User talk:570mpp/sandbox

Very interesting topic Mark! A suggestion would be to spell out the dermal exposure route, as in how would that happen. I assume that post-vaccination the vaccine could ooze back out and while petting the dog you could get a dose that way? Also, I like the flowchart shown but it could be directly mentioned in the text? (Sorry if it was and I missed that.

Mark, couple suggestions. I would suggest removing the introduction heading and use that as the opening to your article (see my page if you are unsure what I mean). Under the toxicity section, you list 2 links for further information. I would suggest creating a "See Also" section at the end end of the article and place those links there (see Toxicology as an example). Finally, you have a lot of subsections with 1-2 sentences. Is it possible to combine some of these or add more info to some of them? There just seems to be alot of white space. -Vic 570vca (talk) 17:40, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the great suggestions, Wayne and Vic! Wayne: I didn't present possible scenarios for dermal exposure, but yours is one possible way. It could also be from vaccine administration activities (i.e. residual vaccine on the vial). 570mpp (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Another question Mark, on Biosafety practices, were the gloves found to help prevent contamination of the nsi by other agents (ie reduced bacterial infection) or were they in fact found to reduce incidence of injection of the vaccine? Would seem like the former and so it is slightly unclear to the reader if glove-wearing reduces nsi risk of thimerisol or of 2ndary infection. unsigned comment added by 570wac (talk • contribs) 23:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Wayne - Thanks. I now see where that could present some confusion. In theory, both situations could hold true. But in terms of thimerosal exposure, gloves reduced the inoculated volume and so exposure is reduced. 570mpp (talk) 14:07, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Mark, Very informative. I find it interesting that thimerosal was added as a cheap perservative in multi dose vials in veterinary vaccine. I never advocated multi dose vials because i was worried about contamination.Thimerosal is present up to 0.01% or 50 micrograms in a 0.5ml dose - in veterinary medicine you use a 1 ml dose of vaccine so potentially it could contain 100 micrograms. In effects caused by thimerosal you could mention that there was a study by UC Davis in 2006, that indicates that thimerosal is a immunotoxicant as well as a neurotoxin.570nlh (talk) 22:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)nancy hannaway

Nancy - Thanks for the edits and comments! Those references are very helpful. 570mpp (talk) 22:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

I like the overall structure and presentation but I have several questions. I am not clear on the occupational exposure limits. Is one for inhalation and the other for dermal? And does the "/m3" mean volume of inhaled air in the first case and skin area in the second? Need to be clear. Is either relevant to NSI exposure? Is there no information available on parenteral effects? Isn't accidental exposure by NSI the only relevant exposure in the veterinary setting? If so, the other routes of exposure don't seem needed here (I am flexible on this I just what to understand your approach). I don't know why the flux equation is shown under dermal if it is not put to any application in the rest of the Wiki entry. Although data are not available, might one infer higher rates of NSI for veterinary techs than for veterinaries (who is more likely to be giving the vaccination)? What happens to the injected Thirmersol - is it localized or does it circulate in the body? How much of an exposure does 1 uL translate to in comparison to the toxic levels in the blood stream? The ratio of Hg injected to the threshold for concern in the bloodstream starts to inform the degree of risk.570jdw (talk) 18:29, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Mark, I found an article citing that thimerosal is 49.6% Hg. I didn't know quite where to put it...so place it where you want, but I think it's important since Hg is the toxic substance. Also, I don't know if it's worth mentioning this uncertainty, but it appears that ethylmercury is used in thimerosal but a lot of toxicity info uses methylmercury which is apparently more toxic(570ajk (talk) 23:50, 10 November 2011 (UTC))

Jeff - Thanks for the comments and questions! Both of the exposure limits are for skin. I will include another Wiki link that explains exposure limits more clearly. In all sincerity, I have given more thought to the content than might appear. I agree NSI is the only relevant exposure for vaccine administration, but I wanted to show that I have at least considered those routes in my process. As only skin absorption and inhalation are listed as routes of entry on the MSDS, I thought it was important to address those. There is a great deal of contradictory information and confusion about Thimerosal and it was my intent to help potential readers sort through the information by presenting a science-based approach. But perhaps Wiki is not the appropriate forum and I should just quickly make a point. I will include the other information, as you have suggested, in my next revision. 570mpp (talk) 14:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

AJ - Therein lies some of the confusion and uncertainty. Most of the toxicity data for Thimerosal is based on inorganic forms of Hg. It is important to point this out and make the case for potential exposure overestimation. Thanks! 570mpp (talk) 14:21, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Mark -- Sorry to see that "puppies" has left the title page. It sounded so fun.... A question I have is if thimerosal is not used, what is the alternative and what is its efficacy and side effects? Ceci570csc (talk) 02:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Cecilia - Thanks for your interest! In doing further research on this, limiting it to puppies introduced many more challenges and uncertainties. I had originally intended to present some efficacy data (public) on the alternatives, but I saw that it could be another project unto itself. Also, as my Agency regulates veterinary biologics, I must avoid any semblances of a position paper. 570mpp (talk) 16:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)