User talk:AAA765/Archive 8

Encyclopedia of Islam vs. Paul Johnson
Hi Aminz. The Encyclopedia of Islam is certainly a reputable, authoritative source. Paul Johnson may be presenting an accurate or inaccurate view. Perhapas he should not be considered a reputable or authoritative source. However, the fact is that he is considered reputable and an authority in some circles. Although it is tempting to try to determine which source is in fact "right", my understanding of WP:NPOV policy is that in cases such as this, the article should report both conflicting views, and attribute them to their respective authors. I would be happy to make that case on the talk page if you like. However I wished to inform you of my opinion before I took any action. Please let me know. Sincerely, --BostonMA talk 03:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * you are welcome. Paul Johnson may have his own POV, and may not be an accurate source, but he has academic credentials and a wide readership.  We can discuss it some more, but not tonight (US time) as I am signing off soon.  Sincerely, --BostonMA talk  04:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You make it very difficult to AGF when all I see from you is POV pushing and wikilawyering. But I try. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and yes, Johnson is a notable historian. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * This won't be your first attempt to remove material that does not correspond to your POV. ←Humus sapiens ну? 04:56, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Apes
"Certain Jews were transformed into "apes" because they broke Sabbath."

You can't be serious. Do you really believe that?Proabivouac 07:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

There are some types of stories which I've heard a lot but I don't know if my Sunni brothers share or not. The theme is that one's "other-worldly" eye was opened and he saw Muslims doing pilgrimage as monkeys, apes, ... It might have come from the Qur'ans description of those who eat what belongs to orphans actually eat fire. Anyways, I was just explaining that the Qur'an says. Some Jews in the past who were persistently sinning and breaking Sabbath were transformed into apes probably spiritually. My mother used to tell me that if you tell lie, in the resurrection day, you'll be resurrected with a big tongue on which all people will step on. --Aminz 07:26, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Spiritually turning into an ape. Gotta watch out for that. Arrow740 07:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * lol!--Aminz 07:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, it is pretty funny. Arrow740 12:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser
Looks like our numbers are growing. Arrow740 12:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * yes, the number of socks from users such as User:RunedChozo and User:DAde are indeed growing. Aminz, that IP is one of the socks of DAde who uses them to get around bans. perhaps you could bring that up at your RFCU if you want as it seems he is starting to exhaust the community's patience.  ITAQALLAH   13:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Just asking
Salaam! I was just passing by your talk page. What do you think of the comments about pre-Badr events! You told me that you had problems with that! Can I know any logical fallacy in that?  TruthSpreader Talk 14:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And thanks for retrieving the quote on Muhammad article. Cheers!  TruthSpreader Talk 15:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thats fine! I am glad that you are still surviving Wikipedia's rough and cruel environment. I myself is running short of time in completion of a document. I think we better leave this for while, until you'll be free to pursue, as others have very little information about the content. Cheers!  TruthSpreader Talk 04:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Well! Tafsir literature, to the best of my knowledge, refer this whole chapter of Qur'an to the event of Badr. The most of important verse is the next one:
 * 008.007 YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers;-


 * This verse says that some wanted to attack the caravan (the unarmed one), but the last part of the verse says very clearly that God instead chose a target that would cut off the roots of the Unbelievers, and that essentially was the Meccan army. Hence, according to this understanding, the Meccan army was already mobilized to destroy Muslims.  TruthSpreader Talk 04:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Done! In "The sealed Nectar", the initial raids were more of securing a piece of land than looting caravans. It is the final raid of 300 people that is being disputed. Now, Muslims have accepted these traditions and this is why they justify these allegations. But as a Muslim, I simply can't accept looting a defenceless caravan, as it is not only against morality but also Qur'an should allude to such an event. And how easy for Muslims to say that Muslims attacked the defenceless caravan and Abu Sufyan rescued his caravan. I think if the caravan was attacked, it wouldn't go unharmed and secondly, the looting of caravans would become part of the religion which actually never has become.  TruthSpreader Talk 04:52, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think, World will never run short of idiots. I am leaving for tea. Cheers! :)  TruthSpreader Talk 05:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Opiner/Mediation
Well I note that Opiner hasn't actually been on Wikipedia for the last four days. Perhaps now when he sees that other users who agree with him such as User:Arrow740 have signed up he'll be willing to participate.

My understanding of mediation is that for it to go ahead, all parties need to agree upon it. This is unfortunate, but hopefully Opiner will come round.

As for the article more generally... I understand there is this dispute over the source and there appear to be two versions of the page that had been reverted between but could you just give me a brief summary of the conflict as a whole? What (if anything) do you think should be done to the article to remove the non-netural tag? Alternatively, what do you feel others are misunderstanding in order for them to have put the tag there? Cheers --Robdurbar 19:08, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't see why a reform need necessairily be poistive. The article should state:
 * What Muhammad and His followers saw as wrong with the previous social systems (an expanded version would say why things were wrong, and why Muhammad was in a position to change them)
 * What He and His followers proposed to do about the system (an expanded version would compare this witht the position of their contemporaries)
 * What actually happned: how many of the planned reforms went through (all of them, some, none?)
 * Their effects both positive and negative.


 * As for the semantics of that quote - it is fair to point out that the article contains more quotes and more attributed statements than most other aritcles on Wikipedia. I would leave it as 'Muhammad preached against what he saw as the social evils of his day', followed by a reference. --Robdurbar 12:35, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved from WP:ANI
I have been involved in the antisemitism article for awhile and have tried my best not to engage in any revert war (i have repented from that :)) but at the same time I can not really continue working on that anymore because of persistent violations of wiki policies.

1. Violations of WP:RS and WP:NPOV

These users consider Paul Johnson (journalist), a conservative journalist who has only a lower-second class degree in Jesuit method (which is not even Islamic studies or Jewish studies), to be more reliable than Bernard Lewis & Claude Cahen for the following reasons:
 * Johnson's publications are have likely outsold those of Lewis by a wide margin
 * Encyclopedia of Islam, Brill academic publisher, the source in which Claude Cahen has published his article is a POV teritary source.

In fact, the quotes from the quotes from Claude Cahen are removed and quotes from Johnson are replaced.

Here are the diffs: Please see and

And this is one of the edits in dispute.

In fact, the book written by Johnson, the conservative journalist, is not peer reviewed either. It is published by "New York: HarperCollins Publishers", not a univ press or other ones which particularly publish scholarly books. I have introduced many sources to them including Bernard Lewis, Claude Cahen, Norman Stillman, etc etc but they insist in using the conservative journalist. I had explained all these before the above diffs were made.

2. Violations of WP:Assume Good Faith and WP:Civility

It is a violation of WP:Assume good faith to persistently and flatly accuse others of misrepresentation of sources when they haven't even read them. They need to first make sure that they have not misunderstood the case before making any accusations. Here I am going to mention the sentences I've written together with the sources and their accusations:

Here is user: Jayjg's accusation: and here is User: Beit Or's accusation: . Accusations of user:Humus_spiens could be frequently found in different talk pages.

The sentence in dispute is:

"There was not such a thing that would be called Antisemitism in Muslim lands before the establishment of the state of Israel (However S. D. Goitein argues that anti-semitism was not entirely absent as it is assumed and aims to prove its existences through Geniza letters. ) However many scholars believe that antisemtism arosed in Muslim lands after establishment of the state of Israel though this is disputed. (see new antisemitism). "

User:Jayjg didn't notice that many sources was given for the sentence and simply because one particular source didn't say what was written addressed such an accusation towards me. I provide two quotations from Lewis and Stillman, word by word, which show will refute all these accusations:

Bernard Lewis says: "Prejudices existed in the Islamic world, as did occasional hostility, but not what could be called anti-Semitism...".

Norman Stillman says:


 * Increased European commercial, missionary and imperialist activities within the Muslim world during the 19th and 20th centuries introduced anti-Semitic ideas and literature into the region. At first these prejudices only found a reception among Arabic-speaking Christian protégés of the Europeans in Syria, Lebanon and Egypt and were too new and too palpably foreign for any widespread acceptance among Muslims. However, with the ever-increasing conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine during the period of the British Mandate, the language and imagery of European anti-Semitism began to appear in political polemics both in the nationalist press and in books (Stillman, New attitudes toward the Jew in the Arab world, in Jewish Social Studies, xxxvii [1975], 197-204; idem, Antisemitism in the contemporary Arab world, in Antisemitism in the contemporary world, ed. M. Curtis, Boulder and London 1986, 70-85). For more than two decades following 1948, this trend increased greatly, but peaked by the 1970s, and declined somewhat as the slow process of rapprochement between the Arab world and the state of Israel evolved in the 1980s and 1990s; it remains to be seen how the tensions arising in 2000 will affect the trend.

3. Double Standards

User:Humus spiens, used the scholar S. D. Goitein (a famous scholar of Jewish studies) when it was quoted by the journalist but removed it when I added it. In fact, even the journalist refers to Goitein as a "great scholar". I was expecting and requested User:Humus spiens to add back the scholarly quotes but instead he added another quote from the journalist.

--

I didn't want to bring this issue here but have found it vert hard, if not impossible, to work on this article, to see these and at the same time not to edit-war; to see editors go around and accuse me of misrepresenting sources while they haven't even read the sources. When I have already asked Humus spiens to let this dispute be resolved in the talk page rather than ANI but he told me that I am threatening him. All I am asking is the un-peer-reviewed sources written by journalists be replaced with Lewis, Cahen, Goitein, et al and that the unestablished accusations be stoped especially noting that some of these editors are admins.

