User talk:71.174.177.66

New dub information
If have stated in your edits that new information has come forward that the dub was done elsewhere. Could you provide a source that follows WP:RS that states this information? Andrzejbanas (talk) 03:35, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

The difficulty is the "international dub" was only just made available and HK dubs seldom had credits so there isn't much to go on in print. Much of the information gleaned about these dubs is simply from various people interviewing with and asking some of the voice actors who were involved and are still around. The international trailer is up on YouTube and it's pretty clear the voices are HK people. That's as close to the horse's mouth I can give you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swC1wZAJ5lU.

If the fact that the voices are obviously HK people and the voice actors have been in HK dubs like Godzilla vs. Gigan isn't enough, I get it, but I would at least like the false information that Frontier dubbed it off. I'm sure Steve had never heard that dub at the time because it was incredibly rare.

I am friendly with Steve Ryfle and he might be willing join this discussion if need be.
 * So where are the interviews? As stated before, we need them and we need to know they follow WP:RS standards. Have you read those rules? Andrzejbanas (talk) 04:30, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Here are interviews with Ted Thomas (who ran the company that likely dubbed Gargantuas) and Warwick Evans, who was later but knew some of the people involved. Outright dubbing it isn't mentioned but Linda Masson, Warren Rooke and Barry Haigh whose voices are all in the Gargantuas international dub are: https://vantagepointinterviews.com/2017/05/17/man-of-a-thousand-voices-hong-kong-voice-actor-ted-thomas-on-his-prolific-dubbing-career/ https://vantagepointinterviews.com/2018/08/25/from-dracula-to-dubbing-warwick-paul-evans-on-his-varied-career-in-hong-kong-entertainment/

Also here are some clips of various HK dub talent who were involved in the Gargantuas dub. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZtwmtff9hQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXQ_iNah0qM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLb9Z-qhW8M

Due to the obscurity and "fly by night" kind of operation of these dubbing firms as well as the lack of concrete information about them over the years, I can't give you much of a "paper trail" but I hope this is enough visual and audio evidence.
 * Maybe, but like, these are just youtube clips. Anyone could have uploaded them and put any voice they wanted over them. The vantage point interviews is interesting, but it appears to fail WP:SPS, as its a self-published source. We can't really include these as sources on wikipedia because they fail WP:RS. Andrzejbanas (talk) 01:39, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

Except for the fact that the clips are obviously taken straight from the movies themselves, but OK, feel free to keep outdated information up because the new and obviously self evident information hasn't been published in a book yet. The fact the dub was done in Hong Kong has been known in fan circles for years. If I got Steve Ryfle himself to get on here and say he made a mistake you probably still would insist on keeping this up. I'm done. Life has called and I don't have the time for this.
 * Actors, and voice actors to that extent, work various gigs for various studios. Ryan Reynolds played both Green Lantern (DC property) and Deadpool (Marvel property), that doesn't mean Deadpool is now a DC property just because the same actor worked for DC. Just like the Gargantuas export dub isn't a HK-dub just because it featured voice actors who've worked with HK recording studios later in their careers.


 * All the information and argument provided by the IP user falls under Synthesis of published material: combining multiple unrelated sources to make one single source/argument. I do not understand how the Ryfle source is wrong. Ryfle has researched and interviewed the individuals who produced the films and dubs, so his publications are verified and reliable. The IP user is making a pre-mature conclusion based on the assumption that just because the Gargantuas export dub featured voice-actors who've worked for HK dubbing studios, then the Gargantuas export dub must also be a HK dub. Armegon (talk) 05:33, 11 November 2018 (UTC)

OK, where do we even begin with this? I know you won't believe a word of what I say, but I wanna go on record with what I know. My friends and I have done years of our own research on this subject: watching these dubs, interviewing and contacting people involved, finding newspaper articles, etc. Information is so scant that the only way to really draw conclusions is through physical evidence. As I keep saying, these dubbing firms were very fly by night. They seldom left credits until the 80s and the voice actors were never credited. We have managed to identify voice actors by simply playing the voices of the people to some of the people we know were involved like Warwick Evans and asking "Who was that?". And I get that it is hardly the most academically sound way to do things but when there's no information, credits or much of paper trail to follow, how else do you collect information?

-First off, the Gargantuas international dub was only made available last year and the only way to hear it prior to that was on a Dutch VHS tape in PAL. So I have my *strong* suspicions Ryfle had never heard the dub at the time and just assumed it was a Tokyo dub because the other big Toho release that year, Ebirah/Sea Monster, had an international version dubbed in Tokyo. He also said Hedorah's international dub was dubbed in Tokyo when it's very obviously a Hong Kong one. Ryfle's book was published in 1998. It has a few things that are outdated in it! A lot of books do and Wikipedia's treatment of print media as being infallible is in of itself a fallacy. Also, did I mention that I am casual friends with Steve and have the utmost respect for the work he does? He would probably be happy to get on here and refute the Frontier misinformation and I'll be messaging him about this soon.

