User talk:AJ9/December 2011 Archive

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Soaps
Hey there. I and JG really appreciate the compliments you gave. You sound like a dream to be honest, someone interested in US soaps and actually taking the first steps to improving them. I have never seen it happen before, so what you are planning is positive. That formula we use, we adopted as a variation of what some British soap editors come up with. As you know, no one owns anything on Wikipedia, so you'll be fine adopting the style.

Normally you would be required to build a consensus to change things - but in this case I believe you do not need to in this case - because the main contributors are IP's, who oppose Wikipedia's guidelines and blatantly ignore WP:GNG. So if you chose to add sourced content, you are following the norm for Wikipedia. I agree about the articles being a mass of storyline information separated by many different subheadings. They are mainly super fans of these shows and therefor think Wikipedia's guidelines do not apply to their favourite soap opera. I'd say they are stuck in the 2004-07 era when there was a lot of fancruft present, and they never really moved on from it.

I'm a massive soap fan, so I know there is a temptation to go into over detail about the characters storylines. I want every character to have an article, but I know that not all of them are notable. So I'd suggest that you start by picking on the notable characters, building the real world element and explaining the fiction clearly. Sourcing is so important here - so I do have one suggestion. I noticed that you have added sources, but from a forum. Forums are not reliable sources and do not hold any credibility here. So it may be better to have an experiment on which news agencies, entertainment websites, primary sources Aka The serial's official website, about.com and SOAPnet because it broadcasts various ones. Archives like the free library and High beam (Which is currently offering a free trial) are useful for old sources. In addition to trawling Google for sources, try their News archive - That search for Sami Brady pulled up over thirty reliable sources for her. I get that because you know the show, you will want to make a point like you did using the forums for Taylor Hayes - the approach I think we take is if it isn't mentioned in the news then it probably shouldn't be mentioned on Wikipedia. As we are fans we know what is worth including, so it easier to find a reliable source. There are some good alternatives for Taylor in the archive - In addition YouTube, Blogs, IMDB and TV.com are examples of bad source choices. TV.com is owned by a reputable company now, so these days they have interviews, so I'd say only interviews hosted by them are okay or any press releases. Watch out for the user generated content though. Soapssheknows IMO should be used as a last resort and Soapcentral is the worst, so it should never be used. The alternative. Soap opera magazines, they're great sources for all the behind the scenes information they generate.

