User talk:AFBorchert/Archives/2011

regarding copyright
Have you got any mail regarding the copyright of http://lionsdist322c2.org, If yes then please tell me regarding this in my talk page. Odisha1 (talk) 18:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Odishal, I've found two emails and joined them into one ticket (2011022110011361) and attached a OTRS received template to Talk:Giridharilal Kedia. I've requested a confirmation email and will tag this article with PermissionOTRS as soon as it arrives. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 21:40, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

please go through Talk:Giridharilal_Kedia
Please go through the Talk:Giridharilal_Kedia and restore/undelete the page Giridharilal Kedia Odisha1 (talk) 07:20, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Odisha1, I'm not an admin at en-wp. Please feel free to submit your request to WP:DRV or to ask some admin to restore the article into your user page such that you have the opportunity to outline the notability. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 07:38, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Annaghdown: Old Protestant Church
re | this edit -- The church in the south of the new cemetery in Annaghdown is not Annaghdown Cathedral -- it is a Protestant church constructed about 1798. During construction, the oriel east window was taken stone by stone from Annaghdown Cathedral, which is attached to the north of Annaghdown Abbey. Annaghdown (talk) 23:02, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Annaghdown, I'm afraid you are mistaken. If the plaque in front of the northern doorway and erected by the Bord Fáilte Éireann does not convince you which reads ANNAGHDOWN CATHEDRAL [..] The present church was not built until the 15th century though it contains a fine 12th century Romanesque window possibly taken from the Priory 100 yeards west of here, and if you fail to see that the doorway is a medieval work, you should consider the literature. Let us start with the Archaeological Inventory of County Galway, Vol. II – North Galway, ISBN 0-7076-6179-X, entry 3293 at p. 292:
 * Part of the monastic complex (No. 3290) at Annaghdown, it stands at S end of the modern graveyard, 75m SEE of the ‘Nunnery’ (No. 3291). Named variously in older accounts as the ‘Protestant’ or ‘Church of England’ church [..], indicating that it was in use until the 18th C. It is now a conserved Nat. Mon. comprising an intact rectangular church (E–W; L 15.8m, Wth 6.05m) possibly of late medieval date, though the heavy rendering make dating difficult; an enigmatic vertical line is visible in the masonry of N wall towards E end. There is a pointed arch doorway in N wall, towards W end, for which Harbison [..] suggests a date ‘about 1200’. The E gable incorporates a magnificent late Romanesque window [..]. Opinions as to the original location of these two elements differ; Killanin and Duignan [..] suggest that the present structure ‘may well occupy the site of an earlier church’, but the view more commonly advocated is that the window came from the abbey (No. 3294). There are two pointed arch windows in S wall, a robbed window in N wall and a bell tower on the apex of W gable, all of which probably date to the 17th C or later. Within the interior are numerous cut-stone fragments, some of which may be 12th–13th C in date [..].
 * This entry is from 1991. There exist also some more recent publications. Seán Spellissy, a local historian, writes in his work The History of Galway: City & County, ISBN 0-9534683-4-8, p. 255:
 * The cathedral has a late Gothic doorway in the north wall. The fine east window is believed to have been taken from the chancel of Annaghdown Priory, about 100 yards west of the Cathedral, probably when the cathedral was in use as the Protestant parish church. [..] Most of the remaining building seems to date from the fifteenth century, but it contains fragments of older buildings that may have belonged to an earlier church on the same site or may have been brought here from the priory. The windows in the southern wall of the cathedral date from the period in which it was used for Protestant worship. According to Samuel Lewis this church was “a small neat building” erected for £500 in 1798. As most of the structure dates from the fifteenth century the building was probably remodelled and modernised in 1798. The amount of money spent on the cathedral would also suggest it was renovated rather than built at this time, as the glebe-house, built in 1818, cost £800, £300 more than the cathedral.
 * And finally it is of interest to read the recently published work by Peter Harbison: A Thousand Years of Church Heritage in East Galway, ISBN 1-901658-58-9, p. 36:
 * The second building focus is the Cathedral, located further down the slope. This is a tall rectangular building with Gothic north doorway, with capitals resembling the carving on Kilfenora cathedral of c.1200, and with broad south windows inserted when the Church of Ireland restored the church for divine worship in 1798 at the cost of £461-10-9. The present east window may have been inserted at this time. It has the same dimensions as a gap that exists where an east window ought to be in the priory by the lakeshore, and this has given rise to the oft-expressed view that the Cathedral window was taken from the priory – which is certainly a possibility. But, because masons have rarely succeeded in correctly reassembling Romanesque doorways or windows centuries after they were originally carved, the comparatively good fit of the Annaghdown Cathedral window being in its original position, for although its style may differ from that of the north doorway just mentioned, the two need not be very far apart in date.
 * From this we can summarize, that the Cathedral was subsequently used as a Protestant parish church but is in fact much older than 1798. It was quite common practice of the Church of Ireland to reuse former churches and cathedrals of significance. Examples are Clonfert Cathedral in County Galway or the Protestant parish church in Lorrha, County Tipperary. It is also to be noted that Annaghdown was not a bishop's seat in early Christian times. Annaghdown was not in the list of dioceses in 1152, the first known bishop is Conn O Mellaig from 1189. (See Gwynn and Hadcock: Medieval Religious Houses Ireland, ISBN 0-582-11229-X, p. 60.) At that time bishops and cathedrals were already separated from monasteries even if they shared a location. And we cannot be sure that this window was actually moved from the choir of the Abbey of St. Mary de Portu Patrum. It is possible but as Harbison outlined, there also points speaking against it. And if it happened, it remains unclear when this was done.
 * The other building you apparently believe to be the cathedral and from which possibly the window was taken and which is commonly named as the ‘priory’ is in fact the Abbey of St. Mary de Portu Patrum which was founded by Turlogh O'Conor in 1140, probably on the iniative of Saint Malachy, as house of Augustinian Canons. The term Annaghdown Abbey is, BTW, ambiguous as we have also at Annaghdown the Abbey of St. John the Baptist de Cella Parva, which was a house of Premonstratensian Canons and it at times refered to as ‘nunnery’. You'll find the ruins of it north of the Cathedral at the graveyard. I hope this settles it and allows you to undo this edit. Please let me know if you have still some open questions regarding the history of the ecclesiastical buildings in Annaghdown. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 12:33, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks, AFBorchert.