Thanks --Aminz 20:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * From the top of the page: This is not the Wikipedia complaints department. If you came here to complain about the actions of a user or administrator, or if your problem is a content issue and does not need the attention of people with administrator access, then please follow the steps in dispute resolution. These include: mediation, requests for comment, and as a last resort requests for arbitration. What admin action are you requesting here? --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 20:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * ecThis doesn't appear to be an administrator issue. You're looking for an article Requests for comment. Jkelly 20:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It is the violations of WP:Assume good faith, obvious WP:NPOV and WP:RS; not a content dispute. --Aminz 20:58, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, if it's WP:AGF, then you're complaining about the actions of a user or adminstrator (see above); if it's WP:NPOV or WP:RS, it's a content dispute; you are, after all, disagreeing about the contents of an article. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 21:02, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Aminz, I'm sorry but WP:ANI isn't the place for this... but WP:RFC is. I believe you have valid points but they won't be addressed on ANI. (→ Netscott ) 21:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes but article RfCs are somewhat more informal. Have a look at the RfC instructions. (→ Netscott ) 22:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Aminz, I would highly recommend that you change the title of the remaining pointer section on ANI. The "ardent love" aspect is definitely contravening WP:CIV and such language is going to only make matters worse. (→ Netscott ) 22:12, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that it is possible. Filing user RfCs is not something done flippantly. You would do well to formulate your user conduct RfC in your user space and seek support in developing it prior to actually filing it. (→ Netscott ) 22:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)


 * How about taking the case to WP:MEDCAB?  TruthSpreader Talk 03:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I am just worried that the majority of the community may not have seen what absurdities could be published in un-peer-reviewed books published by un-academic presses. Not all of them might have compared a real academic work by a fake one. --Aminz 04:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Parviz Tanavoli
I was wikifying this article, but you may know more about this (Persian? Iranian?) artist than I do. If you had a minute to look at it you would be able to see if I have made any gross errors due to my unfamiliarity with the relevant part of the world. I will sort out the links to the art galleries when I have a moment. He sounds like a very interesting artist anyway. Itsmejudith 23:36, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Request for Mediation
This message delivered: 04:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC).

Ive been gone. Now Im back and Ill join but Im pretty busy so cant always respond to things right away.Opiner 21:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Parviz Tanavoli
Thanks Aminz. Doesn't matter. Just one of a million and a half articles. I am going to stop caring so much about each and every article in this encyclopedia. Hope you're well. Itsmejudith 13:12, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding editing Semitism and Zionism topics
Hello Aminz, you might have a look at WikiProject Countering systemic bias and see if anything there applies to the difficulties you've been experiencing. Hope that helps. (→ Netscott ) 22:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What's up
Just checking in to see how you're doing. Wikipedia is an interesting place... people come and go from articles, there's a mostly new crop of people working on Criticism of Islam/etc. I see lots of good changes and some bad. I think the key to keeping one's sanity on this website is not to get too heavily invested in one area or article. Myself, I think I'll be more active than I've been last few months, but never on the level I was in the summer. - Merzbow 09:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm doing fine, mostly involved with other hobbies now, but perhaps I'll give a few hours a week to Wikipedia. The whole H.E. thing was a tough ordeal for everyone involved. I got too involved with specific articles and too concerned with specific people for my own good. This hobby is definitely more fun if taken slowly. It's good you and Itsmejudith are still editing.- Merzbow 04:59, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

New antisemitism
Aminz, I'm inclined to agree with Moshe on the tag. Please try to just use a standard tag. Thanks. (→ Netscott ) 06:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Aminz, please stop constantly reverting on this article. It sucks to see you get blocked and unfortunately I fear that you are currently heading down the path towards another one. (→ Netscott ) 07:13, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * 3RR is not an entitlement Aminz. If you keep reverting chronically against consensus you'll likely be blocked regardless of whether or not you've made four reverts in 24 hours time. (→ Netscott ) 07:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Good luck with that. I doubt very much that Jayjg agrees with your edits. (→ Netscott ) 07:24, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I doubt it because if I were in Jayjg's position I would be annoyed by your insistence in adding unsourced material and expecing me to source it... that is wrong and basically a POINT violation. (→ Netscott ) 07:31, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a wise decision (at this point anyways). Take it easy Aminz. (→ Netscott ) 07:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Regarding reversions made on December 2 2006 to New antisemitism
You have been temporarily blocked for violation of the three-revert rule. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. The duration of the block is 24 hours. William M. Connolley 09:55, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry. I didn't notice I've passed 3rr. --Aminz 20:24, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It was an easy mistake Aminz, you were using two different tags. The one you made and the standard one. I'm sure if you had been using only one you would have been a bit more aware I'm sure. (→ Netscott ) 20:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

3RR
Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. --Ideogram 04:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The Arbcom voting page is not a place for posting irrelevant comments. --Aminz 04:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Gee, that's the same comment you made on my user page... Takes one to know one? But in truth I have no idea what you're talking about. I only reversed someone one time because he arbitrarily reversed my good edit. So what are you talking about? --User_talk:Narcissus14

Ibn Warraq
What do you think about him. I actually read two reviews on his book, @article{berg1999iwe, title={Ibn Warraq (ed.): The origins of the Koran: classic essays on Islam's holy book}, author={Berg, H.}, journal={BULLETIN-SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES UNIVERSITY OF LONDON}, volume={62}, pages={557--558}, year={1999}, publisher={OXFORD UNIVERSITY PRESS} } and @article{lawson2002iwe, title={IBN WARRAQ, ed.: The Origins of the Koran: Classic Essays on Islam's Holy Book}, author={Lawson, T.}, journal={JOURNAL-AMERICAN ORIENTAL SOCIETY}, volume={122}, number={3}, pages={658--658}, year={2002}, publisher={UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN} }

One says that his writings are polemic and inconsistent. Other says at the end that "it is hard to recommend his writings but maybe useful for someone who wants to read for antiquity". I would like to have your opinion.  TruthSpreader Talk 08:03, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Your RFM
I have volunteered to mediate your case. I am not a member of the Mediation Committee, but have some experience conducting mediations. I'll only do so, of course, if all the parties consent. Please indicate on the mediation page whether you agree or not. Cheers, JCO312 00:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Your RfC
Aminz, you should know that I am currently away from my home traveling. As a result I'll not be on the Wiki for the next month or two as much as I usually am. I'll try to see how I can be of assistance but just know what my situation is currently. See you. 19:45, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of the Qur'an
You took out the following without any comment. Please explain why you took it out:
 * To prove its divine origin, Qur'anic verses like challenge the reader to produce a surah like one in the Qur'an. Some critics of Islam have claimed to have met the challenge by producing surahs of their own.

thanks. --Matt57 22:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember that. It must have been unintentional. The diff please. --Aminz 22:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Here it is, the last group of text. I dont see you were reverting something. It seemed to be an actual edit.--Matt57 23:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In any case I put it back now. I was surprised actually that no one talked about the Surah like it challenge in the Qur'an or Criticism of the Qur'an page.--Matt57 23:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Template:Islam== ==

Due to a recent AfD, one of the links in the template is now a redlink. Please don't revert turning a redlink into a normal word. --Firi e n § 11:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Regarding your edit, it was nice to see you.  TruthSpreader Talk 17:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * yup.  TruthSpreader reply 11:18, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

comments
Thank you for the comments. Would you like to have a look at:. And tell me what do you think? Cheers!  TruthSpreader reply 16:15, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for comments! This discussion might be useful from historical point of view, but Quranic verses are very clear in their meaning, unless it is believed that Qur'an has changed or Qur'an has serious grammatical problems.  TruthSpreader reply 12:08, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

RfC
I restored a copy for you at User:Aminz/rfc. Tom Harrison Talk 00:33, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

MCaaHNY
Dear Aminz, thanks for your kind words on my talk page. I am wishing you a Merry Christmas as well. I am sorry that we have to disagree so much on so many issues, but I hope you will believe my honest good faith and my not being islamophobic. I do wholeheartedly forgive you your offences, as my Lord taught me, and hope you will also forgive mine. And a happy new (AD/CE) year. Str1977 (smile back) 17:35, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Historical Persecution by Jews