I'll always help you if you need to find sources for a character. Stick to it too, you can really create something worth the read, and once one person makes the change to articles, others usually follow. I noticed you apologized for the length of your message, well look at the length of mine. :p Rain the One  BAM 19:22, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Aw thank you so much for this advice! Yea..it is soo hard to find good sources :( I tried heaps of digging but found close to nothing. Thank you, i will try not to use them as sources, I know they are not very good sources. I really just can't stand the way these articles are going! Its shocking and a joke. I Just want help because i can't edit all of the articles i want to and most people will probably reject the idea of me trying to change the format of pages. I attempted to add a "Reception" or "public image" part to the Taylor Hayes article. I couldn't find many reliable sources. Because the whole page (other then the beginning which says it is a fictional character) is written like she is a real person, and doesn't explain anything from the outside world point of view. I recently moved to Australia, and started watching Home & Away and i decided to get a knowledge of the characters and story lines, and i was completely glued to your articles. When the articles are as good as that, i know people will want to read them. Yes so true...Forums are terrible sources. I just needed to get at least one source in there - people who edit the page seem to think that adding no sources or view from the outside of the character is right. Yes it is tempting to right on and on (especially with characters i love) but the page is so out-of-balance; A part of which the character had a huge year of storylines is covered in two sentences, while a single episode is covered in a whole sub-heading. And other times, people go really crazy after someone gets married on a soap, i update their Spouse(s) section within a week of the marriage; however they constantly remove it demanding a source. It's just annoying because the source will eventually be removed from the info-box relationship section. Its totally wrong. And i reached out to someone about this on Wikipedia, and say stated "that's how they are done and its right that way." It just really peeves me off. That means a lot that you could help me find sources - i actually would accept that help because i really can't find much. Yes, i have reverted several edits stating that this is Wikipedia not a fan site but no one cares. And i tried to begin making the articles seem better by seeing what would happen if i change the info-box colour (and this isn't much, it does nothing to the page) but people started freaking out. I just changed the info-box from clear (which are only usually used for actors if i am correct) to Lavender, to clarify this is a fictional character. People even tried to block me. I just can't sit here and watch these pages suffer anymore. I will take down all of the Forum stuff, sorry. :) thank you so much, you are much appreciated :). I hope i can rely on you for support because people are very rude on here sometimes. SoapJar21 (talk) 09:26, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, it seems to me if i even touch the format of the info-box people get freaked out and revert my edits straight away. I guess im just a little scared to make a difference on pages because some will keep on reverting my edits. :\ SoapJar21 (talk) 09:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Right, so I think it is a safe observation that reverting all of your edits was done in bad faith. This is because as I said, you were trying to improve the article, but you made a slip up with some of the source. Musicfreak should have had a look through the changes a little closer - because apart from mislabelled you a vandal - they removed sourced content, which is a no-no - I don't think they noticed it because it was legit at the end of the day. Regarding the image, it was fine how it was, I just use screenshots because IMO it is being greedy using fancy promo shots - but everyone has a different opinion about that one and it doesn't matter which is used. I can understand that you are disheartened by the revert too - but I don't think you should leave. Request an admins help to retrieve your password and then write it down for safe keeping. If you come back, I'm happy to help you. I didn't reply earlier because I was busy, but normally I reply asap lol Rain the One  BAM 03:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well thanks for this. In fact - my dream for Soap Opera fictional character pages (for all around the world, UK, Australian and US Soaps) Is for them all to have the same format. It just makes a whole heap of sense. Yes, i admit the information i provided wasn't the best but it was a step forward. And It's frustrating and disheartening (you are correct) when i just attempted to do this. I'm not sure if i should come back. There are hundreds of editors like MusicfreakWhatever who will continue to revert my edits. But i think i will try and get my password back and have another go at it, if you will take up that offer for helping me. I have to admit making a difference to all of these articles was initially scary for me (to do it by myself) and i tried to as Musicfreak to help me, but got no response. They assume i am attacking them and their edits. I personally think screen shots are better...and i had gathered over 10 free images (links) that i was hoping you would upload for me (10 characters, 5 from B&B, 2 from Y&R and 3 from DOOL) which could be used however i can't be bothered taking away "Their" picture as they insist i am attacking them. And they were all from 2011, which i acquired. It would be a real good thing if you do help me..(even though you are busy with other articles, but maybe while Neighbours and Home and away are off air for the Christmas season :) ) because i feel i could learn alot from you and i could use these skills to further improve articles by myself. :) Thankyou 101.160.189.210 (talk) 03:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank god i wrote the password in my diary! SoapJar21 (talk) 03:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm, so you figured it out quickly.. well if that happens again you could ask at the Help desk because I've never forgot my password. I would suggest keeping an open mind, MF just has a different take on the articles - it just saves any arguements - just do not take it personally and keep the focus on article improvement rather than editors conduct, that was one of the better peices of advice I had when I joined over five years ago. The free images sound great, just make sure they are free though - because the whole lisence thing is sure confusing. Tbh while Neighbours and H&A are off air is the perfect time to improve them. And the five British soaps currently on air. I always make time to help others though, so don't sweat it. You are going to have to come up with a way to work with the other US soap editors though, I cannot figure that one out for you. A good idea is to look at what consensus there is atm for various related stuff to do with them. Obviously you know WP:SOAPS, so it is good to have a look around there. However, a lot of the layout etc are not covered by a formal consensus at WP:SOAPS, some will try to say "well we have always done this, so there must be a consensus" - not the case half the time. Are you familiar with many of the guidelines to do with fiction etc? A lot of the time the articles are editing out of line with policy - so it'll be good to spot blatant issues easy - and it does get easy after a few times. Rain the One  BAM 04:00, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

