User talk:86.25.102.17

Welcome650 (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Welcome650 (talk) 09:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC) On the controversy section, the addition of "there have been examples of those who had undoubtedly met Ramana Maharshi corroborating Adams' Self-realization." seems out of place since the idea of one person corroborating another's self-realization is more for lineage holders and has nothing to do with the question of whether Adams actually visited Ramana Ashram. Perhaps the comment could be put in another section or its own section as there are indeed many Facebook and Youtube gurus who endorse Robert Adams.

Regarding the addition of Adams living in a cave thus explaining no one there having seen him, on page 458 of Robert Adams collected works he describes attending the main hall talks everyday for 8 months with this passage:

"I recall a Westerner, I'm trying to think of his name, Henry Wells, from Scotland. He apparently had read a lot of books about Ramana, and this was his first visit. He came into the hall, and I was watching this. Ran over to Ramana and prostrated himself on his stomach, and started going crazy. His feet were shaking, and he was chanting. The devo- tees wanted to pick him up, and Ramana said, "Let him stay." When he came out of it he told Ramana, "At last I have found you. You are my father, my mother, my son, my daugh- ter, my friend." And Ramana just smiled at him. And I said to myself, I was only eighteen years old, I said to myself, "Someone who is this enthusiastic, let's see what happens, if it lasts." The days went by and he kept prostrating himself every day for about a month. Then he finally stopped and he sat down like everybody else. And after about two months he started looking around the room at everybody, and he started complaining, that this wasn't right, that wasn't right. After about four months of being there he donated forty- thousand dollars to the ashram, and I'm just watching all these things going on. After about six months of being there, he started to find fault with the management. At that time Ramanas brother was managing the ashram. He started to whisper to the other disciples, of course the devotees had nothing to do with this, it was the disciples and the seekers. He started spreading rumors. He hardly ever talked to me. I guess I was too young. He was about forty-five years old. When about the seventh month he came over to me one day and he asked me outside the ashram, "Do you think Ramana is really enlightened?" So I just smiled at him, I didn't answer and walked away. He started getting devotees to fight against each other and rebel against the rules of the ashram. On about the eighth month he saw me again and he tells me, "Do you think it is right for Ramana to stand naked like this? Let's buy him some clothes and dress him up, so when Westerners come they won’t be frightened." So I told him what Ramana said: "Remember the reason for why you came." And this went on. A couple of days later I didn't see him in the hall. Second day passed and I didn't see him. The third day passed and I didn't see him. And the fourth day I inquired, "What happened to him?" And the house guest he was living with said, "Oh, Henry packed his suitcase and went back to Scotland," and nobody ever heard from him again." pp.458

On page 2319 Robert Adams states:

"I recall when I was with Ramana Maharshi, I used to stand at the door of the meet- ing at the old hall, when people used to come in to hear him, to see him. I was interested in the people that came in to see him. And because I was a Westerner, the Westerners would stop and talk to me. They were very funny. They change expectations, and ask me, is Ramana going to speak today? What subject is he going to speak on?"

Regarding Ramana speaking English, yes Ramana could speak english and write it also, but according to Kitty Osborne he never spoke it without a translator. If you want a link to that let me know.

Regarding the article from Ed Muzika, it was not from the well known Matthew Brown script but was from the Jan/Feb 1998 Yoga Journal article widely distributed at the time. https://books.google.bg/books?id=JOoDAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA83&dq=yoga%20journal%20the%20mysterious%20sage%20of%20sedona&pg=PA85#v=onepage&q=yoga%20journal%20the%20mysterious%20sage%20of%20sedona&f=false

On the David Godman video, I don't think that should be referenced and certainly not referenced as a supporting source since David Godman acknowledged it as false information, took it down, and promised to correct the false information in it to anyone that asks. See Michael James article:

' [Robert Adams said...] ‘I had been living in Ramana ashram for about a year and a half. This was the end of 1948. I stayed with Arthur Osborne, in his house. In those days when foreigners came they were put up with Arthur Osborne most of the time without him knowing. And on one particular evening about 4 o clock Sri Ramana walked into the cottage and he brought me a mango.’