 * I would like to thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. However, it is recommended that you use the preview button before you save; this helps you find any errors you have made, and prevents clogging up recent changes and the page history. Thanks again.  As well, Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. As a member of the Wikipedia community, I would like to remind you of Wikipedia's neutral-point-of-view policy for editors. In the meantime, please be bold and continue contributing to Wikipedia. Thank you!   -- Chabuk [ T • C ] 05:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: A nice article
Thanks for that, I'll check it out when I have the time. :-) Cheers, Khoikhoi 05:08, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Very interesting! But after watching heaps of televangelist programs, I felt myself that Gospel is normally taught without considering its context. Thanks for the article.  TruthSpreader reply 05:37, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Caesar Farah believes that prophet was still following the Medina pact, as Jews had to be dealt with their laws. But if something Jews haven't practiced, doesn't make that command redundant. Rather, if they would get another chance, only God knows that they might use it again. Cheers!  TruthSpreader reply 10:24, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I would say the same thing that if prophet Muhammad would conquer the lands, this would be much peaceful and much better than people who conquered after Sahaba. And as Israelites always had a prophet to guide them, hence their struggle should be peaceful, otherwise I'd be surprised. But in any case, there are incidences when there is no option left but to use force and sometimes when enemies of God challenge God himself infront of His messenger, those are badly punished. I believe that these all incidences actually point to this very fact, e.g. killing of worshippers of Golden calf etc.  TruthSpreader reply 10:52, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * lolz. Interesting!  TruthSpreader reply 11:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Feminist exegesis is interesting concept. But I think I differ on this thing altogether. These scriptures are word of God. We should try to know what God wants to convey rather than putting our own words in the mouth of the scriptures.  TruthSpreader reply 00:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * If I will come to know that Huris are angles, I might mend my lifestyle drastically! Huris are definitely humans, as Qur'an explains their features well, unlike angles which are made from light (Noor) or energy.  TruthSpreader reply 01:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The hard proof is Qur'an itself. Angels are made from light, Jinns are made from fire, and human is created from mud (or matter). Former one's can take other forms because they can interact with our psychology, but they don't become humans. For example, when two angles came to Abraham in human form and Abraham (as) gave them food, they didn't eat it and Abraham knew that these two men are not humans. So they can look like humans, but their desires and needs are still like angles. But Qur'an tells us about Huris that they will look like humans and also feel like humans. If I can remember properly, in Surah Rahman, skin of huris will be like membrane of an egg. And we will only be enjoying their company if they act like humans, what is the purpose of having sexual companionship when the other doesn't feel like humans as angles don't even have sexes, at least according to what I know!  TruthSpreader reply 02:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I do believe that bible has translated hence, there can be small mistakes in it, but the text you sent me says: "as the angels of God in heaven". Hence, they will be like angels not angels themselves i.e. they will not do sin just like Qur'an says that every one will say "peace" to each other in paradise. Cheers!  TruthSpreader reply 03:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * .  TruthSpreader reply 13:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
 * no worries! But I was just thinking that this can also be reported from hadith literature, which is pretty large, and not necessarily, Ibn Ishaq.  TruthSpreader reply 13:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Tag abuse
The article was extensively re-written, the tags are for current issues, and the reasons for adding them must be both credible and listed specifically on the Talk: page. You had not added any new comments in days, certainly not since the extensive re-write, and for weeks now you have been disruptively tagging articles which are factually correct and NPOV, but whose contents you simply dislike. You didn't even give a reason in the edit summary. I don't know what the content of that article is, nor do I need to; I can tell a pattern of tag abuse when I see it. My actions were administrative, not editorial. Jayjg (talk) 00:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said before, there is much discussion on the talk page (e.g. ). Do you expect an edit warring for the tag to remain? For the editors involved the disputes are clear. The Proabivouac's removal of the tag was nothing more than his support of the current version of the article. --Aminz 00:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Religion reforms
Muhammad banning non monotheism like Mecca religion are you saying thats not true? Qur'an says monotheism followers have to pay tribute and be subdued isnt Qur'an from the time of Muhammad? Or maybe Qur'an is from Umar?

Lets ask another way are you saying non monotheism ISNT banned by Islam? Then why theyre destroying all the beautiful Mecca god statues in the Kaaba? Qur'an makes a much bigger deal about polytheism than about any of the other things youre talking about. People still debating many of these things but NO ONE debating polythesism is banned completely. Since Arabia is mostly polytheism at that time this is the biggest reform.Opiner 08:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont know if taxation under early Islam was much less than that under Byzantium and Persian Empire its not sounding right. Why attack people to make them pay less when usually just say were charging less? but its not the tribute to the Muslims just the tax. How much tax you pay now? OK divide that by two and pay it as the tribute owed by the Muslim to the Jews. What are you getting more upset about?

Sabians also monotheism? I think. Zoroastrian monotheist as much as Christians. Muhammad didnt know Hindus and this is about the Muhamma reforms not what someones doing later thats another reform BUT judging from Mecca polytheists hes not going to smash all their beautiful statue take their temple for Islam and make them convert? What are you thinking ,maybe Muhammad is okay with most polytheism except the Meccans for some reason?Opiner 08:56, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring
I blocked you for 24 hours for edit warring. --CSTAR 15:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The activity on the page in question, suggests edit warring, against what appears to be consensus involving long time WP contributors. However, I have not weighed the merits of this particular dispute here. Indeed, if you believe in the merit of your case, then propose an RfC.
 * I warned you before on edit warring and I didn't block you then based on a technicality. However, the point of the 3RR rule is to discourage edit warring on some principled basis, and I certainly take a dim view of repeated brinksmanship or 3RR gaming.
 * Note this doesn't mean the article will forever stay in its current state. Rather than engage in editing, spend your time making a case for your position.
 * However, I see no reason to lift this block. --CSTAR 23:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

CSTAR, for God's sake, I did file an RfC but the dispute was not resolved. My problem is that the editors on the other side deny existence of any dispute and removed the POV tag. I was putting on the disputed tag in most of the edits which appear edit-warring.please see. Even then I wasn't persistently there (please have a look at the times of my edits) Also, regarding the previous case, the first edit was not a revert. I swear it was not. It was an edit based on agreement. And what I did in general is a typical behavior of many respected editors on controversial articles. --Aminz 23:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

CSTAR, honestly, I have never seen any editor working on controversial articles who hasn't ever *reverted* for one, two or three times in a day. The controversial articles are more prone to disagreements and that's not because the editors are bad. If one follows all my edits, he/she can see that I always use reliable sources and source whatever I add but even then yes, disagreements happen. --Aminz 23:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Israel
I agree with this. Formation of Israel is definitely not against Qur'anic injunctions. As I agree with Ibn Hisham and Ghamidi (as per ) that Isra and Mi'raj was a dream, hence the holiness of Jerusalem is only because of Hebrew prophets and there is no more reason to it. I think the rest is because of political reasons and ignorance. But in contrary to what Prof. Muhammad wrote, I think Qur'an is silent that whom should rule Jerusalem after Sahaba (Qur'an only says that Jerusalem will be handed over to Muslims as it was given to Israelites in history, as per contextual interpretation of verse, which eventually happened in the era of Umar (ra)) All references in Qur'an regarding Jews and promissed land are for particular period of time, hence I look this matter from completely secular point of view.  TruthSpreader reply 03:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a very common mistake. The whole verse should be understood in the context. Out of the context, every verse has unlimited meanings. The context tells us that Moses told Israelites that they should strive (essentially militarily), and God has destined for this this land. Mentioning of "written" should be considered in this context that God ensured them victory but still they didn't proceed. IMHO, the context of the verse shows the promise to only the direct addressees of Moses, and not for all generations of Jews. I wouldn't make a final statement as this only my opinion. I learned to reason this way after reading some portion of Tadabbur-i-Qur'an, but my reasoning and even reasoning of Islahi are definitely not infallible.  TruthSpreader reply 03:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Islam
What was the deal with removing my reversion? All the information in the Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam is exactly how those two paragraphs appeared as they originally did. Please see the discussion page if you are still confused with what I mean. Thanks --Canadia 05:23, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have seen the talk page and made a comment there. Article is on criticism of Islam, that means that the article is centered on that, not that responses or something else couldn't be inserted. --Aminz 05:29, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * So by creating a link/page that expresses the criticisms of the methodologies that critisize Islam that is, by the way, still attached to the page, how does that expurgate the responses to those who critisize Islam? --Canadia 05:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * First off, the proposition that the critics of Islam are not reliable sources is just risible. Even if you referred to the "Criticisms of Islam" page as being unreliable, I still would not be able to believe that argument as the page itself (without the Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam section) has over 75 citations. Secondly, if you meant by creating a section where critics respond to the methodologies espoused by those who critisize Islam, I have done exactly just that by creating a page called Criticisms of the criticisms of Islam. --Canadia 05:41, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Notwithstanding our little "argument", best wishes matey. --Canadia 05:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Antisemitism
Aminz, when you solicit a large number of select editors to comment on a page, resulting in a flood of like-minded individuals supporting your proposal, it angers other editors, who feel the process is being unfairly manipulated,  and poisons the transpiring discussion. It also tends to reflect poorly on its respondents, who begin to look like interchangable POV warriors rather than respectable editors, even when they are the latter.Proabivouac 07:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The Request For Comment was on existence of a dispute. To me, every reasonable person should support it (that's what I personally think, no offense taken). I didn't ask people to say that I am right but only that there is a dispute. Personally, I find it unacceptable that the fact that there is some dispute angers some editors. I am sorry but there are many more serious things in this world one can be angered at. --Aminz 07:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not angered by the fact that there is a dispute, to which I will attest shortly, per Tom harrison. It is obvious to me that your material should be represented, and that your early version, leading the section as it did by stating that anti-Semitism did not exist, was tendentious, perhaps contributing to the response you received from its regular editors.Proabivouac 07:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion for the lead has changed over time as I have learned more about it. At the beginning I had only seen Cahen and Lewis who say explicitly and unambigiously that there was no antisemitism. So I said there is none. But then I found others saying there was a little bit. So, I added that as well. The last version which I prepared and was ruthlessly removed is this. Please let me know why it is not proper for the lead. --Aminz 07:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I would agree that the existing version is unduly dismissive of this view; however it is absurd to open this section with the assertion that all that follows does not actually exist. That would be considered tententious even in articles such as Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster, where scholarly consensus is overwhelmingly that they do not exist, and in these cases existence isn't dependent on definition. Jews didn't - and still don't - have the same rights as Muslims, and this is enough to merit a discussion on anti-Semitism even where we are aware that the terminology might be debated. English does not have a well-established term which captures all the nuances of Islamic "anti-Semitism," but that something like this exists, today and in history, cannot seriously be questioned.Proabivouac 08:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The section actually starts with "while prejudice and sometimes hostility existed in the Islamic world". And of course the most authorative POV should go first. When Shelomo Dov Goitein wants to contradict Cahen, he writes: Antisemitism was not absent as it is assumed (+footnote). In the footnote, writes even by such an eminent authority as Cahen" (please see footnote 13 (and 2) here ). Phrases like "as it is assumed", "by such an eminent authority as Cahen" can justify that the lack of antisemitism is among the most authorative POVs (and probably the most authorative POV at the time Shelomo Dov Goitein wrote his book). --Aminz 08:15, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Proabivouac, the reason that we don't have the word is simply because there is none. Jews, when were ill-treated, were ill-treated because they were non-Muslims (not because they were Jews).--Aminz 08:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Being Jewish means, among other things, that they are not Muslims, while if they were Muslims, they wouldn't be Jews, would they? Use common sense.Proabivouac 11:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