These are a benefit for editing fictional chaarcter articles - the US Soaps must not have seen these all that often. Sorry to say there are many more that are useful, but I'll let you figure that out. They too are all as boring to read as those - but helpful all the same and sure explain it better than me. I think I drone on a bit much at times. lol Rain the One  BAM 04:17, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * MOS:FICTION - This is one of the biggest players when it comes to writing about fiction.
 * WP:CRUFT - Explains what may qualify as fancruft.
 * Always make sure the subject you are tackling is going to clearly pass WP:GNG
 * WP:POV - Applies to wuite a few aspects, the main one I find which is abused here is presenting a subject with only "good stuff". So while we may enjoy the show or it's characters - we need to make sure both sides are weighed in fairly. So if the character is unpopular, critisied in the media etc - include that as well as the praise they receive.
 * WP:SOURCES - We touched on that, but it might be good to have another look.
 * Yea thanks for that. I've read some of them before but as you know i haven't been editing for a while (well, only here and there). Yes i know where MF is coming from...But its just very hard to try and improve an article when someone removes your work - and its not like i wrote a paragraph about the colour of Taylor's hair. The pages just need a view from the REAL world if you get what i mean. Haha really? Yes that is true. You can work on H&A & Neighbours articles without having to update every single character's story line i guess it is easy then :). Yes they are definitely free. It's just you seem like such a pro at uploading pics and i saw you do it for others :) but forget the pictures, ill just let that go. I've found over 10 sources I'm hoping to add (from Newspapers and CBS and other sites). Thankyou once again. SoapJar21 (talk) 04:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Always keep an open mind with weird subjects. If her hair is notable, then it could be included. Ignore the terrible article for Nancy Hayton but type her name in on google, it'll come up with the suggestion "Nancy Hayton Hair" - When I get around to revamped that article, there will be a hair section with a wad of sources. ;) Rain the One  BAM 05:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * haha :) that is true. I used to watch that soap lol..But i mean for things that aren't notable...On US Soap pages. Like "Taylor goes to Hospital", "Liam and Steffy get Married"", "liam knows the truth" - its pointless having titles. Yes but true any subject which is notable enough like her hair would have a sub heading. :) SoapJar21 (talk) 05:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ahh, now I'd only include subheadings in real world sections if there is enough information. So with Taylor's article, I'd group all the casting information together until it is expanded. Headers are usually used to make better reading, splitting overly long sections. Are you in the US, cus it must be late? It is really early in the morning here in the UK, so I'm off to bed. lol Rain the One  BAM 05:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Nahh ha :). I was born In Australia but moved to The US when i was 3 and i am back in Oz now :). Besides, i go to bed anytime i want lol :) SoapJar21 (talk) 05:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Talk me through these free images you are on about, It does sound a little too good to be true if I'm honest. It is almost impossible to find free images of soap characters without attempting written permission.. Rain the One  BAM 04:01, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay so I've studied what you have contibuted today for Taylor - I'd suggest the best course of action would be removing most of the information. Those CBS references are fake, they do not exist. The journal cannot be used, as you cited a title and date - but what magazine is it from? Then You'll need to add pages numbers, issue number, any author of the article and the magazines publisher. IMDB is not reliable and that court case reference needs formatting. You've left a few things unsourced aswell, it isn't a good idea to write from a point of veiw and back it up with episode citations like CBS ones - that constitutes original research. Rain the One  BAM 04:32, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh my...Geez. I swear, yesterday those links were working perfectly (there were recaps on CBS.com for B&B for every week since 2001) but now i've checked they are dead links. :\ That's disappointing. Yes, don't worry i'll remove them. Sorry. God its so hard to find good sources... :\ SoapJar21 (talk) 04:37, 14 December 2011 (UTC) apologies
 * Hiya...just wondering. Is this a good enough source to clarify Sherilyn Wolter briefly took over the roll of Taylor? > http://www.capridge.com/wolter.htm. Thanks please let me know :)
 * Btw, i really didn't know those links didn't work. I wouldn't have added them...sorry. I've removed them now.
 * It says on the main page - "capridge.com is a fan-site" - so it cannot be considered a reliable source. If those CBS were working, there is a chance you'll find them in the Wayback Machine or over at WebCite. I don't think finding source is that hard, just keep at it, if possible be strict with yourself though like I am and go for the best reliable source available. Rain the One  BAM 05:00, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yea true. Ok. Its just a bit hard to find sources about dates and such things like that for me and also things from the 1990s. :). SoapJar21 (talk) 05:04, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I always found books focused on the show helpful with those sort of things, there are many books on UK/AU soaps, but dunno if B&B have any.. Rain the One  BAM 05:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh fantastic! I actually have two volume B&B Coffee table books with information about the actors, actresses etc. and the storylines. Would those be helpful ? SoapJar21 (talk) 06:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Not heard of that, just looked they did a special anniversary book in in the 90's. Got the isbn for the book? Should be okay if it is official. Rain the One  BAM 06:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No if memory serves me correctly this was published around 2007 ( i think ). btw Love the new logo thingy. SoapJar21 (talk) 06:58, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I am adding here, that once again, was not my intention to undo all the edits. The undo was meant for one edit, not everything. If I had known it undid everything, I would have gone back and undone by revert. I've apologize. And to refer to me as "MusicfreakWhatever" was completely rude and insulting. If you didn't know the end to my name, leave it at Musicfreak. I don't refer to you as "SoapJarWhatever". Musicfreak7676 (talk) 08:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Omg.. Completely rude? and insulting? How is that? I just didn't remember the end of your name and i was in a rush. And no it wasn't one edit, you removed a whole section i added, and other edits...That was 2 days ago so please just don't. I really don't mind being referred to as SoapJarWhatever. I genuinely apologize that you were insulted, however i didn't direct that name to you i was talking to someone else and your name wasn't registered in my head. I was somewhat upset because i tried to make a beginning on a page but you just went ahead and removed everything - i understand if remove a couple of lines or something but not everything thanks. And also, you called my edits quote "All these edits are un-needed and completely vandalistic" (and i don't even think vandalistic is a world) - you basically said i am unwanted here and labelled me as a vandal without a promising reason - and you don't think i was insulted or a little disheartened? thank you and good day. SoapJar21 (talk) 11:02, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * And you don't think if I had known I did every, single edit I would've gone back and undone it?? I'm not that type of bitchy person that does things to cause other people hurt. I think you and I need to keep our distance as it seems we're never going to get along ever. And I can't keep doing this every day, it's not healthy for me. And not as healthy for you. Musicfreak7676 (talk) 17:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Soapjar, I noticed you went ahead and added the capridge fansite anyway - so I removed it. Also, what is this "1.^ 'Beautiful' won't eschew issues. 22 March 2007."? It needs removing as it is a title and a date - but no magazine, page number, author or issue number - so it cannot be verified. Unless you can recitfy that. Rain the One  BAM 04:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks for that. No i didn't go ahead and add it - i asked you after adding it but forgot to remove the link. Thankyou. :) SoapJar21 (talk) 05:07, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh I see - were getting there aren't we? =] . I created a new H&A article today... I'm looking which one can be made next.. how sad am I. :p Rain the One  BAM 05:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Really? Which page? i would love to have a read of it :) Oh and btw i'm not going to try w/ the Taylor Hayes page it's a little drama and i'm not really needed ill just go to another page to start off with. Also you don't need to call me soapjar, just call me Arre - its what everyone calls me. Also i'm a little curious who is rm? i was skimming past your chat with musicfreak and i was wondering who that was. SoapJar21 (talk) 05:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC) :) SoapJar21 (talk) 05:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well the are like million soap articles out there begging for a clean up. lol .. and It was about a comment at User:Rm994 page but me and Musicfreak talked it over and it's sorted. The article that was moved today is Ric Dalby. I'll call you Arre then, not heard that name before, is that male or female? I have a bad habit of saying he when the user is a she and vice versa. Rain the One  BAM 05:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm female haha :) Arre is actually short for Arekea - my mum has Mexican descent. I saw on your page..do you like Kat DeLuna? Because she is one of my favorite artists! And i must say you are such a skilled editor! That page is really amazing one day and you create a masterpiece while there are pages that have been around for like 5 years and are really terrible. And Lady Gaga? you like her? omg i love her SO damn much she is my queen!. haha. SoapJar21 (talk) 05:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also what do you think of this as a source is it okay?: (for Amber Moore) http://www.cbs.com/daytime/specials/la_diaries/bios.shtml.
 * Hey if it's not a bother could you check out the Amber Moore page? I just changed the story line (there was just way to much detail before) what do you think of the page now? And i added a new section. I also did some stuff on Bridget Forrester & Whipple Jones III ...sorry for asking i just really value your opinion :)x SoapJar21 (talk) 06:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Is it possible for me to upload a screenshot (from B&B) i took myself? Just wondering. SoapJar21 (talk) 12:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