He made a similar claim a week later, on 9th August 1992, when he said, as recorded on page 2868: ‘In 1948, I was at Arthur Osbornes home near Ramana ashram. And Ramana used to walk in there every once in a while. He came in one day, sat down and he started to talk about not reacting to things.’

To set the record straight, despite what he claimed, Robert Adams never stayed in the Osborne’s house or compound, and Bhagavan never visited there. As Katya Douglas (formerly Kitty Osborne) wrote to me today, ‘Our house in Tiruvannamalai was...and is...tiny and NO ONE could stay in it without us knowing. What a ridiculous idea. Bhagavan NEVER came to our house, that is pure fantasy, a polite way of saying it is a lie!’

I do not know why Robert made up such stories, but such patently false claims call into question all his claims about having met Bhagavan and having lived there so long in those days.

I came to know about this claim that Robert stayed in the Osborne’s house..."' Michael James unquote https://happinessofbeing.blogspot.com/2019/11/ego-seems-to-exist-only-when-we-look.html Welcome650 (talk) 09:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)--Welcome650 (talk) 09:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)10:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)Welcome650 (talk)



Ok, I have edited my comments accordingly and would think it respectful if the same is done by the author of the claims against Adams. :)

I do think that the comment in the removed David Godman video still stands. It's incorrect to say nobody has ever noted Adams' presence when this commenter said a few people do remember Adams. David Godman said the information given to him about Kitty Osborne remembering Robert Adams because she remembers her father giving Robert their car, was false - he didn't say all the comments on the video were false. This false claim is what understandably started Kitty off on exposing Robert Adams claims about Ramana, when Robert Adams appears to have never claimed that Arthur gave him a car in the first place.

Whether Robert stayed at the Osborne's is in my opinion debatable. I recall Kitty even conceded that it was possible but given the other claims Adams made, unlikely. I haven't come across anywhere Robert claims to have stayed there for a long time (Kitty seems to have the impression he claimed to have stayed for years) and it is known that visitors did stay there. Whether it is truly impossible Ramana walked into the Osborne's house occasionally I find questionable. When Robert said that people were put up at the Osborne's without Arthur knowing, I believe this was simply in the context of without Arthur having foreknowledge, as of course if someone was staying in your house you would know about it. Kitty does seem to exaggerate quite a few things, which with all due respect, doesn't make her an reliable source in my opinion. The initial false claim that she remembers her father giving Adams their car seems to have prevented her from having an objective view on the matter, when Adams seems to have never even made this claim. I do think that perhaps Robert's memory, being almost 70 with Parkinsons and having been 18 at the time of (allegedly) visiting Ramana, may have not been a perfect recollection of events and may have even been exaggerated.

The version of Robert first meeting Ramana and stripping naked was both from a movie script and the article you referenced. The only version I heard or read from Robert directly was different and much less dramatic.

I think that removing the notes I left is a bit unfair and think they are objective enough observations to be left included in the article as counter points to the claims. If you'd like to discuss anything further then please let me know. :)

Thanks for the notes. I don't have much time right now but will hopefully write more in about 12 hours. Here are a couple of quick points. On the David Godman video... did you read what he told Michael James? He said he lied about talking to Katya and the stuff about the car and other things were something he heard from someone else... even though in the video he said he heard it from Katya. He said he would take down the video and if anyone asks would tell the truth. That video was just made up stories and even if it had not been ... it is removed and is not something that can be cited as a reference for anything on wikipedia.

