the proton/neutron and in 2's for the gluons
 * 7. Take a sea of quarks and add heat and you get a sea of "strings" one-dimensional energy of space itself

TIME then is seen as the "rate of change" and not the "change" (transitions, transformation events) itself. MOTION is the "thing". As we (Newton)saw the force of "attraction" and called it gravity, we now see thanks to the 1850's many scientists, that "gravity" is a warping of 4d spacemotion (my word) and is not a "spooky action at a distance" as Einstein said.

But I ramble....If you need me, I'll be in the Euclidean Relativity sites and discussions... on my many "patrols"...under an aka of course. lol

Safely tucked inside the ONE (God) where we live!!!

Don...--don 23:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Got your point.
THE SID 59.92.187.104 03:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

talk:Sahaj Marg
I'd noticed the weird situation with talk:Sahaj Marg before, but I couldn't figure out how to resolve it. I don't know that your fix is great either, as now there's duplicate material in two places. I think it would have been better to un-rediect the page and leave it blank until someone wants to write a new comment. -Will Beback · † · 02:52, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Readability of Sahaj Marg, SRCM pages
Hello Don

Let me start by saying that given the company I have, I'm thankful to have someone as balanced and level-headed as you on the reviewer board for these pages. Even though you and I are obviously on opposite ends of the opinion spectrum on SRCM and SahajMarg, I honestly do appreciate that you're ready to accommodate my point of view, so... Thank you! Please know that I too would be happy to accommodate yours, however little I may like it or agree with it. :)

I'm looking at the big picture of the format of these pages. The readability is just terrible currently. I think we'd both like to make these easy to read and retrieve info. Given how long you've been looking after these pages, I bet you've tried to clean things up and then watched things get undone after a while. If you have the energy for one more attempt, I'd like to collaborate.

At a big picture level, I noticed a couple things - 1. SRCM (the Mission) and Sahaj Marg (the method) have been seriously intertwined, and material meant for one page is on the other (or both). For example, it makes no sense to have an "Activities" section on SahajMarg. This belongs to SRCM. 2. The "blocks" of information are dissipated all over the map. Most wiki pages I've read have a format that goes: Section 1) Facts and Figures 2) Opinion 1, background data 3) Opinion 2, background data 4) Opinion 3 if there is a third, background data 5) Links, citations, references, templates, etc.

Would like to hear your opinion on this. Thanks

--Marathi mulga 01:33, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Balance on the Sahaj Marg page
Hi Don

Sorry to be whiny but I currently feel like a Jewish person at a Nuremberg rally. :)

Some pretty off-the-wall claims are being made on the Sahaj Marg page, and even if you hate SRCM, "because I say so" is never adequate grounds to place anything there (or overturn previous edits). Just keep in mind, that the more extreme the stance the article has, the less credibility it carries (especially when the first thing the reader is reading is the neutrality warning on top of the page). I could easily go in and take out whatever little pro-SRCM material is in there and further skew it into a complete hate-page that no balanced person would accept as truth. That would further reduce the value of whatever balanced criticism was in there in the first place.

Look forward to your advice on this and what to do about it.

MM

--Marathi mulga 16:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Hi Don

Felt good to read your response. What you suggest is a sensible way to go forward (and that's a big deal because its 2 steps back for every step forward with this crowd).I'll give the others some time to cool off. I too need to think about the next steps to avoid a edit war - That doesn't do anyone any good.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do because you'd have made an awesome abhyasi. When did you meditate (in SRCM)? How long?

MM --Marathi mulga 00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks... Again
Hi Don

Appreciate your taking the lead on toning down the rhetoric. For my part, I've been trying hard consciously to keep out anything but the plain hard facts (morning meditation, evening cleaning type stuff) and have none of my opinions in there. But it gets harder to edit this page when such extreme opinions get voiced.

Oh well, keeping going and hoping we see some VOLUNTARY moderation. :)

MM --Marathi mulga 22:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you
First off, it has been great having you around. Sethie appreciates your level-headedness, and your lack of hurry, or pushiness.

Most importantly Sethie DEEPLY appreciates your commitment to NPOV... from your posts it seems clear you have a stance on who is genuine, who isn't, etc., yet Sethie senses you really wish to create a very neutral telling of that facts.

Thanks also for the light-heartedness, a quality Sethie would like to bring more of to wikipedia. Warmly, Sethie 07:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Please....
Sethie gets that you understand NPOV and wiki policies better then Shashwat AND that you maybe see things the way he does.

Would you please enter the dialogue? Sethie is getting tired of being the one to constantly keep Shashwat focused on wiki policies and bring his edits into line with wikipedia.

The only way for an article to have long-term stability is to get it really clean and tight. There is plenty of room for criticisms, and next to no room for how Shashwat wants to express them, no long term room that is.

You have a POV, and that's fine. What you also seem to have is the capacity to try and be neutral. Would you please enter the dialogue from that place- from the place of trying to honor wiki policies?

Anyway your joviality would help, a lot.

Sethie has next to no feelings about Sahaj Marg, this is all an excercise in applying wiki policies and remaining civil for him. You on the other hand seem to have some passion and interest in the article, so Sethie is appealing to you to please participate more. Sethie 17:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Please, please, please, please
Would it work for you to please keep conversations about a particular topic under that particular section? Sethie is reffering in this case to the "contradiction" section. You and Sethie were dialogueing, Sethie responded and then you put your respone under the you-tube section, which sethie then changed to "Don's comments."

Sethie is asking this for the sake of simplicity, clarity and ease of tracking discussions.

Also, this page, from Sethie's perspective, has a lot of problems, and gettting the talk page in shape is a real simple thing that could move things forward.Sethie 16:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again
Your lastest batch of edits really helped to clean up the article.

Sethie still has concerns about the whole "represented" thing, but your edit certainly feels more neutral then what was there. Sethie 23:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Re SRCM edits
Hi Sethie...

I am just beginning. Hopefully we can keep the SRCM "un-edited" and untouched for a whle. The Sahaj Marg article was "NPOV" before this last "gang" of editors (except for paraphrasing for reasons of accusations of "out of context" by members of SRCM (California))and is now really skewed first in favour of SRCM (Claifornia) and now against SRCM (California)...It's like "instant Karma"..lol With your help, we can fix it and bring it back to NPOV... "sort of" anyway...lol.. I am not neutral but will attempt to keep my "POV" out and I count on you to keep me "on the straight and narrow"...lol  and I will try and keep other editors which will remain "un-named", and as a legendary "judge" would say:  Son, I'm gonna put you on the  "good road for a while"....

I don't understand the statement in your message to me:

Sethie still has concerns about the whole "represented" thing, but your edit certainly feels more neutral then what was there.

Could you clarify... on my talk page...

PS... I can't post on your talk page because of your "spam filter" it says it's because of ORKUT.com...which I am on...

How can I get rid of that and post to your talk page??

Don--don 16:21, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Heya- Sethie feels gratitude and appreciation for working for NPOV with your POV.THANKS!!!!


 * The represented is the "Represents the Divine" thing.


 * Yeah Sethie will post on talk page... and not sure about that spam filter. He'll look into it. Sethie 02:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Get Well Soon
Don

Get well, soon!

--Marathi mulga 02:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks
Dear Don,

It was good to hear from you on the delete page. I wanted to let you know that even though we have different POVs, in the brief time I worked with you on the SRCM page I appreciated your fairness and reasonableness and can see that you truly hold to the Wiki values of fairness, balance, and civility. Thank you!

Good luck with your surgery.

Renee   --Renee 12:19, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

p.s. When I was trying to figure out how to make a user box yesterday I came across this and thought of you!

Rfc/user for Shashwat pandey
Dear 4d-don,

Users Sethie and Reneeholle have filed an Rfc for user Shashwat pandey.

Because you have contributed to either the Sahaj Marg page, the Shri Ram Chandra Mission page, or both, we would appreciate it if you could provide your comments of this user at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Shashwat_pandey

Here are the guidelines for responding :


 * Other users can endorse a view (under 1.7), by adding their signature to the list after that view. Along with their signature, they may wish to offer a clarifying comment of one or two sentences, for example if they agree with all but one particular part of the view. Longer responses than that should probably go into their own "View" section.
 * Anyone can endorse any view, regardless of whether or not they are outside parties, inside parties, or even the subject of the RfC. Ideally, there will be some view(s) that both sides of the involved parties can endorse.
 * You may endorse as many views as you wish. You may also endorse the original RfC statement (under section 1.7), and/or the subject's response (under section 2).