You can upload images, aslong as their isn't one present already.. I don't know her storylines, but they look better as there was too much info before. You need to fill references out better too - you know when you are editing - in the window there is a "B" - "I" - A picture, a pencil and a link picture, an "Advanced", "Special characters" "Help" and "Cite" - You need the Cite tool right at the end - click the Cite tab then "Templates" - it gives you the option of the tool helping create the citation for you. Btw - I do like GaGa, Kat DeLuna too, I'm a music obsessive - but I'd never really edit their articles... too much hassle even for me. :p Rain the One  BAM 14:20, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the advice :) Means a lot. Will do. Yea me too i love music :). By you saying "as long as there isn't one already" does this mean i should delete the image present? or Just remove it?... I'm not really good at uploading things, is there anyway you could do anything with these pics i uploaded to flikr? (if not doesn't matter) They are just a few screen shots (very recent from 2011) it would be great to see a more recent pic of Taylor and there is also one of Steffy. Sorry I'm hoping Im not a big bother to you.. :) SoapJar21 (talk) 14:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Btw the pictures there look to be not very good quality at first but when you click on them they are pretty decent. :) And If its okay, i have many more (actually, more then 100 but i will CERTAINLY never use them) i take lots of screenshots of Y&R, B&B, DOOL, GH and even EastEnders etc. :) Just my favorite soaps ever. SoapJar21 (talk) 14:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * oh and if preferable, this pic would be best: SoapJar21 (talk) 14:45, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They're okay. You'd probably have to talk it over on Taylor's talk page though - as the promotional image is in place. With someone already stating the image is okay, you'd have to get a consensus to change it I think. I added you to Flickr though. Rain the One  BAM 14:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh :S would they probably turn me down? ...Oh. I see. Its just the promotional image in place is great its just all of the pic's dimensions aren't really that good...you know what i mean?. SoapJar21 (talk) 14:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, so i have written on Musicfreak7676's talk page.. Im guessing they will turn me down...just in your personal opinion, do you think these pictures are worth changing (considering the current pictures are sort of out-dated by a little bit) as they are from October 2011? SoapJar21 (talk) 15:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It would depend on how good your proposal is. It could be argued that a screen shot is of quality and use to make profit from - when images are uploaded they are meant to be scaled down and the portion used be sufficient enough to identify the subject, but copies made from it will be of inferior quality due to the reduction in size - Taylor's imaged is scaled down, but it is good quality - so I guess it isn't right. The fair use rational is terrible though - see the poor reasoning for use and compare it with this - File:ChrissieWilliams.JPG.It would be better prosing the change on the article's talk page, as simply asking Musicfreak is not enough - as their may be other interested editors - who may even support your view.. Rain the One  BAM

15:03, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay...what do you mean by fair use rational (sorry never really heard of that term).... SoapJar21 (talk) 15:07, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * and to answer your new question - my personal preference is screenshots for soap opera characters - as cropped to their face is does the job of identifying the subject. We will use promotional images sometimes to focus on the characters appearance more - providing their is a hefty amount of real world information - supporting the character's appearance has real world significance - thus making the reason for using a promotional image stronger. However, having said that - they are both non free images and many editors have different opinions.