If being Jewish means adhereing to Judaism, then being Jewish and Muslim are not reconcilable (because Jews reject Jesus). Being both (non-mainstream) Christian and Muslim is though possible. But I can not get its relevance here. There has been hardly any difference between Jews and Christians in terms of Dhimmi laws etc etc. When they were discriminated and persecuted, they were both discriminated and persecuted, and when they were relaxed, both were relaxed. --Aminz 11:26, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


 * One can be antisemitic and anti-Christian at the same time. Persecuting other groups, like Christians, does not absolve one from the charge of antisemitism. Beit Or 11:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Karbala
Salam. I've worked on this article and I have some problem with Zora. She doesn't trust in my edits. She recognized the most reliable narration of Karabla which has written by AbiMekhnaf as Shi'a POV and when I told her OK look at Tabari and we can write whatever in both of these books she said I don't have that volume of Tabari. I remember she trust in you. Please look at this information "Kitab Maqtal al-Husayn by Abu Mikhnaf (died in 157 AH, 774 AD). He was the first historian to systematically collect the reports dealing with the events of the Karbala. His works was reliable among later historians -Shi'a and Sunni- like Tabari. He has based his work on the eyewitness testimony of Dolham, Oqbeh, and Homayd bin Muslim." and the talk page of battle of Karbala and speak with her or tell me what should I do with her.--Sa.vakilian 18:12, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Your edits to Battle of Karbala
Aminz, I'm very distressed by your edits to the academic section. Your writing is not clear, your references are incomplete, and you're paraphrasing rather than quoting. Furthermore, you seem to be citing scholars who are talking about what the battle means to the Shi'a, rather than what actually happened. Hugh Kennedy is a military historian. He specializes in Islamic military history. He makes a clear distinction between an account of what happened at the battle (without speculating as to Husayn's intentions)                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 and the effect on the Muslims of the time. Please, let's keep the outline of the what happened distinct from speculation as to intentions, significance, etc. Zora 11:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Halm's work
Wellhausen was giving his emotional reaction to the events -- that's not the same thing as a considered academic judgement on what happened. Furthermore, Wellhausen died in 1918! He's hardly representative of current scholarship.

Halm is taking a very Shi'a POV -- as one might expect from someone who had spent many years studying the Shi'a. He titles his section "The Martyrdom of Husayn" -- which is hardly academic even-handedness. He seems to have taken the standard Shi'a account of events at face value, down to the pathetic stories about the desecration of Husayn's body. I'm not sure that he's that well-regarded in academia, as I haven't found him in any of the bibliographies of books that are "state of the art". Nor any of the graduate school bibliographies re Islam that I've copied off the net.

Esposito is also well-known for taking a sympathetic view of Islam. He's an essayist, primarily. I don't think he's known for work in primary sources.

Kennedy specializes in military history; he knows how the armies were organized and just what was at hand to throw against Husayn.

Now Kennedy also talks about the effect of the battle on Muslim opinion at the time. I can suggest a compromise, which is we have a section on "contemporary reactions to the battle", where we can quote Kennedy to the effect that "al-Husayn became the symbol for the sufferings of all the weak and defenceless". Other academics as well. I don't mind quoting academics when they're talking about what the battle meant at the time. I think the Shi'a interpretation of it, more than 1000 years later, is already well-covered. Zora 11:53, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * PS. Of course you can cite passages, whether you have the book or read it on Google. Fair use quotation is legal and OK on WP. Zora 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

E of Islam treatment of Hassan
Madelung thinks that Hasan was treated very badly by the EofI 2 and devotes a whole section of his book to refuting the article. I find his arguments persuasive. However, I don't think that Halm's acceptance of the EofI article makes him "unsympathetic" to the Shi'a. I think he's just following other people's narratives here, whether they're EoI or Shi'a. This period is not his specialty. I've been digging for info about him, and he seems to have focussed on the Ismailis and especially the Fatimids.

I've noticed this in other general histories of Islam. When authors are discussing the period that they have studied, in detail, from primary sources, they're very good, very sharp. For other periods, they're summarizing other people's work. Frex, the Hugh Kennedy book that I like re Umayyad and Abbasid military history is a general history of Islam up to the later Abbasids. The section on early Islam is not Hugh Kennedy's specialty, and he's not very illuminating there.

So I would assume that Halm's book on the Shi'a is going to be the most reliable when he's discussing the Fatimids. Zora 12:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Shi'a POV versus the academic POV
SV has added some material re Shi'a who want to remove some of the invented, dramatic trappings from the story of the battle. However, I see no reason to believe that their "stripped down" version is stripped down enough for academic consumption. The "modern" Shi'a POV still seems to start with the assumption that Husayn deserved the caliphate, that he was unjustly treated, that he was a perfect human being, that he knew he would die but accepted it as necessary for Islam, etc. Academics have to toss all that out. They should try to be completely neutral. Which is why Halm's use of the term "martyrdom" is disturbing. That's accepting the Shi'a interpretation of what happened.

So far, I haven't seen anything from the Shi'a POV re history that meets Western academic standards. The text that SV wants me to accept as authentic is just not up to snuff, in the form presented. This business about "reconstruction" is just too fuzzy. At least when Guillaume reconstructs Ibn Ishaq, he marks the passages from al-Tabari and Ibn Hisham so that you know exactly where he got each passage. It's possible to check his work. The Abi Mekhnaf is "reconstructed" but from what? by whom? The introduction makes a big deal about how Abi Mekhnaf is so early, so reliable -- but why would I trust that? Why would I believe that? It could be "reconstructed" from documents written 300 years later, in which case the reconstruction is highly suspect. Zora 12:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I did my best and find academic research about Abi Mekhnaf and the fact that Tabari has admitted it as reliable source but she doesn't want to accept. Now it's not important for me what she thinks. She insists on her position without any reference which supports her. What should we do now.


 * It's funny that Shi'a accepts Abi Mekhnaf because Tabari narrates his report:"Abu Mikhnaf was the earliest historian who took testimonies from eye witnesses and compiled his maqtal. There is in existence today an book in Arabic called Maqtal Abi Mikhnaf. It is doubtful whether this is the original text. However we do have the excerpts quoted by Tabari and other historians."


 * These are the list of books which are available in Amazon with references to Abu Mikhnaf.

--Sa.vakilian 04:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


 * من به این نتیجه رسیدم که این دو تا منبع یعنی طبری و ابی مخنف عملا یکی هستند و تفاوت هایشان ناشی از ترجمه است هر دو معتبر و آکادمیک هستند و توضیحات لازم را هم دادم و دیگر برایم مهم نیست زرا چی فکر می کنه. من بر اساس همین متون ماجرا را به عنوان فکت و نه دیدگاه شیعه می نویسم.--Sa.vakilian 06:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

شما می تونی من را سید صدا کنی. روان تر و خودمانی تره.--Sa.vakilian 09:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

What's your idea
Salam.