Thank you for your time. It is greatly appreciated! 18:18, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you
I really appritiate your contribution on sahaj marg talk page. can you become actively involved in the page as i do not feel the two links which are currently provided in the page meet the standered of wikipedia verifiablity and reliable source, one of them is directly from the group source !! and another one is a blog, are such external links accepted ? Can that be taken as a reliable source, if yes, then i have pleanty of material ready, but i will wait till i learn the tricks and tips of wikipedia.

Thank you once again ! Glowry Be

--Rushmi 12:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Sahaj Marg
An article that you have been involved in editing, Sahaj Marg, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

question?
Hi Don,

Are you open to receiving emails? If yes, please activate yours or send one to me and I'll reply. If not, no problem. Renee Renee 01:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hi Don, I just wanted to know if you thought Sahaj Marg the practice works? (free from any organization; either of the SRCMs or ISRC)  I didn't know if you felt comfortable answering that on the public board so hence asked if you wanted to email.  I'm truly interested in what you think of the practice alone?  Best wishes, Renee
 * p.s. My husband does not practice Sahaj Marg; he started on the SRF (self-realization fellowship) path 25 years ago and has stuck with that...so you can see that even in our own household, we believe there are many ways to the top of the mountain...Renee 19:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Shri Ram Chandra Mission (Chennai)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Shri Ram Chandra Mission (Chennai), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. Renee 22:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Shri Ram Chandra Mission (Shahjahanpur)
An article that you have been involved in editing, Shri Ram Chandra Mission (Shahjahanpur), has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. Renee 22:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Institute of Sri Ram Chandra Consciousness
An article that you have been involved in editing, Institute of Sri Ram Chandra Consciousness, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Articles for deletion/. Thank you. Renee 22:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Don, I had added two notes to the AfD (I think before deletion - but I am sometines not too observent about such things so I may have added after I should have). I thought your points important, and I am sorry they were ignored.

What I added was this:

"I have no opinion on the article, but I think that Don's ideas for a neutral party to mediate are of central importance. My experience with Renee, when she came to the Alice Bailey article under an RfC, is that while she claimed to be neutral, she was highly partisan from the beginning. So while I can not say that she is wrong here (I do not know), I can say her claims of neutrality can not be trusted. Kwork 16:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)"

"I want to add something about the vote of Jamesd1 (below) to 'delete'. If you take a look at his contributions since he started editing on Wikipedia about six months ago, you will see that from the time he began editing up until his 'delete' vote here, he has been a single purpose editor; editing only the Alice Bailey article. With that in mind, it is difficult for me to see what knowledge Jamesd1 could have of Sri Ram Chandra Consciousness in general, or the article about it in particular. On the other hand, considering the enormous help Renee gave to Jamesd1 in his arguments with me about the Alice Bailey article, it is hard not to view his vote here as a pay-back for her help there. Out of fairness, I think he should remove his vote. Kwork 16:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)"

I can not say that I feel very positive about my experience editing Wikipedia. Kwork 18:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Re : Shri Ram Chandra Mission AfDs
I've closed two of the AfDs as per the previous three headings as delete. I've taken a look at your opinion and checked it against the two articles, but they clearly do not contain any independent references or sources (other than those provided by the organization itself) that would have passed the verifiability and notability standards for inclusion in Wikipedia. I'm not touching Shri Ram Chandra Mission (Chennai) as there are a few secondary sources that might warrant a second look. - Best regards, Mailer Diablo 17:59, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Sahaj Marg India
Hi Don,

Greetings, you appear to be quite knowledgeable person (your awards) i noticed you here you were the only person who nominated against deletion of the page, rest all are cult member's who manipulate and work behind wikipedia to promote cult view on wikipedia and internet in general. From your talk page it appears that you have sufficient knowledge about the subject so as to start a page. people such as user:Jossi should be barred from editing wikipedia, as they do not confirm to statements made by them only ! how can you help me starting the page deleted by a well known cult promoter user:Jossi. Please respond, if you are still on wikipedia. --talk-to-me! (talk) 16:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks heavens I have someone with information, I am trying to re-write the page here, but given my one week experience with this cult i may not be able to write a complete article, may be you would like to participate in discussion here also

A brief intro about myself also, I am an engineer working in india, and am a student of vedanta school, recently i noticed couple of divorces in my neighborhood, all because of so called spiritual groups, as i myself was quite involved in spirituality and metaphysics as a subject, i wondered how come such things happen in so called spiritual groups, a further study reviled everything, these are dangerous cults, manipulating and brainwashing people and draining them of whatever knowledge they may have, i noticed jossi few months back, and when i sow him deleting a cult page, things became absolutely clear to me. These groups spoil name of my country and the philosophy i am student of. please participate in discussion and add to the info. --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

--talk-to-me! (talk) 18:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

new info?
Dear Don,

Welcome back (I think) :-)

Do you know of any dissertations or scholarly articles that have recently emerged on Sahaj Marg? I heard there were some in India but don't know if they are in English or not.

Thanks, Renee (talk) 21:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Speedy deletion of Sahaj Marg India/fr
A tag has been placed on Sahaj Marg India/fr, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section G1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the page appears to have no meaningful content or history, and the text is unsalvageably incoherent. If the page you created was a test, please use the sandbox for any other experiments you would like to do. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you have any questions about this.

If you think that this notice was placed here in error, you may contest the deletion by adding  to the top of the page (just below the existing speedy deletion or "db" tag), coupled with adding a note on the talk page explaining your position, but be aware that once tagged for speedy deletion, if the article meets the criterion it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag yourself, but don't hesitate to add information to the article that would would render it more in conformance with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. ~ LegoKontribsTalkM 02:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Talk page of deleted article
Please do not re-create talk pages of deleted articles, as these will be speedy deleted per CSD G:8. See WP:CSD.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Sahaj Marg article
I'd like to see an article about Sahaj Marg but only if it can be sourced from reliable 3rd-party secondary sources Court records don't cut it, though they can be used for supporting information. If there are no secondary sources available then the notability of the group, and the verifiability of anything we say about them, is questionable. I suggest that the way to start is to find those sources. Until then there's nothing much to do. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:10, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I used this time to collect information about this particular group, wikipedia should not be propaganda platform for paid member's, and i seriously doubt, Reneeholla's is a paid member of this group, which i noticed jossi advocating. How can i get in touch with the user, cult members are scared of ? --talk-to-me! (talk) 17:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Deletion
You may wish to weigh in on the proposed deletion of this page. Renee (talk) 00:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Help needed
Hi Don,

Hope you are doing good. I am reading and trying to understand few aspects of this cult, i am trying to write an article about, Can you fill in the section of central belief and concept of God here --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

About your post
Dear Br 4d-don,

Ever wondered if we reflect our inner condition upon the world we see. If we are happy, we see the world happy, if we are miserable, we see misery everywhere. Reading your post here, I feel the presence of these in you: prejudice, fear, confusion, hatred, love and lack of openness. I am not questioning their presence, obviously there must be some reasons, besides I might be completely wrong. It appears though these haven't changed for a while and I want to put another perspective, for whatever worth its of. Between me and my partner we have gone through all of these regarding Sahaj Marg as well. You seem to have deep reverence for Babuji Maharaj, but deeply prejudiced about Chariji. You very passionately talk against him as the Master but

- You fail to see his love for Babuji and fail to recognize that his sole purpose of life is to make each one of us that embodied flesh-and-blood divinity because that was his Master's wish. And after all we all have descended form "the ONE" that you like to think and talk about and we have a part of "the ONE", that divine spark, inside us, by virtue of which we all are brothers and sisters in all its true meaning.

- You miss the part where he has stated that the real work of the Master is to serve the abhyasis.

- You fail to see the universal brother hood he is trying to establish and not just trying, but in reality doing it. How often you see people from Russia, USA, Canada, Brazil, Spain, Iran, Pakistan, China, Malaysia and many more coming together, forgetting their nationality and living in true brotherhood; please think over it. People in one part of Canada don't go along with another part; seeing each other and giving a perfunctory smile is not brotherhood, it is courtesy .. which I believe is "mere pretense of a natural act."