 * The fairuse rationale is the the part the uploader writes out, to attempt to justify the use of the image. These are usually unique to the subject they are being used for. It is basically the reason for using non free media - on the image I linked you, if you read that a few times, you'll get a good idea of what you need to say. Rain the One  BAM 15:11, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok I see. Taylor's talk page is kinda dead no one seems to go there so won't it be hard to get my point across? Or i shall just forget it... :\/ Also i saw that on Tay's talk page, musicfreak said that Michael Fairman Soaps (and sources from his website) shouldn't be used...Im really confused because last year around sometime a very experienced editor used links from there (and i asked them is the legit, and they told me it was) and i kind of took parts of Hunter's interviews from there (with the link) and added it to Character Creation. I'm really confused. SoapJar21 (talk) 15:17, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They said do not use it? They'll use dubious fansites but not a website with video inrterviews - which proves the content is not made up.v Carry on using it, you'll be fine. Aslong as the itnerviews are theirs. Rain the One  BAM 15:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes Michael Fairman is 100% legit...also how long do you think it will be until someone responds to my talk post on Taylor's talk page? Do you think it will more then a day or so? SoapJar21 (talk) 15:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I cannot answer that correctly... probably never, I've always found everyone to be pretty unhelpful - when you make the change though, they are more than happy to force their opinion. lol If no one opposes in a time frame of a week - then you can assert that your proposal has been endorsed. Rain the One  BAM 15:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay.. Is it possible for you to upload the picture now? And just see the reaction of others if it is changed? Sorry I tried to upload something the other day and I'm really terrible at it. :/ and you are a pro at uploading pics. Thankyou..... SoapJar21 (talk)
 * I will after a period of a week. Then you would have given ample time for editors to weigh in. I'm not willing to upload at this time though - it is not my style to prevoke a reaction - I'd much rather go by the book. Rain the One  BAM 16:05, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks..well i meant to upload it now and wait until a while to actually use it in a few days or a week to see what people think.. if thats possible. but dw sure thanks. SoapJar21 (talk) 16:10, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay Im going to stop replying now lol...Sorry i must be really annoying :p SoapJar21 (talk) 16:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC) I'd get myself in a spot of bother if I uploaded it and did not use it in an article. An active bot scans non-free media to check that they are used in articles and in the correct manner specified in the rationale. So that wouldn't work. I don't mind replying. Rain the One  BAM 16:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey can you upload this pic ? For the Marcus Forrester article SoapJar21 (talk) 16:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh dear... :p Go to WP:HELPDESK and tell them what you did and ask them if anyone can help you. I cannot help because it is a matter above me. You uploaded a non-free file to Wikimedia Commons - which is a place for FREE content only. You said that you owned the right to the image - when it was a non-free screen shot. So if you leave it unchecked, it's gonna look bad. Upload is where you should have gone to upload, and chosen the non-free screenshot option. Rain the One  BAM 18:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

License tagging for File:Rick2011.JPG
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Brooke Logan
Hello. I apologize if my edit summaries haven't been very helpful. If you look through the history of the article and read the talk page for it you'll see that it's been a very contentious article and a battle to try to keep it in line with Wikipedia standards. For instance, please see this edit from July. It was a long battle to get the article from that to where it is today. As a result any time someone comes along and expands the story summary section it looks like it's the first step in going from 500 words to 5,700 like in the version I linked to.

OK, so expanding to plot section from 500 to 700 words is not a big deal and if that's all you're doing then I won't get in the way. The bigger problem is that this is not what the article needs to make it better. From WP:SOAPS plot summary section "Plot summaries should be kept brief, only as an overview of the topic. The main purpose of Wikipedia articles is to provide encyclopedic information about a subject, such as its cultural impact, and not to provide a detailed and lengthy description of story events. The Wikipedia articles can then provide links to other websites which have more detailed storyline information." Right now that brief "controversy" section is the only really encyclopedic content in the article. What the article needs is critical analysis from people who write about such things, as in the cultural significance of the character, how people have responded to the character, the character's place in the soap opera genre, and other such contextual information. That's the stuff that makes for a good article, the penchant for fans to add every single plot point that's happened to a character during the last 20 years is not what we need (not to imply that this is what you're doing--but it is what happens in these soap opera articles).