Do you agree to invite User:Itaqallah to write Sunni POV. He's very knowledgeable.--Sa.vakilian 15:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your support
Thank you for your support in the RfA on my behalf. It is an honor to have received your expression of confidence. To be chosen as an administrator requires a high level of confidence by a broad section of the community. Although I received a great deal of support, at this time I do not hold the level of confidence required, and the RfA did not pass. It is my wish that I will continue to deserve your confidence. Sincerely, --BostonMA talk 20:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Please look at Battle of Karbala
Salam. I should confess that chalenging with Zora make this part more academic and I hope she accepts it now, but I can't bear her anymore if she doesn't accept it. Then I revert whatever she add or delete. So I propose you become a mediator between us and we'll add our ideas in the talk page then you'll add it in the article after discussing.--Sa.vakilian 07:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've receive a boiling point. How do I deal with her?--Sa.vakilian 04:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Prophet Mohammad.jpg
Thank you for uploading Image:Prophet Mohammad.jpg. However, it currently is missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. It may be deleted soon, unless we can determine the license and the source of the image. If you know this information, then you can add a copyright tag to the image description page.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks again for your cooperation. MECU ≈ talk 02:16, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

WP:3RR
No, I haven't. Two of the edits you must be counting are qualified restorations of your material, not reverts. Aminz, sourced material does not equal neutral use of said material.Proabivouac 08:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no doubt that you are acting in good faith, insofar as you are editting according to your real beliefs. This is exactly the problem: Wikipedia isn't a platform for these beliefs, however benevolent they might be. You believe that Muhammad was the prophet of God, which is fine, and I'd guess that you believe that determination to be one at which any informed and fair-minded person would arrive. That does not make your edits any less tendentious.Proabivouac 08:40, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Eide Mobarak
Salam. Man eid qadir ra be shoma tabrik miguyam va omidvaram be Ali shabih tar shavim hatta be andaze yek gam.--Sa.vakilian 10:04, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Also please explain why you removed "Secondary source". Tha History of Tabari, Baladhyri, Ibn Kathir and the other later historians aren't primary sources.--Sa.vakilian 10:07, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

No personal attack please
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. -- Karl Meier 11:31, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Re Sincerety of Muhammad
I'll be watching that. Thanks Aminz. --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  13:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Fayssal. The argument that some editors bring is that it is not neutral to say that Muhammad was sincere. I think neutrality (WP:NPOV) means presenting the POV of all scholars rather than arguing that the content of what the scholars actually say should be neutral. --Aminz 13:13, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The solution to that is to bring both POV's together. --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  13:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean the POV of non-Muslim non-academic scholars ? --Aminz 13:15, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean that. If they are as much notable as the ones you brought than of course we should mention them. WP:RS. --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  13:19, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, But we can not mention views of non-experts, can we? I personally think that the real view of the majority is that the Qur'an is the product of Muhammad's unconscious (from their writing style). But I have no source for that. --Aminz 13:23, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Everything is well explained at WP:RS. --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  13:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear that the concept of an "unconscious" is nowadays broadly accepted as useful. It is futile, for example, to ask to what degree a poet, painter, musician, etc. is creating material from their "unconscious," just as it is useless to try to identify "prophets" on the basis of this indefeasable attribution.Proabivouac 20:57, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Aminz, this material is already in the article: "Other historians, such as Watt, Reeves and Schimmel, accept Muhammad's revelations as sincere., ." The trouble is that you wish to turn these into a dedicated section, with a decidedly POV title, including each quote redundantly given in full.

Ask yourself: if half the readers walk away from this article believing that Muhammad was the prophet of God, and half walk away believing him to have been an imposter, would you feel the need to correct this second group? Neutrality means allowing people to arrive at their own conclusions, without being confronted with a long list of generic testimonials. These add nothing factual to the article, and are only topical because Muir's allegation broached the subject. Even so, I'm not clear from your quotes that any of them were saying Muhammad was invariably sincere, only that he wasn't an outright fraud. It is often taken to be a sign of insecurity to feel the need to rebut what is never said.Proabivouac 20:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Hah! I don't think we need any more signs from Aminz. Arrow740 21:00, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad was so narcissistic that he was able to convince himself what was he was saying was true. Arrow740 20:58, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Aminz, despite the astonishing advances of 20th century, there is as of yet nothing like a scientific methodology for determining the sincerity of the living, much less the dead. Do you imagine Watt possesses some calculus which in this regard is superior to Muir's? Alternately, why should not Muir's be advanced against those of the 7th century? Many who knew Muhammad believed him; many did not. You, I, Watt and Muir have far less basis to determine this than those who knew him, and they disagreed.Proabivouac 04:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Sincerity
What does Lewis say about Muhammad's sincerity? And I can't help but note that "telling a truth against the objective Truth" is impossible. Arrow740 05:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Arrow740, I prefer not to have any communication with you so please don't edit my talk page. Bernard Lewis commenting on the Medieval conception of Muhammad as a self-seeking imposter writes: "The modern historian will not readily believe that so great and significant a movement was started by a self-seeking imposter. Nor will he be satisfied with a purely supernatural explanation, whether it postulates aid of divine of diabolical origin; rather, like Gibbon, will he seek 'with becoming submission, to ask not indeed what were the first, but what were the secondary causes of the rapid growth' of the new faith" --Aminz 05:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

"I believe"
I like your three I believe statements on your user page. Could you tell me where they come from? --BozMo talk 10:58, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for visiting my page. The first one is a result of studying Christianity. The third one belongs to Al-Ghazali and the second one is mine. --Aminz 11:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Two truths cannot be contradictory. What is the exact Ghazali quote? Arrow740 11:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't remember the exact quote but the context Ghazali used it was that in God's eyes, in polemical discussions, admitting a truth which may cause some people to turn away from the God's true religion is better than telling a lie in order to convince people of God's true religion. Ghazali at some period of his life used to extensively engage in religious polemics but he later changed his manner finding it prone to such sins. --Aminz 11:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Yep, I got that from it, it captures something important which is why I liked it. Truths can contradict IMHO because written words are a projection (in a mathematical sense) from reality and projections don't preserve orthogonality. Which is another way of saying words can never quite be absolutely true, only meanings can and meanings do not have total objectivity. I have a long version of this discussion but you'd be mad to read it.:)  --BozMo talk 11:44, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I am reading it. :) --Aminz 12:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Can you think of two contradictory truths, then? Hopefully I'll be able to understand which truths you are referring to using the words you write here. Arrow740 11:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * There are always sources of ambiguity. Only from the perspective of an omniscience the truths don't contradict. Much of what we really have are evidences or marks, rather than truths. Evidences can turn out to be contradictory with truth. --Aminz 12:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That is true. Arrow740 12:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * And telling the evidences contradictory to the truth is "telling truth" and covering them is "telling lie". That's all I meant :) --Aminz 12:08, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That is very interesting. Things aren't always what we think. Arrow740 12:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, you are asking to be bored to tears but lets try. In religions there are so many of these that they get lampooned by the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the like.. if you are prepared to accept statements about people then this is quite possible. It is all about intent IMHO. e.g. My children will never meet my late father because he died before they were born. If I tell my children a story about my late father in order to try to get them to know what he was like I may succeed in being entirely "true" to his personality without being historically accurate (particularly if I am not trying to be historically accurate, and they understand I am not trying to be: e.g. I might compress two different things he did on different days into a single tale). Then the personal descriptive story might be true to him but contradict the historical truth. In going from the massive data set of his life to a small number of words I could choose one type of projection (history, broadly) or another {perserving personality). The statements in English end up orthogonal. Both types of projection are accurate projections. Whether you can ever accept that the "non historical" one is true is up to you but if not please hand over all your personal collection of paintings since you must believe photos are better. This in not my original research of course its all in The Eclipse of Biblical Narrative by Hans W Frei ISBN: 0300026021 --BozMo talk 12:12, 11 January 2007 (UTC)


 * This is interesting, but in my view there are no conflicting truths here. Arrow740 12:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm...lets try... "My father was such a considerate host that when he had a black tie dinner party and one friend arrived in a lounge suit he immediately went and changed into a lounge suit himself to make his friend feel more comfortable". Historically false but entirely true to my father's personality. I could turn it into a longer statement which is both historically and personally true (if my three year old could understand a subjunctive) but the short statements (the statement in quotes is true and is false) are two contradictory truths. Truth in a statement depends on intent; as long as everyone knows what you are trying to do of course. --BozMo talk 12:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm using a more abstract definition of "a truth" I suppose. I think of a truth as an objectively true statement. Arrow740 12:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Please provide an example of any "objectively true statement" which is not trivial (i.e. non self-referential or semantic). Thanks --BozMo talk 13:21, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I went to the store today. Rape is wrong. If you want me to justify either one of those statements first read about this. Arrow740 13:26, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If you want me to read side articles you should read mine above (but I don't recommend it). --BozMo talk 13:50, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Lets take "Rape is Wrong". If this is not semantic then you cannot define Rape in a way in which makes the statement true (e.g. by defining rape as being wrong non-consensual sex). For this statement to be an "objective truth" you would be saying that there is no circumstance anywhere in the animal kingdom in any context in which rape was acceptable. Not where the last remaining female of a species was in coma and it was the only way to prevent extinction? Not where it was perpetrated by someone in complex societal context to avoid a greater evil. Objective truth "wrong". Hmm. Last time I had that argument it was with John Polkinghorne and he tried "torturing children is wrong". I reckon you could construct circumstances where most things were right (but I rarely disagree with JP). I don't suppose we will convince each other on that. By the way sorry Aminz for cluttering your page with a discussion between two other people! --BozMo talk 13:46, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * "Only from the perspective of an omniscience the truths don't contradict." Yep, that's right I think. When I say only in reality before projecting onto word-space that's what I meant. Sorry I've done Maths for too long. --BozMo talk 12:14, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think you found an example where rape would be OK but I admit you caught me on that one. That was not a truth by my definition. How about these: the Earth orbits a star, and there either will be a nuclear bomb exploded in the US in 2007 or there won't. The really interesting question is, what would it be like if two truths could contradict each other? How could that possibly happen? Logic would have to be flawed. Arrow740 13:55, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Folks, what about just doing away with the concept of truth outside formal logic? That would solve most, if not all, your problems. Beit Or 14:09, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * However, more seriously "truth" means different things in different contexts. If it makes you feel better I do believe in formal and consistent logic and I do not believe in perpetual motion machines. However when you trying to map the real world to language there are always holes. In some cases (earth-star) the holes are vanishingly small (orbits is not really perfect). "Truth" is a value function (0 to 1) on a set of relations between the real world and language (i.e. is a statement true) which we sometimes take by mistake (although it is nearly true as most bad mistakes) as the set of all statements with a truth value of 1. Viewed as a function it makes perfect sense: taken as a set of statements and logic framework it all falls apart... in my view. But I don't mind if you disagree. --BozMo talk 14:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC) BTW the nuclear bomb example is rubbish. Think about "in the US" from a definition perspective... --BozMo talk 14:16, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * We're not restricting ourselves to the first definitions of words according to some dictionary, so the bomb one is alright. Though the language is inaccurate the truth I was expressing with the orbit example is correct. My statement is really a pointer to some objectively true statement of possible infinite length which may only exist as an abstraction. Arrow740 14:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Now, I agree at least with the notion that statements of infinite length can be convergent to objectively true. But when a bomb on the Mexican border is in or out of the US is something you can explain another time. --BozMo talk 14:43, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The bomb one is actually a tautology. Arrow740 04:59, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