- You don't want to think why in the age of 80 he would work so hard, travel so much, unlike spending hours in front of computer like me and you writing profusely in Wikipedia trying to prove what, I don't know, which has almost no impact on this world and perhaps negative impact on ourselves ... giving more reasons to him to go on.

It is not that these things are difficult to understand, but the fact is you choose to not accept it. Again perhaps there are reasons for it, may be some bad experiences, may be some bad examples. Simply because one is practising doesn't mean that he/she has correct understanding. Actually an ever changing understanding is the sign of evolution and not a fixed understanding. But there is something else becasue of which you keep coming back to these pages, I feel ... you can not let Chariji and Sahaj Marg go out of your mind and this is someting I will leave it for you to figure out ;) ... and believe it or not ... it is a very good for you, I am not joking, it is a form of constant remembrance and it will help you even if those thoughts are borne out of dislikeness or hatered. There is a story in Hindu mythology about Ravana's love for Lord Rama related to this. In all respect, even though from outside we see a lot of fire coming out of you towards Sahaj Marg, but I feel you and in fact User: CFW are two strong personalities who can be of great use to this world only if they open up a little bit and allow that external shell to break ..... and it will .... its only a matter of time. Sorry for this long post. Duty2love (talk) 21:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Duty2love...
Thanks for your comments...

I could return your "loving and compassionate (sarcasm)" analysis of my words, that you perform without knowing me, but just by my words, which you probably know are the product of the MIND not the SPIRIT, but I won't be that "arrogant" as to return your "insults" under the guise of "brotherhood" or "spirituality"...

We are all ONE... but some of us are "greedy, arrogant, nationalist, self-serving, murderous, thieves, etc...Others are generous, and not as "egotistical" much more of the time than the SRCM gang...For me to spread my PRAYER (or my method) thinking egotistically that MY PRAYER (or my method) will save all of mankind is arrogant and egotistical...WE in the WEST, who are not "religious", also have SPIRITUALITY as we are SPIRIT,  but it is not the RELIGIONS of the FATHERS with its "male" Warring God either.....IT IS more NATURAL (as in NATURE...including the COSMOS).  It is also science and logic-based, and not "faith" based.  The sun shines and the rain falls and the wind blow on all the BROTHERS, including US in the WEST.


 * You say that: "I fail to see his LOVE for Babuji"?

Does Babuji's family agree with that statement. Can you love Babuji and attack his family as SRCM does? His sole purpose in LIFE is not to spread Babuji's TEACHINGS, which did not divide as Chari's teachings does, but to change it to a lowly version of SPIRITUALISM (messages from the dead), not spirituality... Chari is changing the MESSAGE to un-consciously GLORIFY Himself...He is like an addict...no matter how it leaves "anger and division" behind, he can't stop. But even in his "ego", I love him more than he loves me, my family and/or Babuji and his family. I LEAVE HIM ALONE in respect and do not go and STEAL or disrupt his material dreams and efforts as he does the other families in the world, including the dreams and goals of other religions, calling them and us, "CORRUPT" and "proponents of violence"...We can call his statements "hypocritical"...That is what SRCM is and does, since he took over from a GOOD GUY (Babuji)...(one who is "SPIRITUAL")


 * WORDS ARE CHEAP...I see the FRUIT of his LABOUR and it is DIVISIVE and MATERIALIST...not SPIRITUAL...He grows MATTER as any CAPITALIST. And the PLANET? The Carbon FOOTPRINT? NOT on his radar...The families of the VICTIMS?  He does not care...He is like all other CAPITALISTS...BUILD BUILD BUILD...a REAL ESTATE SCAM that is worthy of the VATICAN...GROWTH out of control is a CANCER!!

By the way...I can see the lack of LOVE, forgiveness and compassion that you talk about in the lives of the abhyasis in my area also...dead husbands, and/or divided families since SRCM...NOT a UNITING FORCE this SRCM... but as good foot-soldiers for CHARI as with any other corrupt "RELIGION", they assasinate (poison) the characters of their FAMILY MEMBERS and seek other families and victims to divide. I would not be surprised if they don't read the "obits" and target the widows. Where before there was LOVE and FOGIVENESS...NOW there is "UN-caring and no compassion". Is that what SRCM teaches the abhyasis to do? Is that the "destruction" of LOVE that the preceptors are actively "TRANSMITTING" to the women of Sahaj Marg? Chari brought that up at one of the preceptors Seminars. Are they a "5th column", sacrificing our families to the goals of SRCM's Invasion of the WEST?


 * If you want UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD, help the POOR, not with PRIVATE schools and retreats for the wealthy...Bring some FOOD, HOSPITALS, MEDICINE, SHELTER, to AFRICA...Do something beside REAL ESTATE scams that will burden the future abhyasis (with the payment of the mortgage)... Do you know where ALL the CAPITALISTS of the WORLD unite...IN GREED!!  They do not fix the problems of the world but just profiteer for their CLAN and their own "gang" of money and power hungry "brothers and sisters"...  If you want to UNITE the WORLD in SPIRITUALITY, get away from the trappings of the corrupt religions with their focus on the grandeur of the MATERIAL...

You "religious nationalists" pretend to be a "BROTHER or a SISTER" but you are really wolves in sheep's clothing... If you want to be my BROTHER, go home and wait for me to invite you to my home...don't invade with your "serving the rich" charities as the POOR are dying in our streets.

Then when you come to my home...offer something, don't take something...do not divide one member of the family from the rest for your selfish goals, specially to favour the WEALTHY and ignore my poor BROTHERS. The money that would go to the poor will now go to build your Monuments to yourselves and for the BROTHERS AND SISTERS to gorge themselves on orgasms of food, egotism (navel gazing) and materialism as the POOR are ignored... I guess in INDIA...you are all BROTHERS and SISTERS and all LOVE one another so much that now you can teach us how to LIVE? NOT SO... You have to learn from US just as we can learn from you, We do not KILL one another for MATERIAL control of CHURCHES and ashrams... Stop teaching and start LEARNING...


 * What we want for the FUTURE of the WORLD is that ALL such religions as SRCM be exposed as yet another example of "doing everything to keep from going HOME"...When someone does not love, he avoids the occasions to love and surround himself with a "entourage" so he can only claim to LOVE from a distance...LOVE MEANS to be close...not to divide... I am not opposed to SRCM and to CHARI but to RELIGION in general, and now to Religion that calls itself SPIRITUALITY...I see another gang of corrupt individuals who can't DO, but TEACH what they CAN'T DO... RELIGIONS BUILD CHURCHES...CHARITIES help the POOR AND THE NEEDY...SPIRITUALITY deals with SPIRIT...not MATERIAL...

India has so much to offer the world...So sad that it is this "ROT" and "corruption" that you export. Wallow in your self-righteousness and "indignation" and your feigned "persecution" while you persecute, victimize and manipulate the masses for the GLORY of YOUR PATH and hence "YOURSELF"...

I will keep a watch and will speak for those you hurt, victimize and divide, even to violence and then to war!!

Become the GOOD...Stop pretending that now, you are GOOD... LEARN...stop TEACHING!!LISTEN...Stop PREACHING!!

Read my OPEN letter to CHARI in my blog and give the letter to Chari and ask him to address the issues I bring forward... And of course...Pretend that it is not TRUE if you want to!! but it is true...That is what you support!! DIVISION! NOT UNITY AND ONE-ness!!