As for the other additions you mention it's usually better to have your sources ready to begin with and add them while you add the content. Anything that is added and is unsourced can, and in many cases will, be deleted by other editors. If you want to write stuff out and then add the proper citations you can do this in your own sandbox (like User talk:SoapJar21/brookelogan) and then when it's ready copy the stuff over to the article. SQGibbon (talk) 08:02, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * True. Expanding that doesn't - however i did no harm by actually placing some valid storyline information there. I have been seeing this article before making this new account recently. It was SHOCKING. Yes - it has improved. But it is still terrible. Well, in my opinion before it was a fan page. But i just added 2 sections...i would like to know the harm in that. Ok. I will start a sandbox page with things that aren't good enough for the page right now. However, you still haven't explained why you have reverted the very short summary of her storylines so far, and if you don't i will expand it because you show no reason for it to be deleted. Also about the fans thing, i totally agree. I've just (if you see) gone through a few Character pages and removed the stupid subheadings. I have also re-wrote the storyline on some articles and added an area about Casting etc. It's not much but its a definite start. Also, i wouldn't refer to it as a battle unless there are persistent fancrufters who will revert edits. Also, its a little unfair for someone who does take passion (without adding every single episode into the article) to add content which in no way relates to that stupid over-detailed fancruft to be removed by someone whose edits don't really reflect on these types of articles if you know where i am coming from. I know i have it in me to improve this page (with sources etc) if others help, but i really couldn't be bothered to if these good faith edits are not valid at the end of the day. And by saying "Plot summaries must be kept brief" That actually means that PLOT (not the overall story line) must be kept short. This means a whole paragraph shouldn't focus on the whole year of 2011, but maybe a few lines of RELEVANT information. This comment you have said to me is invalid anyway. All i did was add story line (splitting it in 2 subheadings) and added a character creation part (which would have eventually been split up into sub-headings such as Casting, Reception etc.). I leave it there with the knowledge that i would come back to update this with sources (and having sources be on the talk page, i would have used them to come up with something), but you reverted my edits and i clearly said "This is just a blob of writing..i added some more storyline (but not over-detailed). Please do not revert this edits, they benefit the page" if you were bothered to read. I'm not a super fan who writes based on opinion such as "Brooke, being her usual selfish self etc" if you get what i mean and i just do things for the page. That was not appreciated; and your explanation of why the undo i don't really have my question answered. Thanks for the time. SoapJar21 (talk) 08:43, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also i will add, i've been doing some editing on the Taylor Hayes page (another character from the series) for about 10 days now. If you compare it to this revision from a few days ago, and compare it to know, you can see a clear difference. The "Character Creation" Subheading only had a few lines. And with help of another user (getting sources) it has a considerable amount of content now, which proves you should take steps even by making a subheading because content WILL be added to it. You should have considered this BEFORE reverting my edits. SoapJar21 (talk) 11:33, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Any time anyone adds unsourced content to the Brooke Logan article it raises red flags and you're going to get knee-jerk reactions. Sometimes that reaction isn't appropriate which appears to be so in your case and for that I apologize. You say you understand the problems that existed before and are going to add to the article in line with WP and WP:SOAPS guidelines then I will take you word for it and as I said I won't get in the way.  As for being a "battle" it most certainly was, in addition to the link above here's 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 just to point out a few examples.  And I've made several attempts to communicate with the editors involved here and here (several times in that last link) but to no avail.  It's frustrating when editors are in clear violation of not only WP guidelines but the guidelines set up by the people directly involved in the soap opera project and continue to make the same edits anyway.  But you say that you're going to improve the article in line with Wikipedia policy and guidelines so I'll step back and let you at it. SQGibbon (talk) 20:35, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Pictures
Hey do you ever pass by Docklands Studios Melbourne? If you do could you get an image of it. Also, isn't the Neighbours set nearby? Could you try and get some images if your are in the area? Rain the One  BAM 00:43, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure. But i have been to this Neighbours tour to Pine Oak Court and the set of the show, with Jackie Woodburne as guest. I'm such a big fan of the show. And i took loads of pictures of the set as well. It was amazing. I've passed by Docklands studio but i never took pictures. SoapJar21 (talk) 04:42, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm well jel! Would you be willing to upload any here? You can pop them onto your flickr account and I'll help you with the uploading. Have you forgiven me too? I was kinda scared you wouldn't reply tbh. Rain the One  BAM 05:47, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, i will try, not promising anything. It's just it was taken by my old Camera it will take a while to upload (a very long time). They r just pics of Charlies, Harold's, Lassiters etc, and the school and garage where Lucas and Chris are now, are those what you want? Yes, i will forgive you...if you tell me how to get a cool colored name like yours!!!! :D SoapJar21 (talk) 06:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What colours would you prefer, also what fonts do you like? Those pictures would be awesome, did they show you inside any sets too? Rain the One  BAM 06:18, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I Like Black & Orange ...or maybe even purple if thats available. What kinds of fonts are there? Is it unlimited? Or only a few types of fonts? No we didn't get shown the inside. But one really cool thing happened, a lady from one of the houses let us have a peak inside one of them (because she knew my Mum's sister) and they are NOTHING like the sets haha. SoapJar21 (talk) 06:32, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * It is like the H&A surf club, inside there it is just a few seats. I found this for taylor it has reception info - -

Comicsans, Tahoma and all the other common ones you get in MS Word I think.. How about -

Then which ever you like, you go to "My preferences" then down to "Signature" and copy the code into there and click save. Rain the One  BAM 07:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
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OOOOO Thankyouuu so much! I love it :) It's great! :) What do you mean? What's like the inside of a H&A Surf club?? Are you talking about the colours? :D hehe  Soap Jar 21  Talk 07:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Heyyy i was wondering...(Just for my own fun) There are fictional characters that aren't important enough to have their own page..If i just (for fun and writing) make mini profiles on a sandbox will someone ever delete them??  Soap Jar 21  Talk 07:15, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh you chose comicsans ms then =) and File:Summer Bay Surf Club Interior 2.jpg - Someone visited the set and took it. I'm going to bed now because it is nearly twenty past 7 AM... I need better sleeping patterns. How long do you think those pics will take, did long mean hours or days? :p They can't delete them btw, if they are in your sanbox, because that is your exclusive workzone. :) Rain the One  BAM 07:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh yes! it does look like that :) Well my camera's memory card isn't working on my computer so i'll need a plug. I'm not sure how long, but the last time i attempted it it took 16+ hours for it to connect, but that was for my old raggedy memory card. I'll try my best, if i can't ill try a friends camera they have the same pics:) Night night sleep tight  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 07:27, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey im really bad at knowing whether or not pages are qualified to be actual sources, can you tell me if any of these are?      Also is it possible to add this to Taylor's page  and write the results of the poll? Or Is Daytime Confidential a bad source?  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 10:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the link you sent me from the Gadsden 1991 newspaper, thanks. I added it to the page, can you see how it is? (is it too much?) :) Taylor Hayes Reception.