"Sunni" caliphs?
Here's an obscure question. This change keeps getting re-inserted by an anon:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam&diff=100165277&oldid=100160463

My view is that it's redundant and confusing to call the first three caliphs "Sunni" because the Shi'a do not believe in caliphs at all; instead they refer to Ali and his descendants as Imams. Do you agree? - Merzbow 06:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


 * OK... so it looks like keeping the text as "Sunni caliphs" might be OK since the word "calipha" that some Shi'as use sounds so similar. - Merzbow 21:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Komak!
Salam o Dorood!

During last month I worked on this article. I would like to invite you to see the article, comment on it and help in improving it. Please feel free to revert any part that is not OK. mamnoonam az shoma.

Please also see: Religious intellectualism in Iran and Religious traditionalism in Iran (ongoing projects). Take care.Sina Kardar 19:23, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your note. Apart from expanding it, the article needs a careful maintenance (keep away from attacks). To avoid any POV, I tried to invite more than 10 wikipedians from different countries and with different viewpoints to help in maintaining this article. Any helps will be highly appreciated.Sina Kardar 11:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks you very much. Great help. I think "History of fundamentalism in Iran" is now more or less in a good shape. I am now working on religious intellectualism in Iran. It's a tough job. Next projects will be "traditional Islam in Iran" and "Secular humanism in Iran". Thanks a lot again. Sina Kardar 12:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Modernity
Salaam! I've added the article in my watchlist. Pakistan is a very new country, maybe India might have intellectuals but still alot less than Iran. To the best of my knowledge, Muhammad Iqbal, Shibli Nomani, Mawdudi (though he was an Islamist whose ideas were even penetrated Qutb), and Islahi.

I was actually listening to a talk and I am a bit depressed (at the moment) from the last 800 years history of Muslims. Interestingly, for Muslims Qur'an has never been a real arena of research. Our best research on Qur'an was conducted in first 200 years after prophet Muhammad and still now we are using it. Hence, we are lingering along with all the shortcomings and good things of that research. And our Madrasahs have no ability to educate themselves properly from Qur'an. This is why, I find western scholarship on Qur'an sometimes more superior to our Muslim scholarship on Qur'an.

I just came to know that when Iran was going through revolution, Mawdudi invited all his close friends to discuss the matter as the situation was changing in the region and he said that he was very much hopeful from the new regime. In the meeting, Ghamidi said, "To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing new in Shiism that would bring drastic changes in society." And he was right, our religous knowledge has now become stagnant.

The good thing is that Qur'an is such a book that even modern scholarship cannot remain unimpressed. The Sunnah is present in Ummah with all its glory. The problem is that the interpretations which we have for Qur'an from last 1200 years may very well be defective in some areas (such as western scholarship doesn't agree with presence of Hijab in Qur'an for all women). In short, we need a huge reform in our regligious education and their methodology, and put alot of effort in social sciences. *sigh*  TruthSpreader reply 03:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Where's the glory? Regarding that article I believe Lewis wrote a book about it, and I'm trying to get my hands on it. Arrow740 04:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality
There is no reason to remove http://hir.harvard.edu/articles/1128/. It would be proper for you should recuse yourself as your partiality results is a Conflict of interest. You remove third-party references and leave http://www.drsoroush.com http://www.khatami.ir/ alone even though they are primary sources with definite advocacy for a cause. Therefore, your bias is obvious.--Patchouli 09:40, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

The Harvard article presents a third-party analysis. I wanted to add, but I am extremely tired & need to sleep and work.--Patchouli 09:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you.--Patchouli 09:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Please See Vandalism about blanking:...Sometimes important verifiable references are deleted with no valid reason(s) given in the summary."

It becomes debatable based on WP:3RR.

However, I assent if you want to remove the 3RR entry.--Patchouli 10:09, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Islamist_democracy. Also, User talk:Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington has reverted my removal at WP:AN3.--Patchouli 10:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Game
No mate! never played it. Cheers!  TruthSpreader reply 11:13, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Religious democracy
Dear Aminz, I did not revert it. User:Patchouli did it as stated by User:Itaqallah. See [] Farhoudk 11:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Bring back ethics to religion
You might want to respond my comment at Talk:Islamist_democracy if you have time.--Patchouli 22:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Islam and other religions
Could you tell me about the opinion of the Qur'an on other faiths (monotheistic and polytheistic) --Kkrystian 11:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC) Kkrystian Talk 12:30 (UTC+1) 14 January 2007


 * Well :P I tried to recognize your religion from your user page but failed. :) Do you believe in all religions? :) --Aminz 11:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * :)))) Well, in fact I do :-) (the one's I innumerated). Are you both Christian and Muslim :-)? Kkrystian 13:43 (UTC+1) 14 January 2007

I don't understand. Please explain what you wrote about the "supreme manager". I don't understand why it's impossible. All these religions are monotheistic and they teach similar ethics. Please explain what you mean. :-) User:Kkrystian 15:23 (UTC+1) 15 Jan 2007

Howdy!
There is already Religious minorities in Iran.

I am currently trying to not get bogged down with this addictive Wikipedia. However, I keep getting inspired with new things to add to WP. My latest is Template:Mohammad Khatami.

By the way, I have found http://www.memritv.org fascinating— you probably know about it already.--Patchouli 11:41, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism by User:Proabivouac
User:Proabivouac has repeatedly vandalised the Islam in China page, constantly reverting the sourced and referenced demographic figures from the bbc website and the 1938 china year book.

He has been warned 6 times of his repeated violation, and has a track record of antimuslim posting, repeatedly destroying muslim articles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Proabivouac

see


 * 10.46 14th January http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
 * 00:22 14th January http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
 * 16:47 13th January http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
 * 00:55 13th January http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
 * 09:15 12th January http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_China&action=history
 * 01:25 11th January http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_China&action=history

He has suggested various dates were innacurate, yet instead of asking for a correction he has deleted on no less that 6 occasions the sourced and referenced dates of
 * http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/china_4.shtml
 * There are in China 48,104,241 Mohammedan followers and 42,371 mosques, largely in Sinkiang, Chinghai, Manchuria, Kansu, Yunnan, Shensi, Hopei, and Honan. "Ferm, Vergilius (ed.). An Encyclopedia of Religion; Westport, CT: Greenwood Press (1976), pg. 145. [1st pub. in 1945 by Philosophical Library. 1976 reprint is unrevised.]

Thanks a lot!
Thank you very much for the Barnstar. Wish you all the best! Sina Kardar 12:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Non-Christian views of Jesus
I have nominated an article you created for deletion. Please see Articles for deletion/Non-Christian views of Jesus. Your comment there would be greatly appreciated.-Andrew c 18:57, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

different perspective
are normally translated as "And Fig and Olive and Mountain Sinai and City of Peace (Makkah)". Ghamidi However translates as "And the village of Fig, the mount of Olive, the mount of Sinai and the city of Makkah". The first two assertions are based on. The mount of Olive is the place where, after Jesus (sws) was lifted, the punishment of those who had rejected him which was to continue till the Day of Judgement, was declared. Fig is a village situated on this mountain.

Hence, Qur'an first takes the name of those places which have seen the God's judgement and then summarizes their story in At-Tin. I found this explanation fascinating and very logical if the whole content of the Surah is seen at the same time. TruthSpreader reply 06:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He writes, "In the Bible, it is referred to as Beth Phage. Here the word “Phage” is actually the word “Fig”." Maybe Islahi would have translated the same way, but because I don't have access to it, I can't say. I was reading from somewhere else, I just realized that this matter is discussed with alittle bit more detail here, although researchers companion for this Surah is not available online (which would have even more detail).  TruthSpreader reply 06:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Interstingly, he has different explanation for fig in his different writings. I know that Ghamidi strongly believes in evolution of thought (ie being a student, you are always exposed to new knowledge hence your understanding of something can differ), but I am not sure that which one is his latest publication. Most probably the first one, as the translation was done in 1995, but Mizan was published in 2001.  TruthSpreader reply 06:55, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * He compares this verse with .  TruthSpreader reply 07:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Muhammad the Reformer
Hi Aminz. I'm not fully sure what to think of it. You remember what I said about the subject a while ago... well, after talking to who I considered a fairly level headed and skeptical scholar who... actually had no qualms with describing him as a reformer I'm not sure how it should be put. I may comment there... but, I wanted to mention that. gren グレン`

Nice
So now you've got your friend User:FayssalF threatening to block me. Nice.Proabivouac 12:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You don't generally try to get editors blocked (besides your CheckUser harassment long ago, which incidentally wouldn't have had me blocked), but User:FayssalF is plainly out of line. Though he's dutifully reverted to your version, surely you can acknowledge this.Proabivouac 12:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, I accept that he's made an ass of himself on his own; shame on him.Proabivouac 12:29, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Aminz, your defense of User:FayssalF's abuse of authority disgusts me.Proabivouac 12:57, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Reformer rename?
Wondering if you could comment on my proposal to rename the "Muhammad as reformer" section articles. It's here. Thanks. - Merzbow 06:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Indent explanation
Dear Aminz, here is what I mean:

First someone begins to write something on a talk page, beginnung at the start of the line.
 * The next one will reply to that or add some comments, using the indent by typing one colon at the start.
 * The next one will add more insight and type two colons.
 * Another one will type three colons.
 * Our first person reacts to this and types four colons.