In catholicism, they confess the sins to the priest, and then PRAY, and that confirms that the Catholics are GOOD!! NOT TRUE!! The Path to HELL is paved with GOOD INTENTIONS...EVERYone wants a "DIFFERENT world" but no one wants to change...Everyone wants the others to change and become like them...SOUND FAMILIAR?? Arrogant? Everyone wants to go to the BRIGHTER WORLD (heaven) but no one wants to die. (become truly a Spirit)

http://4d-don.blogspot.com/2008/03/last-open-letter-to-chari-for-sake-of.html

Don--don (talk) 17:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear Br Don,

I fully admit I have to learn a lot. In fact in one of my humble moods I have gotten this thought that the reason I am practicing Sahaj Marg is perhaps I needed it more than many others who don't. Also, this practice has created a lot of disturbance in my own family, and it took a great deal to trace or accept its root inside us. Babuji said in simple words, "Take miseries as divine blessings", perhaps one of the hardest thing for us mankind to do, we always look outside for the causes, because as you said, we don't want to change. I read your open letter also but nothing in it creates any dissension. We both see and experience this world differently, and perhaps make judgments on things too soon ... because of our samaskaric composition, just like perhaps I made on you in my original post, to which you responded quite insightfully. Follow your heart, I wish you a speedy spiritual progress. Duty2love (talk) 23:16, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I do not have any first hand experience of this particular cult, but all that i can say, those who claim that devotion to the cult leader and absolute devotion to family will go hand in hand are stupid’s of highest order, in absolute terms these two things are not possible at the same time, as claimed by all the Sahajas. Essence is in absolute devotion it does not matter if it is for family or for group, but it has to be absolute, claiming absolute devotion to gang as well as family is contradiction and leads to hallucination, this I am saying out of 5 yrs of search (in absolute terms). Just to let you know, i do not have a family, "I am free" --talk-to-me! (talk) 06:48, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi Duty2love

Thank you for your comments...

I respect your opinion and allow all to follow the path they want...That is freedom.

In my view, Spirit is "inside" and "outside" and the spiritual journey outside is mostly ritual and repetition...or in the MATERIAL...or RELIGION. The other journey or path of SPIRIT is INSIDE (no ritual or repetition there except the ones created by the SELF, but it is a COMMUNION or a CONVERSATION with the ONE/ALL...

The "OUTSIDE" is already JOURNEYED by MANY or even MOST...If I have to GO OUTSIDE to get to the path "INSIDE" I am not being more spiritual but I am being RELIGIOUS. To deal with the "OUTSIDE", or the created world, with all it's beautiful 'Ashrams", Churches, with pictures of the MASTER, even God "ITSELF" in some religions, will not assist me one iota in my INNER SPIRITUAL JOURNEY and will not show me the "INSIDE" of SPIRIT. The OUTSIDE religions want to control and imprint on the INSIDE realm so as to create MORE of ITSELF and hence to perpetualte its existence on the "INSIDE" realm.  Since the "INNER" journey is ETERNAL and never ending, the corruption of REALITY it creates is the "neglect" of family and friends under the guise of reaching a GOAL...which is never reached in REALITY...REALITY means MOTION...not stasis, no GOAL, no END, no OMEGA!  JUST an ILLUSION created by RELIGION and CULTS to profiteer off the TIME of the "gullible".  TIME can be translated into money given, stuff purchased, in other words, the MATERIAL. And of course TIME can be translated into the  worship, bowing, giving praise and reverence to the self-created POWERFUL "members" of the MATERIAL PYRAMID of the MISSION. ALL "TIME" (power) that is usurped from THE FAMILY and FRIENDS and COMMUNITY, NATURE, and the PLANET, the environment, etc...

In my spirituality, the JOURNEY is the THING...not the GOAL or the CONQUEST... I AM TO LOVE NOW!! To love you, I will spend time with you (this exchange), rather that "ignoring you" and going off to "navel gaze", pretending that my GOAL is more important than YOU, the LOVE of MY LIFE place in my LIFE by the ONE... Not LOVE tomorrow when all those I could have loved have "passed". Those who claim to have loved the family and friends but spent all their time chasing the MASTER (or GOD) around the world in their arranged "tours", living at their hotels (Santosh's LOTUS hotels), and in their "rented facilities", and purchased their "books, tapes, pictures" have not LOVED their family but neglected them for their "selfish", and co-dependent GOALS...that is narcisistic to say the least...That is to "Save yourself" by loving a stranger (the Master), and his acolytes (also strangers), and the hell with those the ONE has put around you to LOVE and SPEND TIME WITH...(your family and friends, community, pets, NATURE, etc...)...The manicured lawns of the Ashrams, the airports, and the "fairgrounds" are not "NATURAL"...THE ONE's creation of the ALL around you are NATURAL!

There is a saying in Christianity that is falsely or rightly attached to Jesus, the Christ(Saviour): ONE CAN'T SERVE TWO MASTERS...One will love one and neglect the other (the family)...One will serve one and detest the other for taking up too much of one's time...

I wish for you to "BE" Spritual NOW, and LOVE and SERVE (spend TIME with) those that the ONE (what Chari calls the Male God) has put around you, rather than searching for STRANGERS TO LOVE and SERVE and/or to SAVE YOU from your "terrible" fate of LOVING your family, friends, pets, community, NATURE, the PLANET, the COSMOS...the OUTSIDE WORLD!!

From some "unknown" poet..(paraphrased)

When I am saved, I will LOVE the family and the friends and spend some time with them, I will feed the hungry, and shelter the homeless, clothe the naked, the SEEKER cries... Well finally the SEEKER found what he/she was seeking for but the FAmily and Friends, society, NATURE did not wait and MOVED ON with thier lives and the SEEKER was left alone with his/her guilt, shame, and narcisism...

PS...This will be read by more than you so I will "smile" at them also...It seems to be something that some, the pseudo-spiritual, want to HIDE from view...lol ;-))

Go in PEACE and LOVE, COMPASSION and CARING for those around you! SERVE the POOR, the NEEDY, the SICK...They need it...The wealthy don't need more MATERIAL or EGO to distract them in the OUTSIDE WORLD...The CREATED UNIVERSE.... GO INSIDE...You don't have to TRAVEL to get there...YOU ARE THERE ALREADY...

PS... We only use FIRE (red end (emotional) of the Electromagnetic Spectrum) because the Blue end (intellectual) is not accessible by the RELIGIONS who use "EMOTIONS" to ensnare the "unthinking"...I would prefer to use the BLUE end of LOGIC and intellect than the RED end of EMOTIONS... But the archangels will use all of the EM SPECTRUM to affect TRANSFORMATION... And we (Homo Sapiens) will TRANSFORM for the sake of LIFE!! or SURVIVAL!!!

4d-don--don (talk) 17:37, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Undid your comment
Hi, I undid your comment on this MfD. It somehow broke the page. If you with to re-add it, feel free to do so, but please make sure you place it at the correct spot, not on the top of the discussion, and that it does not break the page. Thanks and best wishes! Charon X /talk 19:29, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

One more input
What is constant remembrance ?? i have found some explanation about it, but am unable to figure out where to start with, can you chip in and add this section ? --talk-to-me! (talk) 18:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Soapboxing
Hello 4d-don, please discontinue using user talk pages, deletion discussions, and sockpuppet reports as a soapbox to spread a point of view. They do not contribute to any discussion in a productive way and thus are subject to being removed.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 20:10, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Response
H i 4d-don, All I can say I don't support any kind of personal attack, for the simple reason that each one of us have the same potential inside and if looked from that angle, how different are we from each other any ways? I have no idea what/why you have written all this in my page. Also a request, just like Persian Poet Gal said above, please do not spread your POV at places like SUSPSOCK reports, it doesn't help any one, least you. Duty2love (talk) 03:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

A Request
I'm placing this on your personal talk page, because it's a request - Please desist from making denigrating references about the Sahaj Marg practice. You consider a lot of the stuff on this page as "dogma" or "PR". Please know that a lot of the things you say can also easily come across as hate speech. The *ONLY* way we're ever going to hit middle ground on this (or any) article is to tread lightly when walking on sensitive terrain. Hope you understand.. :) Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 00:10, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

My Reply...

I will continue to call PR and DOGMA and POV what it is in this case and in other similar cases where "fantasy merchants" attempt to ensnare the gullible public in my "WIKI WORLD", with their "made-up" or "invented" or "created" theologies and mythologies. You can believe what you want...I can also, and I can SPEAK it also on WIKI...The HATE is in your faith-based MIND or YOUR SPIRIT, not mine.

For the sake of WIKI concensus, do not call that "HATE". That is an "emotional" word used by the "religious" and the "faith-based" to feign "persecution" and then have the right to retaliate (delete) with emotional (not spiritual) accusations of "HATE" that does not exist....and it is NOT WIKI acceptable...If you are "sensitive" to the terms "PR" and "DOGMA" get your "GANG" to stop putting out "statements of belief" or religious or "spiritualism" DOGMAS as FACTS...or false PR!