 * as you can see - my predictions are right. Look who is back at editing? :P
 * I don't think any of us can resist WP. lol It is okay, you can concentrate on some copy edits later - it is good that Taylor is getting so much real world info - it is really building up now so I removed the "In universe" tag from her article. :) FRom what you said about the set, does that mean you have also visited H&A? Rain the One  BAM 14:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Exactly! i just had hissy-fit and said i was leaving i can't resist. Okay thanks! Yes im proud...Are all the newspaper links i added good? Or not needed? I just really want there to be like 70% in universe stuff and maybe 30% storyline u know?:) No i haven't visited H&A. I wish i could! I like it more then Neighbours. TBH, i haven't watched It this year. Not enough drama for me - its getting sorta boring... And i don't understand why they are touching on Susan & Karl when they could possibly give Toadie & Sonja a baby or even add in a murder storyline. But H&A has me hooked! I can't wait for next season... (Charlie etc). Do you catch up with these soaps every ep? :)  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 14:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I watch all the UK and AU soaps really - I'm in funny places with H&A and Neighbours - in the last episode of H&A I'm on Casey trying to run away after the arson. I've haven't missed an episode yet though lol Neighbours is up and down, it has been better this year than it has since all my favourites left in 2008... Any newspaper profiling a character is a good source. The more the merrier because it proves the notability. Rain the One  BAM 15:21, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh....why don't you watch on YouTube? 2009 for me was my best year in Neighbours. I started watching in 2007 so i basically followed Bridget, Declan, Donna etc by 2010/2011 they are all gone. So i'm not happy lol. But i'm actually happen Susan Bower is gone. I hope they will change the storylines and add more drama. Wait so do you know what happens in Home and away though? I watch B&B, H&A, Y&R, DOOL, EastEnders (sometimes) and ShortLand street sometimes. And Neighbours.  Soap Jar 21 ' Talk To Me 15:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

From that list above I wouldn't use soapoperasource, tvmegasite and starpulse is iffy - Daytimeconfidential, about.com are okay - Soapsheknows is a fansite run in a different way (they were brought out by a reputable company), so the interviews are okay etc - dunno about Soapoperanetwork though because I've never come across it before. I know what is going to happen in H&A like Liam's accident, Jake shooting Charlie and stuff. Have you tried plugging your memory card in yet? I'm like a little child waiting for the ice cream van right now lolz. Rain the One  BAM 15:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Alright then thanks. Yes I've tried the memory card but sorry it doesn't work..I'll have to borrow my brother's cord. Ill try and get it done by tomorrow but if i can't i'm sorry :\. Just out of curiosity which pictures would you like to use and for what articles? Oh yea Jake shot Charlie it was terrible..I'm so scared for her. Did you see Sid beating up Stu? Stu like nearly died!!  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 15:52, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No I didn't know about that though. Stu is well fit, though I read he is gonna knock Sasha about. All of them, if you would upload them to Flickr, I guess I could chose then. I'd also show you how to upload your own free images to Wikipedia for future reference. Rain the One  BAM 15:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)4
 * Ohh you meant that whole abuse storyline? urgh yeah i hate Stu. And Sasha is annoying on the other hand because she keeps quiet. Yes i will upload them to flickr when i get the chance.  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Oops don't worry! Just made a small mistake lol :). Well i have pictures of Charlie from outside, Harold's from outside (like Straight view, don't curvy or wonky), Lassiters, i took pictures of every individual house on the street, the police station and thats it :) Do you think they will be useful? :)  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking of doing stuff on the Sharon Newman article...she's my fav soap character lol..the storyline is SO over detailed and long. But do you think people will react negatively?  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also if im trying to work on it closely for hours, how do i prevent other people (not for long just when im working on it) from going and changing all of my edits??  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll keep an eye on it, because any real world information being added is good, because it just is one massiver hog of storyline detail. If anyone disputes that then they are acting against policy. Anyone readding unsourced information, then warning would probably be the best option to give them. Rain the One  BAM 16:34, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yep thanks. I'm going to shorten the storyline and add more in universe info. Do you suggest removing the storyline first (and trimming it) or removing small parts bit by bit?  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:45, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You could do it as you go along, then you'll know which storylines are notable as you find sources. Rain the One  BAM 16:53, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know this character inside out :) i could write her whole character bio in 1 hour. All i want to do it make the storyline less over detailed and just add in universe info like Reception, Casting, Character Development etc. :)  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 17:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey..if your still on. I was wondering while im doing the story line, could you find a source about Sharon Case winning an emmy and her other nominations? :)  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 17:46, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look around in a bit. Rain the One  BAM 18:00, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey :) Are you awake? Anyway what do you think of the Sharon Newman article i started editing on? Think the stuff i added is any good? Hope you let me know. Thanks  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 20:54, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also if you do check it out, feel free to change any subheadings or remove sources if they aren't good...most of it is just news paper sources lol.  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 20:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Helloorr. It is safe to say that the article is miles better now thanks to your work. So much improvement in a short space of time. =]] Rain the One  BAM 02:29, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Thankyou! Your compliments mean everything.. :) What do you think could be added to it? Other then extra to the Reception area..  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 05:23, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I was also itching to ask.. but is it possible for me to upload pics just for me (screen-shots) and put them in a sandbox? Or do all pictures need to be used in a certain page one way or another?  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 08:17, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I only just noticed this message, you wouldn't be able to nopes. They only allow use of non freee images in articles currently. Thankyou for your christmas wishes, it was okay I guess. I was meaning to ask you about those picturesof Neighbours, did you get your card working? :) Rain  the 1  05:58, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you see this message? Rain  the 1  16:48, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry yes i did see it & ill have to wait until i go to the shops next because no the card doesn't work and i think i really need a cord got it all to work but ill definately post a link to you to flickr :) Hope you're not mad at me .  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 07:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Merry Christmas