 * Interestingly, the antiquarian William Wilde, in his book Lough Corrib, its Shores and Islands, published 1867, referred to the Abbey Church as a cathedral, leading to some confusion on my part:


 * pp. 66-67: Attached to the north side of the monastery is the Abbey Church, the west gable and the north walls of which are still standing, as also a portion of the south walls at the west, where it is supported by a remarkably well-built buttress of dressed stone, evidently of much later date. The entire length of this Domhnach Mór, or large cathedral church, is 108 feet 9 inches, by 21 feet 2 inches broad in the clear, of which space the chancel occupies 17.5 feet by 14.5, having a reveal of 4 feet on each side.


 * p.71: The east window of this cathedral church has been long since removed, and nothing now remains there but an irregular gap in the wall; there can, however, be little doubt that every stone of that beautous specimen of mediaeval Irish work is still in existence; and thanks to the taste, if not the honesty, of the architect of the adjacent Protestant church, it will there be found, presenting interiorly, as perfect a condition as when the adjoining church was unroofed. This building, like every other ecclesiastical structure at Annaghdown, is a ruin: and its last use -- that of a ball-alley -- has been discontinued for want of Sunday occupants; and the present parish church is some miles distant. This window consists of a deeply-splayed circular-headed light, 8 feet high in the clear of the opening, and 12 feet high internally.


 * Annaghdown (talk) 15:53, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Annaghdown, Sir William Wilde's Lough Corrib was at its time a major piece of work with a lasting effect. Richard Hayward wrote about him in his preface to his own work about The Corrib Country from 1943: In writing “The Corrib Country” I have not in any sense sought to usurp the secure affection which Sir William Wilde's “Lough Corrib” enjoys in the hearts of the Irish people, and in the hearts of those multitudes of people all over the world who are not Irish but who love Ireland and the Irish scene. Sir William's pioneer work, in its painstaking detail, its wide sweep, and its picturesque Victorian assurance, is likely to remain for all time the standard book on the subject to which so delightfully, and betimes so solemnly, it addresses itself. But it took some time of research after the publication of Sir Wilde's work to learn more about the history of these ruins and to recognize when the remaining structures were built. And as we have so few surviving records, some riddles will possibly never be resolved. Regards, AFBorchert (talk) 16:41, 1 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, it is interesting to note that there was, in fact, a Protestant church built in Annaghdown parish in 1798, but not at this location. It was located a few miles from these ruins, at Aughclogeen. Conal Thomas: Notes on the Aughclogeen Church of Ireland Ruins in Anach Cuain 2004; A Community Publication of Annaghdown Parish, p.53:


 * The church was a small building, for the erection of which the late Board of First Fruits granted £500 in 1798. The Glebe house, situated on a 20 acre site, still stands near Cregg cemetery. It was built by aid of a gift of £350 and a loan of £450 in 1818 by the same board.


 * There seems to have been confusion between the two churches. Perhaps the Board of First Fruits granted money to both causes at the same time, or perhaps the grant for the new church was afterwards interpreted to be a grant for the restoration of the Cathedral? Annaghdown (talk) 17:56, 1 June 2011 (UTC)