Please keep the Sahaj Marg content "OPEN to all", and in the "SAHAJ MARG Discussion page, not on my private page...

4d-don--don (talk) 16:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Question
Hi Don, I found this post really interesting. In my husband's meditation system they're always focusing on seeing the light and I never could get that; I only felt a warm red diffuse glow. Then, I read this by Babuji and was struck -- if you're one with the light that's what you would "see," a warm reddish glow emanating outward (and, I realized if you "see" the light then you're still separate from it). I had understood that Babuji always advocated making a suggestion or mere supposition of divine light in the heart (not imagine it but just gently suggest it's there and let it go). Did he actually say "imagine"? Btw, sorry for calling you a meatpuppet of Shashwat/CFW. I was mixing up similar POVs with personalities, and your personality and approach is much, much different. I apologize.Renee (talk) 12:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Reneeholle

Hi...

You are so right...I was doing it from memory and I am getting "craft" I think...(Can't Remember A _ucking Thing)... ;-))...

Spirituality should remain "subtle" so as to MERGE with ALL, and not DIVIDE, and "imagining" is forming an 'image" and that is too strong...Babuji used (I think...and I am stll "REMEMBERING" so I could be in error) "gentle suggestion" or "gentle supposition" or ??? something to that effect.

You are right, IMHO, about being OUTSIDE the LIGHT if you see it...If we were inside the SUN, we would not see it SHINING...but we would see more of an opaque SOUP in scalar (in all direction or hence "NO" direction) MOTION emaning from all points in our SPHERE...We would BE the LIGHT (or PART of the LIGHT...so as to not get egotistical) and visible only to those OUTSIDE the LIGHT or SUN...

You can change that ("imagined")and make it more accurate as per this conversation...

Apology accepted...no harm done...no effect registered on my heart...What did you say again? Darn CRAFT thing again... lol ;-))

4d-Don--don (talk) 17:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Soapboxing
Edits such as this [] are in violation of WP:NOT. Please use the talk pages for discussing the article, not for advancing or voicing your position on outside matters. Sethie (talk) 05:26, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Sethie...

If you don't like my post, don't claim that I am advancing a positiong...This is not "OUTSIDE MATTERS"...this is about SRCM and why the FRENCH report is IMPORTANT to include...And I am not voicing a POV exept that the last line...If you don't like that onem (My POV) I will take it out as it was very LIGHT... the rest is a QUESTION about including some INFORMATION from the SRCM and their MASTER, in the ARTICLE...or at least, include that that someone CREDIBLE, a commision, a group of PEOPLE, thinks that they are being "NOT RELIGIOUS", NOT CIVIL, or even "HARMFUL" in a "SECTARIAN" or a "GROUP" way...Then we would not have to get into the content that every COMMISSIONS looks at to make their decisions wether to include one group, individual etc.. or not... I have sat on enough "committees" to know..Have you? Why do you not want to look at the MATERIAL...IS IT NOT A REALITY...a FACT...the next question is "Is it accurate"...the answer is NO...all religions do not do what is stated in that VBSE...so it is false Propaganda for the sake of what? to UNITE or to GROW the BUSINESS?

Let it stand or take it to a higher court than you and Renee that you collude and conspire with...

What's next? Edit wars and delete or block? You can try and reach concensus or let someone else "ASK QUESTIONS" and bring more "TABOO" information to the GROUP...and at least TRY...The PR JOB will not WORK here either... WE will write a "balance" article in spite of you or with you...

4d-don

REALITY CHECK
... Why do some from other "RELGIONS" think SRCM is a "harmful" sect, including some who may be a "members of a "COMMISSION"?

Can we say that (in discussion): Although SRCM wants RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, and it's members demand "civility", and don't want to be "lumped in" with others as they claim 4d-don did above, these editors don't mind lumping-in 30 honorable members of a "Commision" from a "sovereign" country and question their credibility and even attempt at un-spiritually defaming and slandering them...(see above Renee and Marathi).

For the article, can we state on WIKI that SRCM teaches RELIGIOUS INTOLERANCE and RELGIOUS HATRED? using these direct quotes from the SRCM material (not my POV but SRCM's and Chari's POV)?

From the Value Based Spiritual Education curriculum, lesson #10 taught at the SRCM's Lalaji Memorial OMEGA School: (the whole curriculum is on-line [here]

There are five very important reasons, why we should get away from religious bondage –

a. It creates division among people.

b. Every religion talks of "one God" but states that only their God is the best.

c. It promotes disharmony, violence and wars.

d. The real meaning of the tenets is forgotten and only the rituals are adhered to.

e. Religions put fear and temptations into the hearts of the people.

'''All religions in the world say the same thing i.e. "seek within". But do they? The answer is NO. Then what is the way? Transcend religion and move towards spirituality. '''

or from Chari's speech (Reverence, Respect & Restraint), Denmark, Nov. 2005, see references) [here]:

''If we were in a religion, we would have to go to church and "you know", tell lies in that "wonderful place called the confessional". “Lord, forgive me for what I have done this week.” And there would be an equally sinful priest on the other side of the curtain saying, “In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ I absolve you of your sins.” Something that he has no power to do.''

or at a preceptors' seminar in January, 2001, Chari stated (you can find the complete quote on this [blog]:

"In the Indian scene, the Hindus and Hinduism is corrupt. God is personified as somebody who can be bribed with gifts, with so called prasads - offering temptation of Heaven which fact Babuji emphasized in His teachings, saying that religions depends on two instruments - temptation and fear."

Can we say that SRCM at it's school, LMOS, teaches "nationalism"? Is not "nationalism" a form of corruption? [here]

''An exhibition was conducted by the children of the school coinciding with the occasion - the theme being "Invincible India - An Insight". Rev. Master Graced the occasion by His physical presence.''

Just questions... for clarification and for a REALITY CHECK!! WE all MEDITATE so as to SEE REALITY, right? The REALITY is that SRCM is named in TWO COMMISSION REPORT IN FRANCE and is on a LIST of "harmful sectes" in Belgium... The claims of being "discredited are POV beyond the qualification of other committees or WIKI editors... and are not FACT but POV and simply a CLAIM...by a member..

4d-don--don (talk) 06:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Again Soapboxing
I have removed two of the following threads that you posted here. I have warned you in the past that it is not appropriate to soapbox and push your point of views. The content of the two threads mainly consisted of POV pushing regarding the article's subject and criticism of editors. 1) Article talk pages are not general discussion forums to share your philosophies and 2) they are not a place to critique or attack editors. So once again, I must ask you to refrain from the soapboxing.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 09:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a few after I asked you to stop soapboxing, PPG asked you. A few hours later, you're at it again. []

It is your choice to stop or not. If you choose not to, I will seek sanctions against this behavior.

Welcome to Wikipedia! I am glad to see you are interested in discussing a topic. However, as a general rule, talk pages are for discussion related to improving the article, not general discussion about the topic. If you have specific questions about certain topics, consider visiting our reference desk and asking them there instead of on article talk pages.

Sethie (talk) 21:11, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Don, I have no knowledge of this article and I wouldn't be of much help deciphering sources. There is no "higher body" that could enforce instating/removing a source anyway, unless you are interested in getting involved in formal dispute resolution processes. I agree that much of the editing around Sahaj Marg has been unproductive but you have most noticeably used such pages to soapbox. Talk pages aren't meant to critique the subject of an article but the content. Such comments like this excerpt from Talk:Sahaj Marg

I think that others on WIKI should know about the views PROMOTED by this GROUP and the hackjob the "obedient followers" of this GROUP are doing on WIKI, in their attempts to HIDE the FACTS from OTHERS, including false promotion, with FALSE PR, Misrepresentation (RAJA YOGA) using WIKIPEDIA as their PR vehicle. Articles by all MEMBERS are as should be SUSPECT and are not acceptable by many on this discussion page. Pushes the boundary of critiquing content and is down right attacking the subject. Also, this habit of questioning/labeling people of being "cult members" has really got to stop. I am not a member of Sahaj Marg and the only familiarity I have with this subject is the disruptive editing surrounding it.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 22:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)


 * [] Please stop posting articles to preach or advance your position. [[Image:Information.svg|25px]] Please do not use talk pages for general discussion of the topic. They are for discussion related to improving the article. They are not to be used as a forum or chat room. See here for more information.