Regarding the Osborne house business I will use the satsang date rather than the page number for reference since the transcripts have a number of versions and I don't know which ones you might have: "I had been living in Ramana ashram for about a year and a half. This was the end of 1948. I stayed with Arthur Osborne, in his house. In those days when foreigners came they were put up with Arthur Osborne most of the time without him knowing." —August 2nd, 1992 satsang from Robert Adams

"...also there is another incident that Ramana told me personally. In 1948, I was at Arthur Osbornes home near Ramana ashram. And Ramana used to walk in there every once in a while. He came in one day, sat down and he started to talk about not reacting to things." —August 9th, 1992

As far as the Yoga Journal article... that was printed in a major journal with around 100,000 circulation at the time and was not printed as some sort of screenplay. It was printed as a factual account.

As far as leaving counterpoints.... yes, great idea... but they need a citation. Just put up citations of counterpoints. Or instead of inserting what seem like excuses without citations, maybe you could start your own section?

As far as the boulder story... the point was not that it was impossible for someone to have rolled a boulder in Ramana's direction.... the point was... there are no caves above Skandashram and anyone who has been there would know that in less than a minute. It seems inconsistent with the rest of the article to maintain that Robert Adams was never seen by anyone because he was spending his time in the caves on the hill and then he's telling a story that anyone who has been to skandashram for 2 minutes knows that nobody is rolling boulders down from 50 ft. above it... not possible. That is an imaginary story. Perhaps it is a good story to caution about the dangers of jealousy. Fine, it's still imaginary. The mud story is imaginary... the Henry Wells story is imaginary. Virtually everything Ramana said from 1928 on was carefully written down and no one else heard anything like that and it is not how Ramana behaved anyway. Maybe it has an interesting spiritual truth... great... we can celebrate that...

So how about this... if you put up your own section where you explain how it is possible that Robert Adams was at Ramanashram (or anything esle) I won't interfere with it at all. You don't even need citations... just say whatever you want. Refer to David Godman's crank video... anything, I don't care. Then you can have your section and leave mine untampered. How does that sound to you?

By the way, no one has ever come forward and "remembered" Robert Adams there. The citation from Mark Whitwell verifying Robert was there was false and needs to be removed. Mark Whitwell was born in 1949 and didn't live in India as a child.

Also, I can't even believe you questioned Kitty Osborne's credibility. Welcome650 (talk) 19:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

So to sum up... Ramana Ashram has concluded that Robert Adams made up the fantasy that he was there and met Ramana. Have you been to Ramana Ashram? If you were there you would understand why. For example, let's say someone in the West were to say, "hey I knew the pope in his early days and went to his church and saw him all the time." Well, no one could argue with him, no one keeps track of who goes to Mass. In India they have a very different attitude and especially at Ramana Ashram. For them, for someone to come and meet Ramana, it is considered the greatest day in your life. It is documented and noted. It is a very big deal. Even now, when Ramana is long dead, no one get entry even one time without signing in and being documented.

Ed Muzika, who is the person who has promoted Robert Adams all over the internet and is his big champion has admitted that Robert Adams is an incessant liar. " He lies incessantly, telling one person one thing and another something else, then denies to both that he said anything." Ed Muzkia from "Robert and I" p.27

So again, since the internet is now full of people who have never met Robert and somehow think he was authentic, my suggestion is "The Imaginative Story Teller" section is a reasonable addition. And since it is very likely to be removed or tampered with by people who are trying to deny the truth, it's best if I can just cut and paste it back up everytime someone messes with it. Therefore my strong suggestion is, we add another section in which those who never met Robert and know nothing about him, can try to put in possible loop holes that might suggest his fantasy stories could have happened. That way I can leave their apologist section up when I cut and paste the well cited "Imaginary Story Teller," section about things that were pure fantasy. The stuff there is well cited. The only possible questionable thing is the Yoga Journal article since those could be Ed Muzika's fantasies not Robert's... so let me know if you really want that part clarified as not coming from Robert. I felt it was important because it was in an official widely circulated publication.

As a side note, strangely enough, regarding the Matthew Brown screenplay... it was actually the truest depiction of the actual Robert Adams I've seen. But I wouldn't reference that in the wikipedia article.Welcome650 (talk) 05:08, 16 August 2020 (UTC)