...and so on until ...


 * someone reaches so far to the right that the text will become unreadable (The judgement when that is is of course given to the individual editor).

He will then move again to the start of the line (some editors add a note "indent reset" but I don't that's necessary).

Below the wrong way of doing it is represent by Editor B.

Editor A
 * Editor B
 * Editor C
 * Editor B
 * Editor D
 * Editor B

Editor B here always goes one step back instead of one step further.

This serves well enough to distinguish different editors but it botches the sequence, especially in the light of the common practice of an editor E replying to an earlier posting but not to later postings. He will post it behind the relevant comment, moving his further to the right, say like this:

Editor A
 * Editor B
 * Editor C
 * Editor E
 * Editor B

This now looks similar to the way Editor B posted above, but it isn't. Without E's posting the sequence here would be perfectly linear and only E's posting makes it complicated. But one look will tell us E replies to C but only after B had posted already. E does not reply to B.

If you editor B indents in the wrong way of indent, people will at first consider his posting a reply to A (and himself) and not to C, when in fact he is replying to C. Only a comparison of the dates of the posting will reveal that.

So, rule of thumb: always move further to the right until you can no more. Make sure your comments stays to the right of those comments you reply to.

I hope my explanation is not too confusing. Cheers, Str1977 (smile back) 08:59, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Newyorkbrad's RfA
Thank you for your support on my RfA, which closed favorably this morning, as well as for your kind comments accompanying your !vote. I appreciate the confidence the community has placed in me and am looking forward to my new responsibilities. Please let me know if ever you have any comments or suggestions, especially as I am learning how to use the tools. Best regards, Newyorkbrad 19:42, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Requests for comment/Aminz
Please be informed that a request for comment involving you has been started. Beit Or 21:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Reversion
You can't remove anything from any page except for a valid reason. That includes this talk page. Arrow740 22:06, 22 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Bozmo has corrected me. Only warning messages and such must stay. Arrow740 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Intercession
The concept of praying or asking for mercy for someone else is different from intercession. I can pray for you to God that "May God give you success in your work". But to actually affect the God's decision, is simply not possible. And you've given a very good example yourself. Even Abraham's (as) request wasn't accepted because it was simply against the rules set by God. Similar concepts can be found in Qur'an, when God says to prophet Muhammad that even though you pray for them, but you can't save them from going astray (a pre-requisite for salvation). Hence, I do believe that people can pray for you, but it must not be seen more than a request. Secondly, asking to pray from someone who has already died is completely out of question in this case as the person is not listening (unless you believe in Ghosts).  TruthSpreader reply 22:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe that for this world, or here after or even for Judgement day, others can pray for us. There is a very find line between these concepts. First you ask someone else to pray for you, then you consider him the only hope to be successfulness. This shift takes this request into the realm of shirk. Just like polytheists of Arabia were still believing in Allah, but they also used to consider others as intercessors.
 * This concept has been strongly purported by Qur'an e.g.
 * O Children of Israel! Remember My favor wherewith I favored you and how I preferred you to [all] creatures. And guard yourselves against a day when no soul will in aught avail another, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be received from it, nor will they be helped. (2:47-8)
 * Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtakes Him. Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedes with Him save by His leave? (2:225)

 TruthSpreader reply 01:06, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The debate is good reading on this. If only the Quran were clear on the issue. Arrow740 04:26, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

RfC comment & separate question
Hello. I have noted the "dispute" at the RfC. I acknowledge up front that I am a rather devout Christian, so that my own perhaps disputable position in this is known in advance. However, I and several others are beginning to try to work on the major articles regarding religion as a part of the recently-revived WikiProject Religion. I know up front that all sides in religious wars have generally overemphathized their own "innocence" in the world, Christianity among the more obvious of them. However, I also note that there often are other articles relating to the specific religions in addition to the main one, and that in many cases these other articles might be the best place to put the majority of such content. So far as I can tell there are very few featured articles regarding specific faiths (Baha'i Faith is the only one I can think of off the top), so I believe that all of these articles can and should receive more attention and work. I am curious as to whether you would be interested in perhaps joining the project above. Right now I am still in the process of trying to "discover" all of the articles relevant to the various existing smaller-scope religion projects, and think that perhaps it might be awhile before I can return to working on articles in earnest. However, I do think that that body, which is trying to represent a more universal view of the various religions, might be the best place for discussion of the perhaps more negative sides of all faiths to be discussed. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 23:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
 * As soon as I get all the articles "pigeonholed", I expect to be set up a to-do list. Right now, the problem I have is that I don't know what all articles are out there. However, if you do know of any articles that you do think are in need of work of any sort, please feel free to add it. Like I said, right now I'm trying to assess and categorize all the articles in the field, an incredible number, so that we can know which projects best relate to which articles. Thanks for having joined, and, if you wish, please feel free to make any comments or suggestions that you think we can work on now. Badbilltucker 00:52, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Sincerity question
Hi Aminz I said on the Muhammad talk page that I would try to come up with a single sentence summarising the sincerity question. I am thinking of something like "A number of historians have addressed the question of whether Muhammad was sincere when he reported receiving revelations. A nineteenth century historian concluded that he was not sincere.(ref Muir) The contemporary historians reject this interpretation and say that as far as can be ascertained Muhammad did believe that he was hearing the word of God." (refs Lewis, Schimmel, whoever else) Oh, three sentences! This is hard work. If you would like to revise it, please do.Itsmejudith 13:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Criticism of X
Whatever X is, the article is about criticism, not X. Arrow740 21:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually Arrow I agree with that...--BozMo talk 22:42, 25 January 2007 (UTC)


 * But Criticism of X articles should also contain a response to Criticisms section. Not only criticisms. --Aminz 00:22, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course. But the Crone stuff is not a response to criticism. Arrow740 06:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is. She does talk about the sword verse, the purpose of warfare, etc etc. Further, the main response to critics is that they misinterpret the text, so giving an scholarly view on the issue explains the contrast. The very fact that you find her views contradicting with what you have written in the criticism section shows that she is opposing that. --Aminz 06:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Crone does not respond to criticism because she doesn't say "Critics say X; however, they are wrong because X is flase and Y is true". She only talks about an interpretation of the verse that she finds conceivable. The interpretation of this verse by Muslim scholars is different, though, and she does not deny it. Beit Or 14:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * She talks about those verses. The main response to critics is that they pick verses out of their context, so a short explation of the relevant verses is part of the response. Also, please note that the size of the criticism section (if we include Crone) is 2.5 more than the size of criticisms. Also, the response section contains Spencer's responses to the responses as well which makes it more unfair. --Aminz 18:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You are the one responding; this is OR. Arrow740 19:36, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

The anon
It's OK for someone to step in when there's an anon who does nothing but revert without discussion. Arrow740 05:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * That's right. I'm not sure why such users are allowed. It's obviously someone else, anyhow.Proabivouac 06:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You might want to ask for some admin help. That seems to be the proper way. --Aminz 06:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Am happy to help when around, of course. --BozMo talk 14:47, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Islamic ethics
You complained at my aggressive tone in my description of that article. Can you see my side of it? I've given you a long time to fix it instead of nominating if for deletion a week ago. Arrow740 08:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Calling something rubbish is not proper. Wikipedia doesn't pay me to work on particular articles. Please add clean up tag(or other tags) if you think it needs a rewrite. I'll work on that article when I get free. You can also nominate it for deletion if you think the article is essentially unencyclopedic. --Aminz 08:20, 27 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Do you know about Ten Commandments in Qur'an? They are mentioned together at .  TruthSpreader reply 14:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know what was in Ghamidi's mind, but if you count them in the verse as it is presented in the list on the article, they turn out to be ten.  TruthSpreader reply 04:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Islam and science
Good additions there. So tell me, why are you so angry at me all the time? Arrow740 08:12, 28 January 2007 (UTC) You can email me if you want. Arrow740 08:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Arrow, for most part the disagreements naturally happen in the articles we edit. I am not perfect but have tried to quit discussions whenever I felt my mood is going for worst, but your comment shows I should try harder. --Aminz 09:20, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I may move some of that material to the body of the article as that seems to be more in keeping with WP:LEAD, hopefully we can see eye-to-eye on that. Arrow740 08:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please go ahead. I am busy these days and will be less active. Cheers, --Aminz 08:47, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Countries you don't like
I think i mean every thing By it.

Khalidkhoso 08:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

One of my Balouch friend lived there his Whole life. But he was always abused,ignored(even he is shia like them) just because he is Blouch i will include ppls in it too.