 * [[Image:Nuvola apps important.svg|25px]] Please stop. If you continue to use talk pages for inappropriate discussion, you may be blocked. Please stop posting articles that may not meet wikipedia standards. Just provide a link. This is not a place for you to go out, gather whatever critical information you want, and post it, as you did here: []


 * A more civil, helpful and reasonable approach would be to post a link, or ask people, hey does an article from such and such newspaper sound like it qualifies per wiki standards, first. Sethie (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop using the talk page to try and discuss how other people "bullying" or "using diversions" etc. [] Over the past week, nearly every post of yours on the talk page is about how the other editors are "doing wrong," with little to not focus on the creating an article. Just as Persian Poet Gal removed my comment that were not focused on the article, I would ask you to do the same.

Please file complaints about user behavior to WP:ANI, WP:3O, or WP:WQA and keep the focus of the article pages about the article. This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits. If you continue to use talk pages for inappropriate discussions you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Wishing you happiness, Sethie (talk) 23:03, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop you soapboxing, as you did here []. Sethie (talk) 05:39, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Please discontinue posts such as this: []. They violate WP:SOAP. Sethie (talk) 15:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:AGF
I have asked you nicely to comply with this policy, and you have not. So now I will formally do so. Per this comment []

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we must insist that you assume good faith while interacting with other editors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Sethie (talk) 21:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Labeling those who disagree with you as "members of a cult" is wrong and not helpful. You haven't even bothered to ask me if I was "a member" you just assumed I was. Now, since Persian Poet Girl has shown some concern with your behavior, she is now a member too? Please stop such actions. Please remember to assume good faith when dealing with other editors.

Hi
Don, I don't know if you can hear this or not, since you seem convinced that I and everyone else who disagrees with you is a cult member....

I am not a member of SCRM. I am a DEVOUT agnostic. I am a member of the Church of "I don't know." To me, whatever spiritual beliefs you hold are equally true, false and absurd as Sahaj Marg.

Some of the SM stuff resonates with me (as metaphor), some of it sounds silly to me.

I bet some of the accusations you and Shashwat have on your blogs, probably has some truth to them. Most religious movements do.

And wikipedia has rules. It is a sport. In basketball you can't hold the ball and move. In wikipedia anything controversial needs an EXCELLENT source. Most of the sources you and Shashwat are coming up with just flat out suck.

I am an expert on sucky sources. I spent over two year trying to use wikipedia as a means to "expose" the wrongs of the Transcendental Meditation movement. I spent hours everyday hunting for any scrap of anything I could find that would discredit the movement. If you don't believe me, look through the history and archives of the talk pages.

Unlike Shashwat I believe you have the capacity to learn how wikipedia works, and contribute. I hope you make the choices that will allow this to happen. Which every way you go, I wish you well.

And I will fight to make sure this article is fair. Come up with a GOOD source and I will fight to include it. Sethie (talk) 07:07, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

A question
Since his block, has Shashwat or Cult-free world contacted you and asked you to post or say certain things here on wikipedia for him? And have you done so?

Thanks, Sethie (talk) 20:13, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Time and Age
Don: In your comments for me, you say you are retired and have a lot of time and whether I have the time. I had an interesting thought that the older one gets, less and less time he has (unless of course he / she has made peace with time itself). I don't mean any disrespect, because I respect you for the very fact that you are much older than me, I just had this sudden thought and I wanted to share with you. Peace...

I agree with your point though that I should not pre-judge. I was simply placing my initial questions that popped in my mind when you presented those newspaper articles. Embhee (talk) 02:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Your Last Warning Regarding Soapboxing
4d-don, this is starting to get unacceptable. You are not using article talk pages to constructively discuss changes but to frequently heavily criticize other editors as well as push your point-of-view. If you have issues with other editors they should not be presented on an article talk page. I pointed you to the dispute resolution processes, which you have chosen to ignore. So please keep it off the talk pages and take pressing concerns to the appropriate venue.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 08:55, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

*sigh* 4d-don, this has nothing to do with blacklisting. I tried to explain to you numerous times what the issue was. You turning an issue with the behavioral guideline into an issue of censorship. I will continue to try and work towards a concensus and they Renee and Sethie will probably try and have me blocked as they did the others...and pretend they know the rules (guidelines??)...but their interpretation is "DOGMATIC" and not "common sense". Read them yourself and see how the other articles on WIKI are more "encyclopedic" and BALANCED than this one. THIS DIVISIVENESS will not be GOOD for SAHAJ MARG and reflects back to them, the EASY PATH...not NATURAL at all but avoiding REALITY! (SOME Government COMMISSIONS have named SRCM) and rightly so IMHO... Babuji would not do that!! Chari would! If you are unable to see how comments like that do not contribute to a discussion whatsoever, then I'm very concerned. Just please, leave that kind of colorful commentary off article talk pages. Thank you. I will not bother you further.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, I will contact Sethie and ask him/her to step back from pushing/examining you about who you communicate with with (I have removed the comment by Sethie on the talk page urging you to answer that question). Just some clarification regarding your comment "reFRAME from dialogueing"...you are absolutely free to use the Talk:Sahaj Marg and scrutinize the content, what I was explicitly asking you was not to soapbox or scrutinize editors on that page.  Hope that clears it up.  By the way, are you familiar with posting diffs?  Next time feel free to link to diffs to compact conversations.¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  18:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is completely inaccurate PPG. I have asked you to talk about this.... and you chose not to. What actually occurred is summarized here []. Sethie (talk) 03:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:NPA
[] Please stop your comments about me and other editors and focus only on content of the article. How did I "become like that?" How rude! You would never say such a thing to another human being in person. Sitting at a computer doesn't change the standards of deceny and politeness.

Welcome to Wikipedia. Although everyone is welcome to contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, we would like to remind you not to attack other editors. Please comment on the contributions and not the contributors. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Sethie (talk) 05:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't refer to me as a donkey as you did here. [] It doesn't help us move forward. Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Sethie (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Please stop your commenting on other users as you did here "As far as I can see, you can't see very far... ;-))"

[] Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Sethie (talk) 18:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Per this edit, []. Don, it is one thing to say that an edit looks looks like a POV push. It is another to make half veiled jabs at someone. Please stop. Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Sethie (talk) 20:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Mediation
Don I think that you are taking a very good step by considering mediation. Mediation is a process of not deciding "who wins" but to find a solution that would be appropriate for all parties involved. Here's some suggestions regarding the types of mediation you can consider:

First Step(s)
 * 1) If you feel it is best to keep the focus on article content and not so much the conduct of other editors, consider the Mediation Cabal and formal mediation. The Mediation Cabal is on the informal side and has somewhat of a more lax format.  While formal mediation has a much stricter format when reviewing and discussing cases.  Note that in both types of mediation none of the proposed solutions are binding and all editors must show a willingness to participate in the mediation.
 * 2) Another way to scrutinize article content is by filing a request for comment on the article talk page. To request an RFC on an article, follow the detailed instructions here.

Second Step
 * If you want to seek mediation that focuses more on user conduct, the waters are going to get a bit more serious.  Just like I mentioned in suggestion #2 under First Step(s), you can file a request for comment on user conduct.  This kind of RFC is not to be taken lightly or in haste.  To do so, follow the instructions here and here.  Note this is mostly a deep discussion of a user's conduct and provides the community's view of the user at the moment.  Any outcome is considered a "desired outcome" and not one that will necessarily happen.

Final Step
 * The final step Arbitration, is considered the ultimate last resort. Any decisions made by the Arbitration committee are considered binding.  Note, the Arbitration Committee will not easily accept any proposed case and will often turn down cases that were submitted without any previous attempts at less formal mediation.  I highly recommend not to take this avenue as it can be a very excruciating process.  However, if you exhaust most of the steps I mentioned above you can submit a Request for Arbitration by following the instructions here and here.

Hope all goes well and any mediation you consider will lead to fruitful results.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 20:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
 * "...with the support of one "admin"" & "to then "BULLY" their way with the help of an "admin"" I am not supporting anything, I merely made a suggestion that spawned a whole odd discussion. I wasn't saying the statement needed to be removed, I said it had tone issues and needs an npov tweak.  4d-don calm down please, I gave you many useful links up there, why do you not want to take the constructive means to handle your disputes?  Your actions are perplexing me more and more.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  05:44, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh I see. By the way I see where the confusion got me to think it was me.  Sethie is not an administrator.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  19:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion
There is a discussion regarding some of your posts here. Renee (talk) 20:26, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

An appology
Having sat with it, I regret asking you the "have you posted anything for Shashwat" question twice and specifically asking you on the talk page.