 * Merry Christmas to you too! (belated) I was on a 4 day holiday lol.  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 05:25, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Info boxes
Hello there. So sorry for the inconvenience, but why do you keep changing the color of soap character's info boxes to lavender?? For the longest time it's always been darkred. Also, my edits are not vandalism. I edit the pages to the way they once were so they look like other pages. And what do you care how long my account has been in use? Okay, I put November 2010 when it should have been October 2010. So what? People forget sometimes. Are you the one who, all of a sudden, began altering the appearance of soap characters info boxes? I don't like the way you have been changing them. I like to keep things most up-to-date as possible, and I don't appreciate you undoing edits that I have worked so hard on. Thanks. Creativity97 (talk) 17:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

To help everything look the same, I have changed mostly all of the remaining darkred Y&R info boxes to lavender. Again, please do not undo edits I have worked so hard on. Thanks Creativity97 (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2011 (UTC)
 * They have not been darkred for the longest time. They had a gold color, then a grey color, and darkred for a few months (I was apart of the changing it to darkred). It's to match it's sister soap B&B because of crossovers. No offense but i wouldn't really call changing the inf box hard work. No, your contributions only span from this year. Info boxes don't really have anything to do with being Up-to-date. There i explained why i changed it. I don't like the way you have been doing this. Also the pages are really inconsistent (some info-boxes are gold, some are blue etc) so i just decided to make it all one color. You added 3 deadlinks so far.  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 05:28, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, you removed amounts of text (which i added) and it was sourced which isn't appreciated by myself. Soap pages are in really bad shape and I just want to make them better. Why do i care? Sorry it's because you seem the exact same as somebody else with the same views and form of speech, and it entered my mind you could have another account. Thankyou :) I really don't wanna argue.  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 05:32, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay - i just noticed you changing them all to lavender. And i can't explain how thankful i am to you. Sorry if you have been offended - i will no longer take away your edits. THANKYOU SO MUCH! :) x  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 05:35, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * You're welcome for the infoboxes. I will continue to change some that I see aren't lavender. I'm glad we could compromise. Creativity97 (talk) 21:49, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi there again, I was just wondering you're opinion on something. Do you think that all the current cast members of a soap should be listed in the "Starring" box on its page, or just the ones who appear in the opening credits? Creativity97 (talk) 23:56, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes I'm glad we are compromised. Well, i personally don't understand the current info-box which consists of secondary character's cast like Judith Chapman and Bryton and not main cast members like Sharon Case and Joshua Morrow aren't there for some reason. There are about 3 or 4 different Y&R openings - with different characters, each episode having one of them. I think either the full list should be written (it doesn't matter if it is long, because everyone should be included if they are important enough). Or, next to starring, there should be a link to this page here - because it is much easier. But to only have a few characters (e.g. Sharon has appeared in the series much more then Greg Rikaart, Judith Chapman & Bryton) that doesn't make sense. I will just post a simple link to the current cast list, if you don't like that feel free to do what you would like, i really don't mind :)  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 15:56, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, thanks for your opinion on that! It really helped me out. Creativity97 (talk) 16:11, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Also, about the Sharon & Victor proposal - i watched the 30th Dec. episode of Y&R - did Sharon accept? From what i interpreted, she just experimented by wearing the ring (Victor just told her to wear it out to see how she feels) sorry, How did you read that?  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:14, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
 * *Also, i hope you don't mind me asking, but would you help me bring the Victoria Newman article to a better standard? :) It's really unbalanced and needs lots of sources. And plus she is one of my favorite Soap Characters besides Sharon (on Y&R) and i just want to work on her article hehe.  Soap Jar 21  Talk To Me 16:20, 31 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi there, yes sure I will help you bring Victoria Newman to a better status. She is also one of my favorite characters! And about Victor's proposal to Sharon, I'm not entirely sure, but I think she accepted by wearing the ring, or maybe she hasn't officially said yes yet. We'll have to wait and see what happens next week! Let me know. Creativity97 (talk) 18:31, 31 December 2011 (UTC)