-There are none of the Tokyo dub voices in the Gargantuas dub: they included William Ross (who ran Frontier), Robert Dunham, Burr Middleton, Bud Widom and Patricia Kobayashi. I'm a fan and somewhat of a scholar on Hong Kong cinema too and, on the other hand, the Gargantuas international dub includes the voices of a distinctive voice actor probably named Nick Kendall, Linda Masson, Warren Rooke, Barry Haigh and others. Many of them can be heard in thousands of kung fu films.

-Third, this wasn't Hollywood. The Tokyo and HK dub scenes did not work together. They were both composed of Western ex-pat locals who lived in the respective cities and kinda moonlighted with this on the weekends. They were fairly amateur, though most of the HK people were newscasters so were a little better. You can find a lot of old Hong Kong TV and radio newscasts online with some of them. There was one guy, Dick Nieskens, who worked for both Frontier in Tokyo and Rik Thomas' firm Omni in Hong Kong, but that wasn't intentionally: that was because he moved from one pan-Asian city to another: https://vantagepointinterviews.com/2017/05/17/putting-words-in-their-mouths-dick-nieskens-talks-dubbing/.

-Even if Bill Ross said he dubbed Gargantuas, these dubbing firms dubbed *thousands* of films. Do you really expect elderly people who dubbed thousands of films to remember *every* film they dubbed and not make the occasional mistake in remembering everything themselves?

-Very little was known about Hong Kong dubbing in the US in the 90s. Not one dubber had been positively identified. Ted Thomas, who ran the original firm, Axis, that did dubbing in HK, wasn't tracked down until around 2008 or '09 or so by none other than Steve Ryfle himself.

I understand that there isn't enough of a paper trail to any of this to make it academically valid and that original research is forbidden on Wikipedia, but I think Gargantuas being dubbed by Frontier is disputed enough by now that it should be taken off and a more neutral prose on its "international dub" obscuring its origins should be adopted until the information my friends and I have uncovered is put in official print.

By the way, the Ted Thomas interview actually was printed, I forgot to mention, in an issue of G-FAN.
 * All I'm reading here is that you've speculated ALOT and jumped to your own conclusion without any concrete, dead-to-rights evidence. In regards to the Dutch VHS, Steve did manage to watch all the Japanese cuts of the Godzilla films and this was way before they were available in the West with English subtitles. He even accurately covers the Heisei films and that was before they were available in the West. So how you know Steve didn't watch the Dutch VHS as well? I spoke to Steve, yeah I'm friends with him too, and he told me the reason he noted that the Gargantuas export dub was produced by Frontier was because when he interviewed Ross for the book, he gave Steve a list of films that Frontier had dubbed. One of them being Gargantuas. I even sent Steve an HD copy of the export dub and he could not hear any British or continental accents that are common with all HK dubs, nor did he hear Ted Thomas's voice who is in all HK dubs. Again, just because you heard one voice-actor who worked for some HK dubs, doesn't mean that Gargantuas is also a HK dub. To date, Steve's info is the best info we have on the subject because he legitimately interviewed Ross for the book, Ross gave him an official list of Frontier's dubs, & Steve has been immensely reliable and verified with the information he's provided in books, essays & DVD commentaries. With all due respect, I'll believe you and happily revert the edit if you can find indisputable, verified evidence that proves the contrary. Armegon (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Stop Edit Warring
You have engaged in an edit war and have already made 3 reverts on the Gargantuas page within 24 hours. That's enough grounds for me to report you to the necessary parties to have you blocked, but I'm a lenient person, so I'm gonna let it slide. Instead, I'm gonna give you a direct, formal warning. Again, if you think the information is wrong and outdated, then you must provide a verified source (an officially published book, an article from a verified, professional site, etc) to correct the content you think is wrong. Taking your word for it is not enough. This is not the old Wikipedia from 10 years ago where anyone can add anything without repercussions.

Also, "Tokyo-based" does not mean that the dub was recorded in Tokyo, it means the company was based in Tokyo. The dub could have been recorded anywhere but the source does not specify that part. It only specifies that the company established base in Tokyo, hence "Tokyo-based", not "Tokyo-recorded". Many companies have various branches stretched across the world. It doesn't mean that the head base of operations is where all the dubbing took place.

Anyway, next time, provide a verified source if you feel the info is wrong. Otherwise, your edits will be regarded as vandalism. You have been warned! Armegon (talk) 04:01, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

I apologize for getting too "scorched Earth" about the whole thing, but I am passionate about proper information on these movies being publicly available. I can assure you that "vandalism" was not and is not my intent. I care a lot about the information on these movies being correct: I have professionally written about these films and too long has false information been spread and printed about them in English. Also I actually know the very author you are citing with this and can assure you that he made an honest mistake based on the dub not being easily available in 1998. I was simply trying to set the record straight with a tidbit I think is pretty self evident. Some of the best physical evidence for my case is in my response to the other user above, I hope it might convince you.