Asking on the talk page made things more messy, and asking twice was more aggression then was unnecessary.

I am really going to work on not using excess force, and keeping the talk page tidy. Wishing you happiness! Sethie (talk) 20:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Voting on AGE LIMIT Caution
(Please do not delete)

Attention all readers...So as to reach a "concensus", please give your input in this section regarding this entry to the Sahaj Marg Article...You can just log in, and copy other's post (vote)of your choice, and use the "electronic" signature above (don (talk) 20:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)) after you post so as to hide your IPS number. No discussion is necessary. A short comment is appreciated. We will count the votes in two weeks and then move to the next step of either putting in the sentence or going to mediation.

Voting on Age limit Caution

Don's vote:

Please include in the article, in the section called "Practice", in the last line of the section, in the same font and font size, (and not in the footnotes), the following sentence, which is in many published books, in the PR of the Mission and in interviews with and speeches of the current Guru of one of the 'Factions" of the Shri Ram Chandra Mission, the proponents of Sahaj Marg.

"According to Babuji, the Founder of the system, Sahaj Marg meditation is only recommended for those over 18 yrs of age"

4d-don--don (talk) 20:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I really, really, really admire that you wish to get the word out about something that you see as dangerous and harmful.

I really, really, really don't like or respect your attempts to use wikipedia to do that, given that your actions consistantly go against how wikipedia operates.

Wikipedia does not work by people who have never edited here before, showing up, "voting" and trying to hide where they are from by using your signature. Please see WP:MEAT, WP:CON and very specifically WP:NOTDEMOCRACY. Sethie (talk) 20:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Don, meatpuppetry is not to be encouraged. It is better to encourage established users to discuss (not !vote) rather than IP addresses or new users.  This gives the impression that someone who was informed of the debate can create a single purpose account to sway the discussion.  You still have not tried to get an outside opinion through the mediation links I provided.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:05, 26 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Don it appears your first "meatpuppet" has appeared and voted. [] Please don't invite any more new people to come and try and "create" concensus through "voting." Sethie (talk)
 * Encouraging readers is exactly my point...encourage established users please. Comments placed by single purpose accounts are rarely given weight in any debate.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  23:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur PersianPG, new users "voting" doesn't mean anything. Established users weighing in is everything. Sethie (talk) 00:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Trust me you will get a neutral party at mediation. According to the Mediation policy "Mediation is an activity in which a neutral third party, the mediator, assists two or more parties in order to help them achieve an agreement on a matter of common interest."  It wouldn't even be mediation if we allowed someone involved in this conflict to be a mediator, plus, you can simply refuse to participate in the mediation if the mediator is not truly a neutral third party.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk)  00:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Also another clarification, if you go with formal mediation you will only get members of the Mediation Committee.<i style="font-family:comic sans ms; color:purple;">¤~Persian Poet Gal</i> <sup style="color:purple;">(talk) 00:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do not remove other's comments
As you did here: [] and [] Talk cannot function when you remove other's discussions on issues. Please don't. Sethie (talk) 00:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * To whom it may concern, Don has said that he did not do this intentionally and I believe him. Sethie (talk) 01:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

COI, Meat/Sockpuppets
Don, once again you have made meat, sock, and COI accusations. []

If you believe anyone on the Sahaj Marg page has a COI that would prohibit them from editing, please report it here: []

If you believe anyone on the page is a meat or sockpuppet, please report it here: []/

I would in the strongest language urge you to either take action about your accusations or stop making them on article or talk pages! :( It just "poisons the well" and makes things worse.

Again, I would ask you, if every other post to you I said, "Sorry Don, what you say is invalid because you are an anti-SCRM blogger." Do you feel like that would be helpful? Is that how you want to be treated?Sethie (talk) 02:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Question
Don,

Hope you are doing well! In your recent posts, I have seen you using following statements about me, just wondering what is the basis for these comments. I would like to find and correct any incorrect things I might have said.

''If you and duty2love are right, I should find no one who agrees with me, and on WIKI, the biggest gang wins the fight according to DUTY2love! ;-))''

..as WIKI is not about "numbers" as in a "democracy" as per Duty2love's previous statement to that effect... Duty2love (talk) 23:09, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikiquette Alerts
There is a discussion about you here: []. Sethie (talk) 19:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Deceptive edit summaries
Please make accurate use of the edit summary function, here [] you said "Reply to Jaysweet" when in fact you were just reposting your soapboxing. Use deceptive edit summaries is a way to try and sneak edits in, please don't. Sethie (talk) 16:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

moved blogging
embhee

To claim to be a "raja yoga", and to be "easy" are contradictions. When the GURU says HE does everything and the abhyasis simply "obeys" (the most important feature of Sahaj Marg, according to Chari), then it is not Raja Yoga, as describe by Patanjali, or Vivekananda. (see [here]. Chari claims that Sahaj Marg has ["no philosopphy"].  Read the first paragraph of the WIKI article on Raja Yoga.  Have any of you been instructed in any of this "philosophy" at Sahaj Marg?  Do you practice any of this (see the eight rungs)?  Does Chari? does SRCM(California)?  Babuji maybe did, that is debateable and I would let it pass for him,  but not for SRCM (California) or Chari.  It is just "obvious" and COMMON SENSE...

But, the kicker is, to quote a book on World Religions after SRCM (California) and Chari bad-mouths religions to Children as per SRCM(California) (Value Based Spirituality Education) VBSE curriculum, lesson 10. [available on-line here]...What Spiritual Values?

There are five very important reasons, why we should get away from religious bondage –

a. It creates division among people.

b. Every religion talks of "one God" but states that only their God is the best.

c. It promotes disharmony, violence and wars.

d. The real meaning of the tenets is forgotten and only the rituals are adhered to.

e. Religions put fear and temptations into the hearts of the people.

''All religions in the world say the same thing i.e. "seek within". But do they? The answer is NO.''

And then his "bad-mouthing" of Hiduism at his [speech to preceptors in 2001...available here] and Christianity in Denmark (I can find that speech too):

At a preceptors' seminar in January, 2001, Chari stated:

"In the Indian scene, the Hindus and Hinduism is corrupt. God is personified as somebody who can be bribed with gifts, with so called prasads - offering temptation of Heaven which fact Babuji emphasized in His teachings, saying that religions depends on two instruments - temptation and fear."

"I am afraid that Sahaj Marg is suffering in this way because even when Christian people become abhyasis and preceptors, they somehow, somewhere along the way seem to lose this idea of love, charity, compassion, faith and become preceptors. So what Spirituality offers and can deliver, our priesthood, I would categorize you as, say temporarily as priesthood - they destroy." (Speech, Preceptor's Seminar, Jan. 2001-See references)

It makes one shake one's head in amazement...

I chaired many "charities" and journalism student, fresh from the classroom would come to me and ask if I wanted our "Charity" included in a "list of charities" in our area...If I said yes, then there was a fee and a contract to distribute the book...

A list of WORLD RELIGIONS from the PR of those RELIGIONS is not credible by "journalistic" criteria, but will add some credibility to some "RELIGIONS" such as Sahaj Marg...Sahaj Marg is now a WORLD RELIGION!! yeah Right!!

That is why some readers (not the editors here now) left Sahaj Marg when Chari took over... The ethics are not "high" and the practice is not very SPIRITUAL and very divisive...by it's own criteria.

Again from lesson 10 of the [VBSE] last line, taught at the Lalaji Memorial OMEGA school...(why OMEGA?)