Khalidkhoso 08:52, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I think word racist. will fit them

Khalidkhoso 09:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

In the 70's the Pakistan army with support of Iran waged war against Balochistan Liberation Army and thousands of Annocinet Balouch were killed just in search of Freedom fighters.you can search on event of 1970's.i will send u some more links on it.my lived in Tehran. Khalidkhoso 09:10, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Why haven't you included the flag of Pakistan (not that this would be good, I am only curious)? And what's your issue with Israel?Proabivouac 09:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Proabivouac, I am not sure if Khalid reads my talk page. :) --Aminz 09:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Aminz, I hope this serves as a learning experience for you to see these flags denounced as one; now you know what Israelis go through every day.Proabivouac 09:04, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear here are those artilces ,u try to write but many times those were revearted to i am no more on it. Balochistan_Liberation_Army Balochistan_conflict.

Khalidkhoso 09:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

'''Proabivouac, I am not sure if Khalid reads my talk page. :) --Aminz''' He can. :P Khalidkhoso 09:27, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No contest :) --Aminz 09:28, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

sorry to say Aminz ur country is in list.check it out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Expatkiwi. Khalidkhoso 09:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Aminz,i am removing your country flag from my list.but i can not say any thing abut any other country. Salam Khalidkhoso 09:45, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

check this out for Balouch future http://fpc.org.uk/fsblob/817.pdf

i think if this topic comes to notice board then it will be fine ,till then i would not remove Isreal Flag.


 * Aminz, you're not going to accept this as adequate, are you?Proabivouac 10:00, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

this user is Vandlizing my page without any disscusion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Viridae

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EoS&R
Aminz!!! It was excellent ;( (tears of joy). I just can't praise enough!!!!  TruthSpreader reply 12:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Islam and science??  TruthSpreader reply 13:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!
Thank you for re-adding all that to Glen S' talk page - I had no idea I was removing all that while editing one of my comments. &mdash; King Ivan  07:26, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Historicity
Aminz, I'm impressed by the level-headed and informative nature of your editting today.Proabivouac 22:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Is that an ironic statement? --Aminz 22:56, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not at all.Proabivouac 23:00, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Re:Funny
I personally think that all these arguments are valid if you are looking at God from Judaic-Christian perspective. As Beit Or also gave a very good comment on my talk page. Muslims believe that God knows everything, but it is in our hand to take decisions in a certain framework, provided to us in that situation. God has no limitation, it is simply the very nature of this world that brings bad things to this world i.e. world was created to test people, not to reward them. And lastly, God doesn't have any analogy to humans. It is a very Judaic-Christian thing. As some of my Jewish friends, they even consider God as another bloak. Cheers!  TruthSpreader reply 23:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I fully agree. When I first listened to Ghamidi, I still remember, he said that "Islam is a code of life" is not a hadith, and is not a Qur'anic verse rather it contradicts the basics of Islamic law which interfere human life in only a given framework e.g. ethics etc. (these are those spheres in which humans mostly go wrong). All other things which we do in life, we use our knowledge, our senses and our intellect. This is why God never told humans that how to make cars or how to progress in science, or how to make a good political system rather it just gives to basic principles. But unfortunately, Muslims want to follow the whole Khilafah system (which is a primitive type of tribal system) but they are not ready to implement democracy, which Qur'an clearly demands from the community of believers or democracy is kept restricted to scholars (a hypcratical interpretation by clerics).  TruthSpreader reply 03:43, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know what to say. Some of the points are really "absurd" or maybe even against Islamic teachings, like "we will not teach Qur'an to our children"! I would strongly look at it with suspicion. Also, the first appearance is in Al-Tabarri, which is famous in his Qur'anic exegesis as "compendium of the opinions of authorities of the past", so sometimes Al-Tabarri just presents that information for the sake of preserving the information, unlike Muhaddithin, who scruitinize hadith.  TruthSpreader reply 04:23, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Islam and antisemitism
The undiscussed POV rewrite that you're doing on that article is precisely the sort of editing that has triggered the RFC on you. At this point, I can see only two options. The first one is that you will The second option is that you will persist in your behavior. In this case, the dispute resolution will have to proceed to the next stage. Hopefully, you realize that the second option is obviously inferior. However, the choice is yours. Beit Or 20:34, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Discuss any major edits to any article,
 * 2) Respect the opinions of other editors, and
 * 3) Refrain from edit warring.


 * I didn't rewrite. I added some more sourced material. I don't think I have removed any of the sourced material which was already there. I just added the subdivision between Meccan period and Medinian period. That's not a rewrite. I don't remember you discussed anything when you rewrote the whole article. --Aminz 20:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Please discuss your points here . --Aminz 20:44, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You have completely rewritten the section on Jews in the Qur'an. Anything negative (e.g., Leon Poliakov) was buried deeply near the bottom of the section. Instead you have inserted vaguely positive quotes that are not in any way relevant to the subject of the article at the top of the section. This is your signature: anything positive must go straight to the lead or at least to the top of the relevant section, anything negative must be buried near the bottom. Before I did any edits to Islam and antisemitism, there had been a long and painful discussion about Islam and antisemitism on Antisemitism. I'm really urging you to reconsider your behavior, stop doing what you're doing, and abide by the three rules above. I can't be more serious. Beit Or 20:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes that is the problem. Problematic material must be prefaced with his opinion, cited to a reliable source. Arrow740 22:22, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Beit Or, Is that my signiture or yours? . Plus, the Qur'anic polemics against Jews is not a negative thing. --Aminz 02:05, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hopefully, that is a temporary slip. Arrow740 02:49, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Can we move this to the talk page? I've left a number of comments there. Aminz, some of your material looked fine, but what you did to the section overall was not good. Beit Or's observation about the order of presentation seems to me quite valid.Proabivouac 04:23, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

POV tag
Please give convincing reasons for it or remove it. Arrow740 08:18, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Would you like to comment on User_talk:Arrow740.  TruthSpreader reply 08:28, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Battle of Kahybar
I think you owe Proabivouac an explanation on the talk page, as to why the "POV tag" should stay.Bless sins 19:45, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Article
I have just as much right to edit that article as you do. KittyHawker 22:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

WP:POINT
I removed the clause "...although according to Watt many of the old prejudices still linger on" becuase it added nothing to what was already stated from the same source - "Most are gone but some remain" is no different from "most are gone" -  except for POV. We don't learn which prejudices lingered on - the last one stated was "The development of the concept of Mahound started with considering Muhammad as a kind of demon or false god worshipped with Apollyon and Termangant in an unholy trinity" which I challenge you to find anyone saying today. I'd never ever heard of that until you added it (good work). Neutrally-stated informative topical sourced material I do not remove, ever.

In contrast, Funnypop12 edit-wars to remove all of your hard work by blanking the entire section, falsely claiming it was unsourced, but you're upset about one phrase, the meaning of which was entirely preserved (sans POV)? That's a bad reason to join mediation. You yourself uploaded a depiction of Muhammad! See WP:POINT.

I guess the fact that I reverted Funnypop12's section blanking whenever I saw it (missed it that last time) counts for nothing. Were I to act like you're acting here, I would join Funnypop12 in blanking the section after the article is unprotected.Proabivouac 04:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You did the same thing on WP:ANI, jumping in to bring up completely unrelated issues against Karl Meier. That's disruptive, really.

If you had something specific about contemporary Western negative conceptions of Muhammad, I suppose we might add a sentence or two (not longer, to avoid recentism.) Usually it's critics who add things like that, though, and I'd be reluctant to re-add the "Criticisms" section, because they are magnets for POV-pushing. Just saying "Westerners are prejudiced against Muhammad," however, isn't informative, and certainly isn't neutral.Proabivouac 04:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * explains the "grave difficulties" of modern occidental readers in attaining a balanced understanding of the histocial role of Muhammad. --Aminz 04:48, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything there that's specific enough re contemporary attitudes to be citable.


 * For a good laugh, head on over to Allah where someone has added a sourced but very marginal claim that "Allah" stands for "Arm, Leg, Leg, Arm, Head" - should we remove it? It's sourced and topical, but marginal, and mainly serves to make the sect in question look ridiculous.Proabivouac 05:20, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * That's funny but it should be kept.
 * Re: Contemporary views of Muhammad, Watt says: "Since that time much has been achieved, especially durin the last two centuries, but many of the old prejudices linge on.", he doesn't say "some", he says "many". Proabivouac, it is not so hard to show that.
 * The passage I referenced from the Cambridge History of Islam, ] is (I've seen) quoted in two other scholarly works. I don't think that it is not citable.
 * ALSO, this might be aside but please compare the story of addition of the unfactual POV sentence: "Contemporary scholars believe that Muhammad moved to attack Khaybar in order to raise his prestige among his followers, as well as to capture booty to sustain subsequent conquests." with the story of "sincerety of Muhammad".--Aminz 07:08, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
 * You may have a point here. I shall consider this for a bit.Proabivouac 09:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

re:
ta-marbuta (ة) is not pronounced unless the word is succeeded by another. on its own, it is pronounced and written: salāh. when it has something following it, like in salāt al-janāzah, then the ta is pronounced. i think in persian and other derivative languages they say "salat" anyway, but the most appropriate rendering is probably the former. same with zakāh. thanks.  ITAQALLAH  02:07, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * it's covered here i believe. anyway, thanks for the kind undo :-)  ITAQALLAH   02:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)