To sum up,

1. Religion appears to divide man from man, while spirituality “Unites all”.

2. Spirituality shapes a person to perfection and brings out the best in him.

3. Spirituality leads one towards Divinity and finally helps to merge with the Ultimate.

4d-don--don (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

PS... I now invite others to come to this site to see what is reflected here by the disciples of Chari...Is it UNITY or DIVISION?

embhee

DO NOT ERASE THIS DISCUSSION RELEVANT TO SAHAJ MARG BEING A RAJA YOGA as per WIKI

To claim to be a "raja yoga", and to be "easy" are contradictions. When the GURU says HE does everything and the abhyasis simply "obeys" (the most important feature of Sahaj Marg, according to Chari), then it is not Raja Yoga, as describe by Patanjali, or Vivekananda. (see [here]. Chari claims that Sahaj Marg has ["no philosopphy"].  Read the first paragraph of the WIKI article on Raja Yoga.  Have any of you been instructed in any of this "philosophy" at Sahaj Marg?  Do you practice any of this (see the eight rungs)?  Does Chari? does SRCM(California)?  Babuji maybe did, that is debateable and I would let it pass for him,  but not for SRCM (California) or Chari.  It is just "obvious" and COMMON SENSE...

But, the kicker is, to quote a book on World Religions after SRCM (California) and Chari bad-mouths religions to Children as per SRCM(California) (Value Based Spirituality Education) VBSE curriculum, lesson 10. [available on-line here]...What Spiritual Values?

There are five very important reasons, why we should get away from religious bondage –

a. It creates division among people.

b. Every religion talks of "one God" but states that only their God is the best.

c. It promotes disharmony, violence and wars.

d. The real meaning of the tenets is forgotten and only the rituals are adhered to.

e. Religions put fear and temptations into the hearts of the people.

''All religions in the world say the same thing i.e. "seek within". But do they? The answer is NO.''

And then his "bad-mouthing" of Hiduism at his [speech to preceptors in 2001...available here] and Christianity in Denmark (I can find that speech too):

At a preceptors' seminar in January, 2001, Chari stated:

"In the Indian scene, the Hindus and Hinduism is corrupt. God is personified as somebody who can be bribed with gifts, with so called prasads - offering temptation of Heaven which fact Babuji emphasized in His teachings, saying that religions depends on two instruments - temptation and fear."

"I am afraid that Sahaj Marg is suffering in this way because even when Christian people become abhyasis and preceptors, they somehow, somewhere along the way seem to lose this idea of love, charity, compassion, faith and become preceptors. So what Spirituality offers and can deliver, our priesthood, I would categorize you as, say temporarily as priesthood - they destroy." (Speech, Preceptor's Seminar, Jan. 2001-See references)

It makes one shake one's head in amazement...

I chaired many "charities" and journalism student, fresh from the classroom would come to me and ask if I wanted our "Charity" included in a "list of charities" in our area...If I said yes, then there was a fee and a contract to distribute the book...

A list of WORLD RELIGIONS from the PR of those RELIGIONS is not credible by "journalistic" criteria, but will add some credibility to some "RELIGIONS" such as Sahaj Marg...Sahaj Marg is now a WORLD RELIGION!! yeah Right!!

That is why some readers (not the editors here now) left Sahaj Marg when Chari took over... The ethics are not "high" and the practice is not very SPIRITUAL and very divisive...by it's own criteria.

Again from lesson 10 of the [VBSE] last line, taught at the Lalaji Memorial OMEGA school...(why OMEGA?)

To sum up,

1. Religion appears to divide man from man, while spirituality “Unites all”.

2. Spirituality shapes a person to perfection and brings out the best in him.

3. Spirituality leads one towards Divinity and finally helps to merge with the Ultimate.

4d-don--don (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

PS... I now invite others to come to this site to see what is reflected here by the disciples of Chari...Is it UNITY or DIVISION? embhee

To claim to be a "raja yoga", and to be "easy" are contradictions. When the GURU says HE does everything and the abhyasis simply "obeys" (the most important feature of Sahaj Marg, according to Chari), then it is not Raja Yoga, as describe by Patanjali, or Vivekananda. (see [here]. Chari claims that Sahaj Marg has ["no philosopphy"].  Read the first paragraph of the WIKI article on Raja Yoga.  Have any of you been instructed in any of this "philosophy" at Sahaj Marg?  Do you practice any of this (see the eight rungs)?  Does Chari? does SRCM(California)?  Babuji maybe did, that is debateable and I would let it pass for him,  but not for SRCM (California) or Chari.  It is just "obvious" and COMMON SENSE...

But, the kicker is, to quote a book on World Religions after SRCM (California) and Chari bad-mouths religions to Children as per SRCM(California) (Value Based Spirituality Education) VBSE curriculum, lesson 10. [available on-line here]...What Spiritual Values?

There are five very important reasons, why we should get away from religious bondage –

a. It creates division among people.

b. Every religion talks of "one God" but states that only their God is the best.

c. It promotes disharmony, violence and wars.

d. The real meaning of the tenets is forgotten and only the rituals are adhered to.

e. Religions put fear and temptations into the hearts of the people.

''All religions in the world say the same thing i.e. "seek within". But do they? The answer is NO.''

And then his "bad-mouthing" of Hiduism at his [speech to preceptors in 2001...available here] and Christianity in Denmark (I can find that speech too):

At a preceptors' seminar in January, 2001, Chari stated:

"In the Indian scene, the Hindus and Hinduism is corrupt. God is personified as somebody who can be bribed with gifts, with so called prasads - offering temptation of Heaven which fact Babuji emphasized in His teachings, saying that religions depends on two instruments - temptation and fear."

"I am afraid that Sahaj Marg is suffering in this way because even when Christian people become abhyasis and preceptors, they somehow, somewhere along the way seem to lose this idea of love, charity, compassion, faith and become preceptors. So what Spirituality offers and can deliver, our priesthood, I would categorize you as, say temporarily as priesthood - they destroy." (Speech, Preceptor's Seminar, Jan. 2001-See references)

It makes one shake one's head in amazement...

I chaired many "charities" and journalism student, fresh from the classroom would come to me and ask if I wanted our "Charity" included in a "list of charities" in our area...If I said yes, then there was a fee and a contract to distribute the book...

A list of WORLD RELIGIONS from the PR of those RELIGIONS is not credible by "journalistic" criteria, but will add some credibility to some "RELIGIONS" such as Sahaj Marg...Sahaj Marg is now a WORLD RELIGION!! yeah Right!!

That is why some readers (not the editors here now) left Sahaj Marg when Chari took over... The ethics are not "high" and the practice is not very SPIRITUAL and very divisive...by it's own criteria.

Again from lesson 10 of the [VBSE] last line, taught at the Lalaji Memorial OMEGA school...(why OMEGA?)

To sum up,

1. Religion appears to divide man from man, while spirituality “Unites all”.

2. Spirituality shapes a person to perfection and brings out the best in him.

3. Spirituality leads one towards Divinity and finally helps to merge with the Ultimate.

4d-don--don (talk) 05:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

PS... I now invite others to come to this site to see what is reflected here by the disciples of Chari...Is it UNITY or DIVISION?

Don--don (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

You missed the gist, or did not read the Teachings from the VBSE of SRCM(California)...It attacks all religions as:

a. It creates division among people.

b. Every religion talks of "one God" but states that only their God is the best.

c. It promotes disharmony, violence and wars.

d. The real meaning of the tenets is forgotten and only the rituals are adhered to.

e. Religions put fear and temptations into the hearts of the people.

''All religions in the world say the same thing i.e. "seek within". But do they? The answer is NO.''

That is not just RELIGION X... So your reply is not "on-topic"... It certainly shows that not much research was done to include such a group in a Book on RELIGIONS...Do you follow?

It is not that the book calls Sahaj Marg (by implication) a WORLD RELIGION, it is that the credibility of a BOOK that includes a GROUP that slanders all "RELIGIONS" in a book on RELIGIONS is an indication that the book is not well researched and hence not credible. In other words, the Book is just a LIST compiled from the available PR of the groups in the book (not all WORLD religions are in the book...by the way..just a selection..of course). As I mentionned above, I chaired many Charities and was approached many times to participate in such "books of lists"...All were by "journalism" students.

Sahaja Yoga in Belgium
Thanks for your comment on Sahaja Yoga in Belgium. If you feel that the wording in the current article could be improved, please suggest an improved wording. --Simon D M (talk) 16:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal - Ten Maxims
Pls let me know what you think about this proposal:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sahaj_Marg#Proposal_-_Ten_Maxims

Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I was in error
(my computer died- so I have been out of the loop).....

So sorry Don- I thought it was standard operating procedure to leave up blocked notices. I stand corrected. Sethie (talk) 03:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)